Here is an update on what SMC has in store as far as racing Lipos.


In the last few months there has been a breakthrough with one of the chemicals used in making Lipos. This means higher C rates are now possible. This material has been around for 6 months or so but wasn't stable. Just recently it has become stable.

Our 28C packs have been leading the way for the past 10 month and we could of released improvements earlier but we didn't feel it was needed as no others had caught up to our packs. With this new material we feel it's now the time to release our next generation of racing Lipos as we have seen some of our competitors have caught up and even passed our 10 month old 28C packs.

The reason why the new improved packs haven't been released yet is that our supplier is working on another potential improvement that would be beneficial to performance. This improvement is currently being tested for reliability and stability. Testing should conclude in a few days which will allow us to make a final decision on the new packs we will release. It would of not made since to rush and release new packs only to have another improvement 1 month later.

Since TP has released there new 40C/5000 we decided to ask our supplier to send us some 40C packs for testing. In the past six months we have gotten some 33 and 35C samples and decided not to release them. For those who gave me some grief on the False Lipo advertising thread that I started saying we were bashing others because we didn't have access to higher C rate packs were wrong. If you read some of my posts I said that we weren't going to release 35C packs as when I did these posts I was well aware that 40C+ was possible and we could release such a pack. So to all the guys who doubted me please read this post and understand that we do have access to the latest and greatest and we have full confidence that we will remain the leader in high performance Lipos.

So we did receive 5 packs to test today. Four packs are from our supplier using the new chemical to build some 40C/2S2P packs. The other pack is a brand new TP40C/5000/2S2P pack.

Normally I wouldn't post numbers from our competitors due to differences in testing setup , temperature and other factors that may affect the packs. Recently TP posted numbers from our packs on there thread so I thought if it's o.k. for them to post our numbers it would be o.k. for me to post our numbers/results. It's pretty funny that they get lower numbers on our packs and I'm getting lower numbers than what they claim on there pack.

All packs were charged at 2C on a Hyperion Duo Balance charger. Packs discharged on a T35GFX/Lipo at 35 amps. Voltage sensing leads attached on the 12 gauge wires were the female Deans is soldered. All packs were cyled once as they were cool when delivered by UPS. Packs were then cycled an hour after the 1st cycle. Pack and room temp was 72 degrees. The numbers were taken down after the second cycle.

TP40C: 514 - 7.40 -6.5

SMC40C: #1 505 - 7.43 - 5.7

#2 507 - 7.45 - 5.1

#3 512 - 7.45 - 5.5

#4 510 - 7.44 - 5.5


In a few days I will have info on the newest improvement if it's possible. If not we release new packs based on the packs above.

Thought these packs were to remain the same for the next 2 years. This is going to turn into the same mess we had with nimh batteries with new changes every six months. At least you only waited six months to show all the racers your true colors!

Cliff,
The 3200 is staying the same for next 2 years. This is a new 40C pack for the open battery classes, not to replace the 3200.

Thought these packs were to remain the same for the next 2 years. This is going to turn into the same mess we had with nimh batteries with new changes every six months. At least you only waited six months to show all the racers your true colors!


This year was a special year for Lipo approval as ROAR kept it open until the end of the year. As this was the first year for Lipo in racing. Next year expect to see new packs every 6 months if material/technological breakthroughs are possible.

For those who don't want to worry about this you should consider racing in the 3200 spec class. SMC is doing everything we can to support this class.

Thank you! I for one appreciate the effort for the spec 3200 battery.

Glad to help as I started SMC as a racer for racers. My goal has never changed. We have a unique thing going on with our supplier as we call the shots. With the sub-c suppliers we were at there mercy.

viva la smc! one pack every 6 months...i'm down with lipo!

Danny How Soon Will It Be Available?

How bout a 40c 3200?

Will there be a way to visually distinquish the 40c 3200 from the 28c 3200?

We will be releasing 3 new packs.

1 - Around 5000 with 40C or more depending on final test results. Slightly longer case to maximize cell size. Case will be black.

2- 3200 with 40C or more depeding on test results in the same current case but it will be black.

3 - Around 4400 with 40C or more samke as above. In a new EFRA size case with inboard connectors.

1 - Around 5000 with 40C or more depending on final test results. Slightly longer case to maximize cell size. Case will be black.



Any idea on how much longer compared to the current 5000?

Any idea on how much longer compared to the current 5000?


