I am just wondering if there are any oval tracks that are running any other manufactures brushless motors in 21.5. I know that most are only running Novak. If so how are they comparing in lap times and inductance readings?

I am just wondering if there are any oval tracks that are running any other manufactures brushless motors in 21.5. I know that most are only running Novak. If so how are they comparing in lap times and inductance readings?

In On-road we are running any ROAR Legal BL motor and are not having any problem.s At the Nats they pre-tech the BL or Brushed motors before the event. I have tested a lot of different manufactures motors and have not found any of them to be heads and shoulders above the rest other than consistency. The Novaks are the worst as they all require a different gear and run a lot different. LRPs and Hackers are all very consistent. Not sure about Losi's but they are made the same place Hackers are.

I do know that the inductance readings are different between manufactures too. The hackers are a LOT lower than other brands but dont run any different.

EA

Good post EA. From what you are saying I am sure I want to stick to one motor company

Good post EA. From what you are saying I am sure I want to stick to one motor company

Is this the part that convinced you? (EA wrote: "The Novaks are the worst as they all require a different gear and run a lot different")

No this part, EA wrote "I do know that the inductance readings are different between manufactures too. The hackers are a LOT lower than other brands but dont run any different." It's a tech nightmare in the making to me. Besides most of this talk about Novak is just propaganda to support opening up the motors in oval racing. I guess I am just lucky, all of my Novak stuff is great.

No this part, EA wrote "I do know that the inductance readings are different between manufactures too. The hackers are a LOT lower than other brands but dont run any different." It's a tech nightmare in the making to me. Besides most of this talk about Novak is just propaganda to support opening up the motors in oval racing. I guess I am just lucky, all of my Novak stuff is great.



You are so wrong ! Novak has sent out a ton of 21.5 motors at 135uH and a bunch of 147uH is that the kind of difference you want to stay away from? When you start checking at your track you will be suprised!

I felt the same way as you until I received a new motor and opened it at the very moment the track directer handed it to me and it was 136.5 which was 10uH lower than most motors at the track and we ended up having 2 that day and the other was 135.5. I know of a few more at the Regional race that had motors that low but still Novak comes out with a 140uH number for a low limit.

I thought the world of Novak until seeing this problem and there is no quick fix. If I send it back will someone else get this same motor as a reman.? If I send it back will Roar come out a week later and say well 135 is the new low limit? Either way I'm out atleast the shipping to send a brand new motor back in just so they can send me a slower one.

It all sucks and I wish someone could get the inductance readings right just once!

Brian you are right on. I don't know if I would go as far as saying that Echeconnee dosn't have a clue, but you are right. I think brushless blew up faster than any one realized it would, and Novak stepped up. It may have come at a cost of cutting corners, but I think they are getting things right. I think the ROAR oval committee will look at the inductance readings and make everyone adhear (sp?) to them. What EA said was for road course where you dont really see a big difference in motor. Oval you do see it. Though it isn't the only thing that makes you go fast, if a newbie sees you killing everyone down the stretch they will not want to race. Just my 2 cents!

Joel White

Brian you are right on. I don't know if I would go as far as saying that Echeconnee dosn't have a clue, but you are right. I think brushless blew up faster than any one realized it would, and Novak stepped up. It may have come at a cost of cutting corners, but I think they are getting things right. I think the ROAR oval committee will look at the inductance readings and make everyone adhear (sp?) to them. What EA said was for road course where you dont really see a big difference in motor. Oval you do see it. Though it isn't the only thing that makes you go fast, if a newbie sees you killing everyone down the stretch they will not want to race. Just my 2 cents!

Joel White


Cliff isn't clueless and I didn't mean that, I meant that he is unaware how far off one Novak motor was from another Novak motor and I was also until just recently.

I might be clueless :rolleyes: I am sure there are problems but how many stock motors did you buy that sucked, that you couldn't return? At least you can return the motor in exchange for a motor that meters out right. It's not perfect but it's something. I wonder why they don't meter them before they leave the factory?

Yeah I dont know why they dont meter them. I would think metering the can, and the rotor would be part of quality control.

I might be clueless :rolleyes: I am sure there are problems but how many stock motors did you buy that sucked, that you couldn't return? At least you can return the motor in exchange for a motor that meters out right. It's not perfect but it's something. I wonder why they don't meter them before they leave the factory?

Unless he promises to send a 140.000uH I think I will hold on to it for now!:thumbsup: I have a slow motor and I don't need another!

