You know what, I am glad my racetrack allows any ESC and any ROAR approved motor in our oval and sedan classes. Why, becuase anyone can compete without having to dump another $200 electronics when that money could be better spent upgrading their radio or pit equipment.

If someone has to be so selfish to say that there is no room for the little guys to start, then I don't want to be part of what you are doing.

The reason why I race is to socialize and have fun. Yes it would be fun to say I made it to the top and won several championships. I also realize that if winnig a title does not mean squat unless it was a real competition.

I would rather finish dead last in the A after beating out 50 racers to qualify. There is no glory to be handed a trophy when there wasn't enough racers to even fill the main.

I'm rather new to oval but have had a blast so far!I'm use to the Nitro off road where basically it's run what you brung and hope you brung enough!I don't know all the ins and outs of all the electrics...but I WILL!I think a lot of the guys that are in here raising heck about the rules are mostly guys that are running local tracks everyweekend and all the rules they are worried about aren't even going to effect there local racing.I know that rules have to be inplace for every kind of racing.I learned that in kart racing and have seen first hand ,how cheating and bending the rules can ruin it.I hope to get in there and mix it up with yall in the future .Don't get in here and complain about rules you can't change because it only makes it worse!

Scott that all sounds good on paper but as we all know, it aint so in the real world. Remember what stock racing was like in the 90's. Trinity came out with the slot machine, rebuildable stock motors you could disassemble and do anything you wanted to them as long as you didn't get caught. Befor that all stock motors were full stack motors and most motors were competitive with each other no matter if the can was epic or yokamo or whatever because the rules were adhered to but once Trinity got control of ROAR all hell broke loose. There was a new motor and/or brush all the time to go with continous battery and equipment upgrades. Now correct me if I am wrong but we are about 10% now of what oval was in 1990. There are hardly no tracks or hobby shops left anymore, this is not by accident. I have been in this hobby for 20 years without taking any time off from it and I have run a track for 17 years. I have seen it all, done it all and bought it all and like you Scott, I began to prefer racing Nitro pan cars because there was only one motor and how good the reciever pack was really wasn't a factor. A ton of people quit racing because of the battery wars, 5 tons quit because of the BS with the motors and a whole bunch of capped tire racers quit racing because you couldn't buy a round tire from BSR the last few years Ronnie Vines had it and they were really expensive and most guys just had to hang it up because they could not afford to buy 20 tires looking for 4 round ones. Like it or not, oval racing attendance all over the country barely equals the attendance of just the Sugar on a Saturday night in the early 90's. If the ROAR oval committee does not have the backbone to stand up to the manufacturers and dictate what is best for the racers at least put this issue to a vote among the oval racers. After all who is ROAR supposed to be representing here, the manufacturers or their membership???? If ROAR can not hold up their end fortunately there is the BRL and I am sure most oval racers will look to the BRL for their rules (like they do now) and say forget ROAR (like they have done for the past few years) because those guys (average Joes) don't want to spend the motor of the week money. Like you Scott, I will only be running Nitro @ the ROAR nats just like last year. Who really benefits from opening up the motors???

If the reason you race is to socialize and have fun, if that's really the reason you race, what freaking difference does it make what motor you are running as long as everyone is racing the same thing and you are just racing, socializing and having fun???You know what, I am glad my racetrack allows any ESC and any ROAR approved motor in our oval and sedan classes. Why, becuase anyone can compete without having to dump another $200 electronics when that money could be better spent upgrading their radio or pit equipment.

If someone has to be so selfish to say that there is no room for the little guys to start, then I don't want to be part of what you are doing.

The reason why I race is to socialize and have fun. Yes it would be fun to say I made it to the top and won several championships. I also realize that if winnig a title does not mean squat unless it was a real competition.

I would rather finish dead last in the A after beating out 50 racers to qualify. There is no glory to be handed a trophy when there wasn't enough racers to even fill the main.

