why do oval kits cost so much?

On the On Road side there are several car companies out the offering 1/10th kits they are all under $300 cheapest is $269 most expensive $299

oval side

the cheapest is $325 most expensive is $380

more shocks is one thing

Simple, basic Supply and Demand

more shocks is one thing

how do you figure that, we are running 3 shocks vs. 4 shocks for the tc cars.

you know we spend $350 on a kit then spend another 100-150 in upgrades just to get the car to compete

how do you figure that, we are running 3 shocks vs. 4 shocks for the tc cars.



I think Dave is referring to on-road pan cars, not touring cars.

Touring cars are $380-$520. I just checked stormer.

yah I was refering to 1/10th pancars

superior is selling CW kits for $275 and KSG for I think $300

wow 275 for the cw that is awesome the 300 for the ksg has to be the gen2 because lefthander has the gen3 for $380

yea it's the gen 2. the slider CW is also $300

davepull,
You and anyone else please feel free to produce a complete kit so you can learn why they cost so much.

Dave Irrgang

Dave I never said it was cheap just wondering why the on road guys can do it cheaper

Dave,
If you look at the onroad cars they do not have half the adjustments the oval cars have. Oval requires more parts and more machining than onroad.
Racers want the products to cost what they did over 5 years ago. The cost of materials and machine time has gone up more than 100%. Please don't say you understand because if everyone did understand questions like these would not get asked.
I could shave a few dollars off of our car if I sent the work overseas but I won't do that. You get what you pay for.

Dave

Dave,
If you look at the onroad cars they do not have half the adjustments the oval cars have. Oval requires more parts and more machining than onroad.
Racers want the products to cost what they did over 5 years ago. The cost of materials and machine time has gone up more than 100%. Please don't say you understand because if everyone did understand questions like these would not get asked.
I could shave a few dollars off of our car if I sent the work overseas but I won't do that. You get what you pay for.

Dave

excellent reply dave that makes alot of sense never thought of alot of that stuff.

I have to agree with the "DUDE". The lastest oval cars kits are 100% complete and no aftermarket parts are needed. Everyone always wants the latest and greatest parts for their cars. Conversion kits are what generally have boosted prices. Hmmm, just as an example: Every time to hear about an L4 then next thing is get the Silva kit! Great stuff no doubt but now you have a whole car and then another complete set of graphite.

After all is said and done, the new generation kits are the best ever. Dave P. you actually are a great example of a "Good Guy" racer, always trying to help another get set-up. But, remember the Snowbird's last year, when you bought an aftermarket chassis? Did it help?

In all my years of racing, I still have not found one aftermarket part that made my car a lap faster. Racers always try the latest and greatest products because we love to experiment. Personnally, I have to say that what Dave Irrgang has said is true. It does cost a lot more today than in years past to produce a good product. You do get what you pay for.

If you start with a good piece, then you get to do the fine tuning (some are better than others) but you can be competitive right outta the box with todays oval cars. To all the Manufacturers who support our little hobby...I say thankyou!!!!

Tin Man

Dave I never said it was cheap just wondering why the on road guys can do it cheaper

Just to add to what Dave said. On-road kits sell 10 to 1 vs. an oval kit. So production times are longer (more parts being run) making the actual cost of the part cheaper. Hence the lower overall price.

Anyone in the manufacturing business knows that it may cost you more to cut or run 1000 vs. 100 but the actual cost of each part can sometimes be cut in half at 1000 vs. 100 pieces.

Example of actual parts I had machined:

8x .900ish stand-offs $40.00 or $5.00 each
20x .900ish stand-offs $80.00 or $4.00 each

...Can anyone say 'Small Markets' and 'Specialized' Equipment.

What is the normal LIFE of an oval car? Seems most of the time 1 year is a LONG run of a particular chassis... w/o changes.

The HD Pro3 and the KSG Gen 2 seem to have had about the longest I've seen for a long time - but now the Gen 3 is out - and it appears NOTHING on it is the same.

1/10th ON-ROAD ... "Pan Cars" I know I read a while back ago where the mfgs. who were trying to get the 200mm Pan Car class (what ever name they decided on) were all trying to work PRICE into their formula.

That's great fine and dandy...but let THEM spend the time/money/effort building a class, then someone else will come along...once the market is established...and dump a TRICKER...much MORE expensive car into the frey. BEEN THERE...got the T-Shirt!

It was done to the F-1/ Indy class years ago - many companies did it to the Touring class - it was done in OVAL Nitro Pan Cars too.

IMHO - nobody builds a cheap oval kit (even though they do) because there is NO market for them (even though there is)

When was the last time you saw a NEWBIE come into OVAL racing and ask "What's the CHEAPEST car kit I can get started with?"

There are two threads asking questions right now about oval cars - PRICE isn't mentioned...

