Just curious what guys think and what guys are doing... (on heating lipos).

no to heating lipos!

this will be the start of the downfall of a good thing in my oppinion.

we do not allow overcharging why allow heating tricks.

mike blackstock himself screwed up and walked away from his heating pad and his lipo swelled up like a balloon. these gimmiks will one day cause a :(fire and shut down a local track!

nip this pooh pooh in the bud now!

warm is a good thing!!!!!

no to heating lipos!

this will be the start of the downfall of a good thing in my oppinion.

we do not allow overcharging why allow heating tricks.

mike blackstock himself screwed up and walked away from his heating pad and his lipo swelled up like a balloon. these gimmiks will one day cause a :(fire and shut down a local track!

nip this pooh pooh in the bud now!

Never have I seen a heating pad that got hot enough to do this must be half of the real story.

Never have I seen a heating pad that got hot enough to do this must be half of the real story.

Kinda what I was thinking...

We allow HEAT

Some are using REPTILE heaters, so regular heating pads..and a few guys have built a box w/ a lightbulb (like a susiebake oven) and a air vent to regulate the temps.

MOST don't - because they don't want to hassle with it...and I personally would prefer that nobody did..cause then it wouldn't be an issue.

I just encourage everyone to use their head, and think about SAFETY of others when you do what you do... and if everyone plays nicely... there should be very little actual NEED for a LIPO SACK - hiding your batteries where you can't visibly monitor them.

it's a damn shame no one will listen or comprehend what they read.

here is mike blackstocks report word for word!!!!

For your info.. I did heat my lipo with a normal heating pad for back aches etc.. I would charge the lipo put them in the heating pad about 20 mins before i ran and the temp would be close to 110 when i took them out for my heat.. They would cool down on the outside quick but you could still tell when it was heated vs not heated..

On a side note i did on accident almost have a major problem, This happend during practice. I charged my lipo and then threw it in the heater and then i decided to go get something to eat and forgot i threw it in the heater.. So it was in there approx over a hour... BAD mistake.. I realized it and when i went to take it out the thing had swelled up like she was going to blow... So i put it in the lipo sack and waited and waited.. It shrank back down to normal size within about 20 minutes. But i have not run it or did anything with it at this time.. The pack was still fully charged when I checked the voltage.. So let this be a warning and not let the packs sit over 30 minutes in there... It is obvious that the warming is causing chemical reaction of some sort for it to swell like this..

NO HEATING, I'm sure that if allowed there will be accidents because everyone like to chit chat during the day and get something to eat, and Oh I forgot my battery is on the heating pad.

Again if no one does it then there is no advantage.

The BRL doesn't allow it.

Thanks Sonny.

no to heating lipos!

this will be the start of the downfall of a good thing in my oppinion.

we do not allow overcharging why allow heating tricks.

mike blackstock himself screwed up and walked away from his heating pad and his lipo swelled up like a balloon. these gimmiks will one day cause a :(fire and shut down a local track!

nip this pooh pooh in the bud now!

Yeah KatFish!!! :woohoo:

mike blackstock himself screwed up and walked away from his heating pad and his lipo swelled up like a balloon. these gimmiks will one day cause a fire and shut down a local track!


I haven't seen one that the swelling went back down on...that's kind of interesting.

AND I agree w/ the FIRE posibility -- cause we have CLOSE issues to fires with ALL of our electronics these days... ESC's, MOTOR's, BATTS...

all the lipo manufacturers tell you to pre warm lipo to between 75 and 80 degrees for 2 hours before charging.

75 deg is room temp. if charging in alaska than yes warming than up to 75 is ok in my book. but over 100 deg and i have issues.

What is the heating supposed to accomplish?

One more fricken thing to worry about. I swelled a $90 dollar pack this past weekend too get that extra .1 volts because I was forced to. Why can't we just go Racing and forget the Mr. Wizard crap.

Plain Stupid!

P.S.- A $13 dollar heating pad from Wall-mart will get hot enough to swell a lipo pack!

Deel

scott let's say you have a 7.38 avg volt lipo pack when charged at room temp..

take the same pack and heat it up right before you hit the track...you now have a 7.48 avg volt pack and you lowered the IR..and i'm sorry but even "if" it doesn't help you on the track..in oval it's monkey see monkey do and we all want to do what the fast guys are doing.


deel sorry there was no rule in place for this at the masters.....i feel your pain

No advantage if no one does it. NO TO HEATING!

