i really dont wish to call the 2 of you out but......
between the BRL rules and what we run every year at the birds really sets up our rules for the up coming carpet season. lipo is coming 1 way or the other we need to set a MAH limit so people wont be afraid of buying something that will be out dated right a way.
while we are at it we need to get the weight issue taken care of also for lipo
we need to get it back down to 38 or 39 oz.
21.5 lipo could easily be the biggest class this year if people will hop the fence but i know a lot of people are waiting to jump because they do not know what to buy.

thanks guys

alan behler

looks like a game of chicken brewin?

ttt, can hardly wait to hear from two of the best race organizers in R/C

Mike and I talk frequently and both understand Lipo is coming on strong…(I’m racing them on the dirt right now and love it.) I don’t think either one of us have clear cut answers as of yet regarding classes or exact rules for the fall. We are definitely kicking around ideas and would like to try to work together and keep the rules and class package as close as possible.

The biggest problem we both face is the ability to tech various motors and batteries. For 90% of the racers you can give them a set of guidelines and they will adhere to it. The other 10% will exploit every loop hole and basically cause havoc for everyone else. There are also a few manufactures that like to play outside the box. If we go the spec motor spec battery route everyone complains because the sponsor they get a 50% off deal does not have a chance to play. It’s a catch 22.

The Lipo deal works great on dirt because you have a limited amount of traction. On carpet it is going to be a different story. We have unlimited traction and can put down every ounce of power we can get out of the battery. There for to be competitive on carpet with an open battery rule you will be going thru Lipo packs every couple of months… Mah and C rating limits will not work as the packaging and sticker may look the same but the chemistry of the cells will not be…There are for more player in the Lipo market and the rate of development is going to be pretty rapid over the next year.

Having said that I would hate to see racers spend more on the same poor quality NiMh cells that we had to choose from last season. But if some want to do that I’m ok with it.

You could say pretty much the same deal on the Motor and ESC side if it was opened up….

So from my stand point you the racers need to figure out what you want. Instead of having a debate post some on-line polls. Spec battery or open. Same for motor and speedo’s.

If you guys want a spec lipo battery I have reputable manufacture that can get it done and keep the variance of the cells to less than 2%. Cost would be on par with everything else. It’s up to you.


I think Mike and I have proven that we have the ability to run good events and enjoy doing so. But I think were both growing tired of taking a beating over rules and manufacturing issues that happen outside of our control.

We are both watching but I think the racers need to figure out what they really want.

Good post Sonny. I know you guys are working hard to figure it out. IF LiPo is coming that quickly(and we know it is) I'm all for you releasing a pack deemed for BRL use. If it's something Mike feels confident will work for his LiPo classes(if he chooses to offer) then that's even better. I'm encouraged that Mike feels strongly that there NEEDS to be offerings in the traditional 4 cell classes as some guys, right or wrong, still like that configuration. I'll continue to run my old fashioned 4 cell 13.5 stuff until a clearer option has been decided upon.

Time for a Rossburg porch summit. :)

dk

I would like to come to the Rossburg porch summit - just for the views and cookies.

I would like to come to the Rossburg porch summit - just for the views and cookies.
NIP. Brown is already near the cliff on carpet/traction/foam tires, etc. You'll push him over the edge and steal all his cookies. But...there might be a sudden Slider Driveway 100 where the tires, batteries and bodies are spec equipment. I don't want to hear your excuses when your 2 second lead evaporates because you pushed up into the duck droppings in turn 3.
You need me to send you the addy for your Garmin?

dk

Great post Sonny!

Right now, I am learning all this and really trying to digest what is going on and what is going to happen in the future. I still believe that 4cell racing is going to be strong, as is 21.5 Lipo. One of the biggest issues I see is having the 'oval nation' agree on a battery limit for the 21.5 for the upcoming season. 3600 and under has a nice ring to it? We are running a weight limit for LIPO down here at 38 OZ it seems to work great. Also why not allow Sub-C's to run 6cell with the 21.5 LIPOS? In road and dirt they allow both and the fact racers have a choice makes it easier. One does not stand out to be better than the other... then if a track only has 21.5 a racer can still race by throwing a pack together? Just a thought....

