Heres something that would have been interesting that was never shown.Remember in the ultimate computer when Wesley breaks off the attack on the Enterprise.Its too bad they didn't show Kirk explaining to Wesley how M-5 went beserk.Filling Wesley in on how the M-5 took over total control of the Enterprise.Guy S

Why?
Sounds like a real boring scene. WE know all that happened already so we don't need a recap, and it's obvious Kirk explained afterwards between the last act and the epilog.

I really don't see the need for over-explanation in a drama. Look at the difference between the movies 2001 and 2010. The less you explain, the more the imaginations of the audience comes into play to fill in the gaps, as with 2001.

2010, on the other hand, attempted to over-explain every event from the first film and therefore leave absolutely nothing for the audience to ponder. At the end, there was nothing to wonder, to question, or to imagine. A somewhat unsatisfying outcome.

You know what I hated? Whenever there was a problem in Engineering that Scotty had to fix, he'd say vague things like, "It's the third circuitry junction. I'll get it!" Or the infamous, "I've got to have thirty minutes." Then he'd magically fix the problems and we're left wondering how. Why not build up the drama by having Scotty explain to Kirk and the audience all of the nuances of the necessary fix: Tell us in detail all of the equipment that you need to manipulate, bypass, reprogram or just plain fix to get the job done. TOS suffered from a complete and insufferable lack of technobabble dialog. Forget fixing the spfx. If you want Trek enhanced, that is the route you need to go.

"Scotty, we need warp speed in three minutes or we're all dead.."

"Cap'n, the engines canna take much more of this strain! If this continues, were gonna have a bear of a time cleaning the antimatter injectors with the catylitic ionizers that Commodore Mays had sent to us at our last Starbase stop. Of course I had to get the disbursing officer to authorize the shipping and processing fees, but we'll discuss that later. Once we get those clean...well then we're going to have to ventilate the whole compartment in accordance with Starfleet OSHA regulations..

And don't even get me started on those Flux Capacitors! Flux! Now just where do you expect me to come up with and additional 1.21 Gigawatts of extra power when I'm barely holding the old gal together as it is? Do you just expect me to stick a pole in the impulse crystal unit and HOPE the we can generate a large enough charge as we pass through this ionized cloud of gas?"

"Ooch! and look at this now!, I've got Mr. Spock waltzing into me engine room popping the lid off the bloody dilithium initiator and he's scattering radioactive dust all over the chamber! Now who do you suppose is going to have to clean that mess up??"

"Scotty, we need warp speed in three minutes or we're all dead.."

"Cap'n, the engines canna take much more of this strain! If this continues, were gonna have a bear of a time cleaning the antimatter injectors with the catylitic ionizers that Commodore Mays had sent to us at our last Starbase stop. Of course I had to get the disbursing officer to authorize the shipping and processing fees, but we'll discuss that later. Once we get those clean...well then we're going to have to ventilate the whole compartment in accordance with Starfleet OSHA regulations..

And don't even get me started on those Flux Capacitors! Flux! Now just where do you expect me to come up with and additional 1.21 Gigawatts of extra power when I'm barely holding the old gal together as it is? Do you just expect me to stick a pole in the impulse crystal unit and HOPE the we can generate a large enough charge as we pass through this ionized cloud of gas?"

"Ooch! and look at this now!, I've got Mr. Spock waltzing into me engine room popping the lid off the bloody dilithium initiator and he's scattering radioactive dust all over the chamber! Now who do you suppose is going to have to clean that mess up??"

Starfleet HAZMAT?

My gripe with this episode has always been how Kirk and Co. who just lost several hundred fellow Starfleet members and at the end of the episode, acted as all was normal. Also, you would think Leslie would have realized that the M-5 was the reason for the attack and not Kirk. All in all several mistakes in the script that would have added to a more realistic episode had they not occurred. A sense of sadness in the end would have made it better.

^ While I agree with you, that was a problem in almost every show. Even in episodes where Kirk shows anger or dismay over the loss of Ensign Redshirt (or when he occasionally agonized over all 435 lives in his command), it only lasts a few seconds , long enough for Shatner to say his lines before Krik spots the BOWISC*. After that, *poof* all better now.

* Babe of the week in skimpy clothing

That was a hallmark of the series. In the "Immunity Sydrome" billions die in a whole solar system as well as an entire starship full of Vulcans, and the episode ends with a joke and smile.

Real loose ends:

What did they do about the Guardian of Forever?
What kind of relations developed with the First Federation?
Did Yonada arrive safely, and did McCoy visit Natira?
Did Kirk ever follow up on a relationship?

