Most of the info we all have been wondering about is right here on hobbytalk. These are not my numbers nore have I tested it myself. Your results may vary!

Taken from the SMC thread:

SMC 28c 5000 530 Runtime 7.43 AV 5.0 IR
SMC 28c 4000 430 Runtime 7.35 AV 6.5 IR
SMC 28c 3200 350 Runtime 7.25 AV 8.0 IR
Common 3200 330 Runtime 7.11 AV 9.5 IR

Keep in mind, I highly doubt these numbers are based on the heat pad (130-140*, 4 cycles in a row, 12 amp charge methode. So I assume that if you do the "crazy" methode these #'s will look even better.

Orion 3200 thats been the most current lipo used and please keep in mind these numbers are the "crazy" charge methode for optium performance:

1 year old 3200
311 runtime
7.10 average voltage
10.7 IR

2 month old 3200
335 runtime
7.13 average voltage
9.2 IR

my worst pack is 7.11 330,my best pack 7.14 342

For comparision I assume that normal charging the Orion 3200 would be:

If you were to just top off the pack and cycle/discharge @ 35amps the voltage will be around 7.00+/-.



Just some info I have found by just using the "search" button.

...and we use 35 amp discharge because that is what we were using with Nimh batteries, but the fact of the matter is running 21.5 or 17.5 LIPO classes you'll never see that kind of 'average' amp draw so your run time will actually be quite a bit better than the times listed. (and your run voltage @ the actual amp draw will be a tad bit higher as well)

...this I need help with - how do you determine AMP rate?

if in 300 seconds (5 minutes) you use 1700 mAh, that would be 20,400 mah Per Hour or 20.4 AMPs right?

So if in a 5 minute race you only use 1700 mah, you'd be averaging a 20.4 amp pull ...correct?

..so a 1300 mah 5 min. run would be closer to 15.6 amp average pull for 5 minutes... is this correct?

Do I have the math correct?

What you really need to compare are the numbers from the SMC 5000 28C pack and the first SMC 5000 22C pack. Then you could compare apples to apples. The SMC 3200 isn't even out yet, so I know those numbers are an estimate. Sure it will be better, but how much is hard to say.

Does anyone have any numbers from an old SMC 5000, the new SMC 5000, and some other comanys 5000 pack? You would have to know the "C" rating of each pack, but I think those would be the numbers to compare.

By the time snowbirds comes around 32c packs will be out..plus bigger voltage.

..again, to compare the numbers in a TRUELY Usable fashion

COMPARE tham at a AMP RATE you'll actually be using as well...

with the higher wind motors, you will NOT be pulling 35 amps.

Do you feel the numbers would be more accurate? If thats was the case all the nimh matchers would be mathcing at 20-30 amps.

Do you feel the average between 2 different "c" rated packs would be closer of a match with the corrected amp load?

Just trying to see where your going with this, thats all?

Metal,

For STOCK racing, and 19t Racing - I used different AMPS to discharge my packs than I did for MODIFIED racing.

I always discharged my packs based on what I ran, and what 'average' amps I pulled.

MODIFIED racing I believe is what caused NiMh matchers to discharge at the high rates, cause those guys would discharge or KILL a pack in 4 minutes -

Stock racers though wouldn't even come close to dumping in 4 minutes - and if you use the 35 amps VOLT number for calculations - you are using a much LOWER voltage than what you are actual racing with. (Try running 4 cell Stock - see how many Mah's you take from your pack, calculate the average AMP draw - then discharge a pack at THAT rate and look at your average VOLTAGE) MUCH higher than what's rated on your pack.

Here's an example of some old data I had...

Back with the old RED 1400 Sub C Nicads. - a GOOD cell went approx 240 seconds @ 23 amps.

The 1700 scrc's went 240 seconds at apporx 28 amps.

The 2000's went 240 seconds at approx 31 amps.