Whats the best conversion kit for the l4.

What is the preffered chassis in asphalt oval racing

Too often I see NEWBIES wanting to get into oval racing - and guys who are FAITHFUL to their SPONSORS or maybe just their FAVORITE brand lead those newbies to a VERY Expensive HIGHLY Technical OVAL car...many of those guys NEVER never end up seeing a race track.

Dave Irrgang,

While on the subject of Price and Costs, in rough numbers, how much difference (if you know) is there in production cost to build basically the same car out of fiberglass vs. graphite materials.

I know back in those oh so precious old days - we had a lot of ROOKIES start out w/ the FIBERGLASS 10L's. But these days that's never an option.

(Just a curiosity I've had...)

I've had that same thought swtour. Also, what if their was a cheaper car made from fiberglass or even a plastic (gasp) tub. These cars could even have battery mounting positions similar to the new Losi mini late models so that they can be used both in oval and on road. Part of the good old days seemed like you could race your car on any type of track. For diehard oval racers like ourselves, these would'nt be that great. But to the masses who would like to start racing on road or oval, a dual purpose (simple) chassis may work. Just a random thought.
Mike Moore

$210 gets you this..... This is My newest Car kit called the DUAL, I specialize in sk cars but figure why not give a stab at the pan car side, a few simple boltons transforms the SK side into a pan car. Look over the pics, any ?'s ask on our thread, Oh forgot to mention our selling logo 2 cars for the price of 1.

Chassis Kit
http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/thumbs/new_pictures_046.jpg (http://photos.hobbytalk.com/showphoto.php/photo/30284)

Bumper Bracket system Allows the bracket to be flush with the chassis
http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/thumbs/new_pictures_049.jpg (http://photos.hobbytalk.com/showphoto.php/photo/30285)

Full Kit
http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/thumbs/new_pictures_067.jpg (http://photos.hobbytalk.com/showphoto.php/photo/30286)

Just bringing back the basics.... damper tube and fuel tubing/rod for center shock

swtour & k4mike,
That is something to look into. I don't think the price differance would be that much. The way to reduce the cost is to remove most of the extra adjustments and extra parts. The problem with that is people would complain it does not do enough.
The best RTR oval car I have seen is the one Hobby Connection makes.
The mold for an oval plastic chassis would exceed $20,000.00. As stated before the market is to small and to many companies are in the market to make it worth it to make a plastic chassis.

Dave

380.00 for a kit that is a RACECAR is cheap,i heard the Tennesse car is worth a lap!

So your Telling me Custom Works, can sell an entire car kit for 275$ with both sets of hubs on center and offset. Ready to run out of the box. And no other company can sell a complete car for under 300 with only 1 hub?

In any sport, hunting, fishing, golf...ect and yes hobbies included, your first purchase into any venture is gonna be a little costly...it's called the initial buy or investment.
Spend your money wisely by buying a proven product that will have parts and upgrades available in the future. When you decide to move up or even on out of the hobby, it will be easier to get a return on a product that is not obsolete or the mfg has folded.

Just a thought..

Be glad that you guys can get a car in the 300.00 range! The latest TC's are well over 450.00 now because of the exchange rates and value of the US Dollar!! No wonder TC's are dying right now!

There are cheaper TC car kits out there but to be able to run them on carpet be prepared to spend another 100+

EA

not only are TC's wayyyy over priced..but you need a new one every year!

how long has the CW car been out? 3 or 4 years......that is a steal!

the irs car has all the good stuff

there are good deals to be found.......

we would be better talking about 4.00 a gallon gas and why i have to pay for AIG's short comings and greed!

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have a real race car? I spend about $350 a WEEK for one tire, fuel, fuel for the hauler, and admissions/food and I have a LIMITED late model asphalt car. and that is if we don't break anything. I love RC racing and think the quality of the parts and kits is an unbelieveable deal for the technology/design and machining that goes into them. Big thumbs up to the manufacturers and supporters that keep new chassis design, and cars coming, and they are keeping the costs down- no one is getting rich off of r/c oval kits, they do not have to risk their livelyhood so we can go faster or feel better about the products we can buy, especially with an economy in the state it is in.

You want cheap racing get a legends car.

1/10th ON-ROAD ... "Pan Cars" I know I read a while back ago where the mfgs. who were trying to get the 200mm Pan Car class (what ever name they decided on) were all trying to work PRICE into their formula.

That's great fine and dandy...but let THEM spend the time/money/effort building a class, then someone else will come along...once the market is established...and dump a TRICKER...much MORE expensive car into the frey. BEEN THERE...got the T-Shirt!


Joe I never thought of that but wait till x ray comes out with one lol

heard the Tennesse car is worth a lap!


Aren't ALL R/C Cars from Tennessee?