I like Metal, had the same thing happen this weekend. The heating pad on low got the pack to 110degrees. Having them on heat even without charging causes some to swell. One of mine did and one did not. Heating does make a BIG difference. Some cycle #s for you.. An SMC 3200 pack. It was 334 runtime, 7.28 voltage and 8.2 internal. After heating to 108 it then became a 341 runtime, 7.42voltage and 5.7 internal. That is a big difference on the track. If a track does not put a rule in effect for a no heating policy, people will do it. If one guy does it for an advantage, then the second guy will want to do the same thing.
I think there should be a no heating rule for Lipos. If no one is allowed to do it, then things are fair for everyone and semi-safe again.

I'd like to see a few post some 20 amp numbers, only run down to 300 seconds, since that's probably still more than anyone running 21.5 or 17.5 will actually use.

(I Know everyone likes to see 35 amp numbers...but I like to see what the packs are doing under closer to race conditions)

Now back to the real world>>>>>>> :freak:
Round cells have been exploding everywhere for more then 4 years and people are and have been hurt...... 140* is just fine for them... right ???? :confused:
Now some lipo's puffs up and you guys go overboard about it.
You round cell guys have needed a temp and amp limit for a long long time !! But you get more out of them when they are in a molten state so you just keep doing it .... right ????

Kinda what I was thinking...

We allow HEAT

Some are using REPTILE heaters, so regular heating pads..and a few guys have built a box w/ a lightbulb (like a susiebake oven) and a air vent to regulate the temps.

MOST don't - because they don't want to hassle with it...and I personally would prefer that nobody did..cause then it wouldn't be an issue.

I just encourage everyone to use their head, and think about SAFETY of others when you do what you do... and if everyone plays nicely... there should be very little actual NEED for a LIPO SACK - hiding your batteries where you can't visibly monitor them.

Now we know who is starting the wildfires in California - outdoor Velodrome racers throwing their heated Lipos into the woods.:freak:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 8.44V rule fully address this issue?

Jason,

The 8.44v has NOTHING to do with HEAT


The 8.44 deal (we do 8.45) is simply a place to STOP the max input voltage (Lipo's don't PEAK the way a round cell does, they'll just keep TAKING VOLTAGE until they POP, where a ROUND CELL the voltage reaches a peak, then starts going the other way.)

A lipo pack can be charged to 8.44 (or 8.45v) and discharged, we'll say with a 7.05 average discharge voltage at ROOM TEMP

Charge the pack the SAME WAY - and apply HEAT after, or during either way...and the DISCHARGE VOLTAGE will be higher.

I see some guys heating the packs before they charge, then heating them again before they run them, others keeping them warm all the time...and some of us just don't bother...but there IS most certainly an ADVANTAGE to it. (But like ANY advantage...it only exists if NOT EVERYBODY does it)

you understand that the nimh cells were popping during a charge..sometimes well after a charge and sometimes on your way home. there realy wasn't one thing that made thempop..well except the fact that they were realy unsafe for awhile.

I went lipo because nimh cells were junk and i was buying alot of 40.00 packs to compete on a club level each month.

I WENT LIPO SO BUYING 3 PACKS EVERY COUPLE MONTHS WOULD STOP!

IF "WE" START TO ALLOW GAMES WITH LIPO'S I'M BACK BUYING 130.00 LIPO PACKS EVERY COUPLE MONTHS TO RACE AGAIN! SIGH

the moral of this story is.......when do we put our foot down and stop all the games with batteries? or do we just turn the cheek and hope for the best?

At our tech at local track, we now check voltage and temp. Not over 8.4 or 8 degrees over room temp batt.

Someone got cute a couple of weeks ago and now we are checking.

Lipos are one of the best things to come to RC racing lately, why let a few create problems for the many.

Jason,

The 8.44v has NOTHING to do with HEAT


The 8.44 deal (we do 8.45) is simply a place to STOP the max input voltage (Lipo's don't PEAK the way a round cell does, they'll just keep TAKING VOLTAGE until they POP, where a ROUND CELL the voltage reaches a peak, then starts going the other way.)

A lipo pack can be charged to 8.44 (or 8.45v) and discharged, we'll say with a 7.05 average discharge voltage at ROOM TEMP

Charge the pack the SAME WAY - and apply HEAT after, or during either way...and the DISCHARGE VOLTAGE will be higher.

I see some guys heating the packs before they charge, then heating them again before they run them, others keeping them warm all the time...and some of us just don't bother...but there IS most certainly an ADVANTAGE to it. (But like ANY advantage...it only exists if NOT EVERYBODY does it)

O.K., thanks - I thought the heat raised the nominal Voltage.

So, the heat only lowers the IR then allowing more performance?

From what I understand charging lipo's when they are cold (under 60*) will shorten the life of lipo's. It is recommended buy the manufacture to keep them at 70 to 80* for you race day and THEY WILL LAST LONGER.
Have you read what SMC had to say about heating lipo's ???? or MaxAmps, Flight Power ???

Im for heating.. people are going to be warming them up to whatever tech allows anyways! if the rule is 80deg peeps will have them at 80deg.. might as well leave it open then you dont have to worry about someone figure'n out how to heat the cells but keep the case at 80deg!

heating is just stupid. why risk the safety. like most people are saying already, if no one is doing it then its not an advantage. hopefully for the Snowbirds (i cant make it there this year) the rule is no heating

either way is fine with me, but if the max temp is 80deg my stick will be at 79.99deg...

again i understand the lipo cell need to be at or around 75 deg all the time in order to maintain shelf life.

THE LIPO CELL DOES NOT "NEED" TO BE 150 DEG OR MORE FROM WHAT I'M HEARING FROM THE OVAL MASTERS!

i'm just as concerned with safety as i am lipo life on this issue.

frank i agree whatever rule a track or event has that is what most "racers" will hit the tech table at...but 80 deg is inside my pants pocket.....110 in my fruit of the looms and anything above is xxx rated!lol


smc and others know that heating a lipo cell is an advantage on the track no doubt...danny at smc is not saying heating the lipo is a "must" nor is he saying it should be allowed...he is just stating a fact that a heated lipo runs better..i know this....i say no heat allowed ..pack should come to tech below 100 deg and i'm good with that...

we race outdoors in florida so yes on some days 100 deg may be close,lol.

from what i have found out the packs perform the same at 110 as they do at 135... there should be a limit to how hot you should be able to get them for saftey reasons. 100 or 110 would be a realistic tech rule!

Heat'em Up. Can You Imagine How Many People Will Actually Sneak Through Tech Somehow At Snowbirds. Then Somebody Will Get Caught And The Cats Out Of The Bag On The Whole Deal. Same Story Every Year. Its One Less Rule To Worry About Or Try To Get Around For Some.

Here we go again.

We go to lipos cause they're supposedly more even. Then we have to start messing with those things to get an edge, to the detriment of our safety.

Leave the ****ers alone, no heating pads.

Imagine for a minute that you're standing outside in your local track's parking lot on a cold winter night as it burns down. Then ask yourself if that extra .05 second per lap you were trying to gain by heating your lipo pack was worth it.

NIMH's popped. They didn't light up everything around them.

If I were a track owner and I saw you with a heating pad you would not race at my track anymore.

Well, just let one LHS get hit with a suit over someone getting hurt and the LHS burning down.

Then the LHS owner is not getting insurance money because he didnt declare this hazard to the insurance companies. Remember that are already getting bailed out, just give them a reason to raise commercial insurance for every single hobby shop.......

I guess we will all be bashing around cones in the parking lot soon....


Just to sell motor oil it cost me 20K a year in insurance. I cant imagine what insurance will be for extremely hot fire explosions in a enclosed area where we would hope our wives and children are.


Leave it alone make a rule no more than 10 degree -+ from the air temp.

lol, how many of you guys have actually caught a pack on fire? keep an eye on your pack and you will be fine! for a big race like the birds i 100% agree with Caleb!!! Leave the rule open & thats the only way its fair!! No heating for club races is great idea tho!!

since mike started this post im guessing he's try'n to decide weather or not to let heating batts be allowed at the birds this year.. big races YES!!! club races NO!!

For those of you against heating, how do you control people putting it outside in the sun to get it heated up?

Fixed temps of 110 won't work, especially here when our summer temps are in the 100s and track temp for paved racing is in the 130-140 range.

Heating should be allowed, up to a maximum of 120 degrees for indoor racing. This is what they used at IIC this past fall and it worked great. They didn't have any issues. Danny@SMC has stated that heating packs to this temp doesn't really affect battery life, so it's not going to make you go broke.

In either case, set a rule, and make sure your track makes that rule clear.
Paul

Heat'em Up. Can You Imagine How Many People Will Actually Sneak Through Tech Somehow At Snowbirds. Then Somebody Will Get Caught And The Cats Out Of The Bag On The Whole Deal. Same Story Every Year. Its One Less Rule To Worry About Or Try To Get Around For Some.


bingo!!!

People will heat them wether you catch them or not is the question. All the guys that follow rules will be off the pace and the guys that figure out how to beat the tech table will be a faster, save us all the drama and pitch the temp rule for the birds like Frank and Caleb said but make your local rules whatever you like to suit the track owner.

What happens when you heat the pack while discharging and charging shoot it with a little freeze spray right before going to tech. just the case is cooled and away you go. Bash all you want but you have your heads in the sand if you think this isn't going to happen.

What ever the rules are I will follow but don't just be blind to reality!

The thing I find funny is all the attention and focus on HEATING the packs and safety, yet I would have to say 99.9% of the issues I've seen at our Series and Club races in the past 15 months had NOTHING to do with heating...

Most, but not all of the 'over charging' VOLTAGE issues have come from GFX chargers

Most of the CHARGING related pack swelling came from charger 'USER ERROR' with improper settings, usually on NiCad settings...and luckily they were SEEN all swollen up and pulled from the charger before they were a safety issue, or any kind of fire started. (HAD THESE been hidden in a LIPO SACK - they most likely WOULD have caught fire, cause nobody would have seen them starting to swell.

Chargers I've seen used that have caused the swelling (again, w/ user error)

ORION Flight Charger
Duratrax ICE Charger

Chargers I've seen taking batteries over 8.44 volts

C.E. GFX
FMA Scorpion
DuraTrax ICE
Orion Flight Charger

But I believe virtually EVERY charger out there w/ multi battery type charging capability can/will OVER CHARGE if set in the wrong charging mode.

ARE heated LIPOS less safe than ROUND Cells? We never had much of an issue w/ the ROUND cells TRACKSIDE - other than a FEW exploding cells... and one box of batteries catching FIRE. We had a lot more issue with those just GOING dead for no apparent reason.

The biggest thing - regardless of what you and/or your track does...is PAY ATTENTION to your packs.

ok so throw safety concerns out with the bath water...

i'm still concerned that heating the lipo to 170 degs will shorten the life of the pack?

i'll throw danny an email and see what he thinks. i do not want to buy new lipos every 2 months.

ok i got a reply from danny and the news is grim!

Most racers have been heating them up to 100-110 that being said that seems to improve the chances of the pack/cells to swell up and may hurt the cycle life.

I reccomend that racers talk to the track owner/race director and mention that heating Lipos shouldn't be allowed. If they are going to check for overcharge it would be very easy to put a temp gun on the pack. This is what the BRL does.

Danny


so joe i got a truce with you and mean this is the nicest way possible...

by allowing the racers in your series to heat the lipos you are allowing them to shorten the cycle life of the lipo packs...you aren't doing them any favors..this is not cost effective racing at it's best...think about it...

so joe i got a truce with you and mean this is the nicest way possible...

by allowing the racers in your series to heat the lipos you are allowing them to shorten the cycle life of the lipo packs...you aren't doing them any favors..this is not cost effective racing at it's best...think about it...

Kat

I agree, but they have that choice....if you talk to them about their savings in battery cost in '08 vs ALL the previous years...most still have perfectly fine working batteries after a full year of racing with them...some, the more 'competition minded' still used several packs, and ran them just a couple months, sold them for approx 1/2 of their purchase price, and bought new. Most only had one or two packs at any given time..and the used packs were sold to other racers who are more budget minded...and they were quite happy to get their packs at roughly 1/2 the NEW price.

Battery life was great
Competition was great
Racers are HAPPY, and in turn - that makes me happy.

Check The Temp On The Pack After You Discharge The Pack After You Run It. Its Well Over 110 Degrees. How Is It Ok To Discharge The Pack In Your Pit After Running It And Not Ok To Heat It Up Before You Run It? If Some Dumbazz Is Heating A Pack To 170 Degrees They Deserve To Have One Catch Flames. Put The Heat Pad In The Lipo Sack And Keep A Check On The Temp Ever So Often. Theres Always That Little Switch That Cuts The Pad Off If It Starts To Get Over 120 And Oh Yeah Its In A Fire Proof Sack.
On The Local Level One Pack Will Do Just Fine With No Heating Or Overcharging And Last The Owner That Doesnt Want To Buy Another Pack A Very Long Time. But The Other 25% Of Racers Will Continue To Show Up At Big Events With New Packs And Treat Them Like Crap To Get The Very Best Out Of Them No Matter What It Costs Or How Long They Last.

all of the sudden heating turned into 170 deg. what a bunch of bull!

Fire Proof sack is the only rules you need it is the racers choice if they want the pack to last longer. Guy pitting in his room at a hotel will charge how he wants surface of the pack will cool and advantage is already in the pack.

No way to tech affectively.


http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g187/fearlessred/th_head_sand.jpg

If Some Dumbazz Is Heating A Pack To 170 Degrees They Deserve To Have One Catch Flames.

I agree with you 100%. But my $1000 I spent to go to the Snowbirds could be ended by this same Dumbazz. How many want to be sent packin after round 2 because some idiot set the sprinkler system off in room 203 and soaked the track.

I will be this first to admit that we are all adding a little drama to Lipo fires. I have yet to see one.

Either Way My Cells Will Be 120 And I Can Make The Case 70-80 No Problem, Like I Said People Already Have The Gears Spinning In Their Heads Just Because This Question Was Asked. I Think Mike Likes To See Who Can Come Up With The Most Innovative Ideas For The Snowbirds.

I bet just cause you have a rule that would make no one heating a sure thing and no fires a sure thing to.

Drama!

Got news for folks, eventually this is going to happen and properly heating a pack won't be the cause. The cause will be bumping the voltage to 8.44 with a GFX in nimh mode and the person forgeting they started it and walking away.

You can't make a rule for every dumb mistake possible or we would never have an event.

A rule like this will only cause some people to be off the pace cause they don't stretch the rules and that is it.

Well, since it WAS Mike who asked the question...I'll assume the main focus is FOR the BIRDS

This is the WORLDS Largest R/C Race - This is THE race where EVERYBODY is trying to WIN at ALL cost - My estimation for the 2008 SNOWBIRDS was that WELL Over ONE MILLION Dollars was spent by the participants who atteneded this race.

If it means getting to say "I'm A Snowbirds Champion" there are guys who will do VIRTUALLY Anything to try to gain some slight advantage, because you all know what the competition level is like at that race.

If it were shown that a LIPO PACK would only work for 6 minutes if charged at 230 degrees, but gave you another .2v output, GUYS would ruin a pack EVERY RUN to try to win THAT race...and so would the COMPANIES who sponsor them.

(NOTE: This is MY OPINION, I'm not saying it's RIGHT or WRONG...just the way guys approach THIS Hobby/Sport)

big race= HEAT
club race= NO HEAT

Hey, there are alternatives for BIG races..but some wouldn't like them...

ALL PACKS are SPEC Hand Out Packs - Randomly drawn from a BOX of charged packs.

30-50 packs should be able to handle a race for a couple hundred people.

RUN THEM - REMOVE THEM FROM CAR - RECHARGE THEM - PUT THEM IN THE BOX

You get YOUR pack when you come to tech. No MESSING, No HEATING, No Re-Peaking, STRAP IT IN - PLUG IT IN - RACE!

Since LIPOS don't loose their performance in rerunning them, if you are running 6-8 car heats, and only using 1500 - 1800 mAh, they would only take 3-4 heats to re-charge. So the 30-50 packs should be able to cover EVERYONE.

(This was how the LIPO Batteries were done at a STRYKER R/C Flying event I went to Last THANKSGIVING.)

Guys did NOT use their OWN batteries, only the batteries from TECH, there was a IN BOX and a OUT BOX, and tech people then recharged the packs in the IN box...and put them in the OUT BOX when charged.

ok lets come back to reality... Mike will make a decision for the birds and it will be a great race like always!! Heat or no heat isnt gonna make or break the event!

i think mike will be forced to allow heating..

i think club races should stop it now.

i think it's a damn shame guys are taking winds off motors...messing with the timming rings and heating lipos up to just about a one run pack..and that doesn't include dead shorting the lipos..another thing i was told is happening.

i'm thinking i canno't aford to race "big" races and will be happy running at my local tracks and hope the guys i race with don't feel the need to do all the tricks of the trade to win a club race.

in the end "big" races anything goes..you spent 1000.00 to race the birds and another 500.00 in one run equipment in order to make the show of a toy car race.

let's pat ourselves on the back now for screwing the pooch yet one more time.

i promise to be the first person on the scene of a lipo fire to piss it out!