I know guys are worried what direction everything is going. It worries me how fast things are changing. I would feel better adopting new classes and technology more slower until we understand it fully.

I'd say go the spec battery route, that'd be great in my opinion. I think it'd be nice if Snowbirds then went the same direction. There is a group of racers that will be negative about anything with "BRL" attached to it, but if Snowbirds went that way as well it would almost force some unification of the rules.

I would disagree with allowing the NiMH to run with the 21.5. The only way that could work is if the class was anything goes for the LiPO, otherwise the NiMH is going to have a huge edge which would defeat the whole purpose of the class.

True on the advantage... it might work on road and dirt because they don't limit the LIPO's. Scratch that lol.

I am just glad that we have people like Sonny and Mike that care enough about oval racing to put up with all of the "stuff" that goes along with it. I trust that the decisions made by them will be what is best for the majority and what is best to move oval racing forward. I am not adding my opinions as I will support whatever they decide.

Sonny had a great idea in his post that everyone has ignored. Set up some polls and see what is the most popular with the drivers. Majority rules and then set the rules according to the votes. Re-evaluate he next year as by then, Lipo will be obsolete and Li Ion or something else will be taking their place. If I knew how to set up a poll I would do it. You need a poll for batt, motor, and esc as I understand the issues. My $.02

I would disagree with allowing the NiMH to run with the 21.5. The only way that could work is if the class was anything goes for the LiPO, otherwise the NiMH is going to have a huge edge which would defeat the whole purpose of the class.


True on the advantage... it might work on road and dirt because they don't limit the LIPO's. Scratch that lol.


Don't forget...in On-Road and OffRoad the LIPO cars still have to make the weight of a NIMH car which is 6 cell.

If you set the weight limit in oval based on what the car weighs w/ LIPO and someone tries running a 6 cell - they are going to be MAJOR Heavy. (We had guys try it on the VELO w/ LIPO vs 6 cell w/ 17.5's. The 6 cells got SMOKED....and were very very heavy.)

I would disagree with allowing the NiMH to run with the 21.5. The only way that could work is if the class was anything goes for the LiPO, otherwise the NiMH is going to have a huge edge which would defeat the whole purpose of the class.

I DONT KNOW IF THEY WOULD HAVE AN ADVANTAGE THINK OF ALL THE EXTRA WEIGHT THEY WILL BE CARRYING... HEY MIKE NEXT SUNDAY AT THE TRACK I WILL SLIDE A 6 CELL BATTERY INTO MY 21.5 LIPO CAR AND WE CAN LOOK AT THE LAP TIMES

Also why not allow Sub-C's to run 6cell with the 21.5 LIPOS? In road and dirt they allow both and the fact racers have a choice makes it easier. One does not stand out to be better than the other... then if a track only has 21.5 a racer can still race by throwing a pack together? Just a thought....

On paper that sounds like a good idea, I would like to see how that works out. It would sure make the change over a little easier to swallow for some people.

I think oval racers shouldn't be as worried about what motor/battery/speed control is legal for 2008-2009, but what will happen to anyone that violates the rules.

I think what r/c oval racing really needs is a zero tolerance policy on rules violations. Whether the violation was deliberate or not, you get disqualified or your car doesn't even get to make a qualifying attempt until it is fixed. Whether the person found in violation of the rule was a factory sponsored driver, local "pro", friend of the race director, or average joe - you get disqualified. If you car is .00001 under weight, you get disqualified. If you have a loose screw that is touching the ride height gauge, you get disqualified. If you break any rule, your qualifying run is disqualified or you are not allowed to attempt to qualify.