And what ever happened to Vena and the Talosians? Did Pike knock her up and did the Talosians get their slave race after all? I'm sure they would have had the technology to "breed" the two damaged humans ...

And what ever happened to Vena and the Talosians? Did Pike knock her up and did the Talosians get their slave race after all? I'm sure they would have had the technology to "breed" the two damaged humans ...The Talosian Keeper had told Captain Pike that humans' "unique hatred of captivity" made them "too violent and dangerous a species for our needs," and that this "unsuitability" had "condemned the Talosian race to eventual death." IMO, they probably abandoned all hope of creating a slave race and resigned themselves to extinction. After all, the Talosians weren't really evil; they were just trying to preserve their race the only way left to them -- by using their advanced mental powers.

Then, of course, remember that the Talosians couldn't even repair the machines left by their ancestors . . . and Capt. Pike was essentially non-functional from the neck down!

One loose end I would have liked to see Star Trek spend a bit more time on was the planet with the Guardian of Forever. Who were the inhabitants, what of the portal?, What knowledge did the Portal have?

One loose end I would have liked to see Star Trek spend a bit more time on was the planet with the Guardian of Forever. Who were the inhabitants, what of the portal?, What knowledge did the Portal have?

There is a great book out there by Harlan Ellison, which includes the original screenplay and his thoughts on how Roddenberry "butchered" it and took credit! I'm not a crazed fan, and I don't go running around buying Trek books, but you can read the first few pages of this over at Amazon.com (I did) and you'll get hooked. The first almost third of the book is a HUGE rant by Ellison just going WILD. One of the most hilarous things I have ever read. Check it out:

http://www.amazon.com/City-Edge-Forever-Original-Teleplay/dp/1565049640/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216593397&sr=1-3

And click on the book and use the feature "Look Inside" and see if you don't get hooked too! It is worth the price of the book just to read the rant, and the original screenplay has many different aspects to it compared to what was actually filmed. I enjoyed reading the book, anyway!

--H

There is a great book out there by Harlan Ellison, which includes the original screenplay and his thoughts on how Roddenberry "butchered" it and took credit! I'm not a crazed fan, and I don't go running around buying Trek books, but you can read the first few pages of this over at Amazon.com (I did) and you'll get hooked. The first almost third of the book is a HUGE rant by Ellison just going WILD. One of the most hilarous things I have ever read. Check it out:

http://www.amazon.com/City-Edge-Forever-Original-Teleplay/dp/1565049640/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216593397&sr=1-3

And click on the book and use the feature "Look Inside" and see if you don't get hooked too! It is worth the price of the book just to read the rant, and the original screenplay has many different aspects to it compared to what was actually filmed. I enjoyed reading the book, anyway!

--H

Harlan Ellison is a horses arse and has a delusion of grandeur.

Harlan Ellison is a horses arse and has a delusion of grandeur.

Yes -- and you can say that about a lot of folks. I still consider the book worth reading simply for the insanity of the beginning.

--H

Harlan Ellison is a horses arse and has a delusion of grandeur."City on the Edge of Forever" as Ellison wrote it was a great story, but it wasn't Star Trek. Some changes had to be made to fit it into the Trek universe that G.R. had created. And today, forty years later, the man is still whining about how they turned his script into a "thalidomide baby." Delusions of grandeur? No, just an ego the size of an aircraft carrier.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

"City on the Edge of Forever" as Ellison wrote it was a great story, but it wasn't Star Trek. Some changes had to be made to fit it into the Trek universe that G.R. had created. And today, forty years later, the man is still whining about how they turned his script into a "thalidomide baby." Delusions of grandeur? No, just an ego the size of an aircraft carrier.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

What it tells me is that he's known only for a tv script he wrote and has been riding for 40 years. Check out http://youtube.com/watch?v=3yaY98GTCYM&feature=related and see his whining.

You think that he is known for only one TV script?

You think that he is known for only one TV script?

Best known in most circles. At least it's his most talked about.

Well, in all fairness, Ellison has written 9 novels and novellas, about two dozen short story collections, 8 nonfiction books, and several published screenplays and teleplays -- including the classic Outer Limits episode "Demon With a Glass Hand." Which was not exactly chopped liver.

I recently read an article entitled "Frank Sinatra Has a Cold" which was written by Gay Talese for Esquire Magazine in 1966. In it, he describes a backroom confrontation in a nightclub after Sinatra made fun of some boots Ellison was wearing. The club was one of Sinatra's regular hangouts, and he had his entire "entourage" with him. Ellison, who looks like he weighs about 110 lbs, gave Frank as good as he got. They didn't come to blows, but Ellison didn't back down either.