I see your point

Yeah I dont know why they dont meter them. I would think metering the can, and the rotor would be part of quality control.


ahhhhhhh now you hit the nail on the head!

i have been begging for this procedure for two years now from novak!

i think novak and the airlines are one in the same?

one books 20 people more on a flight than the plane holds..hoping for no shows and just blatantly lieing to passengers and coming up with excuses!

the other turns out thousands of "hand wound" brushless motors without checking the first one before it goes into packaging! hoping they are all the same...

when a dud is found they say oops my bad and send you out another motor.


when all they have to do is control what they can control......

if a plane holds 200 people book 200 guests

before the motors leave novak meter the can and rotor.......

nahhhhhh way to simple!:freak:

i was one racer who bought a brand new 10.5 and had it turn out to be a 7.5 or less!

the answer seems so easy yet they shrug there shoulders and continue on down the same beaten path?

novak is # 1 with customer service because they have alot of practice!LOL

i have never bought a handwound brushed motor and had it be anything but a work of art! hmmmmmmmmm

ahhhhhhh now you hit the nail on the head!

i have been begging for this procedure for two years now from novak!

i think novak and the airlines are one in the same?

one books 20 people more on a flight than the plane holds..hoping for no shows and just blatantly lieing to passengers and coming up with excuses!

the other turns out thousands of "hand wound" brushless motors without checking the first one before it goes into packaging! hoping they are all the same...

when a dud is found they say oops my bad and send you out another motor.


when all they have to do is control what they can control......

if a plane holds 200 people book 200 guests

before the motors leave novak meter the can and rotor.......

nahhhhhh way to simple!:freak:

i was one racer who bought a brand new 10.5 and had it turn out to be a 7.5 or less!

the answer seems so easy yet they shrug there shoulders and continue on down the same beaten path?

novak is # 1 with customer service because they have alot of practice!LOL

i have never bought a handwound brushed motor and had it be anything but a work of art! hmmmmmmmmm


ALL I CAN SAY KATFISH IS YOU SAVED ME A LOT OF TYPING, LOL !!

QUALITY CONTROL ? BEFORE IT LEAVES NOVAK ?

WHY MAN THAT IS AS CRAZY AS TEST DRIVING A CAR BEFORE YOU BUY IT !!!

JUST PAY THE MAN AND HAVE IT SHIPPED TO YOUR FRONT DOOR. I AM SURE EVERYTHING IS ALRIGHT WITH IT ! IF YOU GET CAUGHT SPEEDING JUST SAY THE MFG. MUST HAVE PUT A BIGGER MOTOR IN YOURS BY MISTAKE ! I AM SURE THE COP WILL LET YOU STROLL OFF WITHOUT AS MUCH AS A WARNING !!

JUST TO CLARIFY, I AGREE WITH KATFISH :wave:

Handwound does not mean what it used to.

With brushed motors, it ment an "expert" who took diligence in making sure the wraps were superior to what a machine could do.

Now it just means, they are pretty much a workshop operation where output numbers are the game not quality. Most likely the cost of tooling a machine to wind is high so not much investment has been made. Mass production of Brushless is still new for our hobby.

I am sure companies like Feigao have already invested into tooling machines for brushless motor since they are "core" source for the other brands.

I am sure companies like Feigao have already invested into tooling machines for brushless motor since they are "core" source for the other brands

And hopefully those MACHINES aren't 9 yr. olds in a 3rd world country...

one books 20 people more on a flight than the plane holds..hoping for no shows and just blatantly lieing to passengers and coming up with excuses!


Problem is - this is done because inconsiderate people make a reservation and don't show up - so in an effort to fill MORE empty seats..tickets are oversold. They don't HOPE for no shows...but they do BANK ON IT due to trend data.

My dentist's office does the same practice. He says roughly 30% of his appointments don't show up daily...so they OVER BOOK about 120%

As most know, I am supportive of a SINGLE MFG. deal for motors and batteries in oval racing...at least for the lower classes. However, we all know 'competition' in the market place is what causes production quality to improve.

We saw it with BRUSHED MOTORS - I remember a TON of crappy 19t gen1 Chameleon motors - and plenty of brushed STOCK motors that weren't worth the time it took to THROW THEM as far as you could.

joe i don't hate novak ..i just "wish" they would be a "little" bit better job at quality control.....i understand every rotor and motor will be a "little" different....

the "alot" different is killing me!

...I'm not UP on a lot of the stuff and issues you guys seem to have, and I'm still looking for performance data on how much performance difference there is in 7-8% inductance difference, or 7-8% difference in the gauss reading of a magnet.

If those to things prove to each be a 3-5% difference in performance - we really have a problem. But if both combined provide less than a 2% PERFORMANCE difference, than I think guys are trying to split atoms.

If a motor produces 2-3% MORE Power - what will that equate to in LAP TIME difference? (I don't know - that's why I ask)

(180 watt motor with a 3% power increase becomes a 185 watt motor...right?)

As far as the 'quality control' issue - I haven't taken a tour of NOVAK to see these things being wound - but I remember watching guys wind Brushed/Mod arms a time or two - and never saw any of them get tested when wound.

If the person winding the windings is sitting there winding 17.5's we'll say, and they have their spool of wire and they crank out 20+ cans an hour (I have no idea the actual number) it's a safe bet they have the size wire they are using....they make wraps, counting each one in their head...and move to the next set.

looking at the motors, they look similar to commercial motors I've seen, a lot of the OLD brushed arms I have look similar. The newer brushed arms I have, the wire is much neater and a much cleaner wrap. It's obvious that these were probably done by smaller companies at a slower pace. I'm wondering if that's the issue here. You've got an order for 10,000 pieces of various winds, your crew is knocking them out as humanly fast as they can to fill the orders...