Cliff -- you make very valid points. But we cannot go by "what happened" we must learn from it. As far as the STOCK WARS and all the crap in 19t, I agree. That is what this committee is aiming to avoid. I feel with motor rules in place and MFRS made to adhere to them, from what I understand they are willing, then I see no reason not to open it up. Because it went bad in the past just does not make it a valid reason not to do it. It does however make it a valid reason to police the situation better.

Scott this is not personal and I hope you don't take it that way but you also said "THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOUR LOCAL TRACK DOES OR DOES NOT DO. To an extent. If you as a local track owner see it as a benefit to limit your racers to Brand "X", go for it. As long as I can remember all the local track I ever went to ran ROAR rules with some tweaks to better suit them. Be it classes ROAR did not recognize or variations of the written ROAR rules" Well I am sorry but this has everything to do with what the local tracks do, I mean who makes up the oval racing community if it's not the local tracks??? How many local tracks are ROAR tracks (not very many, I am sure)? Why is that? Could it be the local tracks don't feel like they are represented properly by ROAR? What about the racers, do they feel repesented or could it be they think ROAR represents the highest bidder? You also said "Cliff -- you make very valid points. But we cannot go by "what happened" we must learn from it. As far as the STOCK WARS and all the crap in 19t, I agree. That is what this committee is aiming to avoid. I feel with motor rules in place and MFRS made to adhere to them, from what I understand they are willing, then I see no reason not to open it up. Because it went bad in the past just does not make it a valid reason not to do it. It does however make it a valid reason to police the situation better." People will always go by precedent, our laws, our entire country releys on precedent. I agree that you/we should learn from our past mistakes but that does not mean we should repeat them either. I will ask you again,"Who is ROAR trying to represent here???"

I agree with Scott. ROAR really has nothing to do with your local track. If your local track wants to run BRL rules then run BRL rules. If you want to attend a ROAR race then you can run BRL rules if you want, as it sounds like ROAR is going to allow Novak motors, so you whould be good to go at the National event.

As Scott said if they create a set of rules, and the MFR's follow them why not. You keep saying put it to a vote. That would not work becuase the very people you say you are trying to protect wont vote. You will only get the votes of the 100 or so people that read this thread. Or you could send them in the mail...I dont know about you, but I dont even read my mail, nor do I have much confidence in the USPS. So with that said if we vote here your "camp" will more than likley win based on the fact that there are a lot of pro BRL people on this site.

As Kevin said a few posts back other forms of racing have already accepted the other motors. Again oval is behind the times trying to live in the glory days of old.

If you don't vote then you can't complain. Nobody is trying to relive the glory days, but I darn sure don't want to relive the downfall from the glory days either. A lot of you guys just don't know........ So who is leading the times, Touring cars? I don't think so. I will ask you the same question I asked Scott. If ROAR has nothing to do with the local track and the local racers, who are they really representing?

what scott is trying to say is......

for roar events the 10.5 class will run any roar legal 10.5 motor 13.5 17.5 21.5 motor..motor has to be roar legal to run at a roar sanctioned event.

your local race track will continue to use what works best for them....even if it is a roar track...that just means you need to be a roar member to race there...not run roar rules..


the non sanctioned non roar BIG races like the birds and vegas will use a mixture of rules i'm sure......it also appears that "on-road" racers have not found a advantage between any of the 10.5 13.5 17.5 motors currently in the hobby shops.

BUT as a oval head who is anal about everything i will FEEL the NEED to BUY the lightest and "fastest" 10.5 motor known to man.... all it will take is someone setting atrack record with brand Y for me to switch.......


my stupid oppinion is

non roar BIG events = handout motors for 13.5 and 17.5 or novak only

non roar BIG events = open 10.5 motors

any esc is going to work out fine


roar events will require you finding out what roar approved motor is the best for the track the event is being held at....they will be open motors all classes


local track = what the racers want.......


with the above rules in place i see very few locals attending roar races and very few local tracks running open motors(roar legal) you may see more local tracks allowing open 10.5 and esc though........crystal balls are pricelss!