Yeah, I'd say he has a pretty healthy ego. :p

... including the classic Outer Limits episode "Demon With a Glass Hand." Which was not exactly chopped liver.

Forgot about that one! Yep -- gotta give him his due! He also wrote another one that he ended up suing James Cameron over -- said he (Cameron) stole the TERMINATOR idea from that episode that he wrote. I recently watched it, and it _was_ very good -- but I did not see a huge comparision between the OL episode and Terminator. I can't remember what it was called, though. I think it had the word "Soldier" in the title, but I'm not sure...

And -- he's got a huge ego allright. I met him once when I was about 15 and got his autograph. He was quite pleasant gabbing to us until some woman (this was at a SCI-FI con) who was VERY scantilly dressed walked by -- he suddenly had NO time OR PATIENCE for kids at that point. My brother and I thought he was an ass. But, as I grow older... I think I might have done the same in similar circumstances! The lady was a knockout! :freak:

--Henry

I knew Ellison as one of the best speculative fiction writers of his era before I even knew he wrote one of my favorite Trek episodes.

. . . He also wrote another one that he ended up suing James Cameron over -- said he (Cameron) stole the TERMINATOR idea from that episode that he wrote. I recently watched it, and it _was_ very good -- but I did not see a huge comparision between the OL episode and Terminator. I can't remember what it was called, though. I think it had the word "Soldier" in the title, but I'm not sure..."Soldier" WAS the title, and you're right -- aside from the idea of warriors from the future being time-warped into our present, it had little in common with Terminator or its sequels.
And -- he's got a huge ego allright. I met him once when I was about 15 and got his autograph. He was quite pleasant gabbing to us until some woman (this was at a SCI-FI con) who was VERY scantilly dressed walked by -- he suddenly had NO time OR PATIENCE for kids at that point. My brother and I thought he was an ass.I wouldn't necessarily call that a sign of a huge ego. A huge something else, maybe. . . ;) ;)

ive attended a few sci-fi cons where he was one of the guests. to say he has a huge ego is an understatement.
he can be an amusing, engaging, and intellectually challenging guy, as well as being a great writer. he can also be a boor and a horses a$$. its just a shame that the latter often gets in the way of the former and often prevents people from listening to what he has to say (understandably).

His personality in person takes nothing away from the brilliance of his work.

His personality in person takes nothing away from the brilliance of his work.... which is true of many artists.

What it tells me is that he's known only for a tv script he wrote and has been riding for 40 years. Check out http://youtube.com/watch?v=3yaY98GTCYM&feature=related and see his whining.

No, that's what he's best known for among the ignorant fanboys. I personally think A Boy and His Dog and I Have No Mouth and I must Scream were two of the better science fiction stories written in the seventies. Most people consider his Demon with a Glass Hand script one of the best Outer Limits episodes, not exactly faint praise.

"Soldier" WAS the title, and you're right -- aside from the idea of warriors from the future being time-warped into our present, it had little in common with Terminator or its sequels.
I wouldn't necessarily call that a sign of a huge ego. A huge something else, maybe. . . ;) ;)

Cameron settled with Ellison because as well as the warrior from the future angle, his story "Soldier"(which the script was based on) also had battlefield laser-spewing killer robots with treads, which were called Hunter-Killers, or HK's for short. Just as Reese referred to them in The Terminator. And like Reese, the soldier gives speeches about the horrors of the future war.

I don't think Cameron ripped off Ellison, BTW, but was probably influenced by his story(not the Outer Limits episode) even if it was unconscious. The "With Acknowledgement to the Works of Harlan Ellison" line Cameron added to the credits was probably the right thing to do, imho.

His personality in person takes nothing away from the brilliance of his work.It does for me. There are many jerks who are famous, but Ellison has long seemed to be on a campaign to be a famous jerk. The fact that he is a jerk will likely be the thing most remembered about him (after the Star Trek script). It makes me less interested in what he has to say. I am most particularly uninterested in any ideas he might have about personal relationships or the functioning of society, as it seems to me he has zero credibility on the subject. A world full of Harlan Ellisons, no matter how brilliant, is not a world I'd want to visit. Brilliance is no excuse for poor behavior. In fact, I'd argue those among us blessed with brilliance have, if anything, an even stronger responsibility to be gracious, polite -- and forgiving -- than the average guy.

Qapla'

SSB

Cameron settled with Ellison because as well as the warrior from the future angle, his story "Soldier"(which the script was based on) also had battlefield laser-spewing killer robots with treads, which were called Hunter-Killers, or HK's for short. Just as Reese referred to them in The Terminator. And like Reese, the soldier gives speeches about the horrors of the future war.


