i predicted handout brushless motors for the birds 2009! looks like i am on target!

Entry fee for the 2008 IIC has been announced!

All 13.5 and 17.5 classes will be receiving handout Brushless motors included with their entry fee for this year’s event. As Brushless technology has taken over the RC world, we wanted to offer this great technology in a handout format to our racers at this year’s IIC. Entry fee for this year’s 13.5 and 17.5 classes will be as follows: $165.00 for your first class and your 2nd and 3rd class will be $90.00. Given the handout motors for this year's event will be Brushless we are very excited to only have a $15.00 increase in entry fees from last year.


boylan is sure to follow...sponsor dollars and motor sales = handouts!:thumbsup:

Well i know a lot of guys where not happy with the Brushless stuff from the last birds. But what about Speedos what are they doing to keep the Electronical Masterminds from increasing power threw the ESC??

we just opened up the 10.5 class to any esc here in florida...so far we have tried speedpassion,tekin,novak and lrp.....90% of the guys went back to lrp. so far no magic joo joo with the other brands.

Well i know a lot of guys where not happy with the Brushless stuff from the last birds.

You heard wrong!!!!!!

i predicted handout brushless motors for the birds 2009! looks like i am on target!

Entry fee for the 2008 IIC has been announced!

All 13.5 and 17.5 classes will be receiving handout Brushless motors included with their entry fee for this year’s event. As Brushless technology has taken over the RC world, we wanted to offer this great technology in a handout format to our racers at this year’s IIC. Entry fee for this year’s 13.5 and 17.5 classes will be as follows: $165.00 for your first class and your 2nd and 3rd class will be $90.00. Given the handout motors for this year's event will be Brushless we are very excited to only have a $15.00 increase in entry fees from last year.


boylan is sure to follow...sponsor dollars and motor sales = handouts!:thumbsup:


Only problem is- if the motors are speed Passion motors, the Novak guys are in deep trouble!!!!! The Trinity motors are relabeled Speed pasion motors!

Hmm... my crystal ball tells me that NOVAK will make their controllers firmware updatable in the future. It will be the only way to get the most out of thier controllers with other brand motors as such the case with handouts.

Only problem is- if the motors are speed Passion motors, the Novak guys are in deep trouble!!!!! The Trinity motors are relabeled Speed pasion motors!


The Trinity, Speed Passion, Checkpoint, Orion, GM, etc, etc. etc. Are all manufactered by the same company, Feigao, however all to their own specs (however minutely different they may be).

So how would that place any of the novak drivers in more trouble than it would any of the drivers for the aforementioned companies?

What would be any different than if the novak motor was the handout?

If it's because you still think team drivers will get the better stuff, then make it a hacker motor. Hacker only has one driver that runs oval, Josh Cyrul.

Anyway it is done, it will be good or bad for one party or another.

But it doesn't matter, people will still piss and moan regardless.

Boylan will make the right decision, and decide what he thinks will be the best.


Trailranger,

You are probably correct and that is the only problem I see with handout brushless motors. This junk is getting way too technical. It sure was a lot more simple when all you had to do was cut the comm and throw in a pair of brushes.

-Adam Liehr

You are probably correct and that is the only problem I see with handout brushless motors. This junk is getting way too technical. It sure was a lot more simple when all you had to do was cut the comm and throw in a pair of brushes.

-Adam Liehr


have we all forgotten about the "spec" handout ultra bird motors over the past 4 or 5 years?

racers taking magnets out and putting in wayyy better magnets
cutting down p94 brushes to fit inside the hoods
magnet zapping
cutting the comm so small you got one run
magnet zapping to advance the timming
drilling the timming rings to advance timming
drilling arms to "balance" the arms
one run "soaked" brushes


there is a laundry list of things that have been tampered with in brushed racing.......the more things change,the more they stay the same.

now it's rotors
inductance
timming
special esc's

all of this is "our" fault for reading a rule book and finding those gray areas to exploit.


as for handout brushless motors.......everyone would run one and they would all be in the same boat.......just make them tamper proof and be done with it.:thumbsup:

The Trinity, Speed Passion, Checkpoint, Orion, GM, etc, etc. etc. Are all manufactered by the same company, Feigao, however all to their own specs (however minutely different they may be).

So how would that place any of the novak drivers in more trouble than it would any of the drivers for the aforementioned companies?