...I'm not UP on a lot of the stuff and issues you guys seem to have, and I'm still looking for performance data on how much performance difference there is in 7-8% inductance difference, or 7-8% difference in the gauss reading of a magnet.

If those to things prove to each be a 3-5% difference in performance - we really have a problem. But if both combined provide less than a 2% PERFORMANCE difference, than I think guys are trying to split atoms.

If a motor produces 2-3% MORE Power - what will that equate to in LAP TIME difference? (I don't know - that's why I ask)

(180 watt motor with a 3% power increase becomes a 185 watt motor...right?)

As far as the 'quality control' issue - I haven't taken a tour of NOVAK to see these things being wound - but I remember watching guys wind Brushed/Mod arms a time or two - and never saw any of them get tested when wound.

If the person winding the windings is sitting there winding 17.5's we'll say, and they have their spool of wire and they crank out 20+ cans an hour (I have no idea the actual number) it's a safe bet they have the size wire they are using....they make wraps, counting each one in their head...and move to the next set.

looking at the motors, they look similar to commercial motors I've seen, a lot of the OLD brushed arms I have look similar. The newer brushed arms I have, the wire is much neater and a much cleaner wrap. It's obvious that these were probably done by smaller companies at a slower pace. I'm wondering if that's the issue here. You've got an order for 10,000 pieces of various winds, your crew is knocking them out as humanly fast as they can to fill the orders...

Here's some hypotheticals based on some simplified math...I'll use the recent ROAR Region 3 race results to compare since they ran both a 17.5 and 21.5 Lipo class.....

17.5/Lipo TQ was 43 4:05
21.5/Lipo TQ was 39 4:03...so about 4 laps slower

17.5 inductance is about 50 points lower than 21.5 inductance(on Novaks)

if 50points inductance = 4 laps.....6.25points inductance varience = 1/2 lap

Easley's track runs about 6.0-6.3 fast laps in those 2 classes, so 6+ points inductance varience could equal about 3+seconds on a track that size.

Not sure how the math compares to actual track results(I know that's what you're looking for LOL), but at least it gives some kind of guess I think. Of course, the difference is probably smaller than that, because this takes no consideration for the fact that 17.5/Lipo ran 5000mah batts, where 21.5/Lipo was limited to 3200 and SPEC tires.....

The relationship isn't direct like that.

Hey Kevin, the difference isn't 6 points it is like 10-15uH in some cases.

I haven't seen this problem with 13.5 motors but it is a problem without a doubt with the 21.5 motors.

Guys when I talk to charlie at Novak Monday about this problem He told me that they are checking all the new motors that are being produced now as a quality control measure.
thanks Lee Ricker

Guys when I talk to charlie at Novak Monday about this problem He told me that they are checking all the new motors that are being produced now as a quality control measure.
thanks Lee Ricker


WELL I PERSONALLY THINK THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN HAPPENING FROM THE START. NOT JUST NOVAK BUT WITH ANY BRUSHLESS MFG. THAT EXPECTS TO HAVE "EQUAL" RACING.

I REMEMBER THE 13.5 HAVING REALLY BORDERLINE NUMBERS BUT NOTHING THIS SKEWED !

MARCEL

I'm not an expert but with the higher turn motors the bigger variance theres going to be in inductance since theres that much more wire wrapped on it. Which is why the 10.5's and 13.5s aren't split nearly that much. Another reason it would be nice to have a lower voltage lipo so we didnt have to run the high turn motors. The 21.5/lipo is borderline too fast for newer/less experienced guys as it is and if they do make; say a 25.5 the variance would be even bigger.

The variation precent really hasn't changed. I havent seen every motors reading posted but using what I have seen and Novaks list I can make some accurate assumptions. If 99% of the motors fall within a 5% variation, then there is a total 10% spread. I have to leave a 1% margin for outliers for some reason were out of tolerance(missing winding, bad enamal on wire, mislabeld, new employee at the helm..ect ect.)


13.5 Motor Average reading 53uH, 5% high is 55.65, 5% low is 50.35, a spread of 5.3points. 5% variation is within the spread that Novak listed +/- 3uh.

21.5 Motor Average reading 140. Assume the same posible 5% variance. 5% low is 133uH, 5% hi is 147uH. The spread is 16uH, and 2.5points +/- greater than what novak has listed as leagal as a 4.5uH +/-

Unless novak's quality control is higher for 21.5 motors, I would have to assume that 99% of the motors will fall under a 5% spread. Would 133 be leagal? Not at some tracks. but it is what it is. Based on the deviations gathered from previous motor lines that a 5% tolerance is expected.

I don't think NOVAK ever claimed to build a motor for even performance. They were building mainly motors aimed at MOD SPEEDS. It was US racers who asked for limits, and we are still involved in a LEARNING CURVE.

