This poll is just for finding out your opinion on if there should be mAh on LiPo batteries for different classes. Polls for other things like what actual limit should there be will be voted on in another poll I will make later.

Feel free to comment.

I voted different limits for different classes for the fact that it will help everyone racers and manufacturers alike..... Its a place for everyone theory.......

I voted different limits for different classes for the fact that it will help everyone racers and manufacturers alike..... Its a place for everyone theory.......


The only downside to that is to the guys who run multiple classes at events, or run different classes based on track size.

With that they would have a box of different batteries...vs just having ONE SIZE fit ALL. (Except for OPEN MOD) Those guys should ALWAYS be the "Showcase for Talent" and run the biggest, bestest available.

So instead of having a tool box full of the same type (3-4) they would have 2 of one and 2 of another......... I dont know I always know there are ups and downs to anything we do this is racing for gods sake, so thats the reason I made the move to Nitro this season instead of working on Electric until something gets figured out.....

With that they would have a box of different batteries...vs just having ONE SIZE fit ALL. (Except for OPEN MOD)

Good point... :thumbsup:

Also if I remember correctly this is racing, there is no one size fits all unless we do what the real cars do, and spec (which is a word the r/c racing community hates) everything out............ Go for something and stick with it..........

Those of you with the sanctions/big races/leagues just pick something already this is driving me crazy, LOL............

This may turn out bad. I voted for "same limit except for 21.5 class".

With that being said I bet a lot of people that are voting for same limit for all classes thinking that we would go with 3200. Just my 2 cents, but like Hank said you have to crawl before you can walk

Joel White

...anyone who wants to really go CHEAP for a "Sportsman" 21.5 class - the New ORION 2400 mAh pack could be killer...and CHEAP.

But, I'm personally opposed to that for the same reason (Too many different things to have)

I voted for same mahs for everyone except open mod (they can run whatever they want).

I emailed a reputable matcher (hint, my avatar) about all this lipo deal and he said we are in for a rapidly changing technology with those batteries. So to me it doesn't make sense to limit any class with a low mah limit, especially if you can have say an SMC 5000mah for about the same price as the Orion 3400. If you force the entry level racers to go with the 3400mah, those racers will have a fit when the news hits that they have to change again after only a year, whereas maybe you can get 2 or more years by going the 5000 max route. I know it sucks for the guys who already invested in the 3200mah packs but change is inevitable, expecially with this technology being so new still. This is only the beginning!

If I were a track promotor in my neck of the woods (Northeast) I would have a lipo class for experimentation purposes only, since A LOT of people are still on the nimh, and since we can expect lipos to change rapidly. Leave the mah's open but have a weight penalty for winners. So racers can buy whatever they want for lipos but going faster will only make them heavier, unless manufacturers can PUT DOWN IN WRITING that a pack will be available and will not change for at least the next year.

Outlaw 44,

The difference is 'Rapid Technology' with the LIPO is currently (and I'm predicting the future as well) the LOWER mAh LIPOS are available because there is a market for them.

Unlike a NEW NiMh cell that OBSOLETES the old cell simply because MATCHERS quit matching them (I've been told this isn't the case...yet I've seen batteries in the past that MATCHERS said we're going to be NO LONGER produced...yet they still ARE several years later.)

Got 5300 NiMh's YET?

If I had 7000 NIMH or lipos I would run them. For me I will always run the bigest and badest there is.

I've tried to do a lot of reading on this subject and from what I have learned over the last few weeks I think we would be fine sticking with a 3200 limit.

..my thoughts for 2009 would probably be 3400 - 3500 mah.

3200 for the remainder of 2008 (ANOTHER 5 months)

The ORION 3200's are still available at many sources.

The only downside to that is to the guys who run multiple classes at events, or run different classes based on track size.

With that they would have a box of different batteries...vs just having ONE SIZE fit ALL. (Except for OPEN MOD) Those guys should ALWAYS be the "Showcase for Talent" and run the biggest, bestest available.

You won't have a box of different batteries unless you want a box of batteries.

If Sportsman ended up being 3600 and lower, and PRO stock 4800 and lower, a wise budget racer would just buy two 3600 packs and not fret about the 0.01's of a second that he could be losing in PRO stock.

I am sure, many racers will have a box full of batteries even if there is LiPO and No limits in the classes they run.