The difference will be .4mm higher , .4mm wider and 3mm longer.

when will the 5000 packs be available whats the price gonna be on them?how much are they going to weigh?

Sort of the same question....

What sort of time frame are you thinking for release of the 3200's, and if this happens before snowbirds, will the ROAR approval be finished by then?

Sort of the same question....

What sort of time frame are you thinking for release of the 3200's, and if this happens before snowbirds, will the ROAR approval be finished by then?

We will submit our new packs to ROAR before the deadline. So our packs will be legal for Snowbirds, Release date will be the middle to end of January.

As far as weight, specific capacity and C rate that remains to be determined.

danny what dose the higher C number do to help us racer i am new to lipo
thanks

So the mass of BRL/Dirt Oval 3200's that were in-line with the rest of the 3200's that were legal and comparable will be old news with the ROAR approval of this new cell just in time for the Snowbirds?
Imagine that.

dk

dk YGPM

dk YGPM
I got it.
Amazing, huh?

Yup....amazing...See ya soon!

Danny, Will you be making a 3.7 volt version of the 40C lipo?

So the mass of BRL/Dirt Oval 3200's that were in-line with the rest of the 3200's that were legal and comparable will be old news with the ROAR approval of this new cell just in time for the Snowbirds?
Imagine that.

dk


We have no plans on changing the 3200/28C pack as this is being used as a spec pack. I have a thread about this in general oval section.

We will realease a new 3200 for the open 3200 class.

Danny, Will you be making a 3.7 volt version of the 40C lipo?

The single cell Lipo is a bit complicated as were the only ones to have one and I know our competitors will be releasing single cell packs.

The biggest problem is that there is no case size rules as this is not a ROAR class. We spent allot of time/money to get the case to be right for 12th scale onroad cars. The packs fit very well in these cars. There is already extra room inside our case to increase capacity and C rate. The reason why we went with 4000/25C is to try to keep the price similar to a 4 cell sub-c pack and have the 12th scale mod guys use slower motors to make time as speeds at the moment are out of control. If our competitors take are case size and make it slightly bigger they will be able to put more in than what we can if need be. For oval a company could easily make a pack the size of a current 2S pack and have a much higher capacity like 10 000 mAH. Typically the bigger the cell the bigger the price and better the power so this needs to be considered.

This is why I offered to make our 4000/25C/3.7V pack a spec pack like our 3200/28C pack. This would give stability to the racers who want a good pack at a fair price that will remain the same for atleast 2 years and hopefully more.

Blueline...

This is no different than the situation with sub C's for many years. The issue here is the technology is newer and changes more frequently. Danny is offering up new packs to those who can race them. If your stuck running BRL, the packs are still available and unchanged from what you already have.

Why would he sit on a new product when all his competitors are working on better things? that would be shooting himself in the foot. The fact he is offering another 3200 option vs. discontinuing the old pack says alot.

danny what dose the higher C number do to help us racer i am new to lipo
thanks

Typically higher C rate means the packs can be discharged at higher constant current. The higher current capabilaties isn't really useful in RC car racing as were not pulling allot of amps. That being said a higher C rate pack will tend to not drop off as much under load which helps keep the voltage higher. The burst power will also be better which means the pack will deliver it's energy a bit faster. So a higher C rate pack should be a bit better in theory. On the track will it be much better that needs to be determined.

Thanks Casper you nailed it I couldn't of said it any better. We have no plans on changing the 3200/28C so we will now have to stock two 3200s but we have no issues with that. Our current 5000/28C will be phased out by the new 40C+ pack as we will be able to keep the price very similar to the current pack.

These new packs is why I started this thread http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=237070 a few weeks ago as I knew we would be releasing new packs.

We have no plans on changing the 3200/28C so we will now have to stock two 3200s but we have no issues with that.

The problem with this is...in many places guys, especially those who don't follow EVERY step of racing on the internet won't know the difference and some will end up with the wrong battery, and there will be confusion over which one is legal where.

You talk alot about ROAR and what is ROAR legal, yet to my knowledge there are NO ROAR Spec 3200 rules (There are also NO Roar rules pertaining to LIPO for Oval Racing to my knowledge) ALL Lipo classes that have been run at ROAR events have been "Special" OPTION classes.

ROAR had said repetedly they can't make rules to limit products or manufactures, so in all reality there is NOTHING about the 3200 lipo related to ROAR rules since they allow the use of a much larger battery.