Some guys PUSH too hard - it's no wonder some companies and/or people don't want to deal with the OVAL market. Would YOU?

When we were working on getting these motors built, we didn't know if there would be a big enough market to even make it WORTH building this motor (The 21.5)

Most companies wouldn't TOUCH the idea. They were only interested in SPEED.

The NEGATIVE B.S. in this hobby has to STOP

Can I get an AMEN BROTHER!

i look at it this way, inductace is a factor of the cross sectional area, material and the number of turns, L=k * n^2, so a 21.5 with 140uH gives a k factor of 0.303u, which when using this k vaule to back calculate the inductance of a 13.5 gives 55uH, which lines up with the numbers trailranger gave. so a 21.5 with 135uH should run like a 21.11T motor and a 145uH like a 21.88T. now if you use kevin kobacks numbers for 4T difference gives 4 lap difference, then a 21.11 compared to a 21.88 should be about 3/4of a lap faster or 4.8 seconds.

I find it hard to believe that novak would not have any quality control on stuff comming out of the factory, but i do believe that inductance % pass fail check was not one of them. Most companies start with QC procedures for functionality, then as more products go out the door, and more products come back for service and repair, the QC procedures are modified to reduce the number of returns. Do not bee fooled though, there is a $ tradeoff between letting a non conformant part out the door and let it come back for repair compared to the $ to fix that part to be conformant before it leaves the factory.

I Knew There Was A Market For The 21.5 . In Fact, I Think There Is A Market For One More Step Up From That. A 24.5 Or Something In That Range. There Are Guys At My Local Track That Would Love To Go Lipo But The Speed Of 21.5 Is Just Too Overwhelming. They Are Looking For Something That Has The Upfront Speed Of A 17.5 With Nimh Batteries. But That Decision If Left Up To Those People That Can Make It Happen.

I Don't Think A Racer Getting D.q.'ed In A Huge Race Because Of A Couple Points Is Spouting Negativity In Oval Racing, I Think That's A Concern. It Could Have Been Anyone. (wasn't Me By The Way) But I Do Have A Low Inductance Motor. And It's No Fun Being Told You Can Run And It Not Count Until You Buy Another Motor Or Send The Motor Back To Novak And Let Them Replace It. When You Know Your Motor Is Factory Made.

I Would Think Novak Would've Taken Their Top Winder At The Factory, Let He/she Build The Tightest Wound 21.5 They Could, And Release Spec's From That Number Up. That Way If It Teched Below That You Know Someone Has Being Playing With The Windings. Even If It's Not Apparent By Looking At The Solder Marks. My Motor Was One Of The First Ones Released, So I Assume More Time May Have Been Taken To Wind It. But A Friend Who Just Received A Reman. Back From Novak Teched The Same Way. So That Throws That Idea Right Out The Window.

And As Far As Other Motor Mfg.'s Not Wanting To Fool With Oval Racers, Why Not ? If No One Is Building Motors For Any Certain Equality In Racing Then Why Would They Need To Build Motors For Oval Special ? I See Lrp And Speed Passion Both Have 17.5's And Lrp Has A 21.5 Out Now. And I Have Seen Other's Mentioned. As Someone That Deals With Supply And Demand In My Job, I Would Think Motor Mfg.'s Would Have No Problem Building A Particular Motor If They Thought They Could Sell It In A Certain Market. But From What I Have Been Researching Everyone but Novak Has Been Shut Out Of Oval Racing. At Least That's What I Have Seen, I Could Be Wrong. Feels Like The Whole Microsoft (monopoly) Thing To Me. If It's Truly For The Racer Why Aren't We Given The Option Of Testing With Other Motors ?

I Know I Come Off As An A**hole On Here But You Have To Understand, I Love R/c As Much As The Rest Of You. If I Didn't Care About It, I Wouldn't Take This Much Time To Post My Findings And Feelings About It. The Last Thing I Want To See Is The Hobby Dead And Local Tracks Dropping Off The Map.

But Let's Say For Instance You Are New And Enter The Hobby, You Buy $1,000 To $2,000 Worth Of Oval Stuff, Including A Novak 21.5. And Before You Enter Your First Race With It The Track Operator/offical Techs It And Tells You Its "illegal" , How Would You Feel ? Or You Are Running 2 Classes And Have A Novak 17.5 That Techs The Same. And You Have Done Nothing But Spend Your Hard Earned Money On Something That Is Supposed To Be Fun. Getting Bounced Out A Race Isn't Too Fun For Me, Lol ! Very Disappointing At Best.

I Have Always Been For Supporting My Local Track And The Oval Community As A Whole. I Tell People About What I Do With My Saturdays All The Time. Just Very Disheartening To Get Thrown Out For Trying To Follow The Rules.

Marcel

i look at it this way, inductace is a factor of the cross sectional area, material and the number of turns
But it isn't. It is primarily a factor of the number of turns and to some extent the tightness of the wind, with very little to do with the cross sectional area of the wire. The tools used to measure inductance don't put enough current into the windings for resistance (cross sectional area) to be a significant factor.

