Why are brushless motors and lipo batteries being held to tighter standards than brushed motors and nmhi batteries.
Brushed motors where given a set of build specs and the manufacturers where aloud to build the motor of the month as long as they stayed within the specs but not brushless.
Lipo batteries are only aloud a certain max charge voltage or they are disqualified. Nobody cares how high the voltage goes in the NMHI.
Racers have to use a bag to charge lipos but not NMHI, why?
Why are people trying to keep the manufacturers of these products so small?
Why do alot of racers only want to go as fast as 6 cell stock?

These are valid questions if you don't have a valid answer I don't want to hear it!!!

I know this should be in the lipo section but more oval racers talk about these type of problem than the others.

Dave Irrgang

Why are brushless motors and lipo batteries being held to tighter standards than brushed motors and nmhi batteries.
Brushed motors where given a set of build specs and the manufacturers where aloud to build the motor of the month as long as they stayed within the specs but not brushless.
Lipo batteries are only aloud a certain max charge voltage or they are disqualified. Nobody cares how high the voltage goes in the NMHI.
Racers have to use a bag to charge lipos but not NMHI, why?
Why are people trying to keep the manufacturers of these products so small?
Why do alot of racers only want to go as fast as 6 cell stock?

These are valid questions if you don't have a valid answer I don't want to hear it!!!

I know this should be in the lipo section but more oval racers talk about these type of problem than the others.

Dave Irrgang

I don't really think they are being held to a tighter standard, but if they are why shouldn't they be? Tight standard or loose standard makes no difference we'll all choose to run what is fastest and single source ourselves anyway.

If you're talking ROAR rules then it is no different than brushed, as far as "motor of the month".

When you charge a LiPO battery the voltage continually climbs until the cell swells and eventually starts on fire. The voltage standard is for safety. With a NiMH overcharging does not increase performance, so there is no need to regulate it.

LiPOs have a risk of fire hence the bag. While NiMH cells can explode, a 1000+ degree fire is a far more serious situation, which is the reason for the bag.

I don't understand the "keeping the manufactuers small" question. Do you mean fewer manufacturers or literally smaller companies? The reason to limit the number of manufacturers is to save all of us money.

As far as going slower is concerned 10.5 4 cell is too fast for many to run well, so they choose to look for a slower class. Others just prefer a slower class whether they are capable of racing faster or not. Still others sandbag. Nothing new here.

All of this has been discussed quite a bit before. Are you driving at a particular point?

Dave,

I'll jump in and answer being part of bringing these two technologies together in OVAL racing.


Q1 - Why are brushless motors and lipo batteries being held to tighter standards than brushed motors and nmhi batteries.


With the 'Old Technology' guys do/did a lot of things to push the envolope of the rules, and the rules were written with a little too much GRAY area to exploit. This may have been fine over the years for the "upper level" racers, but it was quite frustration for a lot of the lower level guys.

The opportunity to CLOSE some of those holes was seen with the NEW technology, by LIMITING what and how the products are used.

Q2 - Brushed motors where given a set of build specs and the manufacturers where aloud to build the motor of the month as long as they stayed within the specs but not brushless.


Being a NEW set of rules and specs, and only having ONE Mfg. involved in building the motors (up front) it saves a whole lot of effort, and creates a whole let less B.S. in creation of a class. MY personal hopes are that in the future, other MFG's will build "TO SPEC" their motors, and they WILL be allowed to be mixed. Personally, I still don't feel there is a good enough set of 'Spec's' and/or Blueprints to open that door w/o hurting the level of competition currently offered by using a SINGLE Mfg's product.

Q 3 - Lipo batteries are only aloud a certain max charge voltage or they are disqualified. Nobody cares how high the voltage goes in the NMHI.


I don't think the issue is "Nobody Cares" on the voltage deal, the difference is WE KNOW that LIPOS will burst if overcharged, and by bringing in a NEW technology we were able to WRITE a rule to disallow this kind of treatment before it got OUT OF HAND. It would have been great to be able to do this w/ NiMh too (maybe so many cells would NOT have exploded)

Q 4 - Racers have to use a bag to charge lipos but not NMHI, why?