I haven't seen "Soldier" in many years, but I don't remember anything about Hunter-Killers, or even any mention of them. As I remember you only saw two combatants with RCOM ray guns that were hit by some sort of beam which threw them into the past. From what I read, it was the Police station interrogation scene that caused the settlement.


I don't think Cameron ripped off Ellison, BTW, but was probably influenced by his story(not the Outer Limits episode) even if it was unconscious. The "With Acknowledgement to the Works of Harlan Ellison" line Cameron added to the credits was probably the right thing to do, imho.

A couple of years back I read an interview where the person stated that he believes that the inspiration for "Terminator" was actually the PKD story "Second Variety" and it's sequel. I have never found the sequel, or it's name, but the storyline is suppose to be, that a soldier is sent back to kill the inventor of the robots in SV. The robots send one of their own back to stop the assassination.

If anyone knows if this is actually true, then could you post the name of the story?

David.

I haven't seen "Soldier" in many years, but I don't remember anything about Hunter-Killers, or even any mention of them. As I remember you only saw two combatants with RCOM ray guns that were hit by some sort of beam which threw them into the past. From what I read, it was the Police station interrogation scene that caused the settlement.


David.

I guess I wasn't clear, there were two versions of "Soldier", The Outer Limits episode, and the original Ellison short story he himself adapted into the script. The battle scenes in the story were pretty epic and somewhat similiar to the flashback scenes in The Terminator. The battle scenes in the Outer Limit script reflected what Ellison thought they could afford to show on TV. The original story was quite bigger in scope than the script, it was also adapted into a much more faithful graphic novel, either in The Illustrated Ellison or The RBBC Special Ellison Illustrated issue, I forget which. But both came out looong before The Terminator.

Checked, it was RBCC, the illustrated adaption came out in 1980. The original short story was first published in 1957.

PhilipMarlowe, I didn't know that there was a short story first, I'm not a real big fan of HE. I'll have to go look for it, and the comic book. Thanks.

David.

First off, fellas, thanks for an interesting discussion that didn't devolve in to anything I had to clean up. I appreciate that. And it has been quite interesting, indeed. I'd never heard that the original "Soldier" story had been a short story and always assumed it was a script. Very kewel.

Also kewel about the "Second Variety" story from PKD. I need to seek out a collection of his short stories to add to my library....


Real loose ends:

What did they do about the Guardian of Forever?
I love this sort of stuff!

There's at least one Star Trek novel from the late-80's/early-90's that covers this. I forget the title for sure, but it involves the Federation having the Guardian classified as it's most top-secret project ever. The Romulans somehow find out about it and attempt to re-order time.

There's also a "New Voyages" episode centered around the Guardian.
What kind of relations developed with the First Federation?
One of the Shatner-verse novels touches on this briefly. The UFP and FF developed a diplomatic relationship in which some technology from the FF was allowed to the UFP, but that it was limited because the FF had a similar sort of Prime Directive in place.
Did Yonada arrive safely, and did McCoy visit Natira?
I have no answer on this one.
Did Kirk ever follow up on a relationship?
Well, there was that one that he sort of accidentally followed up on. You know the one where he met up with one of his sons on that deep space station orbiting that big rock planet that Khan had attacked...? :wave:

First off, fellas, thanks for an interesting discussion that didn't devolve in to anything I had to clean up. I appreciate that. And it has been quite interesting, indeed. I'd never heard that the original "Soldier" story had been a short story and always assumed it was a script. Very kewel.


The short story is quite different from the OL episode, the biggest difference is that in the story only one man comes back from the future, though like in the episode the time rift is caused by two energy beams colliding. There's also no family (or cat). In the story Qarlo is zapped into the fifties, scared with no idea what's going on, he blast a train and a few folks before being wounded and captured by the police. Eventually Government experts figure out what's going on. The story ironically ends with Qarlo becoming a VERY effective spokesman for the anti-war movement who presumably lives happily ever after, unlike the OL episode.

Interestingly, several sources state the reason Cameron settled with Ellison by giving him a credit was 1)Because Cameron had given an interview where he stated The Terminator was inspired by Ellison's Outer Limit scripts Soldier & Demon with a Glass Hand (that interview was apparently what sent Ellison running for his lawyer.) and 2)Because Cameron probably didn't mind the cachet of having Ellison's name attached to the film. At that time Cameron's only other major filmed screenplay was Rambo-First Blood Part II and he figured Ellison's name would give him more serious cred with the sci-fi crowd.