But it isn't. It is primarily a factor of the number of turns and to some extent the tightness of the wind, with very little to do with the cross sectional area of the wire. The tools used to measure inductance don't put enough current into the windings for resistance (cross sectional area) to be a significant factor.

He meant the cross sectional area of the coil, not the area of the individual wires, and he probably meant the core material not the wire material. You are correct though the material and shape of the individual wires doesn't directly effect inductance.

sorry, i ment cross section of the steel and material being the steel. ie, L= (mu * Ae / l) * n^2, where mu is determined by the material, Ae/l is determined by the geometry, again material and geometry relating to the steel.

Marcel

I guess My question to you would be - DID YOU get thrown out of a LOCAL RACE?

If so - w/o an ON TRACK PERFORMANCE Issue - Why? If that's the way your track is conducting business for LOCAL EVENTS - I'm glad to NOT be racing there.

LOCAL RACING should be about trying to make a place for EVERYONE who shows up wanting to race. Providing a friendly, FUN atmosphere...with FRIENDS racing FRIENDS - then grabbing a pizza and beer, or a hot dog and coke, or what ever...and BS'ing about race day on the way home.

I Don't Think A Racer Getting D.q.'ed In A Huge Race Because Of A Couple Points Is Spouting Negativity In Oval Racing,


The negativity I see is you guys putting sooo much (false) importance on rotors and cans. You're wasting you're time. (Don't argue with me-I'm right, lol) The problem is a lot of racers buy in to that BS. You guys make it appear everyone needs 10 motors, this is scaring racers away and keeping old school racers from returning.

Now, I understand the hobby part of R/C...checking rotors, cans, dynoing etc. is a fun part of the hobby, you guys just make it sound like it is a necessity.


I Would Think Novak Would've Taken Their Top Winder At The Factory, Let He/she Build The Tightest Wound 21.5 They Could, And Release Spec's From That Number Up. That Way If It Teched Below That You Know Someone Has Being Playing With The Windings.
Yeah I dont know why they dont meter them. I would think metering the can, and the rotor would be part of quality control.

the answer seems so easy



Man, you guys got this all figured out. Sometimes things aren't as easy as they appear though.

The solution seems obvious to me, you, katfish, jflack, jdub and a few others need to open up your own brushless motor factory....it's really easy, I'm sure you guys would know.

But From What I Have Been Researching Everyone but Novak Has Been Shut Out Of Oval Racing. At Least That's What I Have Seen, I Could Be Wrong. Feels Like The Whole Microsoft (monopoly) Thing To Me. If It's Truly For The Racer Why Aren't We Given The Option Of Testing With Other Motors ?


Roar allows almost anything. http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/brushlessmotors.php

I've heard the BRL-Novak conspiracy theory a couple times. I, for one believe Sonny when he says: But always keep in mind what I choose to do is for the good of the racers that support the BRL.

Now, if you guys have a concern with Novak's quality control, call them. They might not have an answer for you right now but I'm sure they will do what they can to come up with a solution.

If you aren't satisfied with their answer, buy a different brand and race Roar. Isn't it that simple.

Tommy could not be more right here!

So much of what is posted on this thread is just way off.

The correlations of inductance to motor performance are flat out wrong. I'm not saying in my opinion they are wrong or that I think they are wrong. They just are wrong based on how motors actually work. I hate the idea that people are believing the stuff they are reading on HT lately and buying into it. This is the stuff that screws up the hobby.

I said it on here months ago that rules based on inductance are a bad idea. Now we're seeing why. Certainly part of the blame here goes to Novak for promoting it.

Base your rules on what you can see. The motor must be 21.5 turns of guage X wire. If a track chooses to validate that based on inductance then go for it, but don't use inductance to define the rule.

Right now you guys are legislating how well or how poorly a motor is wound based on what you're doing with the rules. That is why you're digging a hole. Inductance is fine for giving you a clue how many turns are on a motor when it is a low turn motor. The higher the number of turn the cloudier this gets. Will a "poorly" wound 20.5 have inductance that starts to overlap with a "very well" wound 21.5? Given the amount of variation in the meters and the influence of ambient conditions on the readings things start getting a lot less black and white.

What you need here is "keep it simple stupid". You simply state what motors are legal and that they may not be modified.

Then if you have an issue with someone you do a visual inspection and if you like check inductance.

If the inductance is a point or two low but the motor looks tamper free it is fine.

If the inductance is right where it should be, but the motor was unsoldered it illegal.

If the motor appears tamper free but the inductance is significantly off you tear it down.

I'm not understanding why this is so hard to figure out. You do not use a number off an inductance meter as the end all and be all of legality.

If you do what I said above you will have it covered in 99.99% of cases. If that is not good enough then start asking Novak and ROAR for a more tamper resistant motor. In my opinion that would be a waste of money, but if you guys want to pay more for motors to have it then fine, at least it makes more sense then busting ROAR and Novak's chops over the inductance.