Because using a product to charge a NiMh or a NiCad in was never heard of. In theory, if everyone charges their LIPO correctly, there should be very little NEED for a LIPO Sack (IMHO) - but again with it being a NEW technology - and w/ product liability issues, I understand WHY R.O.A.R. chose to mandate the use of LIPO Sacks (We haven't for our series as I see NO MORE danger w/ LIPO than I did w/ NiMh, maybe LESS as long as they are charged properly.)

Q 5 - Why are people trying to keep the manufacturers of these products so small?

Are you referring to the NUMBER of MFG's? If so, it's more a matter of economics to me. When I personally approached a few companies about the idea of a SLOWER B/L motor a little over 2 years ago, they all said "It's TOO SMALL of a MARKET, and NOT WORTH us being involved in" (This was nothing NEW, we were originally told the same thing w/ Rebuildable STOCK motors, and 19t motors...and 4 cell batteries...and more things involving OVAL racing)

NOVAK built what WE asked for, they figured it was going to be a VERY Small market selling item, and they only planned to offer it on their 'Shop-a-tron' section of their web site. With lots of pushing to OTHER markets, the 17.5 and now the 21.5 have become GOOD sellers, with talking R.O.A.R. into considering 17.5 as a "STOCK" class replacement for the OTHER forms of R/C, that gave the slower motor a NATIONAL Stamp of approval, and once that happened...OTHER MFG's quickly jumped into the market (Who would NOT have, if it was JUST for OVAL)

Q 6 - Why do alot of racers only want to go as fast as 6 cell stock?

With the technolgies advancements in STOCK motors, and the battery improvements of NiMh (vs. NiCad) a 6 cell STOCK car is FASTER than 6 cell MODIFIED was in the socalled "Hey Day" of Oval racing.

Pat used all my answers!!

pmsimkins,
The motivation for the questions comes from what I keep reading on the threads. It just seems that these products where the products to end all the motor & battery problems when they came out, but people are now complaining as much if not more than before.
No matter how hard companies try to improve things, things stay the same. The more oldtime racers I talk to the more they want to get out and I don't want to see this. Oval is having a tough time getting new racers. We can't afford to lose any. All this controversy will chase new people away.
The one thing you brought up does not make much sense to me. Why is it more dangerous to have a fire than an explosion?
If most of the races only aloud Novak motors, is that not keeping out other manufacturers? I'm not knocking them because that is all I own.

Dave

..another issue, I failed/forgot to mention. I approached a couple more companies AFTER Novak built their motors for us...and asked if they could/would build a motor to compete... The answer was "Why would we build something that isn't SUPERIOR to the competition.

My response is "We're not looking for a BATTLE of Superiority, we're looking for other products to fit into the MIX" If you aren't willing to do this, we'll exclude YOUR product!

Why is it more dangerous to have a fire than an explosion?
Dave

LiPOs are capable of burning very hot, which presents a risk of starting secondary fires. For example, your pit towel starts on fire, then your traction compound goes and then the motor spray goes etc. Then the building goes.

Also, I have had a NiMH cell pop and hit me square in the face. I would take that any day over getting the equivalent of a propane torch in the face.

I don't understand the controversy. LiPO is here, between Oval masters and the BRL so far there are some decent classes created. Run them or don't. No controversy and nothing to keep discussing. Though I agree the endless stream of repetitive threads on this subject creates the appearance of a lot more controversy than there is in reality.

swtour,
Those are real answers, thanks.
Then why are so many people complaining?
Won't making rules such as a minimum inductance create even more problems? What if I get a motor with an inductance barely under the rules? The manufacturer did nothing wrong and I paid good money for it but I can't use it. No one check brushed motor arms for this.

Dave

Yes, inductance based rules are terrible and hopefully people are finally seeing the light with that and those rules will go away.

Sorry if my answers weren't real :D

I am very direct

As for people complaining, I've resigned myself to the fact that people are always complaining about something. if it wasn't this it'd be something else. I don't think there are really as many negative people as it looks like, there are just a portion who are very loud.