I'm confident that race promoters like Sonny and Mike will come up with rules that will make sense for 2008-2009 that most racers will be happy with. I'm also sure that they will modify the rules as the season progresses to address the things that are unforeseeable today. But even if we are racing rubber band powered cars on guide wires, the rules must be applied evenly and strictly enforced or we might as well have only 1 class - open mod.

I know guys are worried what direction everything is going. It worries me how fast things are changing. I would feel better adopting new classes and technology more slower until we understand it fully.

I think this is a great statement. Seems too often that some racers want to force the technology barrier without any set rules in place (as a track owner, we seen this in on-road last winter, and at times it got a little ugly).

I believe a spec battery/motor would be the best way to control that 10% of racers that push the limits. I know that would not work well for sponsored racers, but a spec class is not for them. The purpose is to get all racers on the same equipment. For the BRL, the Novak motor /ESC and the LRP ESC worked very well until a sponsored racers found the need to go beyond the limits for a big race win. Have an open class for those that must be sponsored driven for batteries and motors.
Why should 80% of the racers(ones not on battery and motor deals) have to race equipment that 20% of the racers get for free or a substantially lower price. I think a spec class for the 21.5/ lipo would be the largest class at most races. Maybe it could be a sportsman class.
No matter what ROAR does the racers in most areas will look to the BRL and Snowbirds for rules. Yes, Sonny and Mike have that much influence in oval racing. Mike for having the largest oval race, better than ROAR could ever do on carpet and Sonny for putting organization in a new technology for oval racing.
Yes, things are changing fast and I hope that some unity can be found with the BRL and the Snowbirds. I bet that 80% of tracks and racers will want to use your rules.

This is just my opinion. I could be wrong

Well now that just makes sense! Thanks Larry! Indy, I am a big fan of ZERO tolerance but we will go a step further. A motor or battery violation will be an expulsion from the track for the rest of the race day or event.I believe a spec battery/motor would be the best way to control that 10% of racers that push the limits. I know that would not work well for sponsored racers, but a spec class is not for them. The purpose is to get all racers on the same equipment. For the BRL, the Novak motor /ESC and the LRP ESC worked very well until a sponsored racers found the need to go beyond the limits for a big race win. Have an open class for those that must be sponsored driven for batteries and motors.
Why should 80% of the racers(ones not on battery and motor deals) have to race equipment that 20% of the racers get for free or a substantially lower price. I think a spec class for the 21.5/ lipo would be the largest class at most races. Maybe it could be a sportsman class.
No matter what ROAR does the racers in most areas will look to the BRL and Snowbirds for rules. Yes, Sonny and Mike have that much influence in oval racing. Mike for having the largest oval race, better than ROAR could ever do on carpet and Sonny for putting organization in a new technology for oval racing.
Yes, things are changing fast and I hope that some unity can be found with the BRL and the Snowbirds. I bet that 80% of tracks and racers will want to use your rules.

This is just my opinion. I could be wrong

If you guys want a spec lipo battery I have reputable manufacture that can get it done and keep the variance of the cells to less than 2%. Cost would be on par with everything else. It’s up to you.

I beleive this would the first step in making the rules for a Lipo 21.5 class for the BRL. Right now I see the whole Lipo deal needing to start the same as the brushless motor. With so many choices between brands and Mahs, until things get understood more by everyone, a "SPEC" battery should make things easier for now. In my opinion, I'd make the 21.5 Lipo class a spec class allowing only a certain battery and Novak only motors along with Novak and LRP speedos. For those who want more choices open up the 17.5 Lipo class to any motor and speedo and battery. I'd still like to see a 4 cell 17.5 class and 13.5. I want to run the 21.5 Lipo class, but would feel better about it if it were a spec class. If this class replaces 4 cell 13.5 I'd be ok with as long as 4 cell 17.5 was still offered.