Once we jumped into NiMh batteries, the testing AMPs really started getting high, cause they had so much more run time than the NiCads did.

MOD racers would DUMP a NiCad or NiMh cell regardless of the capacity - (which I always personally thought was INEFFICIENT) - because that was in excess of a 50 AMP average with 4200's.

LIPO/BL won't let you pull that way - with the 21.5 and 17.5 motors. (Lower Winds like 3.5's - WHO KNOWS - Who can drive a 3.5/LIPO???)

Metal,

MODIFIED racing I believe is what caused NiMh matchers to discharge at the high rates, cause those guys would discharge or KILL a pack in 4 minutes -



the higher amp rates

helped lower IR
helped weed out weak cells
allowed the matcher to turn over cells quicker
might have helped train the cells to dump there voltage quicker or allow the voltage to flo beter?

kat,

I know all that part - but it was races wanting more 'Real' data that asked for higher discharge in many cases. I know when most packs were being matched at much lower (20 amps) we'd match ours at the AMPS we actually used.

That gave us REAL run time and a REAL voltage number

...probably the biggest thing is - YOU Can't compare LIPO BRUSHLESS to anything you've ever done in R/C.

The technology works and performs so much different - and so much more efficiently

I know a little something about stock racing.........I run it a few times

Anyone that knows me knows that I hold weekly GFX 500 national's during the season.

Correct me if I am wrong

If 2 packs of Lipo's cycled at 35 amps have the exact same voltage, IR, and runtime
those 2 packs could be quite a bit different (performance advantage)at say 20 amps.

In testing nimh 4 cells I can say that if there was a difference at 20 amps it was so suttle that I didn't see it on the track.


Anyone can tell you that in mod/lipo the SMC 5000 is the only pack to have. Why wouldn't it be the same for the 3200.

Joe- I think we agree, just because there might be a better voltage pack out, it doesn't mean we need to switch. The only reasons i see for change would be cost or reliablity.


Brian

there's only about 10 guy's in the country that can wheel an open mod 6 cell\lipo car.

If 2 packs of Lipo's cycled at 35 amps have the exact same voltage, IR, and runtime
those 2 packs could be quite a bit different (performance advantage)at say 20 amps.

In testing nimh 4 cells I can say that if there was a difference at 20 amps it was so suttle that I didn't see it on the track.


Brian,

Either you lost me, or I lost you...but that's ok.

In a nutshell, all I'm saying is - TEST YOUR Packs at High Amp Rate to find your BEST Packs, then test them at the actual AMP Load you'd be racing - to get real 'Race Voltage' numbers.

I also don't recall off the top of my head how to calculate the difference in run time between 35 amp data and 20 amp data, but I think it would end up something like this...

If the 3200 pack shows 330 seconds of run time @ 35 amps, I'm thinking that would be around 576 seconds @ 20 amps. and about 770 seconds @ 15 amps.

So with a battery that will run a 21.5 motor at competitive speeds for 770 seconds (or 12.8 minutes), why on earth would we need to push to legalize a battery that would run competitively for 1237 seconds (20.6 minutes) for 4 or even 5 minutes worth of racing?

I posted these lap times in the 21.5 thread, but I'll post them here too.

Both of these runs were done in races, so there are cars on the track...and both drivers spent much of the race in fairly heavy traffic. But look at the time drop curve - this is a short asphalt track (about 60 x 80) I believe. Both 5 minute racing...

http://southwesttour.com/images/175_215.jpg

If the 3200 pack shows 330 seconds of run time @ 35 amps, I'm thinking that would be around 576 seconds @ 20 amps. and about 770 seconds @ 15 amps.

So with a battery that will run a 21.5 motor at competitive speeds for 770 seconds (or 12.8 minutes), why on earth would we need to push to legalize a battery that would run competitively for 1237 seconds (20.6 minutes) for 4 or even 5 minutes worth of racing?