What would be any different than if the novak motor was the handout?

If it's because you still think team drivers will get the better stuff, then make it a hacker motor. Hacker only has one driver that runs oval, Josh Cyrul.

Anyway it is done, it will be good or bad for one party or another.

But it doesn't matter, people will still piss and moan regardless.

Boylan will make the right decision, and decide what he thinks will be the best.


Trailranger,

You are probably correct and that is the only problem I see with handout brushless motors. This junk is getting way too technical. It sure was a lot more simple when all you had to do was cut the comm and throw in a pair of brushes.

-Adam Liehr


Because the Novak motors are adjustable timing at the motors! and the speed passion type are timed by the speed control......NOVAK speed control put little to no timing in the motor! unlike LRP, Tekin, speed passion and most other speed controls.....Dyno a speed passion with a Novak then with any of the others and you will see the difference!!!! Its not hundreds of RPM, its Thousands!!!!!!! You can't make that up in gear!

All the speed passion/Trinity type are 0 timed at the motor and you can not adjust the timing at the motor! This is for the 13.5 BL and 10.5 BL motors.....Mod motors are different, I think you can change the timing on them at the motor........


Team TRINITY 2008
Hey guys,

I wanted to try to get a support thread going for Trinity. If you have any questions regarding the DUO brushless motors or the IB 4600's I'll do my best to answer them or find an answer for you.


Adam Liehr
Team Trinity

You are a Trinity driver you should know these things!!!!!!!!!

On the flipside - what do racers feel about oval opening up to multiple brand 13.5s and 10.5s, as they are doing in Roar in other forms of racing?

Some general thoughts and questions starting to come up in racing:
Leave all brushless classes Novak?
Open up brushless to 'ROAR' approved motors and multiple companies?
Allow tracks and Nationals to bid on 'brand specific' motors for 13.5 and/or 17.5 classes?

Katfish,

Agreed. I mainly just like the fact that, with brushed motors nearly everything is exposed now. It took some time, and it will again with brushless. Eventually we will all know all of the tricks and there will be rules in place.


Jimmy,

I haven't dyno tested anything, and in the limited 10.5 racing I have done it has been with a LRP speedo and a Novak motor.

So what about the difference with a Novak motor with the same timing run on a gtb vs. lrp?

And as far as being a Trinity driver, I've only run there for about four months. I haven't even tested any of their 10.5 motors, because they are illegal everywhere around here (for right now). The only Trinity motors I have run have been modified and they do have adjustable timing. Any of the races I have been at since joining Trinity have been Novak only. I'm sorry I didn't realize I had to know everything about a product I have yet to have the opportunity to test!!!! Especially when the minute I put it in my car I would be blasted on the net as a cheater.

And obviously you missed the last statement I made. "If I don't know the answer I will find it for you." I don't know everything about the product and therefore when people ask questions that I don't know the answer too, I take the time to ask questions myself and try to find the answer either on the forums or by asking friends. So I asked the questions that I did trying to find out for myself.

All I did was ask few questions and you want to have a pissing contest. Frankly, it's not worth the time to get into it with you.


Adam Liehr
Team Trinity

On the flipside - what do racers feel about oval opening up to multiple brand 13.5s and 10.5s, as they are doing in Roar in other forms of racing?


I think it is a good idea. As long as there is a range for wire size and length (inductance) I say go for it. It will only bring the prices down. I think they should be open timing as well.

Joel White

Should timing even be brought up in the rules - or left unwritten. Many are starting to believe it's not what it is cracked up to be. And some testing on the road side are showing some lower inductance brand motors might be getting too hot thus losing performance - and too much timing is yielding the same results. Rotor's might be the next frontier to master (with some things to watch and learn)....
Just trying to get some good topic discussion going.... thanks!

Hey Kat - not sure about handouts yet. Lot's of unknowns there. Plus the entry is more than double... with gas and the economy oval racers might not want to swallow that one.

Hey Kat - not sure about handouts yet. Lot's of unknowns there. Plus the entry is more than double... with gas and the economy oval racers might not want to swallow that one.

bingo on that one...... great idea to keep what did or did not happen this past years Birds with Bl motors down,out etc but you already said it there the AVG racer will not pay that fee, that race is NOT just about the big boys, as for opening up the rules for BL stuff, how can you not? just about every major MFG and then some has or will have BL motors and ESC's on the market now or by then. I just don't know if one or the other has a distinct advantage over the other, but I guess we would find out at the time of the race.