Well, there was that one [relationship] that [Kirk] sort of accidentally followed up on. You know the one where he met up with one of his sons on that deep space station orbiting that big rock planet that Khan had attacked...? :wave:ONE of his sons?

Just how many whelps did the old space stud sire? David Marcus is the only one I'm aware of within the Trek canon.

I love this sort of stuff!

There's at least one Star Trek novel from the late-80's/early-90's that covers this. I forget the title for sure, but it involves the Federation having the Guardian classified as it's most top-secret project ever. The Romulans somehow find out about it and attempt to re-order time.

There's also "Imzadi," where Troi has died and Riker defies orders and uses the guardian to go back and save her.

Crucible: McCoy, in which the Klingons believe the Guardian is actually a Federation weapons project and end up destroying it.

Actually (minor spoiler ahead) the gist of the book is about another 'life' McCoy lived in old Earth after going through the Guardian, saving Edith Keeler, and not having Kirk and Spock repair the timeline. Damn good read.

Interesting info, Scott! Thanks for passing that on. I had never heard the Ellison connection to "Terminator".


ONE of his sons?

Just how many whelps did the old space stud sire? David Marcus is the only one I'm aware of within the Trek canon.
I was joking. Given his preclivity for the ladies, it's possible that he sired several children. We know of David Marcus and his unborn son from... That one w/the Native Americans on that planet and the locals stone his pregnant wife.


There's also "Imzadi," where Troi has died and Riker defies orders and uses the guardian to go back and save her.
Y'know, I've got that one but never read it. Interesting, that.

Crucible: McCoy, in which the Klingons believe the Guardian is actually a Federation weapons project and end up destroying it.

Actually (minor spoiler ahead) the gist of the book is about another 'life' McCoy lived in old Earth after going through the Guardian, saving Edith Keeler, and not having Kirk and Spock repair the timeline. Damn good read.
Kewel. Another one I'd never read. One I Liked that dealt w/timetravel, but nothing canon was Ishmael.

As to Terminator, Micheal Rennie was in a cheapo movie about a soldier that came from the future to stop a future war. His hand gets damaged and we see he's a cyborg. Gasp! He alters the timeline, and then vanishes and they have no memory of him being there, because he now wasn't.

As to Kirk, he must have space condoms. And they were alien chics anyway.

Maybe their version of a condom is a portable transporter that beams out the Little Jims before they hook up with the BOWISC*.

* Babe of the week in skimpy clothing

We know of David Marcus and his unborn son from... That one w/the Native Americans on that planet and the locals stone his pregnant wife.


MIRAMANEEEEEEE!!!!!

As to Terminator, Micheal Rennie was in a cheapo movie about a soldier that came from the future to stop a future war. His hand gets damaged and we see he's a cyborg. Gasp! He alters the timeline, and then vanishes and they have no memory of him being there, because he now wasn't.


It was "Cyborg 2087": http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060272/ Not officially available right now.

Funny thing. His stun gun was a Topper, Multi-Pistol 09 toy, and the future soldiers lasers were Remco, Hamilton's Invaders Grenade pistols. I had both back then.

David.

Did Yonada arrive safely, and did McCoy visit Natira?


Please help me out on this:
Wasn't there a reference made in Gene Roddenberry's novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, that when Kirk had McCoy "drafted" back into Starfleet, McCoy had been studying the Fabrini(sp?) medical database that came with Yonada after Natira and her people made landfall? Who still has that book?

Please help me out on this:
Wasn't there a reference made in Gene Roddenberry's novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, that when Kirk had McCoy "drafted" back into Starfleet, McCoy had been studying the Fabrini(sp?) medical database that came with Yonada after Natira and her people made landfall? Who still has that book?I've still got it, and yes, you are correct.

Qapla'

SSB

I can think of several loose ends:

1) What of Lazarus? does this count?

2) Does Kracko and et. al on the Ganster Planet ever get a piece of the action?

3) Is the Talosian planet still off limits? Did the Talosians survive without a human colony to rebuild?

How about these for starters?

On Harlan Ellison suing James Cameron:

I take it Harlan Ellison settled with the H.G. Wells estate for the use of a time travel device, and the estate of Karel Čapek for the use of Robots who look like humans. :)

I've still got it, and yes, you are correct.

Qapla'

SSB


Now that's interesting, I never knew that.

I can think of several loose ends:

2) Does Kracko and et. al on the Ganster Planet ever get a piece of the action?



Oooh, good one! :thumbsup:

What happened to the Omega USA? Did they implement the Ee Plabnista correctly?

How long did it really take Cyrano Jones to pick up all those tribbles?