I think what r/c oval racing really needs is a zero tolerance policy on rules violations. Whether the violation was deliberate or not, you get disqualified or your car doesn't even get to make a qualifying attempt until it is fixed. Whether the person found in violation of the rule was a factory sponsored driver, local "pro", friend of the race director, or average joe - you get disqualified. If you car is .00001 under weight, you get disqualified. If you have a loose screw that is touching the ride height gauge, you get disqualified. If you break any rule, your qualifying run is disqualified or you are not allowed to attempt to qualify.


Personally, I believe the FORCE of the rule should be weighed against the SIZE/TYPE of event and the severity of the rules infraction.

HARDLINE is good - In theory. But, a race director also has to remember RACES are a Dime a Dozen...and you drive a racer away today - GOOD LUCK getting him back tomorrow...and/or HIS Friends.

Most OVAL events can't afford to LOSE racers...for ANY reason.

Sometimes taking the HARDLINE at CLUB races - will really hurt you. Especially if it's NOT something that was a saftey issue or a performance enhancement.

Some guys will measure, weigh, and comb EVERY rule in a book to run in the GRAY everywhere he can... Others just THROW a car together...stick the body on it..and have NO clue what the RULE BOOK even looks like.

Just a bit off topic.... at a local "big" race we had a guy that was panelized one lap off his main finish because he didn't marshal. When the main started everyone stayed on the starting line while that guy made one lap putting everyone even :)

The only issue I have with a low mAh "spec" battery for lower classes is if someone wants to move up to another class, that "spec" battery wouldn't cut it in the upper classes and they would have to buy new batteries. IMHO, have a battery spec for all classes that is the same and spec a battery that is large enough (5000+ mAh) that it will not be outdated in 3 months.

My two cents.
At any event be it the worlds our just a local club race only TWO classes are needed. On any size track.This being a transiton year. They should be 4 cell 13.5 any manufator. And true open mod not this limited mod B.S.. They can run lipo battery or 4 or 6cell packs and any motor of any size they want. If some person decides to bring a 21.5 to a race were all the other people are runnig 10.5 lipos who cares. Its there own fault for bring a knife to a gun fight. If thats all they have or thats all the can keep on the track TO DARN BAD. Not everbody can win each week. As that person devlops they will bwcome a better driver and start to win in time. Thats how they it was done in the 80s and it worked. Sorry sometimes truth hurts. The number of racers was bigger and it sure was a lot of fun.

I'm confident that race promoters like Sonny and Mike will come up with rules that will make sense for 2008-2009 that most racers will be happy with.

i see this in every other post...

but what i read from sonny is...

WE the racers need to decide what we want to race? ouch!

4 cell stock
4 cell 10.5
4 cell 13.5
lipo/21.5 3600 mah cap
17.5 lipo 5000 mah cap

but we are deciding on alot of things we haven't even tried yet?

and every class but stock has another class going the same speeds but with different batteries and motors?


BUT if sonny can get another comapny other than ORION to lock in a lipo pack each year for oval use i'm down with that in 21.5 17.5 should have some looser restrictions let that be the class guys with 50% off deals can feel like they are doing something for the company they are sponsored by..besides if your sponsored you need to be in 10.5 or 17.5 anyways...

leaving this stuff up to 30 guys who post on hobby talk is scary...because you won't get everyone to post there thought...

and a poll will get guys who run sliders voting for us!

oh and if you make the snowbirds a direct copy of the birds sonny may as well add that race to his series...this way i can get points for one race of the brl...there would be no difference between any of them?

Kat, I have to agree with your list of classes. Start there and see how attendance is in each. Like my earlier post, I'd like to see the 21.5 Lipo have a spec battery and along with this class and the 4 cell 13.5 and 17.5, stay with Novak only motors and Novak, LRP speedos. Let the 4 cell 10.5 and Lipo 17.5 be open to any manufactures motor and speedo. As of late, these have been more of the sponsored classes.

ok than it's settled...we can expect 35.00 for zkat race.org membership fees he he

Mike & Sonny I know that you are both in a tough postion with so many of us looking to your events & rules to set rules for local racing. This is a testament to how popular your events are.