Aren't ALL R/C Cars from Tennessee?

Almost but not all............

CW is in NC, Nitro Coyote is in AL, LE is in IN, RIP up in New England

You might think they are but not really.............

Hey Koz you forgot the half.....a lap and a half......:thumbsup:

Hey Koz you forgot the half.....a lap and a half......:thumbsup:

LOL.. Hey J.. sent you an e-mail the other day,never got a response
kosmon@sbcglobal.net

Well GH is waiting for his response to his reply he sent you back......My feelings are the same as his about the car.
All I know is, the race before I got the car I was running a Gen2 getting my arse handed to me by the G3,,,,(at least a lap and half off pace). I get the car and I'm running second the next race on the carpet...To me that says alot about the car....especially when we are running the basic setup we were running before only with the new car.
We run again back on the carpet November 15, if you would like to see it in action..:thumbsup: :woohoo:

Jason give me a call when you get a minunte. I lost all the numbers in my nextel.

Call were have been made......all you gots to do now is PICK UP !!!! LOL

Most onroad cars also come from large companies.. The oval cars come from smaller companies that have smaller runs, and pay more for materials and time.. When you figure that most kits now come with every upgrade we needed to buy before the price is not out of line.. Lets say we pay 250 for a basic car. We still have to add aprox 100 dollars in upgrades to get the good race ready cars.

umm burbs The new 1/10 pancars (world GT) corally and AE have cars but the others are Darkside, CRC, Speedmercant, and BMI. those 4 are pretty small companies so that blows that theroy out of the water.

as for your other theroy $380 for a kit and it still needs 100 bucks to be a "good race ready car"

Not the IRS Shock Wave! Our kit comes with all the extras you need. Our kit comes with a complete set of front springs, 3 sizes of ball studs, diff lube, king pin lube, all hubs, and the correct spacers for the straight up and offset pod. The Shock Wave is the 2008 Paved Oval modified Champion and has been winning races all around the country. What more do you want????

Dave Irrgang

You have got to hand it to Dave on this one. When i bought my first shockwave i opened the box at the hobbyshop to see what it had in it....i had a list of parts that i was going to buy to complete the car...what i thought it would need....I wanted to use the irs machined t-plate pivots they were there, long king pins included, long right side hub included, any way the list goes on and all i wound up with was a set of go fast body posts and a bod. To say this kit is complete is an understatement.


nick

What more do you want????

Dave Irrgang



Sponsorship? LOL

I run both a TC and Oval cars. I run a Losi Type T and IRS's Shock Wave. When I got back into this hobby, I spoke to people at the tracks to see what was being run in TC. You had a choice of XRay and Type R. The Type R was about 50.00 less then Xray. Since I've had the Type R (2 1/2 years) there hasn't be any upgrade to the car because it has proved itself. Now Xray has updated theirs every year. The Type R takes the championship where Xray doesn't.

As for oval, I'm moving to NC in about a year. Not my choice but my WIFES. I started looking for an oval car to run down there. I had run CRC's in the past and decided since I knew the name it had to be a good car, the Battle Axe. Biggest mistake I made with to NO support from CRC or parts. I sold the car at a big lose.

I looked all the manufacturers and asked questions. I looked at what would be the cost to get upgrades for the cars. Long story short I ended up buying IRS car because there were no upgrade to buy. The support that I get from Dave and Jason Jackson is the best I've seen out there. I have both of their cell numbers. Any driver will give you their setup sheet for the tracks that they have run.

I have been out of the hobby for more then 15+ years. I'm getting old and not a "A" main driver any more. Support is what I look at. I get that from IRS and as for the Type R, a kid by the name of Mike Haynes that's a Losi driver and is driver at my home track http://www.360rcspeedway.com/. This kid lives in the next town over and I can call him any time for help.

Support is what I look at.

Now I'll shut up,

Rick "Blue" Sieboldt

What more do you want????

Dave Irrgang


threaded adjustable body post. lol j/k sent you a pm dave

Not the IRS Shock Wave! Our kit comes with all the extras you need. Our kit comes with a complete set of front springs, 3 sizes of ball studs, diff lube, king pin lube, all hubs, and the correct spacers for the straight up and offset pod. The Shock Wave is the 2008 Paved Oval modified Champion and has been winning races all around the country. What more do you want????

Dave Irrgang


Not for all that $380.00 is a great price. Maybe I am just a little to critical sometimes. But i just sucks to spend alot of money on a complete car kit only to have to go out and buy better shocks xtra hubs etc....

Not all cars are this way. I know that the newest Custom Works kits come with a nice center shock and Irs side shocks 2 t plates , both hubs and all the shims to run the car in it's various postions.

Maybe more car companies will catch on to what IRS and Custom Works are doing.

