For the heck of it today, I pulled some arms from the JL t-jets I had sitting in my box and popped them into one of my better fray cars.

On my track, my best frays will run about a 5.1-2 race lap. Without doing anything to the JL arm (i.e. truing, balancing, etc) I put them in one at a time and was able to pull laps slightly faster than with the Aurora arms. This makes sense as the arms ohm at consistently for me at 14.6-14.8 per pole versus 16.0+ for the originals. Obviously if I were to go back and balance and work the JL arms up it would be even better, I would guess I would be running a 4.9-5.0 lap which seems to be where the best cars run at the fray in comparison with my cars.

The other interesting observation is that all 4 of the JL arms that I randomly grabbed were about the same in my fray car.... if you have ever worked on a t-jet you know that each aurora arm is a special little gem unto itself, some being nice, others being piles, with that 1 in 25 or more being labeled as "exceptional" in both speed and drivability.

My question is... when are the rule makers at major events going to start allowing the JL/AW arms to be run in competition?

They are high in availability, and seem to be a LOT closer across the board in terms of quality. I realize that the rules would have to be changed for the ohmage across the poles, but it really doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.

I'd also not like to hear the excuse that these cars are t-jets and as such anything made by JL/AW does not make it as such. The fact that we run them already with JL magnets, independent front ends, CNC gears, and sili-sponge rears makes it it's own breed of car and nothing close to a t-jet anymore.

It would probably draw in a ton more racers, as finding a decent arm would be as easy as popping open a JL/AW versus scanning hundreds of aurora arms to do the same thing. It would be nice to make this car class about driving versus building and who has the most old parts at their side.

There is still plenty of work to be done on prepping a fray car as is obvious by the volume of notes by Tim Leppert in the fray tuning thread (which is awesome by the way Tim), it would be nice if one could use a part and know it's going to keep them close and that the actual driving part is going to carry them the rest of the way.

Just curious as to what other folks think.

especially in that JL arms gave you reproducible results. try balancing a couple and do more testing!

btw, i just noticed your an "elder statesman"

boy, i am having trouble getting my head around THAT!:wave:

A few weeks ago we raced Ultra-G T-Jets for the first time. After everyone left (all 5 of us lol) I noticed something. The lap times and totals were as good or better than extremely good fray cars driven by some very fomidable racers on the same track.



A $15 pancake car. Some might say a crappy little $15 pancake car





....with a big ole' stock body and a pair of slip-ons






....that still looks like a real car






....can hang with or beat a $100+ Fray T-Jet.








Does anyone really wonder why JL/AW arms aren't allowed?

Ultra-G T-Jets

I think those cars have a great $/fun factor, but that big 'ol honking traction magnet makes it drive like a magnet car, not a fray car.

thats not a bad thing, i like magnet cars! but i think you lap times were more a function of the traction magnet, not the arm.

I'd have to agree with Mike there Swamper, that traction magnet will stick anything to the track and have an obvious advantage, like any car with traction magnets would. This is more about the arms and not at all about the magnets.

I have to disagree with both, the downforce created by that one little dot is minimal, definitely not on par with the usual RS neo-dot. In fact I think it may hurt handling, it's only advantage being that it helps a bit to keep the front planted.

I'd venture to say that a Fray car still has way better handling characteristics by far, but lacks the speed delivered by the better arm and the punch from the gearing.

And while I haven't tried it, I'd bet that without the traction mag and with some shoe restriction, the Ultra G would still whoop butt, maybe even by a larger margin.

I find it funny, because racing them they almost feel the same.

i admit i havent run these much. i did get really into the JLTO when they first came out, and added fray style fronts and fray style rear axles to several dozen JLTO.

but i much preferred the different gearing in a fray car/stock tjet to the TO gearing. but thats just me, and others here have expressed a preference for TO gearing.

id like to see fray style rules opened up to include the repop chassis and arms.

Wow... the downforce by that little dot makes a huge difference....

The gearing on any Ultra-G or JL/AW t-jet is also different, not making the comparison relevant at all, hence me making this post about the arm and the arm only.

We run 2 t-jet classes at my basement raceway 1 being a stock t-jet with skinny slip-ons and aurora chassis only and another with open t-iet chassis with wizzard fronts and rutherford 3.60 rears the jl/aw cars in this form are a blast and cheap.