ONLY groups like ours, and the other tracks and clubs that adapted the B/L and LIPO classes have our own rules. The places that adapted the SMC3200 did it out of loyalty and hope that SMC would stick with their word of NOT building a NEWER BETTER UPGRADED pack. While you say you'll still offer the 28c pack, the simple fact that you'll also offer a 40c pack will KILL the spirit of the lower mAh Spec....cause RACERS will do what they do -- fight for the right to use the BIGGER/BETTER product.

You may still OFFER the lower "c" rated pack, but if a LHS doesn't carry it, and choses to carry the NEW pack that will ultimately dictate what packs are sold and raced in some areas...

I think we've all seen this story before. The battery companies were coming out with a bigger better pack every month or so and up went the prices. I don't think anyone really thought that this wouldn't happen with LiPo too. The LiPo peoiple are going to end up controlling this hobby the same as they did with the pack of the month sub-c. Nobody is going to want to buy a pack rated at 28c when they know that there is a 40c pack out there. Sales will drop on the lesser pack and we'll be forced to use the higher capacity batteries. Wait and see!

SWTOUR stop and read what you posted and ask yourself what SMC should do when the rules for the Largest race of the year are any roar 3200 for the 21.5 class. The competition will have a better pack are you telling me they should stand on some moral ground and not offer a better more competitive pack so they have a chance to compete?

It isn't up to MFG to choose a spec pack for us, they make what will sell and compete at the highest level. Danny has gone the extra mile and offered to keep a spec pack if groups, clubs and big races choose to use it. He is doing everythiong he can from his side of things to help oval racing but he can't force promoters to choose his product so he must compete for the sales with performance when the need arises.

Good job Danny!!! you can't make everyone happy but you are trying and that is all you can do!

"Stuck" running the BRL would be a questionable choice in wording. I like that Sonny worked with Danny to get a solid rules base in place for a designated time frame....no surprises up here. I know all about the promises of not touching the current 3200...I'm all over that. What I'm saying is...the current crop of 3200's perform similarly and racers nationwide have accepted this "type" of rules package in an effort to not be controlled by the new advancements. I'm guessing that given Danny's "progress" on the 40c 5000 mah cell in response to the perceived success of the Thunder Power release, that SMC isn't the only one trying to rush something to approval before the deadline. He must sense that TP and others have something cooking in the 3200 range as well.
I'm not dumb. I know every manufacturer wants to get all they can get and hates to be outperformed. That said, how long until the racer says enough is enough? Take a look over on RCTech where they're trying to figure out why attendance is down and the racers have disappeared.
Maybe I'm directing my frustrations in the wrong direction. Maybe I should be asking how a manufacturer can discover new technology AND put a product together AND get it to ROAR within 3 weeks to get approval. Maybe I should be questioning how ROAR can test and approve 3-4 new cells from 3-4 different manufacturers in a 3 week span. Maybe I should be upset that Mike went with ROAR approval in his rules description creating confusion and indecision to all the guys who've already dropped their coin in preparation for this race.
People ask how this is different from the sub-c days. The difference is that we saw the pitfalls of the "latest, greatest" syndrome and what it did. We now have hindsight to not fall into that trap again.
dk
Blueline...

This is no different than the situation with sub C's for many years. The issue here is the technology is newer and changes more frequently. Danny is offering up new packs to those who can race them. If your stuck running BRL, the packs are still available and unchanged from what you already have.

Why would he sit on a new product when all his competitors are working on better things? that would be shooting himself in the foot. The fact he is offering another 3200 option vs. discontinuing the old pack says alot.

lol, i noticed the stuck running BRL wording too! Stuck running the biggest most competitve oval series in the country! :thumbsup:

Take a look at his comments at: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=2555703&postcount=4

SWTOUR stop and read what you posted and ask yourself what SMC should do when the rules for the Largest race of the year are any roar 3200 for the 21.5 class. The competition will have a better pack are you telling me they should stand on some moral ground and not offer a better more competitive pack so they have a chance to compete?


Brian

Moreso than that, I think the Largest race of the year since it doesn't use ROAR RULES, and isn't ROAR Sanctioned, should not have the word ROAR anywhere in their class structure.

Aside from that - that would allow it to have an OPEN rule for their 3200 batteries on their own, and would not have to rely on waiting for what ROAR will have approved, nor would they be forced to allow 11th hour products to be legalized. They create their OWN rules for everything else, and pick and choose what NATIONAL guidelines they want to follow...why should batteries be any different?