Might be worth looking into the idea of getting class motor sponsors. I think it would be sweet to see the 17.5 speedpasion class, and the 13.5 novak, 10.5 trinity etc. I think Mod should be left open as thats the way mod should be. I think that some of the motor companies would offer you (Mike or any race promoter) a great deal to get their product out there. The entry fee was 80 bucks last year, plus if you ran stock or 19 turn you had to buy your motor. So maybe you can do a $90 to $100 entry fee with a handout motor. I guess the fee would depend on the deal you could get for the motors, but I dont think many people would complain to much about that if you get a motor to boot. Maybe you could look into a rental motor type deal with the companies. Racers rent the motor for the weekend for like 10 bucks or something, then turn it back in. Then the companies can turn around and sell them as remanufactured stuff. Just a few thoughts. Dont mind all the miss spellings, its late and I am tired! :woohoo:

Joel White

Mike,

I think that opening it up would be a good idea. As long as the proper regulations are in place like Joel mentioned (length, guage, etc.)



Adam Liehr

Hacker only has one driver that runs oval, Josh Cyrul.


I'm not positive, but I do believe there are a couple drivers from Arizona who run HACKER and have been messing with them for a few years (3 or 4 maybe) and do a bit of OVAL racing. I believe it was either Josh Utley or Kyle Bergstrom or maybe both.

Opening this thing up would be a big mistake, a BIG mistake. I think Joel White has some good ideas about running the same motor by class ie: 17.7 Novak, 10.5 speed passion, 10.5 Hacker. The problem there is now the average Joe has to buy even more motors, not only does he need a different wind to run different classes but now he may need 2 or 3 motors of the same number of windings to be able to run the same class @ different tracks. We all saw what happened when Trinity came out with the 1st slot machine and ROAR allowed it, stock racing was all down hill from there, except for Trinity of course. Hand out brushless motors will make the entry fees too high for guys like me for races like the Snowbirds when you have to pay all that travel, 4-5 nights in a hotel (even @ the discount rate, it's a lot of money), meals and and and..........It all ends up being a lot of dough! Sure there are a small # of guys who can still afford to race @ the biggest oval race in the world but after making it too expensive for the average guy, will it still be the biggest? The paved oval Nat's entry fee is already high because of the Hand out tires (something that would be impossible to tech). The hand out tires became necessary because the tire wars were getting out of hand. Yes it sounds silly (tire wars) when there is only one brand involved but all you capped tire racers know what I mean. Now can you imagine having to purchase not only a couple of sets of tires, but a hand out motor to boot? I can't! I like racing more than eating and I'm a fat guy, but when the entry fee for one class @ a major race approaches 200 dollars, well, I will read about it on the net.

Let's look at this from different sides:

One Manufacturer Handout:
1. Everyone is on the same sealed motor.
2. Can that motor be used back at local tracks?
3. Limits other manufacturer exposure.
4. Easier on tech.
5. Higher entry fee.

One Manufacturer Bring Your Own:
1. Hand picked motors may show up.
2. Limits other manufacturer exposure.
3. Possible headache for tech.
4. Lower Entry Fee.

Open Manufacturer Bring Your Own:
1. Hand Picked Motors may show up.
2. Open exposure for other manufacturers
3. Possible Headache for Tech
4. Lower Entry Fee

IMHO......for the Snowbirds this is what I would vote for:

Mod classes - OPEN
10.5 classes - OPEN must be tech'd and sealed
13.5 classes - Sealed handout
17.5 classes - Sealed handout
21.5 classes - Sealed Novak handout (cost effective for 21.5/Lipo tracks)

Tony-
I agree with most of your post, but whats up with 21.5 Novak? What do you mean by "(cost effective for 21.5/Lipo tracks)"? I think others are now coming out with 21.5 motors.

Thanks Joe, my mistake.

Good post Tony!

I agree, 10.5 and Mod need to be open!


-Adam Liehr

I actually agree with Tony on this one.