The Fray race is a once a year, one shot gig run by some very dedicated folks who decide all the rules and formats for their one race. They've given us an excellent example, or reference implementation, of a class of racing and type of car that is challenging to build and fun to drive. But the Fray is their gig. What the huge majority of people who like to race TJets do with their basement, local, regional, and national level TJet racing is completely independent of the Fray Race. Yeah, it takes a little more effort to develop your own set of rules instead of just saying "just do what they do" but that's okay when doing so is in the best interest of your basement, local, regional, and national racers. Whatever level you play at, do so in a way that makes the most sense for the participants. If using JL/AW parts is endorsed by the membership, just do it.

The Ultra-G cost-vs-performance comparison is not unique to TJets. The same situation exists at the superstock level of magnet car racing. When you look at the cost-vs-performance ratio of a Tyco X2 with Phase IIs, the Storm Extreme, and the new line of BSRT cars with molded polymer magnets against superstocks you have to wonder why we spend so much money and time building, feeding, and caring for our superstock programs. In cost-vs-performance terms the superstocks don't look so super. However, there's always something to be said for classes that really challenge the builders, and superstocks and modded TJets certainly do that. The down side of any class that really challenges builders is the massive proliferation of parts, and this tends to be where the cost explosion occurs. The ingenuity of the parts suppliers is certainly commendable, but when a TJet front end kit rings out at $20, CNC gears for $40, balanced freak stock arm for $50-$80, $15 bodies, etc., the cost-vs-performance deficit starts to feel embarrassingly high and you have to question why you're not just neo'ing your way to the promised land of cheap performance.

My question is... when are the rule makers at major events going to start allowing the JL/AW arms to be run in competition?

They are high in availability, and seem to be a LOT closer across the board in terms of quality. I realize that the rules would have to be changed for the ohmage across the poles, but it really doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.

I'd also not like to hear the excuse that these cars are t-jets and as such anything made by JL/AW does not make it as such. The fact that we run them already with JL magnets, independent front ends, CNC gears, and sili-sponge rears makes it it's own breed of car and nothing close to a t-jet anymore.

It would probably draw in a ton more racers, as finding a decent arm would be as easy as popping open a JL/AW versus scanning hundreds of aurora arms to do the same thing. It would be nice to make this car class about driving versus building and who has the most old parts at their side.

There is still plenty of work to be done on prepping a fray car as is obvious by the volume of notes by Tim Leppert in the fray tuning thread (which is awesome by the way Tim), it would be nice if one could use a part and know it's going to keep them close and that the actual driving part is going to carry them the rest of the way.

Just curious as to what other folks think.

I've been riding this horse for years dude. With the demise of the Fray and the fact that it will soon be a west coast only race, I think the powers will soon discover this overlooked fact: You can't find good arms anymore.:wave:

You have some good points AFXToo, I totally see them. I think that is why we are seeing some of this playing out in the newer 901, 905, and 905-EX from BSRT. It's cheap speed and nice to spend $40 versus $110 and get very similar performance.

As for the fray cars, or VHORs, or whatever format people are calling them, I enjoy the style of the car and the way they run. And certainly dropping $20 on a front end and $30 on the gears and another $25 on a body is nutty, but I enjoy driving them. And if I have tpo pay $30 for a set of gears that I know are perfect versus digging through hundreds of gears and measuring each one to see how they fit, it is worth it to me, crazy as that may seem to some.

The most frustrating part is to spend that and still get my kicked because my arm is no good. If I am going to get whipped, i'd like to know I got outdriven and not just pasted by someone with 100 arms to go through.

Thanks for piping in Tim, nice to know I'm not the only one who feels that way... Any chance any of the other big races doing a rules change for these cars and the arms, ie. the QCQ or other East Coast races?

They allow JL/AW magnets already? And I guess you had to sand them to fit???? But cheap can find anywhere motors No? Goes back to running the rules of that group,one of the biggest problems in HO scale racing.........RULES!!!!!!! we are not as tight as the 1/24th guy's and never will be. Ho is all over the place as far as Rules and Race tracks in basements and garages and Groups running what suits there needs and racers budgets.

They allow JL/AW magnets already? And I guess you had to sand them to fit???? But cheap can find anywhere motors No? Goes back to running the rules of that group,one of the biggest problems in HO scale racing.........RULES!!!!!!! we are not as tight as the 1/24th guy's and never will be. Ho is all over the place as far as Rules and Race tracks in basements and garages and Groups running what suits there needs and racers budgets.