As far as cost on G10 fiberglass vs. Carbon Fiber. The material cost alone is quite a bit. G10 is about a third the cost of the same thickness Carbon Fiber.

On our Nitro Pan car we switched to a G10 front bumper for this very reason. On this piece, the weight difference was only a few grams, I do not remember exactly but it was not near enough to worry about. Especially with the cost savings.

As far as cost on G10 fiberglass vs. Carbon Fiber. The material cost alone is quite a bit. G10 is about a third the cost of the same thickness Carbon Fiber.

On our Nitro Pan car we switched to a G10 front bumper for this very reason. On this piece, the weight difference was only a few grams, I do not remember exactly but it was not near enough to worry about. Especially with the cost savings.

Correct G10 is alot cheaper, not to mention easier and faster to machine, which makes the cost even less......I have some Chassis being machined out of G10 as we speak

As far as cost on G10 fiberglass vs. Carbon Fiber. The material cost alone is quite a bit. G10 is about a third the cost of the same thickness Carbon Fiber.

On our Nitro Pan car we switched to a G10 front bumper for this very reason. On this piece, the weight difference was only a few grams, I do not remember exactly but it was not near enough to worry about. Especially with the cost savings.

Out of ignorence and curiousity, is "G10" the layered, black graphite that Composite Craft used a lot?

G10 is fibergalss.

umm burbs The new 1/10 pancars (world GT) corally and AE have cars but the others are Darkside, CRC, Speedmercant, and BMI. those 4 are pretty small companies so that blows that theroy out of the water.

as for your other theroy $380 for a kit and it still needs 100 bucks to be a "good race ready car"


Umm i think you read my post wrong... What i meant is the larger companies can sell at a lower price because of larger runs.. The smaller companies charge more for there kits but they have higher costs and they offer every option you need. As for adding 100 in parts i was reffering to a car like the L4 that comes from a bigger company.

BTW Isnt BMI teamed with associated now for there new pan cars? I read on there site BMI helped design them..

Car Kits are kind of like TUNED MOTORS, MATCHED BATTERIES, CERAMIC BEARINGS, and all the other 'High End' equipment. The guys who have been at this for many years....WANT THE BEST...

But, remember back 20 years ago when you started? There were High End 'Upgrades', but you could still buy the basic car pretty cheap. It is nice to get a car that is a RACE CAR now w/o having to upgrade it, however..there is no 'BASIC' car for new racers to get into the hobby with.

That's just one more of the things that keeps some people from getting into Oval racing.

I think in many cases it's evident that LOWER Cost cars...bring NEW interest, otherwise WHY would the RTR Losi 1/18th scale (Slider and Late Model) or the TRAXXAS Slash, or 1/2 of the others be so popular...

When the ASSOCIATED 10L (the original wide car) came out, about 1/2 the guys I knew bought the FIBERGLASS version, that was because IT was within their budget...some of these guys ran those cars for a couple years and NEVER upgraded anything on them...others (the guys who were into the BLING) bought the graphite kits, and bought EVERY possible upgrade for them...and had everything either POLISHED or Anodized.

In general, that's just not an option these days.

Remember HOW many companies were basically created because there had HOP UPS for the old 10L?

Maybe it's Team Associated who dropped the ball...because, after all THEY were the ones who had the sportsman type kits...everybody else just pretty much made parts to make THEM BETTER...and BoLINK had SPORTSMAN Level cars for the Non-Associated market...

...just thinking in print...

SWtour,
What you said is very true. The so called problem of not having cheap oval cars became this way because the market/racers demanded it of the manufacturers. They kept saying, why are you making cars we have to upgrade? The manufacturers did what they asked and are now being critisized for it.
As far as cheap equipment, goto the internet and anyone can find high end equipment at VERY low prices. What I see is people just don't want to take the time to search for it.
When I am at the track and a new person talks about getting into oval racing I tell them to ask around the track or goto the internet to find equipment. Some of the hobby stores will have good used equipment for sale also.
Something I have noticed is the parents of the kids that want to get into it are really looking for something that will be a babysitter for them. R/C cars are not the answer. They will spend hundreds of dollars on Nintendo's or I-pod's so they don't have to get involved.
I got into R/C racing 25 yrs. ago with my son and it was a blast for the 2 of us. I don't regret the money or time I spent doing this with him. :thumbsup:

Dave Irrgang

I network with our racers when ever we have NEW guys trying to get in, the always have older 'used' cars they are willing to part with...matter of fact, for our local club race SUNDAY I have a couple guys looking for oval cars, and I have a few guys bringing cars for them to check out for a really good price.

But, some guys like the ability to buy something NEW (even though they can usually get a much better deal buying a complete USED setup)

I myself, personally STILL buy used because all my budget goes to PUTTING races on, not my racing equipment. I'll run about the same with a USED Gen 1, as I would with a NEW car.