Hey guys I operate Lailspeedway in maryville Tn. We run 2 breakout classes with any motor brush or brushless. We also run brushless classes. Last week novak released there new inductance spec on there motors.
During tech we found two 21.5 motors that were 4 to 5 points lower than there minium inductance reading the motors were inspected and no type of tampering was found. In fact one of the motors was just returned to customer from novak. My question to you guys is if the motor was found not to meet novaks minium spec. should they be held responisible for the cost of replacement or the racer bear the cost.

Thanks Lee Ricker
Lailspeedway

Well would it make sense to just either call them or email Charlie?

I'm sure they'll just replace it.

Novak recommends:

"Any motors found to be lower can be sent to Novak for confirmation, if needed."

"Note: All inductance meters have some variance. It is possible, and very likely, that your meter will read slightly lower or higher than the numbers posted below in the chart."

Be sure to check them at room temp.
http://www.teamnovak.com/Tech_info/motor_tech/index.html

It says 4.5 µH variance for 21.5 motors. Your readings look just about on the money?

Novak recommends:

"Any motors found to be lower can be sent to Novak for confirmation, if needed."

"Note: All inductance meters have some variance. It is possible, and very likely, that your meter will read slightly lower or higher than the numbers posted below in the chart."

Be sure to check them at room temp.
http://www.teamnovak.com/Tech_info/motor_tech/index.html

the way i read it it is not suppose to below 40 and no more than 4.5 between poles

This is pretty much the norm for Novak....I haven't seen any of the novak motors anywhere close to each other. They seem to run about the same on the track is the only saving grace.......You would think that a Handwound motor could be produced with close tolerances.....My guess is we need some Rules for Brushless motors!!!!!!!

That sounds more logical.

Do you have a bunch that read within specs and just a couple that read low?

As far as Novak being responsible, I'm sure they won't have any problem replacing them at no cost to you. They are a stand up company.

Note: All inductance meters have some variance. It is possible, and very likely, that your meter will read slightly lower or higher than the numbers posted below in the chart. These readings are the low limit. If your motor is reading lower than the results in the chart, you should reinspect your motor further. No single reading should be lower than the numbers in the chart, and all three coils should vary no more than the variance number (The variance number is the maximum difference from the highest reading to the lowest reading).

From the novak site.....

Guys I teched serveral 21.5 motors and 17.5 motors all the 17.5 motors were within 2 points of each other all the 21.5 were between 146 to 147.
One 21.5 was 140.5 and two motors were 136 and 135 this was checked with a new Bk meter and another meter. Both meters were reading the same. I don't it is an issue with different in LCR meters.

I was at the track yesterday and my motor was one checked.

These sre the readings Lee got on the meter that I remember:

135.5
137.0
145.5 mine
147.0

The meter is a bk not sure the model.

I'd contact Novak, see what they suggest.

Like pat said in the 2nd post. haha

I was at the track yesterday and my motor was one checked.

These sre the readings Lee got on the meter that I remember:

135.5
137.0
145.5 mine
147.0

Not one read close to 140. The meter is a bk not sure the model.

Scott I checked a motor thhat belonged to derrick Robbins buddy, and I remember correctly it was between 140 and 141 and all three poles

I personally have one that reads 135'ish to 136 on all three poles. And I know of six others that are close to that same reading.

Anyone Have Charlie's Email ?

Charlie@teamnovak.com

Thank You Sir :)

Marcel

I personally have one that reads 135'ish to 136 on all three poles. And I know of six others that are close to that same reading.

exactly as I suspected! This is more than just a couple motors here and there. We need a concrete resolution before the paved Nats. on these numbers.

I talk to Charlie this morning. As was stated on the web site motor complance #'s are correct any motors that are found to be lower than stated can be sent back to novak for inspection. If motor is found to be lower than specs and isn't been tampered with, the motor will be replaced. Thats all you can ask for from a
manufacturer. So any of you guys willing to send your motor in for inspection.

I talk to Charlie this morning. As was stated on the web site motor complance #'s are correct any motors that are found to be lower than stated can be sent back to novak for inspection. If motor is found to be lower than specs and isn't been tampered with, the motor will be replaced. Thats all you can ask for from a
manufacturer. So any of you guys willing to send your motor in for inspection.


This will be a huge mess at the Oval Nats in August! too many motors below 140 so I hope someone has a big box of motors for replacements!!!

Thats all you can ask for from a
manufacturer. So any of you guys willing to send your motor in for inspection.