...as I just left the gas station near my house ... just a few minutes ago, I was thinking about this thread and one of the LIPO threads and how some people seem to be going out of their way to HURT oval racing... Then I relooked at my receipt from the GAS STATION

Gas Price near my house has gone from $4.139 LAST Tuesday to $4.439 this morning, that's .30c a gallon in a WEEK and over .44c a gallon in the last 2 weeks.

YOU GUYS WANT SOMETHING TO WORRY and CRY ABOUT - Cry about what's coming YOUR DIRECTION!

I made a local prediction that we'd be paying $4.50 by the first week of SUMMER Vacation (which starts here on FRIDAY), and it looks like I might come up LOW. I also predicted we'd be paying $5.00 by MID SUMMER, and so far they are right on track.

Guys are worrying about the inductance of a $80.00 motor, like it's the end of the world...and/or like it's an investment like buying a HOUSE. Right now, that $80.00 won't fill up MOST Gas tanks in California. (Thankfully, my little Geo gets 47 MPG, and only holds 10 gallons - it only cost me just under $18.00 for those 4 gallons it took me to top off.

at least it makes more sense then busting ROAR and Novak's chops over the inductance.

I am with you unitil here cause Novak is the one who put out a bogus spec and the tracks were just trying to tech using the info they were given. (I know you said Novak was some to blame)I have seen you say many times that there is no excuse for not teching on a regular basis and I agree.

Roar has done nothing as far as rules for oval yet, but I hope they are watching and learning.

I think most wanted an inductance no lower than number as go no go gauge and I think that is good but where I agree with you that the ones given here are to close to be used as that number.

If the number was 130uH you would know something was not right and then could do a better visual inspection to make a decision. Novak's number of 140 is not a good number to say good or bad because obviously they have made several motors in the 135 - 136 range that are still 21.5 motors that have never been tampered with and the no tampering is the most important thing.

I agree Brian.

Novak was wrong with the number and beyond that I think they are wrong to promote inductance as a go no go tech method, especially with the high turn motors. I think the problem is that on the high turn motors you have to set the bottom limit really tight otherwise you could run into a situation where a 20.5 might pass. We all know if that happened they'd be getting roasted for that as well. If I were them I would just back away from being involved in tech all together.

I think people get comfort from seeing hard numbers, but it just doesn't work out to be that easy. The more people try to simplify it the more complicated it gets.

A decent set of eyes and common sense is always going to be the best tech method.

Exactly What I Have Been Saying All Along. Don't Put Something Out That Isn't True Because Someone Somewhere Will Make It Into Gospel And Then We All Suffer.

And I Don't Think Some Of You Have Grasped What I Have Been Trying To Say.

Some Of You Think That If I Don't Like Novak, Just Run A Different Motor.

Tommygun, Please Check The Flyer I Am Talking About Below.

Take A Look At The Roar Paved Nats 2008 Flyer. Anyone See Anything Other Than Novak Listed For Motors ? Now Maybe There Was A Vote Taken That I Didn't Know About, It Could Happen, But I Don't Remember Voting For Just Novak For All My Oval Fun. How Do I Run Another Motor When There Is Only 1 Brand Allowed.

This Is My Point. I Am On Here B!tching About Novak Because I Can't Move Out Of What I Run Now. If It Were As Simple As Switching Brands I Would Have Done It. Matter Of Fact, I Have Moved On At My Local Track, But My Local Track Tries To Follow What Roar And The O.c. Go By So I Am In The Same Pickle. Fortunately My T.o. Said Run What You Want As Long As Everyone Is In Agreement. But If I Decide To Compete At A Higher Level I Am "forced" To Run A Certain Brand.

Problem Is When Novak Releases Numbers And Roar Adopts Them It Doesn't Matter What Role Inductance Plays In Winning Or Losing On The Track. Rules, However Wrong, Are Rules. And You Argue With An Offical, You Get Tossed.

Swtour, I Wasn't Tossed From The Track But Whatever I Ran With The Low Inductance Motor Didn't Count And Wouldn't Count Until I Bought A New Motor.

Those That Have Been Deemed "illegal" Because Of These Silly Numbers Know What I Am Talking About. And There At Least 3 Cases I Have Seen With My Own 2 Eyes.

Those That Haven't Got A Low Reading Motor And Haven't Been Told To "not Run" That Motor, You Have Nothing To Argue With Because It Hasn't Happened To You....yet !!!

And You Won't See Me Slam Roar Because Roar Is Open For Every Motor Mfg. To Be Allowed. I Know That For Fact.

Marcel

...as I just left the gas station near my house ... just a few minutes ago, I was thinking about this thread and one of the LIPO threads and how some people seem to be going out of their way to HURT oval racing... Then I relooked at my receipt from the GAS STATION

Gas Price near my house has gone from $4.139 LAST Tuesday to $4.439 this morning, that's .30c a gallon in a WEEK and over .44c a gallon in the last 2 weeks.