Someone should do a Lipo tutorial...."how to" charge, discharge, maintain, cycle, store, how to balance, precautions to take etc. That might help some of us understand Lipo's better.

....I won't have to worry about having a box of different batteries anyway. Rarely can I get 100% out of My Car/Setup with what I'm using...bigger won't make ME faster.

....I won't have to worry about having a box of different batteries anyway. Rarely can I get 100% out of My Car/Setup with what I'm using...bigger won't make ME faster.

AMEN brother first great answer I have heard all day even beats mine, LOL............

open battery to any approved manufacture,except mah limits
21.5 lipo-3600-lower
17.5 lipo-5400-lower
voltage check 8.44-lower
on the check fly with anyone that"geez that guy\car looks fast"

These kind of things with batteries changing from this to that from nimh to Lipo to whatever comes down the road in 12 months is just another reason to go Nitro racing, but I guess thats just progress. So I think I'll just progress right into Nitro racing.

call me crazy but it has always been done this way no matter what batteries were made out of ie: nicad and nimh. didn't natter if they were sce scr scrc all classes shared the cap.

I hear ya, got two nitro pan cars myself but that's a tough switch for the carpet guys, lol. If you think Paragon fumes were bad:freak:wait till you get a load of those Nitro Fumes!!These kind of things with batteries changing from this to that from nimh to Lipo to whatever comes down the road in 12 months is just another reason to go Nitro racing, but I guess thats just progress. So I think I'll just progress right into Nitro racing.

God I love dirt!

it has always been done this way no matter what batteries were made out of ie: nicad and nimh. didn't natter if they were sce scr scrc all classes shared the cap.


We were spoiled for a few years back in the NORRCA days in So.Cal. because we had a battery SPLIT between the Sportsman and Expert classes.

At that time the SPORTSMAN classes stayed with the old red 1400 cells, while the EXPERT classes switched to the 1700s.

This changed because several 'TEAMS' lobbied for the change...cause they were 'grooming' sportsman drivers...and it was HARD on them to have to figure out how to run BOTH batteries.

When the change happened...the SPORTSMAN class DIED, because the TEAMS were putting guys in the so called "SPORTSMAN" classes w/ drivers would were competitive in the EXPERT classes....so a LOT of racers quit racing that year.

NOTE: I hear a lot of bi hing about 'Guys wanting a class so they can WIN'

A lower level version of a HIGH level class isn't about guys wanting to be able to WIN...it's about guys who want the opportunity to run a FASTER CLASS yet still have FUN. Which you CAN'T do when you are not a great driver....and are mixed with the "Pros"

It's about FUN! Not WINNING - for many, many racers.... Get it Straight!

Uhhh, don't wanna crash your Lipo parade, but If I were to switch, i'd rather give this a try. I know it's been talked about before.

A123 battery
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=AQR400063
Charger
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=AQR400088
There's a thing about it I like when I read about it, it's NO FIRE!

..................
6.6V 4600 Li-Ion Nano Phosphate Hypersonic Pack
Key Features
Inherently safe chemistry will not explode or catch fire
:woohoo:Twice the cycle life of competitive Li-poly batteries:woohoo:
50% more power (up to 60C burst) than competitive Li-poly batteries
Fast charge capable - reach 100% state-of-charge in 15 minutes using the Hypersonic ChargeSafe™ balancing fast charge system.
Balancing connector (compatible only with Sonic Charge (AQR400088))
Overview
Hypersonic™ is a high power density battery pack safely providing up to 30C continuous output and 60C burst rates. :thumbsup::thumbsup:Unlike traditional lithium-ion, Hypersonic™ packs have exceptional safety characteristics with no risk of spontaneous combustion.:thumbsup::thumbsup: All component cells are UL-1642 compliant. Deans Ultra connectors are standard.
Designed for exceptional power output, durability, and safe operation, Hypersonic™ Lithium Ion is the next generation battery for the R/C market. Using a unique, patented, revolutionary lithium-ion chemistry developed at A123 Systems, Hypersonic™ packs provide high performance and abuse-tolerance unmatched by any other battery chemistry.
With its ultra low-impedance design and high power capability, Hypersonic™ offers high performance and long cycle life characteristics in a robust, safe package, able to deliver up to 60C burst rates.
Hypersonic™ packs can also be connected together to create custom configurations for almost any electric propulsion application.
Experience a new level of battery performance in R/C vehicles with A123 Systems Hypersonic™ Lithium Ion.
Specs
Type:Lithium Ion
Capacity:4600 mAh
Voltage:6.6v
Connector Type: Deans Ultra (wsd1300)
Maximum Continuous Discharge :30C
Maximum Burst Discharge :60C
Maximum Continuous Current :69A (138A Pulse)
.............