The samething is said everytime a higher Mah sub-c cell came out. Its about the voltage curve. Batteries that have a ton of runtime keep higher voltage longer, which mean less dropoff during the race. Besides its not the issue of runtime, its voltage. I think there is enough data to prove that 5000 mah Lipo has alot more voltage than a 3200. More voltage means more speed. Same with the C rating. The higher C the less resistance the pack has. Also meaning more speed. This is why there needs to be a cap on Mah and the C rating. Or just say the hell with it and let any 2C Lipo go and watch the tears start to flow.

Exactly!

The problem is that the C rating is a rating set by the manufacturer and there is no way to verify it. The same can be said for the 1.2v rating on NiMh cells and we all know that all RC cells exceed that value. Who is going to test the cells... they would have to be tested at higher amp rates (5000mAh @ 28C is 140 amps!) until they fail and it would have to be with a number of each brand to allow for manufacturing variations.

The C rating is a spec the manufacturer puts on the cell where they claim it will survive those discharge rates. I would suspect they actually rate them at a lower rate then they really can survive as a safety factor. Maybe one manufacturer is OK with a 10% safety margin, maybe another will use a 20% safety margin. So from one manufacturer that 28C cell is actually a 30.8C and from another it is a 33.6C.... which cell you you think would actually perform better.

I go with Real Deel... He seems to know what hes talking about.. Ohhh by the way what are you talking about??

so we agree nimh has 3 cell manufacturers?

how many companies rate there "own" lipo cells?

is there 10 lipo companie with 10 different cells with 10 different "c" ratings?

or is it more like 3 companies putting there stickers on the cases and calling it there lipo packs?

so we agree nimh has 3 cell manufacturers?


This month...

I don't know if I could name them though - been too long since I had to buy one of those...

What ever happened to Sanyo and Panasonic?

This month...

I don't know if I could name them though - been too long since I had to buy one of those...

What ever happened to Sanyo and Panasonic?

Panasonic is producing alot of lipos and computers for the military.
If its go for the military its good for me...

Lipos IS the NEW electric!

I would guess there are 100s of NiMh manufacturers and I would also guess there are 100s of LiPo manufacturers. It's just that very few target this hobby market.

I would guess there are 100s of NiMh manufacturers and I would also guess there are 100s of LiPo manufacturers. It's just that very few target this hobby market.

More like 500 lipo companies now.
Most are in China.:freak:

The problem is that the C rating is a rating set by the manufacturer and there is no way to verify it. The same can be said for the 1.2v rating on NiMh cells and we all know that all RC cells exceed that value. Who is going to test the cells... they would have to be tested at higher amp rates (5000mAh @ 28C is 140 amps!) until they fail and it would have to be with a number of each brand to allow for manufacturing variations.

The C rating is a spec the manufacturer puts on the cell where they claim it will survive those discharge rates. I would suspect they actually rate them at a lower rate then they really can survive as a safety factor. Maybe one manufacturer is OK with a 10% safety margin, maybe another will use a 20% safety margin. So from one manufacturer that 28C cell is actually a 30.8C and from another it is a 33.6C.... which cell you you think would actually perform better.

This is why I don't buy into the "C" so called rating on the lipo packs.

Second generation of lipos are going to be better then the first.

Limit mah in open mod and the battery thing will work itself out.
This is why I only use the "C" rating between different lipos packs with the same manufacture as a guide.

THE POST BELOW IS FROM DANNY AT SMC


In some of the other Lipo threads I see some racers are confused when it comes to Lipos and there performance.

Here are a few things I have figured out and learnt about Lipos.

The mAh rating of a pack and it's C rate will have an impact on the voltage and IR of the pack. If you take our 4000 and 5000 pack which both have a 28 C rate the 5000 will have better IR and higher average voltage due to the pack being bigger.

The materials used and the way the Lipos are manufactured will also have an impact on the performance of the pack.