YOU GUYS WANT SOMETHING TO WORRY and CRY ABOUT - Cry about what's coming YOUR DIRECTION!

I made a local prediction that we'd be paying $4.50 by the first week of SUMMER Vacation (which starts here on FRIDAY), and it looks like I might come up LOW. I also predicted we'd be paying $5.00 by MID SUMMER, and so far they are right on track.

Guys are worrying about the inductance of a $80.00 motor, like it's the end of the world...and/or like it's an investment like buying a HOUSE. Right now, that $80.00 won't fill up MOST Gas tanks in California. (Thankfully, my little Geo gets 47 MPG, and only holds 10 gallons - it only cost me just under $18.00 for those 4 gallons it took me to top off.

YOU DON'T EVEN WANT TO GET ME STARTED ABOUT GAS, LOL !

BUT UNFORTUNATELY ALL OF US TYPING TO THE PRESIDENT IN UNISON WON'T CHANGE THE NUMBERS AT THE PUMP. IN FACT, I HEARD EARLIER TODAY THAT WEATHER PREDICTERS , OR METEROLOGISTS IF YOU PREFER, PREDICT 9 HURRICANES THIS YEAR. AND THE PROPAGANDA SPOUTING NEWS MEDIA SAID IF JUST 1 HURRICANE HITS 1 OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING WELL, GAS WILL SHOOT UP A $1. IT'S LIKE THE FRIGGING NEWS MEDIA GETS A THRILL FROM RELEASING THIS CRAP. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND THEN GO WATCH THE NUMBERS AT THE PUMP CLIMB.

AND YOU ARE RIGHT SWTOUR, WHATEVER IS OUT YOUR WAY WILL BE HERE SOON ENOUGH. BUT LIKE DEATH AND TAXES, WELL DEATH ANYWAY, SINCE PEOPLE STOP FEARING TAXES, IT WILL HAPPEN WHETHER WE CRY ABOUT IT OR NOT.

Exactly What I Have Been Saying All Along. Don't Put Something Out That Isn't True Because Someone Somewhere Will Make It Into Gospel And Then We All Suffer.

And I Don't Think Some Of You Have Grasped What I Have Been Trying To Say.

Some Of You Think That If I Don't Like Novak, Just Run A Different Motor.

Tommygun, Please Check The Flyer I Am Talking About Below.

Take A Look At The Roar Paved Nats 2008 Flyer. Anyone See Anything Other Than Novak Listed For Motors ? Now Maybe There Was A Vote Taken That I Didn't Know About, It Could Happen, But I Don't Remember Voting For Just Novak For All My Oval Fun. How Do I Run Another Motor When There Is Only 1 Brand Allowed.

This Is My Point. I Am On Here B!tching About Novak Because I Can't Move Out Of What I Run Now. If It Were As Simple As Switching Brands I Would Have Done It. Matter Of Fact, I Have Moved On At My Local Track, But My Local Track Tries To Follow What Roar And The O.c. Go By So I Am In The Same Pickle. Fortunately My T.o. Said Run What You Want As Long As Everyone Is In Agreement. But If I Decide To Compete At A Higher Level I Am "forced" To Run A Certain Brand.

Problem Is When Novak Releases Numbers And Roar Adopts Them It Doesn't Matter What Role Inductance Plays In Winning Or Losing On The Track. Rules, However Wrong, Are Rules. And You Argue With An Offical, You Get Tossed.

Swtour, I Wasn't Tossed From The Track But Whatever I Ran With The Low Inductance Motor Didn't Count And Wouldn't Count Until I Bought A New Motor.

Those That Have Been Deemed "illegal" Because Of These Silly Numbers Know What I Am Talking About. And There At Least 3 Cases I Have Seen With My Own 2 Eyes.

Those That Haven't Got A Low Reading Motor And Haven't Been Told To "not Run" That Motor, You Have Nothing To Argue With Because It Hasn't Happened To You....yet !!!

And You Won't See Me Slam Roar Because Roar Is Open For Every Motor Mfg. To Be Allowed. I Know That For Fact.

Marcel

Honestly I think it is time to get over it. Their number was incorrect. It's been covered, you can keep kicking this to death all you want, but what's it doing for you. They aren't lying or doing anything malicious, it was a mistake. I think you need to take a deep breath.

The "Should Novak be the only motor?" topic has also been beaten to death. You can look for it in the BL section or in the ROAR section. It has been more than sufficiently covered and both sides of the debate are out there.

Treat Novak's numbers as a loose guide and tech for tampering. It's not hard. If somebody got DQ'ed, sorry bummer, but it's done. If you want to take something productive from this then take what you've learned from this thread and educate the track owner on how to tech using some common sense.

If at all possible, lower case letters would be so much easier to read. Maybe it is a Blackberry thing or something.

Tommy could not be more right here!

So much of what is posted on this thread is just way off.

The correlations of inductance to motor performance are flat out wrong. I'm not saying in my opinion they are wrong or that I think they are wrong. They just are wrong based on how motors actually work. I hate the idea that people are believing the stuff they are reading on HT lately and buying into it. This is the stuff that screws up the hobby.