But to leave this decision up to the racers at this time is not a good idea. It has never worked in full size racing- see the CART/IRL split for the most noteworthy example. If it I were in your postion I would set the rules & let the people come if they like them & stay home if they don't. You both have enough connections in the hobby to get a good idea of what the immediate future holds so you both are way ahead of what most of the people that will come to your events know.

Why reinvent the wheel? Orion is a large company and the batteries are readily available. If you are going to spec one battery every year., why not stay with whats been working.

Kat- what do you have against Orion? :)

I couldn't agree with you more Bob on not letting the racers set the rules, racers can be their worst enemies in time. Sure get their input but let Sonny and Mike and other organizers set the rules.

as far as the lower Mah packs in the HIGHER classes. The 17.5 class w/ LIPO is FAST, and a speed most of the top drivers can be happy with.

The small handful of guys wanting something faster...can have ONE larger pack (if needed) but even the 17.5 class (which is FAST) only uses about 1/2 the capacity of a 3200 Orion pack in 5 minute racing. A 10.5 WILL take ALL a 3200 in 5 minutes on a HOOKED UP track, don't know how much it would use in 4 min. racing (cause we do 5)

We do and HAVE run a class of 10.5/LIPO - although we only get 3-4 guys willing to go THAT fast. It is a good/fun speed on tracks over 300 ft. in length though...

I wish MORE of the guys who haven't yet RUN B/L w/ LIPO would get a chance to run it with a simple 3200 battery...and SEE what's left in the battery. I think THAT in itself may help with some of these issues.

As with NIMH - everybody WANTS BIGGER - and with NIMH and MOD - you could DUMP them... but I can't see that w/ 21.5 and/or 17.5 LIPO.

I WANT SOMEBODY TO PROVE ME WRONG - - - PLEASE!!!

NIP. Brown is already near the cliff on carpet/traction/foam tires, etc. You'll push him over the edge and steal all his cookies. But...there might be a sudden Slider Driveway 100 where the tires, batteries and bodies are spec equipment. I don't want to hear your excuses when your 2 second lead evaporates because you pushed up into the duck droppings in turn 3.
You need me to send you the addy for your Garmin?

dk

1) I will enter the Slider Driveway 100 only if I can enter as a 2 car team- if 'Syd Slideways' can't run, either can I (team orders). As for turn 3, you call it duck droppings, I call it the cushion...:thumbsup:

2) I don't want to hear any excuses from the midwest when Syd laps all of us with her Spec Slider, whose wing appears to have lost some of its screws causing it to lean in ways you find offensive. All whining must be made to her mentor...he's the guy in the orange Crocs.

3) I can pass on the cookies, but Sydney will be relentless. She has the power to weasel them out of you, Sonny and Mom, simultaneously...Cookies to Syd is like spinach to Popeye.

4) As for Sonny: No need to worry. He is receiving dirt oval therapy on a weekly basis, which cures any carpet ailments he may have, without that Ben-Gay scent. Dr. Crankenstein predicts a full recovery.

As for the addy, I'm assuming the summit is on Earle and Bernice's old porch?

I wish MORE of the guys who haven't yet RUN B/L w/ LIPO would get a chance to run it with a simple 3200 battery...and SEE what's left in the battery. I think THAT in itself may help with some of these issues.