When testing a Lipo pack on the T35-GFX the packs that have lower IR and higher average voltage will run better on the track. Some seem to think that testing Lipos at 35 amps on the GFX isn't the correct way of testing Lipos for performance. So far I have tested many packs using the GFX and results on the track prove that testing on a GFX is a good way of testing Lipos.

WOA! leave it to danny at smc

he is now taking his packs and cycling them on a gfx and putting stickers on his packs!

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=205874


All packs will be cycled on Competition Electronics Lipo T35GFX. Pack specs will be posted on the back of the packaging. The reason for doing this is to show the racer exactly what they are paying for. This will also allow us to remove low or faulty packs as with any products there is a chance of some defects.

The mAh rating of a pack and it's C rate will have an impact on the voltage and IR of the pack. If you take our 4000 and 5000 pack which both have a 28 C rate the 5000 will have better IR and higher average voltage due to the pack being bigger..

This is exactly what I have been saying but.... there is nothing to prevent a company from putting at 28C sticker on a 35C pack or putting a 3200mAh sticker on a 3800mAh cell.

With NiMh cells we have all seen cells with 3200mAh shrink from the factory that actually tested out way over 3200mAh (I believe that was the rating at the time that was happening). This was result of RC rules limiting the mAh rating while the battery technology surpassed that threshold.

Why does anyone have the delusion that this will not happen with LiPo packs?

because they are lipo's i guess? the end all to be all savior of the r/c world..and nothing can be worng with them? WOA i almost stepped on a worm!

THE POST BELOW IS FROM DANNY AT SMC


In some of the other Lipo threads I see some racers are confused when it comes to Lipos and there performance.

Here are a few things I have figured out and learnt about Lipos.

The mAh rating of a pack and it's C rate will have an impact on the voltage and IR of the pack. If you take our 4000 and 5000 pack which both have a 28 C rate the 5000 will have better IR and higher average voltage due to the pack being bigger.

The materials used and the way the Lipos are manufactured will also have an impact on the performance of the pack.


Pack configuation also affects the "C" rating.

The answer might be using size and weight, mah.


This is why we run Orion/ Peek / Yea Racing - 3200 mah hardcase packs only.

orin is done with the 3200 mah packs,lol. on to bigger and better lipo's now.

This is exactly what I have been saying but.... there is nothing to prevent a company from putting at 28C sticker on a 35C pack or putting a 3200mAh sticker on a 3800mAh cell.

With NiMh cells we have all seen cells with 3200mAh shrink from the factory that actually tested out way over 3200mAh (I believe that was the rating at the time that was happening). This was result of RC rules limiting the mAh rating while the battery technology surpassed that threshold.

Why does anyone have the delusion that this will not happen with LiPo packs?


None of this matters if we are using one company. It would simply be "hey I just bought a new Brand X and its stout".....which translates to "I think the NEW Brand X's are a little better go buy one" At this point I don't really care if its a 50C pack with a 10C label. I know that I am only being spoon fed by one company and not 50.

I know that I am only being spoon fed by one company and not 50.


:) I love it when guys Get It

So every 3 months that "one" company comes out with a better pack and you have to buy one. No different then what Sanyo, GP and IB has done to RC in the past. Every battery company in the past has done this once they become the "sole source" for RC batteries.

So every 3 months that "one" company comes out with a better pack and you have to buy one.

Nope, you pick one and stay with it for a SET period of time.

When we went to the 3200, that battery had been available over 2 1/2 - 3 years. We knew it was on it's way out - but ORION told us we'd have at least ONE full year before it was replaced. They held true to their word.

Yes, they came out with the 3600, but that was a pack that was made heavier trying to make TOURING CAR guys happy with added weight. It's physically larger and heavier.

The 3400 that is to replace the 3200 looks like it will be the same size as the 3200. (I haven't seen one yet, but I hope to soon) Hopefully, ORION will keep that one in play at least 2-3 years as well. (That will depend on market demand I'm sure)

For my racing budget, every 3 months is more tolerable then that of every 3 days that 100 company's can come up with.