First I'm a Novak fan, :thumbsup: but.... that is great that Novak will exchange the motor. But, I think we should ask them not to send motors that read too low. I can see a few and maybe that all it is. You are still out shipping and the time without the motor.

I must not be following this story properly. More than one motor has been sold that has possible performance greater than the rest and people want to send it back or remove the motor from competition. Are they crazy! You don't pass on a good thing.

Did the thought occur that maybe the samples that Novak used to determin the hi-low readings was not an adequate sample size to account for outliers.

I remember somebody saying that tech done based on inductance would be a bad idea and that a visual inspection would be far more worthwhile.

Hmmmm I wonder who said that.....


I must not be following this story properly. More than one motor has been sold that has possible performance greater than the rest and people want to send it back or remove the motor from competition. Are they crazy! You don't pass on a good thing.

Did the thought occur that maybe the samples that Novak used to determin the hi-low readings was not an adequate sample size to account for outliers.

It's not a good thing when you run into an overzealous track owner who isn't up to date on what is going on and you get DQ'ed. Not really worth it for an "advantage" that is basically nil.

We all know that some brushed stock motors performed better then others, but you never knew what one would be good or bad. Now there is a way to tell which brushless motors are "out of spec" and they can removed from the market. Should make racing more fair.

5/31/2008 *Conditional Approval until 5/31/2008 see website News

All 17.5 and 13.5 BL motors ROAR approval has ran out! Now what?

All this is a mute point, Novak doesn't make rules! The only organization with the power to influence MFGs is Roar! At this time Roar doesn't have a rule package for brushless motors. As of May 31 2008 the conditional approval has expired. What does that mean! Not much really, since no rules are in place.

Hey Jimmy , Where Does It Say The 21.5 Was Approved ?

I Can't Find Anything Saying That.

Marcel

5/31/2008 *Conditional Approval until 5/31/2008 see website News

All 17.5 and 13.5 BL motors ROAR approval has ran out! Now what?

:rolleyes:

There are times when I wonder whether people's hobby is RC racing or starting crap on the internet about RC racing.

I Don't Know If You Were Directing That Personally At Me Pmsimkins But I Was Simply Asking Where I Could Find Information On Roar Approving That Particular Motor.

Roar, The Sanctioning Body, Doesn't Have It On Their List. :)

Marcel

Hey Jimmy , Where Does It Say The 21.5 Was Approved ?

I Can't Find Anything Saying That.

Marcel


OOPs sorry 21.5 isn't on the list.......

So Am I To Assume We All As A Group Have Been Running 21.5 Motors "without" Roar's Approval ?

I Honestly Thought That I Had Just Overlooked It. I Just Joined Roar To Run The Regions So I Haven't Visited Their Site That Much.

Thanks Jimmy,

Marcel

I Don't Know If You Were Directing That Personally At Me Pmsimkins But I Was Simply Asking Where I Could Find Information On Roar Approving That Particular Motor.

Roar, The Sanctioning Body, Doesn't Have It On Their List. :)

Marcel

No not you.

It simple, we need rules! Will Roar see that there is a need for a 21.5 BL motor rule? I hope so....

That sounds more logical.

Do you have a bunch that read within specs and just a couple that read low?

As far as Novak being responsible, I'm sure they won't have any problem replacing them at no cost to you. They are a stand up company.

i will definetely agree with you on this i had a problem with a novak speedo and charlie and the people over at novak took care of it with no questions asked actually i just got it back in the mail today i was 100% happy with the service that i received from them it was second to none novak is awsome

Stand Up Companies Don't Produce Motors That Tech Below Their Own Numbers.

Motors That Were Made After The Numbers Were Released !!!

OOPs sorry 21.5 isn't on the list.......

Might not be on the list, but for the 21.5 LiPO class at the ROAR Paved Oval Nationals the subline states "Novak 21.5 brushless motors". If that is the only rule, I would be keeping those sub-inductance motors.

As for brushed motors, a good motor builder had an inductance meter in there box at home. It is nothing new.

Racing since the advent of brushless is the best it has ever been. I agree that the motors that are shipped out should fit into to specs set forth by the manufacturer but I curious about inductance vs performance advantage. Again I agree that everything should fit into the spec but how much difference (performance wise) is there between a 140 motor and a 137 motor? Inductance differences in brushed motors (machine wound stockers) had much larger differences just between poles on the arm and the differences from arm to arm total average inductance varied better than 5 in most cases. I guess what I am saying is that this is a mountain out of a mole hill again. It all goes back to chassis so really a motor at the top of the tolerance compared to a motor at the bottom should run almost perfectly the same on the track as the actual difference in the motor is very very small and therefore should not show up performance wise, that is unless you are a perfect driver with a perfect set up running the perfect line on the perfect track in a vaccume. Again, I agree the motor should make spec.