I have NO issue w/ Danny/SMC on this one, other than the confusion that will be created by having 2 versions of the 3200 battery.

Exact same story at the paved Nats, new battery approved within days of dead line and instantly every racer had to pony up for 2 or 3 new sticks or stay home.
Tom

Brian

Moreso than that, I think the Largest race of the year since it doesn't use ROAR RULES, and isn't ROAR Sanctioned, should not have the word ROAR anywhere in their class structure.

Aside from that - that would allow it to have an OPEN rule for their 3200 batteries on their own, and would not have to rely on waiting for what ROAR will have approved, nor would they be forced to allow 11th hour products to be legalized. They create their OWN rules for everything else, and pick and choose what NATIONAL guidelines they want to follow...why should batteries be any different?

I have NO issue w/ Danny/SMC on this one, other than the confusion that will be created by having 2 versions of the 3200 battery.

The problem with this is...in many places guys, especially those who don't follow EVERY step of racing on the internet won't know the difference and some will end up with the wrong battery, and there will be confusion over which one is legal where.

You talk alot about ROAR and what is ROAR legal, yet to my knowledge there are NO ROAR Spec 3200 rules (There are also NO Roar rules pertaining to LIPO for Oval Racing to my knowledge) ALL Lipo classes that have been run at ROAR events have been "Special" OPTION classes.

ROAR had said repetedly they can't make rules to limit products or manufactures, so in all reality there is NOTHING about the 3200 lipo related to ROAR rules since they allow the use of a much larger battery.

ONLY groups like ours, and the other tracks and clubs that adapted the B/L and LIPO classes have our own rules. The places that adapted the SMC3200 did it out of loyalty and hope that SMC would stick with their word of NOT building a NEWER BETTER UPGRADED pack. While you say you'll still offer the 28c pack, the simple fact that you'll also offer a 40c pack will KILL the spirit of the lower mAh Spec....cause RACERS will do what they do -- fight for the right to use the BIGGER/BETTER product.

You may still OFFER the lower "c" rated pack, but if a LHS doesn't carry it, and choses to carry the NEW pack that will ultimately dictate what packs are sold and raced in some areas...

Who is this post directed at cause this thread says "SMC race lipo info".

Maybe you meant this as just some insight you wanted to share but it sure looks like a statement that you think SMC should have done something other than what they are doing?

Maybe this whole post belongs on another thread and that is why I mistook it's meaning.

Exact same story at the paved Nats, new battery approved within days of dead line and instantly every racer had to pony up for 2 or 3 new sticks or stay home.
Tom

true!

maybe complaining to the rule maker and not the rule follower would be a better way to get something done.

Oval Masters used a set date and MAH that you could use from the roar approval sheet. this worked great!:thumbsup:

lol, i noticed the stuck running BRL wording too! Stuck running the biggest most competitve oval series in the country! :thumbsup:

Stuck in the sense that you have to run what the rule specifically states. You have to run a 28c 3200 pack, so even if something better comes out, your committed to running that pack.

BRL is non exsistant around here so what that series does is of no bearing on anything that happens around here.

Brian,

I posted it here (maybe it belonged in the 3200 28c lipo thread) but THERE WILL BE CONFUSION with this pack.

Some will knee jerk react because it's there, others will make the comments we've already seen being made.

The problem is there is NO standard, so while 3 tracks may use the original 28c as their SPEC pack, others will use the 40c as theirs, and once again division amongst the OVAL group (which is really the ONLY Place this matters, cause all other forms of racing seem to think they need a Bazillion mAh's of battery to run out 1500 of them.)

Oval Masters used a set date and MAH that you could use from the roar approval sheet. this worked great!


Another example of a NON-ROAR race basing their rules on ROARs "non-existant" OVAL rules.

so maybe...MORE oval racers need to join, support, help ROAR get their standards in place...and take hold of this technology and THIER RACING...and actually make MORE events ROAR sanctioned so the RULES will be clearer.

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1973_popcorn.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1973_popcorn.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)

HAHAHAHA

In all honesty, it should be pretty simple to understand. Your track or your series rules state the specific battery you can use, ie SMC 3200... Update your rules to state the specific pack. If your 28c only, simple enough. If your rules state any ROAR approved pack 3200 or less etc... there should be nothing lost in translation there. When your track or series updates it's rules for the following season, its up to them what pack to choose, nobody is forcing them to change the battery rule. The fact that the 28c pack will still be available, and chances are "cheaper" once the new pack is released, means that option is not only still there, but possibly more financially viable to keep that rule in place. Not to mention used packs will be available a dime a dozen from the guys who don't have a c rating limit in the rules.

