Just wondering if the Tekin is that much better than a Novak GTB ESC.At our local track most of us are running Novak and have one car that is running a Tekin and is running times in the 17.5 gearbox class as fast as some cars in the 13.5 direct drive class.If the speed control is that much better then I will buy one,just trying to figure where all the speed is coming from.He is only on the thottle for about half the straight away and then is off and then brakes for the turn because he has so much speed then hits the throttle coming out of the turn then lets of and coast's past everybody.

There is alot to a gearbox car, if built right can be as fast as a dd car. Compare apples to apples. Tekin has the hotwire option which is nice.......

I give the edge to the tekin b/c the foot print. not really head and shoulders above the gtb but such a compact unit and the hot wire is tits!

So there is not a huge difference in speed between the two of them?This car has a lot of people scratching there heads,I would say if this car ran a straight line with another car for 200 feet it would win by 75+ feet.If not speed control is there that much difference in motors?I'm new to brushless but I thought they were all somewhat close.

I would guess it is not the ESC that needs to be looked at.

You can build a gearbox and driverrain that spins forever. Or he has a big motor in there pulling the wool over everybodies eyes.

Are you guys all running the same motors?

I would suspect a motor inconsistency. To put it nicely.

You're not going to find that any production brushless ESC is gonna put laps on another one. The LRP currently has the most timing advance. Novak and Tekin, I believe, are at the same point (again, production models). Where the Tekin stands out is footprint (like Jesse said, as well as the hotwire capability). Tekin is also upgradeable with downloadable updates.

All 17.5 some are Novak some are Trinity,his being a Trinity.Nothing is even in the same zone.Everyone is just trying to figure out what he is running that is so much better so we can get it and be a little more competitive but he is as fast as us and at least half again.I thought all this stuff was supposed to be close to the same.

I would suspect a motor inconsistency. To put it nicely.

LOL! Kinda what I'm thinkin...

All 17.5 some are Novak some are Trinity,his being a Trinity.Nothing is even in the same zone.Everyone is just trying to figure out what he is running that is so much better so we can get it and be a little more competitive but he is as fast as us and at least half again.I thought all this stuff was supposed to be close to the same.

You were told wrong... sorry.... It's a stone myth that brushless is going to make for an IROC-style race. If anything, it's made it more of a chassis-tuner's game. Setup is more critical (IMO) on the brushless motors than it ever was on brushed motors.

By the way, the Trinity-based are outrunning the Novaks pretty handily on the ovals.

We all understand that setup and driving is very important.Myself I could use a lot of improvement but there are other guys that run a much better line and cleaner laps only to be lapped many times because of outright speed.I never like to say someone is doing something they should'nt and I always try to improve my driving and equipment but I as well as others are at a loss as to what equipment to get.

Next time you are at the track with this fast guy, go check out what he's got. We can beat this issue like a dead horse and not get any answers until you see what you are running against.

You'll find one of two possibilites.
1. He's running a totally legal setup and you have alot of homework to do or maybe some new equipment to buy.

OR,

2. He's running a illegal setup and he has some new equipment to buy.

Might want to see if that motor came out of Putnam's shop.

The motor is one of Putnams.Are they that much faster?If so then Novak might as well stop selling motors because they are not even close to the same thing.This car is so fast that he only hits the throttle for half of a straight away and coasts the rest and then is all over the place in the turns and still runs way faster lap times than the guys that run a good line.

If that motor is legal at your track. Then I guess you have to go with option #1 in my post above.

Sounds like it.It's really hard to believe that there is that much difference in motors,I guess Novak better start doing a lot of homework because if thats the case there motors are'nt even in the same league.Guess I'll be calling Todd Putnam Monday morning.

We started running putnam's 13.5 w/tekin rs in d.o. edm,had novak motors and esc all outdoor season,last night at bumps n jumps in pa.,we tq'ed by a lap ,only to have bad luck in the main w/a lapper while leading. 2nd qual. was all novak and he did run some faster laps then us but we really nailed the set-up also a putnam chassis, gearing what we were running compared to novak guy was so different its really wierd! My point is there seems to be alot more choices as far as rollout and timing with brushless its crazy.We are still new to brushless and after talking to todd putnam on the phone helped me understand a little more about it, and just the fact that you can leave the motor and lipo batt. in the car all day is awesome.