I said it on here months ago that rules based on inductance are a bad idea. Now we're seeing why. Certainly part of the blame here goes to Novak for promoting it.

Base your rules on what you can see. The motor must be 21.5 turns of guage X wire. If a track chooses to validate that based on inductance then go for it, but don't use inductance to define the rule.

Right now you guys are legislating how well or how poorly a motor is wound based on what you're doing with the rules. That is why you're digging a hole. Inductance is fine for giving you a clue how many turns are on a motor when it is a low turn motor. The higher the number of turn the cloudier this gets. Will a "poorly" wound 20.5 have inductance that starts to overlap with a "very well" wound 21.5? Given the amount of variation in the meters and the influence of ambient conditions on the readings things start getting a lot less black and white.

What you need here is "keep it simple stupid". You simply state what motors are legal and that they may not be modified.

Then if you have an issue with someone you do a visual inspection and if you like check inductance.

If the inductance is a point or two low but the motor looks tamper free it is fine.

If the inductance is right where it should be, but the motor was unsoldered it illegal.

If the motor appears tamper free but the inductance is significantly off you tear it down.

I'm not understanding why this is so hard to figure out. You do not use a number off an inductance meter as the end all and be all of legality.

If you do what I said above you will have it covered in 99.99% of cases. If that is not good enough then start asking Novak and ROAR for a more tamper resistant motor. In my opinion that would be a waste of money, but if you guys want to pay more for motors to have it then fine, at least it makes more sense then busting ROAR and Novak's chops over the inductance.


awesome post

I just checked our sales records. Do you want to guess how many 21.5T motors we ship per month? A grand total of 72.

I'm sitting here, reading and thinking----these comments and insults are way too much drama for the minimal profit from 72 motor sales per month.

I feel responsible, since I'm the person, from Novak, who spearheaded the release of this particular wind motor. I guess hindsight is 20/20.

We are already metering each motor and offering to replace any motors, no questions asked.

So, tell me, what else should we do?

NovakTwo

If possible, can you put those numbers in perspective..

IE: How do they compare with other motors NOVAK is selling, and how does it compare with the new 1/8th scale OFF-ROAD Brushless Conversions?

Just so these guys can have an idea (since so many like 'hard numbers')

( I have no clue what the P.M. is on a b/l motor, but assuming it's in the 15-18 dollar range per motor, I can gaurantee you it's NOT WORTH THE TIME that is spent making them...and I for ONE like the 21.5 motor deal and DON'T want to LOSE it)

NovakTwo

If possible, can you put those numbers in perspective..

IE: How do they compare with other motors NOVAK is selling, and how does it compare with the new 1/8th scale OFF-ROAD Brushless Conversions?

Just so these guys can have an idea (since so many like 'hard numbers')

( I have no clue what the P.M. is on a b/l motor, but assuming it's in the 15-18 dollar range per motor, I can gaurantee you it's NOT WORTH THE TIME that is spent making them...and I for ONE like the 21.5 motor deal and DON'T want to LOSE it)

Sales of 17.5 and 13.5 (each) are about 7 to 8 times more per month than the 21.5

I/We did a lot of work to create a place for the 17.5 in cross markets. Personally, I haven't with the 21.5. This was a motor I didn't see a place for anywhere but OVAL, other than maybe as a NOVICE motor in some of the other racing types. (Would be a great NOVICE MOTOR in Off-Road and/or On-Road) But since some of those guys already complain about the rollout of the 17.5, it may be a tough sell.

The competition level of the 21.5 w/ LIPO batteries is AWESOME on Oval tracks though, and if the B.S. doesn't KILL IT - it WILL be the largest class at the 2008 ROAR Paved Oval Nat's.

tour, the 21.5 WOULD be a great motor for off road.there ARE those of us in the off road community that would love to see a 21.5 = stock class racing just to make stock more beginner freindly like it used to be before the re-buildable stockers came along.with todays batteries(lipos) there is no reason NOT to slow the action down a bit in the off road world.

420,

That would be great - I know the few times I've even mentioned the 21.5's to some of the offroaders, I got beat up...but as always, that comes from guys who WOULDN'T be running the motor. (Which is where MOST negativity usually comes from)

yeah ther are ALOT of guys that run stock off road that forget that it's really a spec class for beginners that are better than novice.I would love to see the 21.5 in off road for one big reason. LESS broken parts for beginners which equals less discourageing race days for them, and in turn keeps them coming back to race.besides alot of guys whined about the 17.5 for off road before they realized it was a torque machine that you could gear the living daylights out of.I got the jump on them running one in 1/12 over the winter so I knew where I would need to be geared to hang with a brushed stocker in dirt. for those guys that need to be faster than everybody else, go and run some mod buggy with the big guys if you wanna go fast. Problem with that for most guys is that requires some throttle control. LOLwe have all seen race days where the stock lap times are just as fast as the mod lap times on dirt!