Personally, I am not the biggest fan of LiPO, but I know it could be a good thing if handled right. I just accept that that is the direction things are going and I make the best of it and race my cars.

pmsimkins,
Would it not have been better to have the NMHI in a bag also?
I like technology alot and hope it keeps going.

I appreciate the real answers I got. I hope more people start racing and do less complaining.

Dave

I don't understand the controversy. LiPO is here, between Oval masters and the BRL so far there are some decent classes created. Run them or don't. No controversy and nothing to keep discussing. Though I agree the endless stream of repetitive threads on this subject creates the appearance of a lot more controversy than there is in reality.

Amen!!! :thumbsup:

swtour,
Thanks for your answers.

Dave

Those are real answers, thanks.

Q - Then why are so many people complaining?

They are OVAL Guys - that seems to be what makes their world go ROUND and ROUND. Truthful answer..I think there is a hidden push from some of the companies who are left on the outside (I'm not a conspiracy guy...but TRINITY has had a LARGE market for a long time...and they are NOT in this deal...YET!) ooopppps I said the "T" word.

Q - Won't making rules such as a minimum inductance create even more problems?

IMHO - Yes, which is why I never supported this rule. My belief is we need SPECS, very tight SPECS. Size, Shape, Material, Wire Size/Length everything needs to be SPEC'd, once that happens...ANYONE should be able to build a motor off the BLUEPRINT - and it would be allowed to be used.

Q - What if I get a motor with an inductance barely under the rules?

If this were done by MY way of creating rules - it would have a (Hidden from the public) NO GO level of variance. Below that variance number...it would be NO GO - NUMBERS would NOT be done in public view (All tech should be done in a SECLUDED Tech area away from public viewing)

The manufacturer did nothing wrong and I paid good money for it but I can't use it. No one check brushed motor arms for this.

VERY True statement, but it was guys who were building ILLEGAL STOCK MOTORS that caused several years of MANDATORY Motor Tear Down in STOCK out here... (Which happened to cost my then team mate nearly 20 MOTORS in a single season.

This was when I drew up the first (that I know of) proposals for a REBUILDABLE Stock motor, and about 4 years before a LONG HARD effort saw that to fruition.

(Ever seen a BigJim Handwound STOCK motor?) we saw a few, along w/ a few other mfgs.

pmsimkins,
Would it not have been better to have the NMHI in a bag also?
Dave

Maybe, but it could compound the problem by trapping more heat. Getting the cells (NiMH) hotter makes them more likely to blow. I think having the cells out so you can easily check their temperatures is better as well.

The trapping heat problem doesn't apply to LiPOs as they don't really heat up while they charge.

pmsimkins,
Would it not have been better to have the NMHI in a bag also?
I like technology alot and hope it keeps going.

I appreciate the real answers I got. I hope more people start racing and do less complaining.

Dave

If that NMHI cell decides to blow, that little bag ain't gonna stop the bullet that comes out of there!!! But...it will stop the Flames!

One Word "Cost". Oh yea, that was the only word left, Pat and Joe used all the rest! lolWhy are brushless motors and lipo batteries being held to tighter standards than brushed motors and nmhi batteries.
Brushed motors where given a set of build specs and the manufacturers where aloud to build the motor of the month as long as they stayed within the specs but not brushless.
Lipo batteries are only aloud a certain max charge voltage or they are disqualified. Nobody cares how high the voltage goes in the NMHI.
Racers have to use a bag to charge lipos but not NMHI, why?
Why are people trying to keep the manufacturers of these products so small?
Why do alot of racers only want to go as fast as 6 cell stock?

These are valid questions if you don't have a valid answer I don't want to hear it!!!

I know this should be in the lipo section but more oval racers talk about these type of problem than the others.

Dave Irrgang

U didnt get you to thinking did i dave? good answers and thanks for the insight.

Let me ask this...has anyone run a (for arguement sake) lrp 17.5 verses a novak 17.5...or a speedpassion or a tekin....how do the other manufacturers stack up?