I'm not sure Novak has to do any homework. They set the standard and have an incredibly loyal customer base here in the midwest and elsewhere too. Especially with the brushless equipment. The other companies have done what they are supposed to do too - they made a product that is faster although that doesn't do any good for the racers when you have to buy a new motor every time company X makes a motor with the same "specs" and is faster.
Faster motors are not always the answer. Like you said about this guy with the faster motor - he's having trouble putting a clean lap together and is just really faster down the straight's. It's easy to make a car go fast in straight line.

Yea sounds like the same old money game as it's always been.I got out of the hobby for about 7years and then heard brushless would equal things out but I see it's still all about the money.It's no wonder why you don't see young kids starting out in novice classes anymore it's cheaper to just buy a video game and stay at home.To bad money is ruining a whole hobby.I just hope I can make some of the money back I have wasted in trying to get back in a hobby I started out haveing so much fun at.

If what you claim that the car is 30% faster then all others then I would guess that it has NOTHING to do with the motor. One Novak motor of a like wind IS NOT that much faster then others. As you have been told before, look elsewhere.

One other possibility is that a few Novak motors got out to customers that had wrong wind in them. You can check the inductance of the motor to make sure it has the proper winds.

hank, he said that they have open motors. You can run whatever motor you want as long as its xx.x winds.

Yes, and if that 17.5 Novak motor is really a mislabeled 13.5 motor I suspect it would run 30% faster then a 17.5 and be as fast as the 13.5 direct drive motors.

Hate to say it but just like the fact that all brushed motors are not equal even if they are the same type, ie, stock or same turn mod; same is true of brushless. Also batts can make a big difference. Are you all running the same type, ie, 4 cell NIMH or Lipo or is it a mix? All these things can make a huge difference.

Are we comparing a 17.5 on 6-cells/LiPo to a 13.5 on 4 Nimh cells? If so, I wouldn't be too surprised if the gearbox car with the 17.5 was slightly faster on the straights than a 13.5 pan car on 4 cells. But if his turns are as messed up as you say and he still kills them on the straights, I'd say someone should be shopping for a cheap LCR meter to check his motor (or ask me how to build a simple resistance tester). Also, the Trinity motor design has completely removable ends with the windings in the center section, so you don't even need a soldering iron to put the 17.5 red color ends on a 5.5 turn motor and have something that LOOKS legal.

running times in the 17.5 gearbox class as fast as some cars in the 13.5 direct drive class.

Please give more info
Like Kevin said is it a 4 cell vs 6 cell
types of cars
There is something missing somewhere

i can tell you right now this guy is not the kind to be doing anything illegal...

the cars being compared are a 17.5/lipo gearbox and 13.5/4 cell dd.I understand that more voltage is gonna give you more power but with the type of laps this guy is running the is no way he should be putting up the lap times he is with a 17.5/lipo gearbox car.I can believe a 17.5 gearbox/lipo could be slightly faster in terms of staight away speed but 13.5/4 cells usually run alot cleaner a smoother through turns.And on top of it all the gearbox is 3/4 of a pound heavier.This gearbox has way more speed than the driver knows what to do with he hits the throttle for half the straight and brakes in the turns still almost hits the outside wall in the turn and he still runs the same lap times as a 13.5/4 cell.Other guys in the gearbox class that are running alot cleaner a smoother and can only get 3.5 lap times this guy is running 3.3s and sometime 3.2s.Also took a look at his car last week his gearing is way off compared to the other 17.5 gearbox cars he's running around a 100 spur with a 55 pinion everyone else is starting at around a 80 spur with a 55 pinion which winds everone else's motor right out most have gone up with there pinion.I do expect him to slow down though the track owner is getting an inductance meter sometime soon souly because of this car.

i can tell you right now this guy is not the kind to be doing anything illegal...

What guy are you talking about?

I found this thread and thought I would address it with facts instead of opinions. :thumbsup:

The racer that this thread is speaking of is Ned Vanderwerken. Let me give you a brief backround of Ned...

He has been around full scale racing for 40+ years. He is an extremely accomplished combustion engine guy, and has built many race-winning engines dating back to the Tommy Corellis/dirt mod days. As of late, he is most recognized as Brett Hearn's former "at the track" engine and carb guy. He no longer works with Brett, as he now has some engines on the NE truck circuit and spends his efforts tuning and traveling on occaission to the races where his engines compete. Point being, he's a very established racer.