Mod should be open, because, well its mod obviously.
10.5 is the new mod (I heard that somewhere). Whether it is or not, the participation in the class has dwindled in the BRL which is the only hold-out on the one manufacturer rule. At Snowbirds, the class did pretty well, but a lot of that was guys from the southeast and especially the Florida crew. As Kat said, Florida is now opening up to any speedo, so I figure any motor wouldn't be too far behind (especially since we now have open motor in on-road racing). My only worry about the class is that with ROAR leaving the 10.5 to die in on-road, what does that due to motor companies and will they want to continue building them just for oval racers.
13.5 is sort of the every man class. For the most part its the class where the weekend warriors meet the pro drivers and the fur flies. In my mind I'd like it to stay on as level a playing field as possible with the same equipment for all. Leave it up your chassis tuning and your driving and when you can compete there, you know you've got something good.
17.5 and lower is the every week class and the new stock class. Try to keep it as budget as possible...no motor wars, no speedo wars, no battery wars (which is one of the big reasons Lipo has gained momentum).So yeah, pretty much what Tony said :gasp:.

As long as ROAR sets the spec for the motors being built, I can't see a problem with allowing other manufacturers. The problem I see is if ROAR restricts it to one motor (Novak), couldn't they be opening themselves up to a lawsuit from other manufacturers?

Some general thoughts and questions starting to come up in racing:
Leave all brushless classes Novak?
Open up brushless to 'ROAR' approved motors and multiple companies?
Allow tracks and Nationals to bid on 'brand specific' motors for 13.5 and/or 17.5 classes?

I'm fine with open speedos, but not open motor. We probably should have stayed with one speedo too, but that ship sailed years ago when the original LRP came out.

If I have to chase which motor is fastest, let alone which motor is fastest with which speedo I won't be attending the race.

I'm sorry but the old wire length and gauge rules will not cut it. If the those rules were sufficient to equalize motors then why were the other brands of stock motors clearly inferior to Trinity when they all followed those same rules back in the brushed days? I think everyone who attended ROAR nats 5-6 years ago and has Reedy MVP paperweights knows that.

If I see someone come up with a realistic set of rules that would create a level playing field I'd be open to changing my mind, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

Oval would be such a small portion of the market for these companies whether we allow everyone or not is going to have zero impact on the pricing.

As far as sponsorship dollars from the big companies, where were all of them before BL got going? Why should I think if they are allowed now they'll suddenly start supporting oval when they never did before? Carpet Nats was any speedo allowed, right. I could be wrong but when I went to the website I didn't see Tekin, LRP or Speed Passion on the sponsor list. Maybe Novak paid to be exclusive or something, but to me it didn't look like a very impressive start for the massive amount of manufacturer support I keep hearing about.

Tony-
I agree with most of your post, but whats up with 21.5 Novak? What do you mean by "(cost effective for 21.5/Lipo tracks)"? I think others are now coming out with 21.5 motors.

IMHO.......most track run a 21.5/Lipo as an entry level low cost class. Here is the Carolina's Novak 21.5 motor, Orion/Peak 3200 Lipo, and Spec Tires. If these guys were wanting to run the Birds (a high dollar national event) they can take their Novak 21.5 motor back to their home tracks and be able to run them.

This just helps justify the added expense of a Nation Level event and we all know Mike will do what's best for the racers.

Just as a side note, I would bet $100.00 that at the 2008 Paved Nats 21.5/Lipo WILL be the largest class. Then sit back and ask yourself.........why?

...here's one.

How about BRING A MOTOR - One MFG.

ALL the motors get put in a BOX and drawn out randomly. NOBODY has a 'special pick' motor. Nobody would be willing to bring a SUPER motor in fear that SOMEONE else might get it..and they wouldn't bring CRAP in fear THEY might get it.

As for the ROAR rules, etc. Maybe it's time ROAR got OUT of the racing business - and focused more on RULES and CLUB organization, and let the tracks and clubs worry about the racing...and not worry about the "NATIONALS" ..since so few want to actually JOIN and SUPPORT the organizations anyway - they just want to show up for the NAT's (If that)

IMHO - in order to attend a NATIONAL event, you should have to have supported REGIONAL or LOCAL events at ROAR tracks throughout the year. The NAT's should be a MEETING of 'CLUB MEMBERS' who are out to be the organizations NATIONAL champion.

I would bet the same thing Tony!

Just as a side note, I would bet $100.00 that at the 2008 Paved Nats 21.5/Lipo WILL be the largest class. Then sit back and ask yourself.........why?


I can't answer the WHY part of this - but I can tell you our 21.5/LIPO class continues to GROW every race.