Heh, yep, I believe they make you use the JL magnets as they are all very even. A good concept, but they missed the larger disparity in the arms. I forgot to mention that I also for the heck of it slapped in 4 different stock aurora arms and all 4 of them were total pigs, being more than a second off my best times.

Strange that you would use better magnets to keep things even, but you won't allow arms that seem to be quite a bit more even as well. :confused:

Thanks for piping in Tim, nice to know I'm not the only one who feels that way... Any chance any of the other big races doing a rules change for these cars and the arms, ie. the QCQ or other East Coast races?

I see a few things popping out there.

The QCQ has posted rules that allow a plastic idler gear, if you run it with a stock set. (I have wanted this for years) This puts the guys that want to run stock stuff in the game. (Wizzard was the driving force behind this idea)

The key is to support the guys who run the rules that make sense.

Also, get involved!
Let these guys know what they're doing wrong and what they're doing right. They like both.
What are the deal brakers and what you can live with.
Also, Try running the formats they run out in the hinterlands. You would be surprised how different it is running a dash style format, than running time/distance.
This will give you insight into the nuances(sp) into settup and racing.

I personally LOVE the dash style format.

Please explain the dash format

Tim ,
i whole heartily agree with what you say about supporting the guys who make and run rules that make sense . Trouble seems to be finding those folks willing to step away from the Fray as it were. I commend a change to the plastic idler as a step in the right direction but it's only the 1st one in what should be many more. The escalation of costs has gotten out of hand so some groups like TRACK have started a C.A.R. class ( cheap assed racin ) to combat rising costs and revert towards a more relaxed retro style of racing. Cost as we all know is one reason why we lose racers as they feel priced out of the podium or even just the fun of being in the hunt . Personally speaking i can't stand the idea of $30 gear sets , $15-20 bodies , $12-15 sili sponge tires , and $15-20 fronts etc etc etc ! That's ridiculous prices as i have either made or sold or priced each of these items. Gear sets = $8-9 bulk wholesale x 2 $16-18 retail . Sponge tires $3-3.50 wholesale x2 = $6-7 retail , fronts $3-3.50 Wholesale = $6-7 retail , resin bodies never ever should cost double digits when mass popped ! Crazy to say this but i have been told before that i sold some items way too cheap and i was HURTING the hobby by doing so ! What ? True enough it was said by a friend in the business then another in the business agreed. Sooo.... i dropped selling a couple of items and raised my pricing a tad to apieze them. I have been re-thinking those decisions lately and just may drop things to a more reasonable level to my standards . Damm it i jumped on my soap box again. Sorry about this all but it just burns me more and more. The hobby is supposed to be fun 1st and to me i know i for one have less fun when i over spend ! Here's to more cheap assed racin !!!

Dennis

After all it is a hobby, learn how to make it or spend the money! Leave the manufactures out of the Racing & rules....

Hey Dennis just sell cheap in Indiana us hoosiers are poor!

Tim ,
i whole heartily agree with what you say about supporting the guys who make and run rules that make sense . Trouble seems to be finding those folks willing to step away from the Fray as it were. I commend a change to the plastic idler as a step in the right direction but it's only the 1st one in what should be many more. The escalation of costs has gotten out of hand so some groups like TRACK have started a C.A.R. class ( cheap assed racin ) to combat rising costs and revert towards a more relaxed retro style of racing. Cost as we all know is one reason why we lose racers as they feel priced out of the podium or even just the fun of being in the hunt . Personally speaking i can't stand the idea of $30 gear sets , $15-20 bodies , $12-15 sili sponge tires , and $15-20 fronts etc etc etc ! That's ridiculous prices as i have either made or sold or priced each of these items. Gear sets = $8-9 bulk wholesale x 2 $16-18 retail . Sponge tires $3-3.50 wholesale x2 = $6-7 retail , fronts $3-3.50 Wholesale = $6-7 retail , resin bodies never ever should cost double digits when mass popped ! Crazy to say this but i have been told before that i sold some items way too cheap and i was HURTING the hobby by doing so ! What ? True enough it was said by a friend in the business then another in the business agreed. Sooo.... i dropped selling a couple of items and raised my pricing a tad to apieze them. I have been re-thinking those decisions lately and just may drop things to a more reasonable level to my standards . Damm it i jumped on my soap box again. Sorry about this all but it just burns me more and more. The hobby is supposed to be fun 1st and to me i know i for one have less fun when i over spend ! Here's to more cheap assed racin !!!