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1973_popcorn.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)


something to wash it down!
http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1969.gif

lol this is beautiful. since Roar deceided to allow open season for 2008 lipos, manufactors have been taking full advantage of that. I can't blame them.

and since the Snowbirds has deceided to follow roar rules for the lipo classes. what we have is a problem. smc is going to get a newer better 3200 approved before the deadline and in a genuis move will have it available just days before the race. lol just like with the roar nats. awesome. glad I am not running 21.5


Maybe mike will make a rule alteration. because what I think DK's complaint is, is that he feels that in order to compete he will have to have this new battery. and since the series he runs in has a spec pack. this new pack will be a $100.00 paper weight for him and others after the birds.

I wouldn't be so sure it'll just be a new 3200 that you'll need to keep up.....
But yes Pull...you get it.
dk

I think we've all seen this story before. The battery companies were coming out with a bigger better pack every month or so and up went the prices. I don't think anyone really thought that this wouldn't happen with LiPo too. The LiPo peoiple are going to end up controlling this hobby the same as they did with the pack of the month sub-c. Nobody is going to want to buy a pack rated at 28c when they know that there is a 40c pack out there. Sales will drop on the lesser pack and we'll be forced to use the higher capacity batteries. Wait and see!


I understand what your saying but most of it's based on what happened with sub-c cells manufacturers and I can't speak for my competitors but I do know SMC has great control over our Lipo supplier as this is an exclusive agreement/partnership and they listen to what we say. We never had this with sub-c companies even though we were there largest customer of high end loose cells. We were forced to buy what they wanted us to buy and at the price they wanted.

Our 3200/28C pack was a bit hard to get at first as we had no idea it wouold become that popular. When Sonny told us it would be the BRL spec pack we immediatley increased our orders and supply has been pretty good. We have no deisre to not provide this pack anymore. So this pack will continue to be available.

As far as pricing goes Lipos will stay under control as there is allot more competition. When one sub-c cell was the hot cell the manufacturer of that cell could increase the price and we had no choice.

Exact same story at the paved Nats, new battery approved within days of dead line and instantly every racer had to pony up for 2 or 3 new sticks or stay home.
Tom


What you guys don't understand about this year being special due to it being the first year Lipos are used in racing. In 2009 you can expect to buy a new pack once every 6 month. When sub-c packs were being used you had to buy 2 new packs at every major race.

There will never be a prefect rule that will please everyone.

For 10 months we had some of the best performing packs and it took that long to get something better. So I don't think it's as bad as you guys make it out to be. As far as timing I agree it's shitty but when ROAR allows new packs every 6 months the timing will be shitty for other races as well.

SMC has always been about supplying the best possible performning cells/packs and we will not change our goal but we do have something great that allows us to offer something back to those who want it. Bottom line if your the type of racer who doesn't want to buy new packs every 6 months then ask your track to make a spec pack class.

I sure hope you guys are complaining to our competitors that are trying to release better packs than ours. Based on the ROAR list there has been plenty of packs released after our 28C packs so please email these companies telling them there screwing up RC car racing as it gets a bit old hearing how were screwing things up. Maybe that is why many of our competitors don't hang out as much on message boards.

There will never be a prefect rule that will please everyone.

For 10 months we had some of the best performing packs and it took that long to get something better. So I don't think it's as bad as you guys make it out to be. As far as timing I agree it's shitty but when ROAR allows new packs every 6 months the timing will be shitty for other races as well.

SMC has always been about supplying the best possible performning cells/packs and we will not change our goal but we do have something great that allows us to offer something back to those who want it. Bottom line if your the type of racer who doesn't want to buy new packs every 6 months then ask your track to make a spec pack class.

I sure hope you guys are complaining to our competitors that are trying to release better packs than ours. Based on the ROAR list there has been plenty of packs released after our 28C packs so please email these companies telling them there screwing up RC car racing as it gets a bit old hearing how were screwing things up. Maybe that is why many of our competitors don't hang out as much on message boards.


Danny,

You just keep making big sticks and we will keep buying them.. The complaining on here is getting to be more the rule rather than the exception! And again thank you for helping me to correct my problem last week,


Mike Rutherford
Hitmanmotorsports