Cliff you are correct no difference found in performance between 137 and 140 but there is a noticeable performance difference between 135 and 147.5 and yes chassis is still a bigger factor as is driving but with that being equal you will see the difference.

What is the new guy or the little guy going to think if he is getting beat by a motor that is not deamed "legal" by the inductance readings. Everyone knows that a normal racer is going to get beat 99 out of 100 times by guys like Greg Honeycutt, and Frank U., and Jamie Hanson, but if they are getting beat by motor and chassis knowledge there is no chance they will stick around.

The motors should fall within the tolerance for just that reason. Can you imagine what a circus this is going to be with open motors? EA said it him self that there was a big difference between motor brands and their inductance even though there seemed to be little difference on the track.

Well I think if we open the motors ONLY the ones that fall into a set of inductance reading should be legalized. Until those are set we at least need to have the current legal motors fall into those acceptable readings.

What is the new guy or the little guy going to think if he is getting beat by a motor that is not deamed "legal" by the inductance readings. Everyone knows that a normal racer is going to get beat 99 out of 100 times by guys like Greg Honeycutt, and Frank U., and Jamie Hanson, but if they are getting beat by motor and chassis knowledge there is no chance they will stick around.

thats not always true. myself i've been getting beat by hanson, frankie, racknor, dean and others for a number of yrs.now and i'm still racing. a true hobbyist races for the fun not who he beats. in mich. we have a small oval group with alot of good drivers who constantly beat myself and others but it doesn't matter to any of us because we a great time when we race and that makes it way to much fun to give it up. i also should mention zipp, kingsley, johnny tan lines, and a few others who have been in a mains at several brl events.

thats not always true. myself i've been getting beat by hanson, frankie, racknor, dean and others for a number of yrs.now and i'm still racing. a true hobbyist races for the fun not who he beats. in mich. we have a small oval group with alot of good drivers who constantly beat myself and others but it doesn't matter to any of us because we a great time when we race and that makes it way to much fun to give it up. i also should mention zipp, kingsley, johnny tan lines, and a few others who have been in a mains at several brl events.

I agree with you completly. Not everyone thinks like us though. I know a lot of guys that leave because they can't win. I like the challenge of trying to beat those guys. Even if I can only keep up for a few laps, at least I can say I did that.

What is the new guy or the little guy going to think if he is getting beat by a motor that is not deamed "legal" by the inductance readings.

The NEW guy is usually in AWE of the guy beating him - the 'LITTLE' guy ALWAYS thinks he's getting beat by MOTOR and BATTERY whether he is or not.

What I say is...before you worry about being BEAT by 'performance, make sure you can look at your lap times...and see PERFECT consistency...once you are THERE - then hunt for those LITTLE performance enhancers. (I myself in a 60 lap race can run 40-45 AWESOME laps..and lose concentration and blow the rest... So the 12-15 laps I might pick up .02 a lap, get BLOWN by the 7-8 laps I kill myself .4 - .6 on.)

Something I've seen - and seen alot with both BRUSHED and now BRUSHLESS motors... Is guys swapping motors to try to find speed...before they try fine tuning the gears and stuff they have. What I find more funny is some of the guys who are the fastest...do just that - and have only ONE or TWO motors and are consistantly FAST....and are ALWAYS working on the actual CAR.







DISCLAIMER: Now, I know most of the racers here on H/T are 'perfect' drivers and don't have those issues to worry about...so spending days and nights worrying about some of these issues instead of making their driving and cars more consistant isn't a factor. - LOL

The motors should fall within the tolerance for just that reason. Can you imagine what a circus this is going to be with open motors? EA said it him self that there was a big difference between motor brands and their inductance even though there seemed to be little difference on the track.

From what I have heard from people who race onroad alot, it's not that big of a deal. The Novak motors actually seem to have the lowest inductance of all the companies motors(versus, LRP, Speed Passion, Trinity, not sure about Hacker though). ROAR has their own set of specs for inductance based on the motors that were submitted to them by the mfg for approval. The LRPs must meet the LRP specs, the Novaks must meet the Novak specs, not all motors meeting one spec.

In the case of the low Novak motors, at a ROAR race it shouldn't matter if the inductance numbers meet Novaks specs or not, they must meet the specs that ROAR has for the Novak motors submitted to them. So depending on ROAR's inductance numbers, your motor might still be legal(or still illegal)

sheesh:freak: well it was fun while it lasted, lol