Ok Joe, we've had this debate before. Its not about the runtime, its about the voltage. If the Mah were open to anything and knowing the higher Mah batteries have more voltage, who in their competative mind is going to pick a 3200 over a 5000? If there was a class for 65 turn crawler motors and open Mah Lipos, which Mah batteries would still be used? The ONLY reason there needs to be a Mah cap is to keep everyone from running out every week and buying the newest battery that has 100 Mah more than the previous highest Mah. I believe this would be best for the 21.5 class. The 17.5 and open mod classes can use whatever because these classes draw sponsored drivers and drivers with a big budget.

the roion thing is very easy for me...

they do nothing for oval...nothing...0 promotion...0 raffle prizes...

they don't come on here and dispel lipo rumors...

look at rc tech danny from smc is answering questions night and day...these are the companies i would support..

power push has been selling batteries for over 20 years now....

we all forget so quickly...there is alot better than orion out there....


what if when we ran nimh cells that we were told we could only buy our packs from trinity? just trinity and no one else......hmmmmmmmmmm

21.45 lipo can do what they want.....

leave 17.5 with a cap on the mah rating.......

AND I AGREE SOMEONE REALY DOES NEED TO TELL US WHAT WE NEED TO BUY FOR THE 2009 SEASON....problem is will something better than lipo be out?

they do nothing for oval...nothing...0 promotion...0 raffle prizes...


Have you asked them to?

They DID sponsor OUR series last year, and had some good prizes, and they sponsored our SHOOTOUT race with even MORE High$$ prizes this year...

I dealt w/ Joe Pillars and Cliff Black last year - and Joel Johnson (KYOSHO) and Joe Pillars this year.

ORION is/has been going through a lot of changes in the last year, when they were bought by KYOSHO. Long Time Peak/Orion U.S. head Rick Howart was replaced, and went to Team Associated.

ORION did not solicit the OVAL market with their Product - they were solicited and invited to be a part.

Ok Joe, we've had this debate before. Its not about the runtime, its about the voltage. If the Mah were open to anything and knowing the higher Mah batteries have more voltage, who in their competative mind is going to pick a 3200 over a 5000?

NOBODY! But that has NOTHING to do with the arguement.

KEEP the 5000's out of the MIX, the SPEEDS (which is what the VOLTAGE is going to bring you) is already MORE than FAST enough with the current cell.

The "AVERAGE VOLTAGE" of the 3200 during the runs (especially in 4 min.) have very little drop off. HOW FREAKING MUCH DO YOU NEED?

You want MORE SPEED - RUN a HOTTER MOTOR CLASS - Leave 17.5 AND 21.5 ALONE!~

RUN 13.5/LIPO w/ What EVER battery you want - RUN 10.5 LIPO w/ What ever battery you want...hell run a separate 17.5 PRO class with ANY BRAND MOTOR and SIZE BATTERY and give it HELL... But leave a 17.5 and a 21.5 class for the REST OF THE WORLD w/ a SPEC!

Easy Joe, I am all for a cap rule. I just don't understand why you think that given a choice people won't want chose the higher Mah Lipo over a lower. If the rules are set for capping the Mah then everything will be fine. If its left open in any class then are you going to tell everyone to stay out of 17.5 and 21.5 because they are wanting to go fast?

1) I will enter the Slider Driveway 100 only if I can enter as a 2 car team- if 'Syd Slideways' can't run, either can I (team orders). As for turn 3, you call it duck droppings, I call it the cushion...:thumbsup:

2) I don't want to hear any excuses from the midwest when Syd laps all of us with her Spec Slider, whose wing appears to have lost some of its screws causing it to lean in ways you find offensive. All whining must be made to her mentor...he's the guy in the orange Crocs.

3) I can pass on the cookies, but Sydney will be relentless. She has the power to weasel them out of you, Sonny and Mom, simultaneously...Cookies to Syd is like spinach to Popeye.

4) As for Sonny: No need to worry. He is receiving dirt oval therapy on a weekly basis, which cures any carpet ailments he may have, without that Ben-Gay scent. Dr. Crankenstein predicts a full recovery.

As for the addy, I'm assuming the summit is on Earle and Bernice's old porch?