Now, for his R/C equipment: He has had me build, setup and maintain the majority of the cars in his fleet. In fact, he even owns the EDM that I club raced the majority of the 2008 season. His cars are on my scales and surface plates weekly, and no stone goes unturned. He spends whatever it takes to have the best equipment, for himslef, me or any other driver he lets run for him. He attacks R/C racing with 110% devotion- week in, week out.

Every motor that he has in his arsenal is one of our full-blown blueprinted and dyno-tuned brushless motors. Every one of his packs are cycled, and he only races the best packs.

The program he has assembled is second to none.

Let me also make one additional point. I am all for the Lipo/Brushless movement. The misconception that all motors, speed controls, and packs are close in performance is just that - a total misconception. The majority of the racing community is aware of this, and Ned and I have worked extremely hard to eliminate all performance variables. There is no gray area regarding any of Ned's cars, speed controls, motors, or batteries. Simply put, there are no faster speed controls, motors, batteries, etc; than what Ned has assembled in his arsenal.

As for anyone who may have insinuated that he is cheating, I am sure he will let you tech anything he has - even welcome it. He works harder than any 2 racers I know, and the results show this.

I hope this clears a few minds. Besides, it's a lot cheaper route to cheat than the path Ned has chosen - and both my accountant and I can attest that the path Ned has chosen to win isn't a cheap one...:thumbsup:

If I can be of any assistance to help anyone find some speed, feel free to contact me.

Regards,
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
518-452-0422

Does not appear by the names dropped that he likes to hang around SLACKERS!:p

Todd,

Ned is MUCH slower since the motor in question "blew up". It was really humorous watching his car.

Everyone should have just kept quiet until the motor was checked for inductance.

he slowed down once an inductance meter was mentioned by the track owner.also tommy if I kept my mouth shut the inductance meter would not exist Ned is the main reason they got that thing.There is no doubt in my mind that he was Cheating I know you can build a fast motor Todd I've been in the hobby for quite awhile too but theres no 17.5 out there that can turn the rpms that motor was turnin.One other thing that is humorous he acts like a 12 year old girl if you get him 2 laps down.

Inductance away - he will pass with flying colors. I check each and every one of our motors on my LCR meter for inductance as well as guass each rotor - it is part of my blueprinitng process. I just may have some insight to why he was faster, and I can assure you that in no way shape or form was he cheating by the rules.

To educate you guys a bit, I have had Ned testing prototype Lipo batteries at RCH before they were available to the general public, had the Tekin 1.89 upgrade installed prior to being available to the public, along with many other areas we are testing that I do not care to disclose.

I have seen as much as a 15-20 watt difference when dynoing brushless motors. As a brushed comparison, the difference between the best and worst brushed motors was about 5-7 watts. As a benchmark, 27 turn stocks are about 80 watts, a Checkpoint 19 turn is about 100 while the Hemi-wound Komodos are about 115.

I can't understand how a thread can have this many posts, and has rec'd this much energy but yet not one of you has approached him regarding his car, nor had his car protested. If you feel certain he is/was cheating, and strongly enough to crucify him on a public forum over the fact you "think" he is, maybe someone should have stepped up and protested his car at the track first - or at least approached him and asked why he is so much faster - he probably would have jumped at the opportunity to tell you what he was running.

Let's not forget that when he TQ'd and his car was teched, it passed.

I do expect that his speed has decreased since the conclusion to some of our testing. We have learned that you can't run a motor at 50-60 degrees of timing with a pack that produces more than 2 tenths of a volt more than any other currently available pack, without smoking the motor every 1-2 runs. :thumbsup:

Next time before you crucify someone, maybe approach him or protest him at the track first. It would save all of you and him some unneccessary embarrassment and apologies.

Todd,

Ned is MUCH slower since the motor in question "blew up". It was really humorous watching his car.

Everyone should have just kept quiet until the motor was checked for inductance.

Tommy, see my above post.

I know you have been running BL for a while, but based on your post, may not realize how much these can actually vary.

Shameless plug / infomercial / education time: There were (2) Putnam motors @ the ROAR Region 1 Carpet Oval Regionals @ The Toybox. They qualified 1-2 and ran 1-2, and Pace was accused by others of cheating. He wasn't.

At the Cleveland Indoor Champs, our motors swept, were thought to be illiegal, were torn down, inductanced, etc; and were found to be perfectly legal.

Point being, brushless is far less work than brushed, and I love and embrace it. Are they all equal - uh, no, far from it with a performance variance 4 times that of brushed.