Dennis

Stay on that box man!
I feel the shift already. I think we will see a good number of clubs starting cost saving measures. The next thing will be rear tires. It will be interesting to see who is the first to blink on that one. The next thing will be the bodies.

And I for one want to thank you for the efforts you put into this hobby. Keep up the good work.:thumbsup:

Please explain the dash format

The dash format is simply a very short race scored by a points system. We ran a dash style league this summer at the local shop. each racer ran a ten lap race in each lane, they sarted each race from the start/finish line, and ran thru to the end finishing the lap they were on. (no turning off the power)

Your finish position was your score. we ran for a the lowest score. in this format, you can run thru multiple times and everyone gets a ton of track time, without waiting a long time.
This also alows a newbe to get a few good finishes in a night against the hotshots, as they run the gutters.

resin bodies never ever should cost double digits when mass popped !

I Totally agree on that, If someone charges more then $8-10 for a resin they are in the hobby to try an get rich an NOT promote it to bring more people into it.
If you add up the cost of rubber an resin, say a stater kit for $60-75 an can make 100++ bodies for the stater set resin, charging more then $10 is just ludicris an they need to put down their crack pipe cause they are definatly HIGH!!!!!!

Tim ,
thanks for the kind words pal ! Rick you know i take care of my guys in Indiana. Now so as not to run my mouth without backing it up .... i just went to my website and dropped prices all over the place and will drop more stuff shortly too ! BTW NO BODY costs more than $8.00 period. I am in process of molding out 6 other bodies over the next month or so and pledge to do the same for them as well. thanks to all for the great support.

Dennis :thumbsup:

Tim ,
thanks for the kind words pal ! Rick you know i take care of my guys in Indiana. Now so as not to run my mouth without backing it up .... i just went to my website and dropped prices all over the place and will drop more stuff shortly too ! BTW NO BODY costs more than $8.00 period. I am in process of molding out 6 other bodies over the next month or so and pledge to do the same for them as well. thanks to all for the great support.

Dennis :thumbsup:

If more people in the hobby would do what you just did to support the hobby, It would not be a DIEING hobby. I applaude you.
BTW what is your site addy, Id like to see what bodies you offer, Ive never bought a resin from anyone before due to the price. I useally cast my own from HW but the selection of cars that will work on the slotcar wheel base just isnt as good anymore

Kevin

Hi Kevin ,
thanks for the nice thoughts i do appreciate them . I did not wish to post my site as i did not wish to be accused of pandering for a sale. Since you asked i will PM it to you in this case.

thanks , Dennis

Why ponder pandering?

I've never heard of this man! ;)

http://www.roadrageho.9f.com/index.html

GREAT SITE!!!!!!!!!! an GREAT prices to boot, I got 10 AW chassis an bodies coming soon and I will have to visit your site for some hop up parts. BTW LOVE the free decal pages

Kevin

Wow, I leave for the afternoon and go out to a company Christmas party to come back to all of this? What the heck is going on around here? :)

I am going to try that plastic idler gear trick, that sounds like a great idea...

Thanks for chiming in as well Dennis, your opinion is always valued in my book and I am glad you're out there making cool stuff for all of us my friend.

And for those who don't know Bearsox (i.e. Dennis Rutherford), he makes some really nice stuff and is super easy to deal with. I see you have new items yet again Dennis, we'll talk with you soon.

Marty

Thanks alot guys ! I allways appreciate the support and even more the friendship . I went back to my site and dropped more prices some . Gotta see what room i will have later on for other items but this is just what i needed as i slept well last night . Hope all of you guys find ways to make and keep your local groups and guys alive and racin / collecting. I will do all i can to help. Have a great holiday season !

Dennis :wave:

For the heck of it, today I took a JL chassis and made it up "fray" style....

I kept all the original gearing, except for the drive pinion gear and shaft, which needed to be brought to the same size as in fray specs (I don't like the stock gearing in the JL anyways). I put in a tungsten carbide rear axle with some lawbreaker silcone over sponge tires, a TC front axle with RTHO independent fronts, cleaned all that white grease off the chassis and this thing runs just as fast as my best cars do for a fraction of the cost.

I still need to balance a JL arm and try it in both my best fray car and my newly minted JL fray, I am guessing that will be me a bit more juice as well. Nice to know that the JL chassis can be used to go fast too!