I give. The mere mention of The Man(note caps for respect) in the orange crocs leaves me speechless. Why not field a third car and put Fred behind the wheel?
As for Sonny..last I heard he was having custom 22" pin spikes installed on the Million Mile Magnum. Remember...if it's foam or has grooves, Sonny opposes. On the other hand...there's never been a Ma Kemp cookie that didn't pass his tech. :)

See ya Saturday.

dk

Oh and back to the topic at hand......I'll still hang on hope for my NiMh packs until told otherwise. If it must be LiPo...make it a Sonny/Mike spec pack....don't care what's in it as long as we're all on it. Make it sealed with a BRL/Snowbirds/etc. logo and serial number sticker that is tamper proof and I'll play along.

Ok my 2 cents worth We run lipo and nimh togather on our oval for the most the lipo will kick butt but i've seen trucks with the right set up win with nimh cells this was on a dirt oval and yes carpet is way different so I agree we need rules but you can't just tell some one what he or she can run without leaving a bad taste in some mouths and you all know who those people will be

1) I will enter the Slider Driveway 100 only if I can enter as a 2 car team- if 'Syd Slideways' can't run, either can I (team orders). As for turn 3, you call it duck droppings, I call it the cushion...:thumbsup:

2) I don't want to hear any excuses from the midwest when Syd laps all of us with her Spec Slider, whose wing appears to have lost some of its screws causing it to lean in ways you find offensive. All whining must be made to her mentor...he's the guy in the orange Crocs.

3) I can pass on the cookies, but Sydney will be relentless. She has the power to weasel them out of you, Sonny and Mom, simultaneously...Cookies to Syd is like spinach to Popeye.

4) As for Sonny: No need to worry. He is receiving dirt oval therapy on a weekly basis, which cures any carpet ailments he may have, without that Ben-Gay scent. Dr. Crankenstein predicts a full recovery.

As for the addy, I'm assuming the summit is on Earle and Bernice's old porch?

I give. The mere mention of The Man(note caps for respect) in the orange crocs leaves me speechless. Why not field a third car and put Fred behind the wheel?
As for Sonny..last I heard he was having custom 22" pin spikes installed on the Million Mile Magnum. Remember...if it's foam or has grooves, Sonny opposes. On the other hand...there's never been a Ma Kemp cookie that didn't pass his tech. :)

See ya Saturday.

dk

Oh and back to the topic at hand......I'll still hang on hope for my NiMh packs until told otherwise. If it must be LiPo...make it a Sonny/Mike spec pack....don't care what's in it as long as we're all on it. Make it sealed with a BRL/Snowbirds/etc. logo and serial number sticker that is tamper proof and I'll play along.

Yes IMO foams on dirt about as useful as a straight man going to a Clay Akien concert.

As for the cookies I have been known to partake in chocolate chip or two. (BTW; I hear they go great with breakfast). But if Sydney shows up I've got nothing for her. I'll leave it up to Smoke to fight that battle (I still think he needs to replace that Built by The Home Depot logo on the front of his uniform to Built by Fern's Kitchen. Somehow it seems more appropriate these days.)

Trust me we all have nothing on the Mangler when it comes to the Ice Cream dessert. As DW recently said boogity, boogity, boogity that boy can eat….

As for the Slider showdown new wing rules have been put in place. The man in the orange crocks will not be happy.

I just don't understand why you think that given a choice people won't want chose the higher Mah Lipo over a lower.

It's been proven time after time, that racers are their own worst enemies though...

They THINK or SAY they want BIGGER, MORE, Etc. But how does it HELP anything...

If everybody has the SAME THING, and it's way beyond what you can use...isn't it basically just a TOTAL Waste of MONEY?

Right now, especially....WHO wants to just WASTE money?

I'm thinking I'd like to field a two-car Slider team. Think I can bring my son out of "retirement" to wheel a car, especially if cookies are being tossed around...

What RR tire hooks up best on duck droppings?