I hope this helps shed some light on everything.:thumbsup:

T.P -

This may be a question for your thread, but...what would you say is the biggest contributing factor to the variance that you have been seeing in Trinity's BL's? The reason that I ask is because we have never seen such a difference in motors unless they were mismarked by NOVAK - which I only am aware of two cases. Not diggin' for any proprietary knowledge...just wondering how such simple motors can be so different. We have found weak rotors can be just as fast with rollout adjustments so that leads me to believe that the quality of the wind tells the story? Thanks in advance for anything you're willing to share.

Josh,

Ned is quiet...but really a nice guy when he wants to speak! You guys don't have enough racers to handle this in the way you have been. Talk it out with him. Maybe he'll bring some friends up if they hear good things.

well if everything you say is true then he has been cheating if they were prototype lipo batts then that is cheating since rch only allows roar approved lipo's.also we did say something to the track owner about his car but at that time there was no way of check inductance since they didnt have an lcr.Once the owner gotan lcr meter his car fell off by five laps on average compared to what he was running.I dont see any problem with the speed his car puts out now since its nothing compared to what it was before.Also I have really no interest in talking to ned so ask what he is running but have over heard other racer's ask him and his exact words everytime are "If I knew I would tell you".

jason
we had the racers they all went to s & h before they left they could'nt come close to keepin up either.

i can tell you right now this guy is not the kind to be doing anything illegal...

just wanted to add one more thing nobody said anything about cheating or running illegal till this guy said something he runs down at s&h and nobody mentioned a name the driver or a track till you todd.

Clearly if you reduce Todd's post, to the relevant sentences, it
just goes along with what we should know already....
If you take 500 motors... there is one that really stands out.
If you take 1000 batteries... there is one that really stands out.

Some of us buy one motor, and one battery.
We play the cards that we're dealt.
Others... get the 500 motors, and the 1000 batteries...
Same game.. just played differently..

It's not cheating.
Speed cost money.... how much do you want to spend?

Read the shorter, edited version:

The racer that this thread is speaking of is Ned Vanderwerken.
.....he's a very established racer.

Now, for his R/C equipment: He has had me build, setup and maintain the majority of the cars in his fleet...... He spends whatever it takes to have the best equipment..... He attacks R/C racing with 110% devotion...
Every motor that he has in his arsenal is one of our full-blown blueprinted and dyno-tuned brushless motors. Every one of his packs are cycled, and he only races the best packs....
The program he has assembled is second to none.

The misconception that all motors, speed controls, and packs are close in performance is just that - a total misconception....Simply put, there are no faster speed controls, motors, batteries, etc; than what Ned has assembled in his arsenal.
..both my accountant and I can attest that the path Ned has chosen to win isn't a cheap one...:thumbsup:

Regards,
Todd Putnam

Jason,

I believe the largest contributing factor is in fact the windings, assuming that the laminations are all made from the same material and that there are equal number of laminations from motor to motor, etc;

Here's the kicker: If you disassemble one of the top wattage-producing motors, they don't necessarily have the lowest, (or highest for that matter) inductance.

We have found a correlation of data between components that, so far, yields more, higher performing motors than if they were just assembled randomly.

As you and I have discussed in the past, there are many variables with any mass-produced product. Once guys spend a little time and effort to educate themselves and figure out what makes them tick, performance envelopes will be pushed, all within the constraints of the rules.

A lot of what we are seeing is that the full potential of these motors is not unleashed as they come from the factory, much like an "un-tuned" brushed motor.
My analogyy is this: If I returned to pan car racing today, and bought whatever car you are currently running, yours is tuned to be faster due to your effort and hard work. For me to scream, "But I have the same car as Jason" and expect it to be as fast as yours is ridiculous.

I hope this helps-

TP

Looking at this from an outsiders point of view, I am going have to go with what Mr. Putman has posted.In my 20 plus years of playing this game, I have seen the difference between the guys that really work on their cars, look at every detail, and do maintenance during the week and the guys that pile their stuff in the corner and don't touch it till race day.
I have been in both camps, and I have found that putting some effort into this pays off on race day.This game is no different than racing full sized cars. It takes some effort amd this gentleman is beating everybody because he puts forth more than the rest of them.
It's not about equipment, it's what you do with it.
Before you go calling a guy a cheater, make sure you know what your talking about.

He broke the rules running non-ROAR approved batteries, plain and simple. Theres no excuse for this as the track has the rules posted. His wins should be taken away as hes running in a points division with a cash prize as the payout.

"To educate you guys a bit, I have had Ned testing prototype Lipo batteries at RCH before they were available to the general public..."