I know the price for the battery pack is a little steep, but give this technology another year, maybe even less, and I'm sure prices will come down. A123 Systems is already being used in the cordless tools market as well as a bunch of other applications. So as production increases, the technology is sure to become more and more affordable.

I hear ya, got two nitro pan cars myself but that's a tough switch for the carpet guys, lol. If you think Paragon fumes were bad:freak:wait till you get a load of those Nitro Fumes!!

Nitro fumes woo hoo, been into North East modifieds for most of my life. The smell of an alcohol burning small block gets me going.:woohoo:

...when looking for something 'different' about 18 months ago... I had looked at the A123 cells, we even had a driver try them out...

There were no real negatives at that time, except they weren't real available (which has changed from what I've seen) There wasn't a good set up that could be used easily in an oval car, partly due to the size of the pack that was avail. then. (I believe some of that has changed too) Chargers were more different than a LIPO charger..and more specific, due to the LOWER voltage of the A123 type cell....plus they were a bit more pricey yet.

When looking at "A123" Cells, don't go by the brand go by the Chemistry "LiFePo4" There are other brands that make cells just as capible and safe as A123. I even have some "Life" cells in Sub-C size. Yes A123 is the benchmark for absolute "Burst" power, but the other brands have A123 beat in capacity by 20% and higher.

If users abuse LiPO's and create fires at tracks and homes, the hobby will naturally shift to the safe LiFePO4 cells because we are not responsible to walk around with a "loaded gun".

Someone should do a Lipo tutorial...."how to" charge, discharge, maintain, cycle, store, how to balance, precautions to take etc. That might help some of us understand Lipo's better.


i'm sure someoe from orion is reading all of this and is going to school us up on the subject...and answer any and all questions we have...:rolleyes:

just like danny from SMC is doing right now over on rctech!!!!!!!:thumbsup:


outlaw and trail i like your posts!

Hey FISH, why the heck are you always BAGGIN on Orion? You got a personal GRUDGE against them?

Orion was talking about LIPO over on RCTECH and answering questions 2 years ago... Joel Johnson (Then President of ORION) Rick Hohwart (Then w/ Orion...now w/ Team Associated) Cliff Black (AKA MrBlack on RCTech) along with Joe Pillars and others answered questions that were asked.

btw...

They HAVE Sponsored EVENTS
They HAVE Sponsored OVAL EVENTS
They HAVE Answered Questions about LIPOS *Mainly Theirs

RCTech Thread about the Orion 3200 (OLD) (http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123772&highlight=3200+lipo)

RCTech Thread about Orion Lipo Safety (http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=190493&highlight=3200+lipo)

I followed this discussion for a while before we started messing with these batteries...in late Feb/early March of last year....and I was asking more questions in April of 07.

no grudge joe...i just never see them on here defending or explaining anything...

what happens if novak puts out a quality 3600 lipo?

what happens if novak puts out a quality 3600 lipo?

I'm sure some people would buy it..and run it... but as long as our cap is set LOWER it would be like the ORION Brushless Motors...NOT LEGAL!

You only rate a company who has people TROLL the Net to get beat up and berated by a bunch of racers.

We LOST Dawn from ROAR because she got Beat Up and was shown a lot of disrespect, and I've seen and talked to several others who WON'T come back for similar reasons...cause all they get is WHINED at, or complaints..NO MATTER how hard they try.

As I said in another post - the POLITICS of RC ain't for the FAINT of Heart.

Kat- As big as we think Hobbytalk is, RCtech is 2x bigger. They want to reach as many people as possible at one time. Look at this Poll, about 70 people voted.

Nothing bad against Hobbytalk, I like it better the rctech. Just saying that could be a reason.

I don 't go to other forums... how popular are their Oval forums?

Their oval forum is basically non-existant.