I was kind of shocked to only see 4 entries on the CARPET for the NAT's in 21.5 lipo, but thought...maybe it's a regional thing..or a carpet thing. I don't know much about that area back there...but out here...right now both 17.5 and 21.5 w/ LIPO are both having a lot of fun.

Although several have found the competition level in the 17.5/LIPO is abit too agressive for them, and the speeds in the 21.5 are quite a bit faster than STOCK, so there's a few that are dropping down a class.

I wish we had enough racers to do a 4 cell/17.5 class too. I think those speeds on the outdoor tracks would be just right for a lot of guys too.

So what about the difference with a Novak motor with the same timing run on a gtb vs. lrp?



Adam Liehr
Team Trinity


I have not ran a LRP, but from what I've heard the LRP adds more timing to the Novak motors. This require less gearing, so the difference is a little gearing.

The speed Passion type motors have massive rotors in them, way stronger than a novak rotor. This is one reason for lower RPM.....

As long as ROAR sets the spec for the motors being built, I can't see a problem with allowing other manufacturers. The problem I see is if ROAR restricts it to one motor (Novak), couldn't they be opening themselves up to a lawsuit from other manufacturers?

There is the KEY!! Like it or Not ROAR is our Voice to the MFGs...They are the ones setting the Rules for the classes an the motors run in those classes! They have dropped the ball and are trying to catch up!!! They are going to need to write a set of rules for the motors and the Motor companies will have to adjust to be legal......only problem is new motors are being released almost every day under no rule package at all!

So to run all these motor together at the moment will be very hard...We need motor rules........

For me the small man in rc oval I would like to see us stick with some thing and deal with it all this dose in my mind is cost alot more money to the little guy racing some time drives people away seen for 4 years alot of people come and go to bad would be alot more fun racing 20 people not 5 or 6!Just what I think but what do I know I'm just the little guy in rc oval.The current track I run we all run the same systems works out great anyone can win any race that what I call racing!

There you have it folks, The truth from the little guy! I second what Bad 6 has said. A lot of little guys just want to race and have a good time so all you sponsored speed freaks take heed, kill the little guy and you won't have a sponsor or a place to race. Most racers want well enough left alone!

There you have it folks, The truth from the little guy! I second what Bad 6 has said. A lot of little guys just want to race and have a good time so all you sponsored speed freaks take heed, kill the little guy and you won't have a sponsor or a place to race. Most racers want well enough left alone!Ditto that,Cliff! LEAVE IT ALONE!! We all have it good right now,as it is with all of us using the same motor manufacturer!! It also enables all of those that travel to race at different tracks to use the same motor without any fears of having to buy a special motor just for that particular track.

WOW! seems like there is a few schools of thought on all of this!

local tracks will always have there own set of rules and what works for them..

major races ..are major expenses a handout brushless that i could use the year round would work for me!

let's keep the discussion positive and please no mud slinging,lol.

WOW! seems like there is a few schools of thought on all of this!

local tracks will always have there own set of rules and what works for them..

major races ..are major expenses a handout brushless that i could use the year round would work for me!

let's keep the discussion positive and please no mud slinging,lol.

The only one I'm gonna get ugly with is you Katfish!:woohoo:

That was my view not mudd slinging or not being positive just calling it the way I see sorry if I upset anyone.I 've learned also over the last 4 years some people want it there way and just can't here anything but that, please have a openmind and be fair to all want even look to see whats say don't race with you guys anyway just a out sider look in.

Tony, when Katf1sh get's ugly, he likes to work alone! Bill, if it were a motor you could use all year that would be a good thing, sort of. If I already had the motor then why would I need to buy another one? I like what was done @ the speedway race. I don't think keeping the top motors solved anything but the pre race tech/motor sealing was a great idea.

i think we are heading in a good direction.......like the economy i think as time goes by things will get sorted out..or at least i hope........i bought handout brushed motors only to use them on a downrigger 45 miles off the coast of daytona!

yea those old reedy motors could sink a balloon to 200'. People will just have to get to the track a little earlier for pre tech but for most guys going to a big race, that won't be a problem. Or they could be teched afterwards like it has been done for years, after all the racer is responsable for the legality of his motor. Personally I would get mine checked before the race whether they were going to seal them or not just to be sure I was legal on the "track" meter.