Pretty much says it all.

I believe the largest contributing factor is in fact the windings, assuming that the laminations are all made from the same material and that there are equal number of laminations from motor to motor, etc;


A lot of what we are seeing is that the full potential of these motors is not unleashed as they come from the factory, much like an "un-tuned" brushed motor.

I believe this backs up what I was "thinking". Thanks for clearing the air. :thumbsup:

I look at it like this...

If NOVAK (our baseline of the original classes) had poorly wound motors but only a 5% tolerance that created close racing, then we would rightfully think of those as the golden standard for comparison.

Along comes a mfg. with poor tolerances that someone figures out how to make every unit perform to its fullest within spec. and it looks "strange" - for better or worse.

T.P. - again, thanks for taking the time to explain.

Jason

I started this post to find out if one part was better than another and if so get that part.Now that I find that someone is running illegal non ROAR approved parts I am very disapointed.These parts were used in a points series with cash and prizes involved and even if the parts were used for research it's still wrong they were not and are not ROAR approved period.For someone to do this is a disgrace to himself and the hobby we have enough problems trying to get more people in the hobby.As for Ned doing what it takes to win I see that every week as I have spent over $200.00 in broken parts from this car running over not around me and up until now I just excepted that as racing but now that I know what I do I am over the top POed.WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!:(:(:(:(

Josh,

Let me clear up a few things:

-According to Ned, the fastest he has run is 84 laps - which Dave Lareau has run as well in the beginning of the season. To quote Dave, "I changed my car all around and now I'm not as fast..." It appears as if Dave could compete, and beat Ned - Dave also has an incredible program and works very hard to go fast. If he was retired as Ned is, I am sure he would devote even more time than he already does.

-We have run 88 laps in 27 turn stock pan car there with 4 cell 3300's. 84 laps with a 6 cell/or lipo with today's equipment is not unheard of. In fact, I would think that if the track had ample bite, the gearbox cars should actually be faster than 84 - but I am speculating.

1)-The prototype pack is ROAR approved. You probably already know this, since you have raced for quite a while, as how things actually work re: ROAR approvals: Example: There were 4-5 different versions of the IB 4200 cell, with each new version of the cell obsoleting the last - all in the exact same blue IB 4200 shrink. This scenario also took place with the IB 4600's, 3800's, and virtually every other cell that has been ROAR approved over the last 2 decades. What is on ROAR's approved list has very little to do with what is actually inside the fancy "ROAR Approved" packaging... :rolleyes:

2) Another point I was attempting to make is if you start a thread asking if there is a performance difference of a Novak vs. a Tekin, (which there is a significant difference) but you have to ask since you don't know, how can you honestly judge the performance of any of his equipment? Are you an expert on every other aspect of his racing equipment except speed controls?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1) What do your packs cycle out at? Runtime, voltage @ every 30 seconds, average voltage and resistance. At what temperature? Charge rate? Discharge rate?

2)How much timing is in your motor? How much timing advance in is your speed control? How many watts does your combination make on the dyno?

3) How much do you change your rollout with variance in voltage, resistance and tire wear?

4) How many RPM's do ceramic bearings add to your motors, and how much do you need to change your rollout to compensate for this increase?

The list of my questions could go on and on. Point being, there are many, many variables that govern how fast or how slow we go.

It appears based on your recent posts that you have a personal issue with Ned - maybe I am wrong - but you appear to be spending more effort on tearing him down rather than working hard, as he has done, to catch yourself up. You never mentioned his name, but when I did, you made a personal attack on him. Again, appears you have a personal agenda-

I understand how frustrating it can be in racing when someone is faster than you. Nothing in racing comes easy, and everything has it's cost. Again, I can offer to help you out if you want to focus your efforts on catching up in a positive manner vs. trying to paint a negative image of someone who is faster, and who is also my friend.

If you wish to contact me, and keep it off public forums, you can PM me here or call the shop M-F, 9-5 EST.

Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
518-452-0422

He broke the rules running non-ROAR approved batteries, plain and simple. Theres no excuse for this as the track has the rules posted. His wins should be taken away as hes running in a points division with a cash prize as the payout.

"To educate you guys a bit, I have had Ned testing prototype Lipo batteries at RCH before they were available to the general public..."

Pretty much says it all.

It's perfectly legal if it is already on the ROAR approved list- :thumbsup:

It's not about equipment, it's what you do with it.


Please.
That is so cliche.

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