Hank, this is the only real source for "Oval" racing. More info here than any other R/C site on the net. It's been said many times before but all I can say is "THANX"

Hank, this is the only real source for "Oval" racing. More info here than any other R/C site on the net. It's been said many times before but all I can say is "THANX"

Yup

+1

Twice the size, twice the crap over there too!! Kat- As big as we think Hobbytalk is, RCtech is 2x bigger. They want to reach as many people as possible at one time. Look at this Poll, about 70 people voted.

Nothing bad against Hobbytalk, I like it better the rctech. Just saying that could be a reason.

hank rctech is made up of 70% of

"where is mike black stock going next"

"where is such and such goingnext"


but 30% of it is good

like danny at SMC trying his best to explain lipo.....that is at least 15% of the good over there

and oval racing on rc tech is 90% crc battle axe race reports with some guy using 4 pinks on his car?????? go figure,lol

Ummmm.... This wasn't meant to get into any site bashing. I was just asking a question as I just don't have the time to visit other forums. I did go and visit since this came up. There is no need to make any more comments on it. Thanks!

BTW, Hank, thanks for this site, lots of good stuff here!!!

I voted no limit in any class. I might be wrong, but isn't voltage the determining factor for speed? I don't see how a 6000mah will be any better than a good 3200nah. I do see an advantage with the sub c pack because they will charge well over 8.4v and be faster to begin with. I personally hate "spec" racing cause it "pushes" racers away with something they have to buy to race in each different class. Checkered Flag raceway in KS draws 80+ entries each race. It is dirt but no battery limit so all batteries are good to run and everyone has their choice instead of being told what they can run. Same thing goes for motors and speed controls. If you want the sprot to grow, don't push the new comers away and tell them they can't run what they have, you need to spend more money.

I voted no limit in any class. I might be wrong, but isn't voltage the determining factor for speed? I don't see how a 6000mah will be any better than a good 3200nah. I do see an advantage with the sub c pack because they will charge well over 8.4v and be faster to begin with. I personally hate "spec" racing cause it "pushes" racers away with something they have to buy to race in each different class. Checkered Flag raceway in KS draws 80+ entries each race. It is dirt but no battery limit so all batteries are good to run and everyone has their choice instead of being told what they can run. Same thing goes for motors and speed controls. If you want the sprot to grow, don't push the new comers away and tell them they can't run what they have, you need to spend more money.

Two things matter the capacity and the C rating. Yes, a higher capacity battery will be faster as the voltage curve will be higher than a lower capacity battery. Even if they had same average voltage throughout a full cycle.

You can't compare dirt oval to pan cars. In dirt oval horsepower is less important since you can't put it to the ground anyway. With pan cars every bit of HP can be put down, so there is an advantage to always having the latest and greatest battery or motor. That is why we look to limit things, otherwise costs will spiral out of control with a new battery or motor hitting the shelves every month.

So far the POLL numbers seem to reflect the basic attitude I see from racers.

A fairly large group wants it ONE way..but about 1/2 of the rest of the group wants what they want in all kind of splinters directions.

But I think you will see the same limit for all classes be like 5000 mah or something.

Lets hope not.

But I think you will see the same limit for all classes be like 5000 mah or something.

I really hope some of the guys who are thinking that way...actually try RUNNING the class with the lower rated packs FIRST.

This would be (To me) one of those things that is just a waste...

NOW if guys would get off the 4 minute deal, and do some LONG enduros...FINE - lets go 5000 mah and run for 15 minutes.

I hope whatever is selected is the cheapest possible pack that can make run time with a 17.5 motor. I don't want to pay an extra 70 so I can watch the pack sit on my GFX longer after racing is over.

Hopefully Mike and Sonny will come together on this spec pack deal. I think that would be a huge boost for racing.

Pat,

what have you run w/ the LIPO so far, and what kind of mAh are you using?

I haven't watched my numbers for a while (I run both 17.5 and 21.5),but it seems to me it was around 1300-1500 mAh in 21.5 and 1700-1800mAh in 17.5. That's for 5 minute racing.

So I would have to think if we are using around 1800 for 5 minutes in 17.5, a 4 minute race would pull closer to 1500 mAh.

I tried running 21.5 with an Orion 3200, 4 minute racing 366' cap tire track. To be honest I didn't pay alot of attention to how much was left in the pack. I think I was coming off with about 170s at 35A left in the pack. That comes out to about 1650 mAh left in the pack or 1550 used, if you want to look at it that way.

For fun we did a 75 lap race with 10 cars. It took about 8:15. Nobody hit the voltage cut off.