Something I realized is I am a spec racer at heart. Although, I haver never run any Trinity spec kind classes...........lol

Joe, You missed the point. Cells improve and companies do not always put them in new labels so that same "legal label" pack could now be much better then it was a couple of months ago. You know that all of the NiMh manufacturers did it and we should have no reason to doubt that the LiPo manufacturers will not do the same. Or they may just stop producing the cell to try and force everyone to buy new. Sounds like the NiMh battery game that's been played in the past.

Not trying to stir the pot but we all are kidding ourselves that once the LiPo market has stablized a bit that these games won't be played by the manufacturers. They don't have to now since the market is new and there is a lot of sales. Once those sales drop thru the floor since racers only need a 2 packs each year, the manufacturers will have to come up with a way to force racers to buy new packs more often... the market is just too small not to do so.

So every 3 months that "one" company comes out with a better pack and you have to buy one. No different then what Sanyo, GP and IB has done to RC in the past. Every battery company in the past has done this once they become the "sole source" for RC batteries.


i do love when a guy get's it!:woohoo:

When we first started talking about LiPo batteries I thought (foolishly) that they could be a stabilizing factor in our hobby. That’s why a pushed so hard for adapting the Orion 3200 pack for Stock racing. One pack, one brand, should be as stabilized as you can get ….right? WRONG! The very company that we were trying to protect stopped making the pack. And in spite of what some are saying, they did it quite a bit sooner than they told us. (at least sooner than they told ME)

SOOOO, the bottom line is; Hanks right, there will ALWAYS be a battery game and there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about it………….except race “nitro” LOL sorry that was just too easy.

You also have to look at the fact that the only RC racers that care about or want a 3200mAh pack is oval racers. As a guy who races off-road, if I was buying a pack, I would want the largest available, the 5000mAh. This means that the only demand for 3200mAh packs is from maybe 1000 oval racers buying 2000 packs per year. No company in their right mind would put forth any money or effort to address the 3200mAh market when there are 10's of thousands of higher mAh packs to be sold to other RC racers and backyard bashers.

It isn't the battery manufacturers fault that they want to make some money, it is the oval racers problem to stay up with the times. Perdiction time... in 6 months you won't be able to buy a 3200mAh pack. <----- figure that'll get this discussion fired up ;)

Yeah, it makes me chuckle when ever a "another new battery!" thread pops up. Oval racers will one day realize that they do not drive the battery market, but more or less become casualties of it.:rolleyes:You also have to look at the fact that the only RC racers that care about or want a 3200mAh pack is oval racers. As a guy who races off-road, if I was buying a pack, I would want the largest available, the 5000mAh. This means that the only demand for 3200mAh packs is from maybe 1000 oval racers buying 2000 packs per year. No company in their right mind would put forth any money or effort to address the 3200mAh market when there are 10's of thousands of higher mAh packs to be sold to other RC racers and backyard bashers.

It isn't the battery manufacturers fault that they want to make some money, it is the oval racers problem to stay up with the times. Perdiction time... in 6 months you won't be able to buy a 3200mAh pack. <----- figure that'll get this discussion fired up ;)

Fact#1: Batteries, no matter what kind will be available for 1 year. Fact#2: Lipo batteries are the only batteries to date that can even come close to lasting that long. Solution#1: Pick one battery from one manufacturer for one year and stick to it. No matter what, that is the cheapest way to race. If there is only one supplier of one battery it will help to eliminate the need for the battery company to sponsor drivers and help to keep costs down. Part of the selection process by ROAR should be lowest fixed price for the year which will also help to drive down prices. I really don't care who that one supplier of batteries is so let's just pick one and get back to the track!