The J.L. chassis need a bit more work to get them raceable, but they are a fine platform. You need to be carefull of the brush springs, they are not as robust as an original.

Yeah, I am noticing that Tim, I haven't done a full blueprinting on them yet, but for a quick overhaul, they run pretty darn well and are a lot of fun. I may have to make up a batch of these things.

Thanks for the tip on the springs, this nickel plated stuff, or whatever it is, does seem to be a bit inferior, although still workable.

Fray rules are just that. No one said you cant have your own rules at your own track. If you can attract that many racers , use your own rules . If you want use JL arms do it . The Fray is what it is and right now its the biggest and best HO race format there is

Yeah, I am noticing that Tim, I haven't done a full blueprinting on them yet, but for a quick overhaul, they run pretty darn well and are a lot of fun. I may have to make up a batch of these things.

Thanks for the tip on the springs, this nickel plated stuff, or whatever it is, does seem to be a bit inferior, although still workable.

They are "different". More tension than an original, yet easier to screw up. (crease)They are nickel plated brass. It is VERY easy on stamping dies. That is why it is used.
Also keep an eye on the hangers. be shure when tightening the rivets, you don't go overboard.

Thanks Tim, I did notice that those rivets squash pretty darn fast. I also noticed I couldn't use my slot tech shoes (the windows is too narrow), I have a few sets of the Wizzard ones which seem to work pretty decent.

You are right about the tension as well, I started with the Wizzards, but they had too much, putting in the thunderbrushes eased things up nicely.

And 2racer, you are correct, I am trying to stay close to the rules just to keep things consistent, but it's nice to have options with the local guys and that I can build up some fairly cheap fray style cars for some fun IROC racing or whatever else may come along. My last 2 trips to the fray were fun, but amazingly frustrating as well. I won't get into here, the complaints I have are shared with MANY others. Perhaps one of these days the organizers of these big racers will open things up more, which will in turn bring more people...

Guys ,
i'm enjoying the thread thus far . Marty you got me thinking about those wizzard shoes. I was wondering who if anyone has managed to get them just right ? I'm curious as to what it takes and who after using them regularly prefers them ? Any thoughts guys ? I have not had time to really work with them or slottech shoes so good usable info would be nice .

Dennis

I'd like to hear the setup formula for the Wizzard shoes too. I love the rear hanger, the robustness, inherent restriction, and the flat contact surface but I must be doing something wrong because I see a big drop in power compared to BSRT 504s. I'm sure it's my setup.

Humm drop in power is a good point. Could be setup but i wonder if there may also be other reasons like materials used to make shoes or resistance change due to material and thickness etc ? It's common for material to be mixed with filler . For instance brushes often have as much as 10% filler or blend. Materials like nickel are used in brushes all the time so could this blending filler be a problem for shoes ? Look at the JL "silver" shoes and how brittle they are and the original tuff ones shoes being plated for conductivity. Things that make you go HUMMMMMMMMM ! LOL

Dennis

Tim ,
i whole heartily agree with what you say about supporting the guys who make and run rules that make sense . Trouble seems to be finding those folks willing to step away from the Fray as it were. I commend a change to the plastic idler as a step in the right direction but it's only the 1st one in what should be many more. The escalation of costs has gotten out of hand so some groups like TRACK have started a C.A.R. class ( cheap assed racin ) to combat rising costs and revert towards a more relaxed retro style of racing. Cost as we all know is one reason why we lose racers as they feel priced out of the podium or even just the fun of being in the hunt . Personally speaking i can't stand the idea of $30 gear sets , $15-20 bodies , $12-15 sili sponge tires , and $15-20 fronts etc etc etc ! That's ridiculous prices as i have either made or sold or priced each of these items. Gear sets = $8-9 bulk wholesale x 2 $16-18 retail . Sponge tires $3-3.50 wholesale x2 = $6-7 retail , fronts $3-3.50 Wholesale = $6-7 retail , resin bodies never ever should cost double digits when mass popped ! Crazy to say this but i have been told before that i sold some items way too cheap and i was HURTING the hobby by doing so ! What ? True enough it was said by a friend in the business then another in the business agreed. Sooo.... i dropped selling a couple of items and raised my pricing a tad to apieze them. I have been re-thinking those decisions lately and just may drop things to a more reasonable level to my standards . Damm it i jumped on my soap box again. Sorry about this all but it just burns me more and more. The hobby is supposed to be fun 1st and to me i know i for one have less fun when i over spend ! Here's to more cheap assed racin !!!