We've been in this hobby long enough to know that people will always waste money trying to be as fast or faster than the fast guy. I don't want to waste money thats why I'd like see a cap on Mah or a spec battery that will be around for at least 6 months. The point I'm trying to make is that unless a cap is made, people will "waste" their money every chance they get if it means that they can think they have what it takes to win.

We've been in this hobby long enough to know that people will always waste money trying to be as fast or faster than the fast guy. I don't want to waste money thats why I'd like see a cap on Mah or a spec battery that will be around for at least 6 months.

I support the ORIGINAL Cap put in place w/ ARCOR originally was working on HER One class of BL/LIPO.

The WILDFIRE Spread of LIPO came because guys heard about it...tried it...LIKED IT, and went with that battery.

...the 3200 ORION battery has been around not 6 months..but about 3 years

The fact that we've been using it for ONE FULL year already in "RACE MODE" not to mention the several months of testing it...is a whole lot more than can be said for pretty much ANY NiMh packs.

The 3200 is being replaced with a 3400 - I'm betting the 3200 for MOST racers will still be competitive w/ a 3400, but it will NOT be competitive against a 5000.

So for those 150+ or MORE guys who already have GONE lipo, and GONE 3200... SCR W you Guys... We're going BIG!

Are you two saying essentially the same thing? I know and agree with Derek's stance on it, but sounds like you, Joe, are kinda saying the same thing?

I do know one thing. It sure would be nice if Orion kept on to that 3200 race spec. Just when it gets where it could be right thing, right time- it's gone...

Todd,

About a year and a half ago when we started doing testing w/ the LIPO (JB and ARCOR did hers and we did ours) ORION told ME at that time that the 3200 was already over 2 years old, and would be most likely get upgraded. At that time they said since we were bringing a new market to it, they would make sure it was available another year.

They did that, and when they came out with their 3600, they made it a larger/heavier case, aimed at making the "OTHER R/C WORLD" happy with a heavier pack. (It's still too light for them)

I don't believe the 3400 is OUT and AVAILABLE yet. ORION didn't have any instock a couple weeks ago when I talked to them via Email.

For the product to be continued...it will need a market. (As do all products) but there was already a plan to upgrade the 3200 before we brought the OVAL market to THAT battery.

We got our promised year...although personally I had hoped it wouldn't be 'discontinued' and pulled from the market before Nov/Dec. These batteries ARE still available in a lot of hobbyshops. I don't know what kind of stock DISTRIBUTORS have.

The Importer "ORION" has no more 'In Stock' but there could still be 100's in the purchasing channels...(I know one of my racers called me the other day and told me a Southern Cal HOBBY SHOP had about a DOZEN of them on their shelf, and JPH Hobbies had about 1/2 dozen still in stock. ) That's just 2 HOBBY SHOPS in Ca.

I'm also hearing the Associated/LRP 3200 runs virtually identical to the ORION (Haven't tested it myself...but one of our racers works for Associated, and he's run both.)

Personally, I don't think Z-Main and I are very far off from one another...

Cool. Yeah, the 3200 is a good pack (I had one, never gave me a lick of problems (and I bought it used)). I just hate to see guys get "stuck" with stuff as new technology comes out, that's all. I commend Orion on keeping something out that long (which rarely seems to happen, especially with a battery!). Just one of those things, you know?

We get stuck with all kinds of things all the time, becuase technology advances everyday...... Not just R/C equipment...........

There is always gonna be something better, look at your computer or car buy it today and its out of date in 6 months..........

...seems like just a YEAR ago we ran EXPLODING 4200's, but now most of the NiMh world is running what 4600's? Who's running the NEW 5300 Nimh's yet...ANYONE...ANYONE...

Yet, we hear complaints about the LIPO changing - the difference is - a new NiMh comes out, and all those MATCHERS everyone loves so much...automatically want to jump to the NEW CELL cause it's gonna SELL more than the OLD cell.

At least it looks like w/ LIPO while there MAY be a Higher mAh cell/pack - the LOWER mAh stuff continues to be QUITE available...