do you want roar to make the lipo's legal or do you want wal-mart to tell us what lipo's are legal? cause it sounds like your telling roar in order to decide what is legal it must first be cheap? LOL

i like the way roar is legalizing lipo's now...a new one comes out..the maunafacturer submits the pack...they say it's legal and we all run out and buy it...


what is wrong with that? ahhaahahhhahhaahhah

at least i know what nimh cell i need to buy..i only have 3 to choose from..and i know in 3 months i'll need more.....whats wrong with that? ahahhaahhahahaahahahahahah


face it the wheels on the bus do go round and round......

noone is going to build a lipo pack for our greedy azz's for one year....


put a mah cap and c rating cap on it and be done with it for a years time....we did it with nimh cells after 20 years time...let's catch lipo in the early stages.


like i said at least the smc packs have gfx #'s on them...if there was a running change in the cell we would see it on the stickers.......plus danny has supported oval for years now.

I hate being misquoted! I said " Part of the selection process by ROAR should be lowest fixed price for the year which will also help to drive down prices." I did not say that a low price was a prerequisite, only a consideration.

Fact#1: Batteries, no matter what kind will be available for 1 year. Fact#2: Lipo batteries are the only batteries to date that can even come close to lasting that long. Solution#1: Pick one battery from one manufacturer for one year and stick to it. No matter what, that is the cheapest way to race.

Not that I like to argue but the single supplier solution can only aggravate the situation.... ask the "stick pack spec battery" racers that buy a half dozen packs to find that one good one. We could also run into the situation where that single supplier decides it's not economical to make that pack any more so they either discontinue it or just slap the new cells with old stickers.

The only way you might be able to avoid most of this is to pick the highest mAH/C battery currently available at the time and lock that in for the year. It is much less likely that battery will become obsolete during the next 12 months. Trying to spec an old outdated 3200mAh battery for the next 12 months is only asking for failure.

If there is only one supplier of one battery it will help to eliminate the need for the battery company to sponsor drivers and help to keep costs down.

That is actually counter productive. The vast majority of sponsored drivers are 50%ers. The battery company makes more money off those 50%ers then they do from someone buying that same pack thru their local hobby shop.

The only way you might be able to avoid most of this is to pick the highest mAH/C battery currently available at the time and lock that in for the year. It is much less likely that battery will become obsolete during the next 12 months. Trying to spec an old outdated 3200mAh battery for the next 12 months is only asking for failure. I agree with that statement, go big and stick with it.

The thing with the LIPO market has been that they are NOT and have NOT been "The Sanctioned Race Packs"

So if they were making an improvement - they PROMOTED it with glee in hopes to sell NEW STUFF. Thankfully, they also kept selling the OLDER product (As did a lot of NiMh and NiCad mfgs.) but in their case...the MATCHERS wouldn't carry them...because they wanted to push the NEW product...cause that was worth MORE SALES.

SALES drives COMPANIES - but it doesn't HAVE to drive RACING. But to many force RACING that direction...and I really don't care if there is a group of racers who's only reason for wanting STUFF is so STUFF can be sold...

But, there is a MARKET for those guys who DON'T want to CHASE the Magic Dragon.

I agree with that statement, go big and stick with it.


ok than it's settled.....

cliff
hank
joe
mik boylan
myself

have made a ruling...

in 2009 we will decide on a mah rating and a C rating for one years time...we can than all buy any lipo we desire as long as it fits into our lipo pack rules for 2009.......

brushless motor
solid lipo rules

we are done discussion!

do you guys see what calm heads and cool minds can do? we just moved the pyramids in only a weeks time!

we can meet back here in say 3 months time and hammer out our lipo cap for 2009.....

thanks a ton guys

bill

Hmmm...

Bill, You think you are going to get off that easy LOL! I doubt these guys are done "discussing" this!!!! Maybe we ought to make the HobbyTalk Oval Racing rules and let everyone adopt them ;)

Might as well just send my $35 a year to Hank instead of ROAR.