Dennis

Dennis thanks for mentioning our "C.A.R." or Tuffy class and for your input when we were hashing over the details. In a nutshell we're allowing all T-Jet type chassis including original, Tuff Ones, JL, MM. All motors (except Super II) and all factory parts with a few after market parts such as double flange rear hubs, motor brushes and pickup shoes. You can also flatten or bend your shoes without restictions and interchange parts from the different chassis. No brass front sets or weights are allowed. Slip on tires only. No drill blank axles. JL front ends with o-rings are pretty much the standard and tech block is 1-3/16".

Our first race with these was Saturday. Winner was a T-Jet with JL arm and 9 tooth gear. Other top 4 cars were T-Jets with mean greens. Fifth place was pure JL with unbalanced arm. We also had an IROC race using the championship format in Trackmate with 10 lap sprints. A good car shouldn't run over $30. They're fun to race and pretty fast. The possible combinations with these is just about endless. Rules can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TRACK/files/ under "Tuffy Rules". :thumbsup: for cheap ass racing. Greg C.

Sounds great!

I'd like to hear the setup formula for the Wizzard shoes too. I love the rear hanger, the robustness, inherent restriction, and the flat contact surface but I must be doing something wrong because I see a big drop in power compared to BSRT 504s. I'm sure it's my setup.

The BSRTs and Wizards are two ends the spectrum. BSRts will provide more brute HP but you suffer in the hanlding dept. These are good for routed tracks.
The wizzard affering is much heavier and better suited for a sectional track. Try lightening up on the tension, and watch that contact patch. Limit the hell out of them too!


Dive those corners!:woohoo:

Hey Tim ,
do you actually use them all that often ? I'm sure you tested them as knowing you they got a nice trail atleast.

Dennis :wave:

Dennis, I can barely see some of the text with the weird color combos you're using. But I do have a hankering for a StarBurst right about now.:)

Wizzard Pickup shoes:

http://www.slotmonsters.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1318

BTW: The Front Range HO racing group has also done ALOT of testing with JL arms. An average JL arm seems to provide the same performance as a handpicked, balanced, etc. Aurora arm.

you rules sound great but i dont get why you dont allow drill blank axles. drill blanks are cheap, readily available, and make great axles. what was the reasoning behind that rule?

Dennis, I can barely see some of the text with the weird color combos you're using. But I do have a hankering for a StarBurst right about now.:) LOL ! Kinda like turning up the volume. As i age i need to turn it up since i can't get a tuneup or other way to calibrate my eyes. Bad eyes on my part says Just be thankful i can still play with toys. If vision goes one day i'll need Bill Hall to build me a braille car !:freak:

Dennis

Hey Tim ,
do you actually use them all that often ? I'm sure you tested them as knowing you they got a nice trail atleast.

Dennis :wave:

Yes, I use them ALOT.
I Love them for sectional tracks. pair them with a .059 front axle, a brass front end of your choice and a set of soft front tires and you won't believe the difference in the smoothness and handling.
They are also AWSOME on skinny tired t-jets. As in the mahor stock class and the like.
I am working up the "fray car tuning" installment for them now. In the meantime the Front range guys have a great site devoted to all this stuff too.
(Thanks Walt)

Hey Tim ,
you ever use the Hurley front tires as part of the setup including the wiz shoes ? Just curious as allways . I personally like them a lot on sectional tracks like Tomy or tyco but never tried the wiz Hurley combo. I also like using the wiz fronts and weird Jacks low stocker front tires ground down on sectionals.

Dennis

Hey Tim ,
you ever use the Hurley front tires as part of the setup including the wiz shoes ? Just curious as allways . I personally like them a lot on sectional tracks like Tomy or tyco but never tried the wiz Hurley combo. I also like using the wiz fronts and weird Jacks low stocker front tires ground down on sectionals.

Dennis

Those are EXACTLY the soft fronts I was talking about. I bought a bunch of 'em at the last fray, and I could'nt be happier. Pair them with a old style Wiz floppy front and you have a great sectional settup.
Don't forget to check the weight before racing. You can usually take a little out of the roof when using Wiz Shoes.:woohoo:

Tim ,
thanks alot brother as that's all good stuff i wanna hear. Take care , Dennis :woohoo: