I thought it may be a good idea to start a thread where we can ask set up questions and get advise from the pro's out there. I guess time will tell if this was a good idea. Let me start this off with a good one that I have often wondered about.

I have 4 different sway bars for my Pro1. They are all hollow, they start out with a very thin wall and the next is thicker etc. What is the difference and when would you want to run the thin wall and when would you run the thicker one?

if i tell ya they would no longer be set-up secrets...

i think this is a great idea please when you post let everyone know what kinda car you run and/or are talking about, very important to!

well mike,jeff, and brent we are waiting:wave:

John,
The sway bars are very inportant on setup. The stiffer the bar you run tightens the car up and don't let the car role over as much. I like to run stiffer spring and a thin sway bar.
If you run soft springs you may want to go with a thicker bar.
I always use a .028, .035, .049, and .058 Chrome moly tubing. I have a .065 but have never ran it in my Lightning or Bullseye chassis.
My truck witch is a bulleye chassis I run a .049 sway bar and a 18lb. LF and a 14lb. RF.
My Sportsman and Gn car is a Lightning and I run a .028 bar with 25lb.LF and 22lb. RF.
Give it a try and let me know if it helps.
In my pro1 days I ran a .028 bar with a 22lb.LF and 18lb. RF. Maybe that will help.
Just my 2 cents worth.

so take it a step farther.

Is it better on a flat track to run a soft sway bar and harder spring to let the car lean into the corner? A track like Freddies (large and banked) you run a stiffer sway bar and softer springs?

I run the cars as stiff as I can as long as they turn in good. I like a car that stays flat to the track. I run my truck soft in the front because its hard to get them to turn in the corner. so soft springs you have to run a stiff bar to keep the car from rolling over.
I run the same thing just about every were I went this year. Get the car balanced and just change the little stuff like cambers and toe.

I ran stiffer springs and bar at freddies because of the banking. It will compress the car to much with soft spring on front on entree. The bar can't help the spring it help control the roll. If you get soft on the springs on a bank track you will drag the chassis. I run the 25 and 22 with the .035 bar at freddies in my car the day I practiced on the way to royal oaks. The car I ran in the 500 well it wouldn't work on it as well as mine so I changed stuff around but the car never got better. It still wouldn't turn in. In the main the steering servo went out so that was the problem all alone.:confused::freak:so take it a step farther.

Is it better on a flat track to run a soft sway bar and harder spring to let the car lean into the corner? A track like Freddies (large and banked) you run a stiffer sway bar and softer springs?

here is what i use its all anyone needs = Springs
Four coil springs are located at each corner of the chassis. The springs determine how much weight is transferred to each corner of the car. The springs are mounted in such a way that they can be adjusted up or down to change ride heights. Springs are rated by how many pounds it takes to compress the spring

The ideal spring combination is one that would produce equal amounts of wheel travel at all four corners of the car. At all ovals, the heaviest weight is being transferred towards the RF upon entry into a corner. This means the RF corner of the car will travel more requiring a stiffer spring than the other 3 corners. The higher the numbers the stiffer the spring.

An overall softer spring package is usually preferred over a stiffer setup. With a softer setup though, you run the risk of having the car bottom out on the track. This can be cured by using a stiffer sway bar & or raising ride heights. Using softer springs will cause the car to roll over more in the corners. This may require using higher camber angles to compensate for the roll.

In general stiffer front springs will make the car tighter. Stiffer rear springs will loosen the car. Weaker front & rear springs will have just the opposite effect. By changing the spring stagger between the LF & RF as well as the LR & RR, you are able to effect the way the car reacts under acceleration & braking. Spring stagger is the difference in spring rating between the left & right side of the chassis. Running more spring stagger up front, with a weaker left side spring, will tighten the car under acceleration while loosening it under braking. i.e. a 16lb LF spring & a 21lb RF spring. The greater the difference, the greater the chassis response during these transitions. Running more spring stagger in the rear, with a weaker left side spring, will have just the opposite effect as the front. Instead of tightening the car, it will loosen the car under acceleration & tighten it while braking.

The RF & RR springs change the roll couple distribution of the chassis. A stiffer RF spring will make the car tighter. This is because the the stiffer corner won't accept the body roll & will continue forward creating a push. A stiffer RR spring will have just the opposite effect & create a loose condition. The LF & LR springs effect the chassis by changing the wedge or cross weight in the car. A stiffer LF spring will make a car looser going in & coming out of a turn because it takes wedge out of the car. A stiffer LR spring will tighten the car from the middle, out of a corner because it keeps cross weight in the car.

You'll notice that when making a spring change either stiffer or weaker, it will have the same effect on the chassis as it's diagonal opposite corner. In other words, if you decide to make the RF spring weaker to help loosen the car, you could also make the diagonal opposite corner (LR) weaker to also help loosen the car. In all actuality, what your doing by changing both diagonal corners together, is changing the wedge or cross weight of the chassis. Try to remember the diagonal corners as pairs. And that whatever one pair does, the opposite pair will have the opposite effect. Using this method makes remembering what spring does what a little easier. In reality then, all you have to remember is what one spring adjustment does, and you should remember how all the others corners are effected.

Let me give you an example. Just remember that a stiffer RF spring equals a tighter condition. Now I know that diagonally a stiffer LR spring also equals a tighter condition. Now a stiffer RR & LF (diagonally) would have just the opposite effect (loose) on the chassis. Now if I have a loose race car, I now know I can try a stiffer RF or LR spring, or a weaker RR or LF spring. All will help to tighten the chassis. I remember all this by simply knowing that a stiffer RF spring equals a tighter race car.

As you can see, it's really easy to get confused over what spring does what & how their strength or weakness effect a chassis while cornering. Let's try to put it in it's simplest form.

Spring synopsis:

Weaker LF will make the car tight.

Weaker RR will make the car tight.

Weaker RF will make the car loose.

Weaker LR will make the car loose.

Stiffer RF will make the car tight.

Stiffer LR will make the car tight.

Stiffer LF will make the car loose.

Stiffer RR will make the car loose.

Overall stiffer front springs will make the car tight.

Overall stiffer back springs will make the car loose.

Overall weaker front springs will make the car loose.

Overall weaker back springs will make the car tight.

Increasing front spring stagger will tighten the car under acceleration & loosen it under braking.

Increasing rear spring stagger will loosen the car under acceleration & tighten it under braking. (This will become more apparent as the RF tire wears and may cause the chassis to snap lose in the latter stages of a tire/fuel run)

Tire Temperatures
When I talk about the inside of each tire, I'm referring to the edge closest to the inside of the car. When I refer to the outside edge of each tire, I'm referring to those edges that are furthest from the outside of the car. Tires are marked within NASCAR Racing as O for outside, M for middle, & I for inside.

I previously mentioned that every adjustment we attempt to make on a racecar, is an attempt to try an maximize the grip of each tire. By taking tire temperatures of each tire we can "read" how well our chassis is performing. A good tire man can tell how a racecar is handling without ever watching it perform on the track & without even talking to the driver. Tire temperatures are the only scientific proof we have of how a chassis is working. It's easy for a driver to misinterpret how a car is handling. Tire temperatures eliminate that mystery by telling us which corner of the car is over or under worked.

The information I am going to discuss below, is what I've learned over the years working on real race cars. Some of the tire testing information I will mention below has given me various results. Some of this information transfers rather well. Use this information to the best of your advantage to better understand the concept behind reading tire temperatures.

Tire temperatures are taken with a tool called a tire pyrometer. This tool is inserted into the tire on the inside, middle, & outside of each tire to give us readings across the surface of the tire. By comparing tire temperatures across the surface of the front tires we are able to tell if we have proper camber angles, proper toe, proper weight distribution. By reading the average temperature of the RF & comparing it to the average temperature of the RR we can tell if the chassis is loose or tight. Comparing diagonal averages indicate the proper amount of wedge in the chassis.

The optimal tire temperatures should be in a range of 100 to 180 degrees. Keep in mind that the hotter the tire the quicker it will wear out. It's important to realize what the outside & inside of each tire is. The inside of each tire is the edge closest to the inside of the car. The outside edge of each tire are those edges that are furthest from the inside the car.

On a short track it is normal for the outside edge of the RF tire & the inside edge of the LF to be 5 to 10 degrees cooler. This is because of the way the tires travel down the straightaway. On a larger track with longer straights, this spread will be even further. On an oval, the RF tire will have more negative camber, thus resulting in the inside edge of the tire contacting the track more than the outside edge giving you the higher temperature. On the LF you will run with more positive camber, so just the opposite holds true. While cornering these temperatures should even out if you have the correct amounts of camber & or weight transfer. The more camber you run, the higher these spreads will be. On a small track were you spend a lot of time cornering, you'll find the spread not as high. This is because your spending more time cornering than on the straights, thus distributing the temperatures across the face of the tire more evenly. If you try to achieve even temps across the tire you may develop a push. This is telling you that you have too much positive camber. Although the tire may be flat on the track, on a straightaway, the tire will not be flat on the track while cornering.

By comparing the average temperature of all four tires you can see which corner of the chassis is working harder than the other. To figure the average temperature of a tire, add the 3 temps across the tire & divide by three. If your RF is a lot hotter than the other three tires your probably pushing because the RF is doing too much work. Work on cooling that tire off by lowering the RF spring and allowing the other tires to share some of the work load. By comparing the RF average to the RR average you can tell if the chassis is loose or tight. The RF should be about 10 degrees hotter than the RR. If it's higher your probably pushing. If it's lower your loose. A tire is being under worked when it's temperature is a lot lower than the other three tires. When a tire is cooler or under worked, try concentrating on that corner of the car. Try adding weight to that corner of the car to increase the temperature of that tire. If a tire is a lot hotter than the other 3 work on making that tire cooler.

It's also informative to compare right & left side, front & rear, as well as diagonal averages. Print & use the tire temperature sheet I've provided to help track all this information. To see if you have the proper wedge, average the RF & LR tires & compare them to the two front averages & two right side averages. Your diagonal average should be 5 to 10 degrees cooler than both the front & right side averages. If it is warmer you have too much cross weight. If it's cooler then you need more cross weight or wedge.

The best way to decipher tire temperatures is to run 10 laps on a particular setup & monitor tire temps. Don't expect to learn everything reading the temps only once. It will take a number of 10 lap sessions to sort everything out that is going on with the tires. When analyzing tire temperatures it should be done in a specific order. This is because a problem in one area may mask a problem in another area. Here is what I do.

Run 10 laps, adjust front cambers.

Adjust toe if needed. Run 10 laps.

Adjust wedge. Run 10 laps..

Adjust for tight or loose condition based on RF & RR average. Run 10 laps.

Look for overheated or overworked tire. Adjust on that corner. Run 10 laps.

Repeat the process all over again. Run 10 more laps.

When checking tire temperatures it is important to make sure your not locking up the brakes or making any sudden changes in your steering outputs. These will all create erroneous tire temperatures readings. Let me try to simplify how to read tire temperatures by giving you this guideline.

A tire with too much NEGATIVE camber will show an excessively higher temperature at the INSIDE edges.

A tire with too much POSITIVE camber will show an excessively higher temperature at the OUTSIDE edges.

A car with too much toe OUT will show higher temperatures on both INSIDE edges of the front tires.

A car with too much toe IN will show higher temperatures on both OUTSIDE edges of the front tires.

A RF tire that is HOTTER by more than 10 degrees over the RR indicates a tight condition.

A RF tire that is COLDER by more than 10 degrees over the RR indicates a loose condition.

A tire with the HIGHEST average temperature is the corner of the car that is being most worked.

A tire with the LOWEST average temperature is the corner of the car that is being least worked.

A RF & LR diagonal average that is the same or higher than the front & right side average indicates too much wedge.

A RF & LR diagonal average that is more than 10 degrees lower than the front & right side average indicates not enough wedge.

Let me reiterate once again that the results you see may vary. Using these guidelines will give you a better idea of what your trying to achieve & should get you in the ball park of a quicker more stable setup.

Lets look at a few examples.

RF
I----M----O
208--202--194
Indicates too much negative camber.

RF
I----M----O
194--202--208
Indicates too much positive camber.

RF
I----M----O
204--198--194
Indicates correct camber. Overall average temp is 198.6.

RR
I----M----O
227--225--223
Overall average temp. is 225.
If the RR & RF temp above came off the same car we would have a very loose racecar. The RR is approximately 26 degrees hotter than the RF. If this RR is also the hottest tire on the car, it indicates the RR is doing the majority of the work in the corners. This is the corner of the chassis I would work on. We need to take some weight of this corner to cool this tire. I'd start by going with a weaker RR spring. This should cool this tire & tighten up the chassis.

RF
I----M----O
215--192--186
Outside edge is too cool indicating we need more positive camber. Average temp. is 197.6. Let's compare this with the RR below taken on the same car.

RR
I----M----O
190--188--186
Average temp. is 188. This tire is 10 degrees cooler than the RF indicating a neutral handling chassis. This should be good, but we could be faster with a camber change on the RF. Let's adjust the camber on the RF, run another 10 laps & take temps again below.

RF
I----M----O
200--195--190
Camber looks much better now. The average temp is 195.

RR
I----M----O
192--190--188
Average temp. is 190, but now when we compare the average of the RF & RR we find our temperatures too close to each other. After the camber adjustment we no longer have a neutral handling car, but one that is now on the verge of becoming loose. Your general feeling may be that the camber change made the handling worse, and it very well may of. But were still heading in the proper direction. You may have to take a step backwards at 1st to take 2 steps forward later. We can now work on increasing the temp of the RF or work on cooling the RR to increase our average split between the RF & RR. To increase the heat in the RF try a stiffer spring. To decrease the heat in the RR try a weaker spring. Either way you will make the car tighter. How much of a change depends on how much it changes your tire temps. Run another 10 laps & review your temperatures again. Eventually you should be faster than your neutral handling setup with improper camber in the RF.

As you can see from the above example there isn't always an immediate cure. Chassis setup is sort of like solving a puzzle. Experiment & learn as you test. Always keep in mind that you may be going the correct way, but there could be an adjustment elsewhere that may be masking your initial change. Because of this chassis setup can become very frustrating for the novice and experienced alike. For every change you believe your making for the better, it will have an adverse effect elsewhere in the chassis. If for example your car feels great going into & through the middle of a corner, but is loose on exit, you have to tighten it up somehow. Curing the loose condition exiting the corner now has probably messed up your chassis going into the turn. Now you must loosen it up again. It's a constant battle of give & take. Hopefully by monitoring tire temperatures you can eliminate some of the mystery of how & why a chassis is reacting like it does.

Tire Temperature synopsis:

Optimal temp range is between 130-160 degrees.

The hotter the tire the quicker it will wear.

The hottest tire on the car is the tire that is being worked the most. The coolest tire is the least worked.

Work on the corner of the chassis that is either the most overworked or least worked 1st.

A tire with too much NEGATIVE camber will show an excessively higher temperature at the INSIDE edges.

A tire with too much POSITIVE camber will show an excessively higher temperature at the OUTSIDE edges.

A car with too much toe OUT will show higher temperatures on both INSIDE edges of the front tires.

A car with too much toe IN will show higher temperatures on both OUTSIDE edges of the front tires.

A RF tire that is HOTTER by more than 10 degrees over the RR indicates a tight condition.

A RF tire that is COLDER by more than 10 degrees over the RR indicates a loose condition.

A tire with the HIGHEST average temperature is the corner of the car that is being most worked.

A tire with the LOWEST average temperature is the corner of the car that is being least worked.

A RF & LR diagonal average that is the same or higher than the front & right side average indicates too much wedge.

A RF & LR diagonal average that is more than 10 degrees lower than the front & right side average indicates not enough wedge.




Wedge
Wedge is also known as cross weight or diagonal weight. Wedge is the total weight of the RF & LR corners divided by the cars total weight. Wedge is used to keep the back of the car tight entering a corner while also adding bite exiting a corner.

The total amount of wedge required depends on track size & roll couple in the car. A setup that will spin it's tires easily will require more wedge to counter act the traction loss under power. A setup with a higher gear ratio or one that does not spin the tires will require less wedge. Wedge is required to get through the corners. Excessive amounts of wedge can slow the car down & wear the RF & LR tires prematurely.

Where as changing the front & left side bias is done by moving lead ballast, changing the wedge is done by screwing up or down on load nuts located over the RF & LR shocks. You might think that by changing wedge you would change left side or front bias, but that isn't the case. No matter how you adjust the wedge the left & front bias will always remain the same. Increasing wedge will tighten the chassis. Decreasing wedge will loosen the chassis.

Wedge synopsis:

Increasing wedge tightens the chassis.

Decreasing wedge loosens the chassis.

TROUBLESHOOTING

Chassis adjustments & possible causes
This section will list excessive chassis adjustments & what there effect on the chassis & or handling of the car will be. Please use this section only as a general guide. You may not see the same exact results as mentioned below. Other component settings may mask changes made in different areas. Adjustments in other areas may be needed first before you see some of the changes indicated below in certain areas. All troubleshooting answers assume the rest of the chassis is already set correctly or close to being correct.

CAMBER

Too much negative RF camber:

Inside of tire excessively hot.

Car turns into a corner too quickly or becomes loose.

Too much negative LF camber:

Inside of tire excessively hot.

Reduced pull to the left entering a corner.

Chassis will tighten up from the middle out.

Too much negative RR camber:

Inside of tire excessively hot.

Tight condition from the middle out.

Too much negative LR camber:

Inside of tire excessively hot.

Loose condition entering a corner.

Too much positive RF camber:

Outside of tire excessively hot.

Car turns into a corner too slowly & feels tight.

Too much positive LF camber:

Outside of tire excessively hot.

Increased pull to the left entering a corner.

Chassis will loosen up from the middle out.

Too much positive RR camber:

Outside of tire excessively hot.

Loose condition from the middle out.

Too much positive LR camber:

Outside of tire excessively hot.

Tight condition entering a corner.

CASTER

Too much caster:

Car is more difficult to steer, more servo effort is required.

Car will tend to loosen up the more the wheel is turned.

Not enough caster:

Car too sensitive, steering becomes twitchy.

less servo effort is required to turn.

Excessive caster stagger:

Harder to steer in one direction than the other.

Car will pull towards the side with less caster.

Car will be loose entering a corner.

GEAR RATIO

Too high a ratio:

High rpms, potential for a blown engine.

Loss of traction or wheel spin when accelerating.

Loss of top speed at the end of a straight-away.

Too low a ratio:

Low rpms.

slow off the corners and restarts

Car is sluggish upon acceleration.

Car is under powered.

FRONT BIAS

Too much front bias:

Will cause car to push.

Not enough front bias:

Will cause car to be loose.

FRONT SWAY BAR

Too large a bar:

Car is stiff, unstable & does not roll while cornering.

Car pushes through the corners.

Front may tend to slide & not take set.

Car may get tighter as you progress through turn.

Too small a bar:

Car rolls excessively while cornering & could bottom out on the RF.

Back of the car is hard to control & is real loose.

Car is slow to respond when changing directions.

FRONT TOE OUT

Too much toe out:

Car is difficult to turn into corner.

uses power

Car may not take set in the corner.

Car will want to push.

Car may wander under heavy braking.

Too much toe in:

Car turns into a corner quicker than it should with very little wheel movement.
uses power

Car will is loose upon entry into a corner & is generally unstable.

LEFT BIAS

Too much left bias:

Will cause car to pull to the left.

Car will turn left much easier than right.

Car will loosen itself up when negotiating left hand turns.

Not enough left bias:

Car will not turn left into a turn as easy.

Car will turn right much more easier.

Car will be tight when negotiating left hand turns.



RIDE HEIGHT

Too low a ride height:

Car will bottom out.

On the RF,LF, & RR the car will feel loose.

On the rear will increase straightaway speeds.

Too high a ride height:

On the LR will loosen the chassis.

On the LR may cause the RF to bottom out.

On the RF will tighten the chassis.

On the rear will increase rear traction & bite.

SHOCKS

Front shocks too stiff:

Car will push entering the corner while braking.

Car will also push while accelerating exiting a corner.

Front shocks too weak:

Car will be loose entering a corner while braking.

Car will also be loose exiting a corner while under acceleration.

Rear shocks too stiff:

Car will be loose entering a corner while braking.

Car will also be loose exiting a corner while under acceleration.

Rear shocks too weak:

Car will push entering the corner while braking.

Car will also push while accelerating exiting a corner.

SPOILER

Too high a spoiler:

You'll notice slower straight-away speeds.

Chassis will feel tight while cornering.

Too low a spoiler:

Quicker straight-away speeds.

Chassis will be loose while cornering.

SPRINGS

Front springs too stiff:

Car will Understeer.

Car be stiff & unresponsive.

Front springs too weak:

Car will Understeer.

Front of car will dive entering a corner & may bottom out while braking.

Excessive body roll.

Mid turn push.

Rear springs too stiff:

Car will Oversteer when accelerating.

Excessive wheelspin.

Rear springs too weak:

Car will Understeer.

Excessive rear squat when accelerating possibly bottoming out.

Car will roll over onto the RR.

Car may be slow to take a set.

RF too stiff:

Car will push or Understeer.

RF too weak:

Car will be loose or Understeer.

LF too stiff:

Car will be loose or Understeer.

LF too weak:

Car will push or Understeer.

RR too stiff:

Car will be loose or Understeer.

RR too weak:

Car will push or Understeer.

LR too stiff:

Car will push or Understeer.

LR too weak:

Car will be loose or Understeer.

GEAR RATIO

Too high a ratio:

High rpms, potential for a blown engine.

Loss of traction or wheel spin when accelerating.

Loss of top speed at the end of a straight-away

Too low a ratio:

Low rpms.

Car is sluggish upon acceleration

Car is under powered.

WEDGE

Too much:

Car will push.

Prematurely worn RF & LR tires.

Not enough:

Car will be loose.

RF & LR tires not carrying there fair share of the load.


Handling problems & possible causes
This section will list various handling problems & what might be causing those handling problems. Please use this section only as a general guide. You may not see the same exact results as mentioned below. Other component settings may mask changes made in different areas. Adjustments in other areas may be needed first before you see some of the changes indicated below in certain areas. All troubleshooting answers assume the rest of the chassis is already set correctly or close to being correct.

CAR iS UNSTABLE

Excessive front toe.

Too soft a shock.

Too much camber stagger.

Excessive front or rear bias.

Not enough caster

Excessive caster stagger.

Front sway bar too stiff.

Excessive front or rear brake bias.

Fuel load had changed. .

Too low a ride height

Spoiler too low.

Wrong springs.

CAR iS UNRESPONSIVE

Springs too soft.

Shocks too soft.

Front sway bar.

Too much caster

CAR iS OVER RESPONSIVE

Springs too stiff.

Shocks too soft.

Front sway bar to stiff.

CAR IS LOOSE ENTERING CORNER

Too much stagger.

Not enough toe out.

Too much negative RF camber.

Too much positive LF camber.

RR camber too high.

Too much caster stagger.

RF caster too high.

Not enough front brake bias.

Not enough front bias.

Front sway bar too small.

LR ride height too high.

LR shock rebound too stiff.

LF shock compression too soft.

RR shock rebound too stiff.

Front shock compression too soft.

Rear shock rebound too stiff.

Spoiler too low.

Front springs too weak.

Front spring stagger to high.

Rear springs too stiff.

RF spring too soft.

RR spring too stiff.

Front spring stagger too high.

Steering ratio too high.

RF caster too high.

Wedge too low.

Driver error. (erratic throttle & steering inputs)

CAR IS LOOSE IN THE MIDDLE OF A CORNER

Wedge too low.

RF spring too soft.

RR spring too stiff.

Too much rear spring stagger.

Front sway bar too soft.

Stagger too high.

Excessive front toe (in or out)

Improper camber settings.

Not enough negative LF camber.

Excessive positive camber in the RR.

Too much positive caster.

Too high a gear ratio causing wheel spin.

LF shock compression too low.

LR shock rebound too high.

RR shock compression too high.

Spoiler too low.

Driver error. Compensating for a corner entry push.

CAR IS LOOSE EXITING A CORNER

Too much stagger.

Wedge too low.

LF caster too low.

Too much positive LF camber.

LR spring too soft.

RR spring too stiff.

Decrease rear spring stagger.

Too high a gear ratio causing wheel spin.

Too small a front sway bar.

Excessive front toe (in or out).

Too stiff a rear sway bar.

LR ride height too high.

Rear shock compression too stiff.

Front shock rebound too soft.

Spoiler too low.

Rear spring stagger too high.

Front springs too weak.

Rear springs too stiff.

Driver error. (erratic throttle & steering inputs)

CAR PUSHES ENTERING CORNER

Not enough stagger.

Too much toe out.

Not enough negative RF camber.

Not enough positive LF camber.

Not enough caster stagger.

Too much front brake bias.

Too much front bias.

Front sway bar too stiff

LR ride height too low.

LR shock rebound too weak.

Front shock compression too stiff.

Rear shock rebound too weak.

Spoiler angle too high.

Front springs too stiff.

Front spring stagger to low.

Rear springs too weak.

RF spring too stiff.

RR spring too soft.

Front spring stagger too low.

Steering ratio too low.

RF caster too low.

Wedge too high.

Driver error.

CAR IS TIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A CORNER

Wedge too high.

RF spring too stiff.

RR spring too soft.

Not enough rear spring stagger.

Front sway bar too stiff.

Stagger too low.

Excessive front toe (in or out)

Improper camber settings.

Too much negative LF camber.

Not enough positive camber in the RR.

Not enough positive caster.

Too low a gear ratio.

LF shock compression too high.

LR shock rebound too low.

RR shock compression too low.

Spoiler too high.

Driver error. Compensating for corner entry looseness.

CAR PUSHES EXITING A CORNER

Not enough stagger.

Wedge too high.

LR spring too stiff.

RR spring too soft.

Too low a gear ratio.

Too much front bias.

Too large a front sway bar.

Excessive front toe (in or out).

Not enough positive LF camber.

Too small a rear sway bar.

LR ride height too low.

Rear shock compression too soft.

Front shock rebound too stiff.

RR shock compression too low.

Spoiler too high.

Rear spring stagger too low.

Front springs too stiff.

Rear springs too soft.

Did you copy and paste that. :freak: I know you didn't write that. Its all spelled right. :lol:

Remove this part of the information as it does not apply to BRP tires.
RF
I----M----O
204--188--197
Indicates an under inflated tire.

RF
I----M----O
204--210--197
Indicates an over inflated tire.

Here is a link to in depth racecar setup information if you can interpret technical information without many illustrations....it has some. Though this site is a online racing site, the information can be somewhat useful.


http://www.racelinecentral.com/RacingSetupGuide.html

Remove this part of the information as it does not apply to BRP tires.


Here is a link to in depth racecar setup information if you can interpret technical information without many illustrations....it has some. Though this site is a online racing site, the information can be somewhat useful.


http://www.racelinecentral.com/RacingSetupGuide.html (http://www.racelinecentral.com/RacingSetupGuide.html[/quote) good eye tim i did not notice that

Did you copy and paste that. :freak: I know you didn't write that. Its all spelled right. :lol:i know you aint busting on nobody for spelling i can go do some copy and pasting on this thread from you but we are just alike cant figure out how to use the HT spell checker to make us look like we know how to spell because i dont remember crap from school other than smoking funny things and that girl cant think of her name LOL

BILL SCOTT did all the typing its some dam good info it waxed your tail more than once i know theres a lot of folks on here that might find it intertaning

On the flat tracks I like using the new WCM ZR tires at any temp , yes they do grind alittle [ on the surface] and wear faster than a L20 , On the banked track I use BRP L20's OR L30's depending on the track temps , On my WCM Cage car ,I use a .068 chrome molly Sway bar 25LBS springs up front most of the time , 25lb rr 12lb lr I feel ride height is very importan ,I also like playin with the caster , It has worked for me and it is a easy adjustment to do on the wcm chassis [ mostly left front ] Robert :thumbsup:

BILL SCOTT did all the typing its some dam good info it waxed your tail more than once i know theres a lot of folks on here that might find it intertaning

Will
I cant take credit for this, I am not that smart ! . Thats why I am studying this tread !!!!!

Most of it was done by professional full size car people

But it does translate to 1/4 scale cars

Bill Scott

well at least take credit for getting it out there bill but it is some very good info that actually works and teaches you on some issues you may have with the car and as far as setting up a car i rate myself about a 2 out of 1 threw 10 if it dont work throw everything at it till it does is my normal setup

I thank you for the setup information, I copied it into Word.
I plan on getting a 1/4 scale car this winter,
this information will be most helpful, and maybe some will help on my 1/10 scale car.
if nothing else I may learn something. lol.

Chuck

I thank you for the setup information, I copied it into Word.
I plan on getting a 1/4 scale car this winter,
this information will be most helpful, and maybe some will help on my 1/10 scale car.
if nothing else I may learn something. lol.

Chuckyou will be fine chuck last year was my first year at it once you race one thats all you want to do that 10th scale stuff loses its luster when you get behind the wheel of a racecar and not a flat peace of graphite:thumbsup:

you will be fine chuck last year was my first year at it once you race one thats all you want to do that 10th scale stuff loses its luster when you get behind the wheel of a racecar and not a flat peace of graphite:thumbsup:

Amen
LOL don't want to race anything else anymore. its this or nothing.

Amen
LOL don't want to race anything else anymore. its this or nothing.

How true, how true. :thumbsup:

ok guys we need to keep this up at the top to help everybody out we need more input than what is posted all ready we dont need "this one time at bandcamp"stuff either LOL :thumbsup:

how about some shock secrets. like what you prefer for fluid. how to keep them in tip top shape at all times. what to look for when you have shocks that aren't working.
or you car has been good all this time without any wrecks, but now the handling sucks.
what would be a clue that its a shock and not setup, what to look for before you
start wrenching the on the car and tuning a good setup out.

these are the secrets will help others. how to troubleshoot. car was good and now
it isn't .
share your experiances. i will . but have to go for now.

Always ck your shocks to make sure one end has not popped off of pivot mount.

I will always change fluid and bleed all shocks before every race day. Good habit to get into.Plus keep those shafts clean and smooth.

Make sure the pivot balls in the shock hiems are not binding either they need to move freely, polish the shock shafts to a smooth,shiny finish , maintain clean oil and full in the shocks ,,try to keep air out of the shock oil ,
Check the hiems on the sway bar links to a-arms also they need to move freely ,this one is very important ,I seen it first hand the car would go in good but come off loose ,It was also causing his chassis to bottom out in the front ,one ball was locked in the plastic 6-32 heim ,He changed it and had a bunch better driving car . Robert

1/4 Scale Graphics make set up sheets and they are downloadable from most 1/4 scale race or club sites. These sheets will provide a racer with repeatability and that is what I would consider the most important race secret.

After creating a base line for your car you write down all the information available on these sheets, which will be a lot of information. From this base line you will be able to create repeatability for different times of the year, daylight or dark races, tire compounds, spring rates, shock oil, roll out, wedge, Toe. Now when you put your car onto the track at least you know it will at least turn left and at least be competative.

Just remember small amounts of change will effect our cars handling, either good or bad and it's always best to know what you did to make your car either a Rocket or a Rock!

I finally got competitive on the track and consistency improved when I set my RR toe in 1/16" and LR out 1/16". It makes the rear follow the nose around the corners. I rarely get loose off this way.

Make reference marks on the frame rails where you take measurements for ride height, toe, ect. so you always measure at the exact same spot.

Very interesting. I have a theory on the toe in toe out on the read end. I will also give you some insight on some of what the other top drivers are doing in this regard:

First, with what dpopham said about toeing the RR in while toeing the LR out, I would have to say that his whole car is probably setup loose to begin with. This is not to say that is bad, in fact it probably suites his driving style and it works for him.

I on the other hand will do just the opposite. My whole car is setup tight, bc that is what I like. Loose seems to be easy to get too, and usually wins out in a long race anyway.

I know that Jeff Davis likes to keep the RR dead nut 0 and only toes in the LR as needed. We all know that the LR drives the car and makes the most movement because of the torque the motor puts out. He likes to drive real head off the corners too. Kind of hard to argue with that, the dude is just plain fast.

Randy Brown and Brent Gottfried all do a little of both, but it seems to me they move the trailing arms in and out to accomplish some of the same stuff, but they still have other things they do, (I'm still pumping them for info on that).

What I have found is you can tighten a car up by making the front higher than the back (don't need much) and you can also make it more tight by making the right side longer than the left, but how much and where it is tight is the key.

All of this is subjective depending on what car you have and the basic setup you have to start with.

I looked real heard at Scrampski's car, and could not believe how free his car is. The thing has to have the best shocks in the world. The spring setup is so light,that if I put that setup in my car, it would bottom out the whole way around the track. But I'm working on that...

The bottom line here is, the rear steers the car more than the front does. I know, I know, but it is true.

Also, clean is fast. I don't take as much time as I should, and it is hard to find the time to do it, but you have to go through the car all the time. You find stuff that is bent, wore out, missing, or just plain (WTF) I thought I had something else in there.... Happens all the time.

Allmost forgot, check the tires, they make the biggest difference in a car. I had a setup that I know was fast because I was in the 6.7's at my home track the week before. I did not change a thing and put the car in the track the next week and could not figure out why I was so loose. I'd just get the loosness out and it would be back until I finaly hit the wall backwards so hard, I bent the left rear trailing arm in half. I put it back together and and came back the next race week and the car was on a rail. I looked closer at the right rear (that i changed just for the heck of it) and the thing was comming apart at the ends. Not much, but enough to make a difference in the handeling big time.

Hey Will
Share your bump steer secrets with us!!!!

Hey Will
Share your bump steer secrets with us!!!!i have none :wave:

In my opinion...rear steer is a bit of a bandaid. I believe in aligning the right side tires (distance from center of the chassis) and toeing in the RR about a 1/16" and the LR straight up. I have gotten a lot better forward bite like this.


Chance

In my opinion...rear steer is a bit of a bandaid. I believe in aligning the right side tires (distance from center of the chassis) and toeing in the RR about a 1/16" and the LR straight up. I have gotten a lot better forward bite like this.


Chanceyep!!!:thumbsup:

on bump steer if the chassis you have has it shim the left front steering arm down until its out

Ok guys, It look great to see everyones input.

Jim don't tell all my setup secrets. LOL

Alot of setup is for different driving styles. I like a car that is real free and alot of people like a tighter car than I do. Its really had to put it on paper with out seeing and driving the car. Their are a 100 different thing that could cause a car to be to loose or tight. The best thing to do is if you are having trouble at your home track get someone that is running up front to help you. I try to help everyone I can at my home tracks and at NCS races also. I would like to see everyone have a fast car.

Now on the shock deal. I would say give me a call and get you a set off INVADER shock and the shock problem will go away. LOL

I change the oil in my shocks about every 6 to 8 races. As long as the car is good that is. The main thing on a shock is to make sure it stays dry. If you have a shock that is staying wet on the bottom get you some new seals and FIX IT. It will save you a lot of time on the setup table. Make sure the springs are not draging on the shock this will upset the cars Suspension and you will chase a car all over for a setup. If the springs are dragging get you some new springs that fit the shock better. They may be worn out or bent. When you rebiuld a shock they should be smooth in and out no tight spots. If you have a tight spot you have a problem. Maybe a bent shaft, trash in the oil, bad o-ring, bad bushing,or even a bad piston. FIX IT!!! The shock has to be smooth to do its job.

Oils depends on what shock you have, driving style, what kind of oil you are useing, and what chassis you are running. The INVADER shock I run 10 in all of them but the left rear and I run 5 in it. This may work for you and it may not. With this oil the car doesn't have much rebound so you have to be smooth on the wheel. If your not the car will start in the corner and the front of the car will come back up before you need it to and the car will push in the center and off. Put a little heavier oil in the front and it will help that problem. If the car is loose off the corner put a little heavier oil in the Right rear.
This is what works for me and I have had great sucsess with the INVADER shock this year. This may be a waste of time for you but its my 2 cents worth.

Jeff, would that I could LOL:devil:
Jeff is right, (again, dang it). Shocks can and are a huge part of the setup, but again it all depends on how you drive, and what car you have. It is real hard to put on paper what works 80% to 90% of the time because there are alot of things that come into play with any R/C car. The radio is another issue that can make or break a setup. You could have the best setup in the world on the car, but if your radio has all the steering in it and is so touchy, you will never be able to get a good run.

It all takes time and effort to learn what works for you. That is not to say that what was written here will not work for any given person reading these posts. Chance is also correct (the dude is just fast and lives for racing). He obviously works harder on the basic setup and comes to the track prepared, so there are fewer adjustments that he has to make.

Again, the point is that preparation is the key. Some are better than others at it (I suspect it will always be that way) but we can all learn from each other. Like Jeff said, he likes a car that is real free, where I like a car that is a bit tight and gets more free in a long race. But that is my driving style and it sometimes is hard to stay on top of.

These two guys are definitely in the top 5 in the country, so I'm listening. They are quickly talking me into changing my shocks to the INVADER shock setup. I will still have to make the adjustments and get the car how I like it. As soon as I can afford it, I'll get a set. In the mean time I have the WCM aluminum shock body (Some of the first 10 sets made) and a K1E new in 2005. I purchased it just as Rick moved into his new shop.

It's the only quarter pounder I've ever had, so for now I'm sticking with it. I have a bunch of fun and can't wait till next year. I hope the economy gets better soon. I'd love to travel south and race once or twice over the winter. Unfortunately the wife took the man card and I'm trying to earn race time by (get this) painting the house. I'd rather wipe my butt with a cheese grater.:eek:

jim i have the invader shocks on my cage car they work very well

jeff you forgot the 2nd most important thing, tires they are just as important as the shocks.if a tire has a soft spot,or the host takes a crap,if your staggers are to much or not enough wright compound for track surface and track temp all these things effect your setup just as much i have seem many chase a car setup and it wound up being a tire issue

Amen. On the tires.

I ran the same tires on my Super Truck all season except the Right Rear!!! I went through a few of them. LOL The tires are very important. I run the 410 RR every were I go and race. The only difference is the host. Med. for cold temps (70 to 80). Ferm for warm temps (80 to 110). and ferm with the cevlar belting for hot track temps 110 +. Thats me and some people hat the 410. It just takes a few lap to come in and then you can lean on it as hard as you like. Every now and then I let some people talk me into running something different. The best thing is to fine the tire that is good for you setup. I like the 405 also but it has to be cold, track temps of 50's and 60's. I know some of the guys up north may run something different with the different temps.
Just my 2 cent worth.

jeff you forgot the 2nd most important thing, tires they are just as important as the shocks.if a tire has a soft spot,or the host takes a crap,if your staggers are to much or not enough wright compound for track surface and track temp all these things effect your setup just as much i have seem many chase a car setup and it wound up being a tire issue

Jeff are you burning up c5's or wearing them out ? Is that the reason for the 410 Thanks Robert

I have still burned up a 410 also but the car was to loose and I wouldn't quit. MY FAULT!!!:thumbsup:
I like the 410 over the C-5 just me I guess.;)

Jeff are you burning up c5's or wearing them out ? Is that the reason for the 410 Thanks Robert

Boy Jeff you let the cat out of the bag or is that a sack in the South now everyone will know about the cevlar belting.

jeff dont hide anything if he did i would not beat him every other time he comes to LPR LOL

The last word I got was BRP [Todd] wasnt doing anymore cevlar side walls or making anymore 19 1/4 c5's either , I guess if we all start askin him to maybe he will start again ,,,,Robert

He will make anything but you have to pay for it. The cevlar is a few dollors more.

I don't hold back. I will help anyone, they just need to ask.:thumbsup:
Yes it's a sack down south and it has a hole in the bottom. LOL
Hope al Ya'll have a good winter and come on down and race with us. Maybe thats why, we race 10 months out of the year:rolleyes:.
Boy Jeff you let the cat out of the bag or is that a sack in the South now everyone will know about the cevlar belting.

And meanwhile, they will be pushing snow etc, while we just push one another around the track. Are we having fun yet? ROTFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the South woulda won we woulda had it made!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like we done did.

It just gives us a little more time go through ours and keep them faster than those southern dudes. ROFLMBO

Get ready Slider, my calender is marked I'm coming for ya. LOL

Joey

Joey. Can't wait big buddy. The Slider mobile is oh so ready.:woohoo:

John, Im only a second year 1/4 scale racer, but my speed secret that I have stumbled upon by accident is to go really really fast down the straightaway, turn left, blurp the throttle, get back in the throttle, go through the rest of the turn, straighten the wheel out, go really really fast down the back straightaway, repeat same thing as in last turn as many times as needed while driving a good line. Hope this helps! (Man it is way way to early to be this bored!)