I really think that if you allow any motor, you're going to lose a lot of racers, the thing that got most guys into brushless was, buy one motor and just race and have a good time. Novak's motors have been, for the most part, pretty similar in performance all along, I know there are guys that think they have to have the very best rotor and will buy tons of them just to get the best one, but those guys are always going to try and buy speed. There is also the idea of perception, A racer has X motor and he won, if I have that motor I will win too, which is usally not the case.

If you start allowing any brand of motor, then it CERTAINLY will become the motor of the week, and most racers won't want to spend the money to get a new motor everytime some manufacturer decides it time to fill his wallet. All the changes and always having to buy new stuff is my bet as to why you went from 400 cars at nats to 80+.

Novak has supported oval and has done the R&D that made brushless racing what it is today and if any motors are allowed the numbers at big events will dwindle as well as at the the local level, unless the local clubs have the guts to put a stop to this proliferation.

I would guess that Sonny and the BRL are able to look forward and see that this is not going to be good for racers, but very good for manufactures.

don't forget almost all new brushless motors will be lighter! and that makes a difference as well......


it does look like there are only a handfull of true different brushless motor companies...for 10.5 13.5 and 17.5 and 21.5

example trinity/feiago/speedpassion all the same........

Again I think if they come up with a set of rules for building the brushless motors how can it be bad? All the motors should be just about the same. At least they should be as similar as the speed controls that are now available. The thing that this will open up is loyalty to your brand. If someone really likes Tekin they can run the Tekin RS, and the 13.5 Redline motor. It may also help with R&D, and quality control for everyone else.

My thoughts were to have ROAR come up with a 'basic blueprint' design for LEGAL motors.

IF you want to play in their GAME - you build your motors TO the blue print...No GRAY areas.

...as far as 'brand loyalty' goes. In general, the only people I've ever seen that are BRAND loyal are GUYS who get stuff by being 'sponsored' (and I've seen some there - who still didn't run their sponsors stuff - just their sponsors STICKERS)

EVERYONE Else's loyalty is to WHAT EVER product of the week gives the perception of being faster

The simplest solution is usually the right one.

The goal: Equal Motors

Solution 1: Pick one brand and mandate it.

Solution 2: Attempt to create a rule book that places a tolerance on every single factor in a motor design that can effect performance on a motor. Then create a way of measuring and validating every single one of these factors. Assuming that both of those things are even possible, which they aren't.

Hmmmmmm which solution is simplest. What am I missing here?

Back in the day... it sure was fun to have 'motor rivalries' and competition among teams and drivers. We have that now but not at the level is seemed to be in the early to mid 90's.

The problem with R&D is Joe racer will pay the bill. Whoever wants brand loyalty (as if) can put a nice sticker of their favorite brand on their Novak Motor.Again I think if they come up with a set of rules for building the brushless motors how can it be bad? All the motors should be just about the same. At least they should be as similar as the speed controls that are now available. The thing that this will open up is loyalty to your brand. If someone really likes Tekin they can run the Tekin RS, and the 13.5 Redline motor. It may also help with R&D, and quality control for everyone else.

Back in the day... it sure was fun to have 'motor rivalries' and competition among teams and drivers. We have that now but not at the level is seemed to be in the early to mid 90's.


Mike,

How much of that was because OVAL was huge then and supported more by the MFGs?

A NATIONAL Event or a race like RCThunderdrome or one of the BIG races at the WHIP or KING that drew HUGE turnouts ... also drew ALL the Mfgs. and their TEAM drivers.

Except for your 'Birds - those days are long gone on the OVAL scene. I can only wish I could turn one of our VELO races into what the old RCThunderdrome was. (Actually - NO THANK YOU - too much work for this tired old man) Our SHOOTOUT is just about the PERFECT size race for me. It should have 60 or so entries - so it will be INTENSE, yet free enough to be FUN and get guys lots of track time.

(IF YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO A VELODROME OVAL RACE - YOU NEED TO TRY ONE at least ONCE in YOUR LIFE... Encino Velodrome, CA and/or Major Taylor Velodrome in INDY are currently the only TWO velo's in the country that I know of having R/C Car events.)

Whoever wants brand loyalty (as if) can put a nice sticker of their favorite brand on their Novak Motor.

Novak offers different color center rings for thier motor... so how about NOVAK being like what TRINITY was with oval motors - they can be the O.E. for everyone...and you can change the colored ring and put YOUR sticker on them - just like was done w/ BRUSHED motors... LOL