Yea, I get it Bill. I give up:freak: The numbers will tell the story in the end one way or the other. The numbers are sure in from stock and 19t racing in the late 90's/early 2000's:rolleyes:

I don't think door prizes at races does anything in the way of support. Don't get me wrong its nice, but it doesn't bring new racers or keep old ones. My idea of support is big full color ads in the magizines with oval cars. Right ups on races etc. Those are the things that get new people interested. If Putnam and Fantom and those guys get to send some door prizes that's fantastic but for the big picture it does nothing. I'm not saying Novak only fixes this or even helps, but I am saying that more motors doesn't help the big picture support stuff.

I'll get flamed for this by someone, but the only two companies that I saw that did any sort of write up or oval advertisement after the Snowbirds were Trinity and Tekin (i think).


During the end of the brushed era Novak speed controls won nearly everything. Monti Panzica won a the Birds, I won the Birds, Andy Mac won a bunch of races, and there was still nothing in magazines. Not necessarily saying that there should have been, but to exclude companies based on their magazine exposure for oval in magazines is irrational.


This I don't understand at all. You think having brand options will eliminate "special" motors. I don't get that. A lot of competition between motor companies will only serve increase the amount of special stuff or at least increase the perception of it. I'm sure you won't admit it, but right now I think you feel like you're disadvantaged or were disadvantaged because you aren't with Novak. You want your advantage back too, so you want your sponsor in the game.

Here's a question. If there were no competition at all i.e. no LRP in the game why would Novak bother to sort out the "special" stuff for their guys? What would be the point in doing that? They win either way.

If you want less special stuff then you should want zero competion. The more competition the more special stuff.

Good point. My mistake. However aren't we in this hobby for the competition?

I personally don't see myself at a disadvantage because I don't run for Novak. I ran for them for 5 years or so before I decided to try elsewhere. I knew when I did so that the Snowbirds would be Novak only, however knew that ROAR would also eventually open up the motor rule to some extent.

Would I like to have my motor sponsors motors and my speedo sponsors speed controls legal, that answer is simple; YES.

Would I push to have them legal if I thought that it would kill Oval racing, that answer is also simple; NO.



Unless of course the cheaper motor they purchase is inferior and then they just wasted $75+. Or when some moron sponsored driver tellls them you can't win with that piece of junk you need this XYZ brand of motor. You know that'll be happening. I've seen it over and over again.

It doesn't matter if it's to inferior, they just need to get laps. Unfortunately there are some sponsored drivers out there that will do that because they think that is what being sponsored is about. Granted your job is to sell product, but more times than not companies look at how well you help others before they look at your race results.

Name me the last serious oval race with serious competition that got won by a non-Trinity stock motor.

The majority of any handout stock motor race that I have seen in the past 5 years has had the track record beat by the inferior handout.

Most stock guys don't run other motors because the Trinity ones were the easiest to get fast. We saw this in 19turn as well. 99.9% of the 19turn drivers ran Trinity motors. The Fuji, Shock, Cobalt, D5, etc. However I know of 3races (with top drivers) that were won by over the counter Orion Top core motors which are identical to a Reed Ti motor that has been around forever. I think the guys name was TJ who won 19turn at the ROAR nats at Halo in 2005. Then I did at the Oval Masters and ARCOR open. On the dyno the motors sucked, but once you got the gearing right they were the most efficent thing on the track.

My honest opinion is that if you are going to only allow single brand motors, you might as well only allow single brand cars, tires, batteries, speedo's, bodies, etc. We have that type of racing, it's called spec. And those classes are just the ticket for some guys so by all means run them and have a great time. However for a national organization you cannot limit your competitors to one brand other than a handout. If you want oval to continue to grow to gain magazine coverage again, let companies see the growth and see their product win. I garuntee if you see someone win with an Orion, Tekin, etc. motor, you will eventually see coverage.

If everyone is running the same thing, then where is the desire by another company to come in and support oval racing? Eventually Novak will get bored with it, or what about a product shortage as someone mentioned. THey are having that problem with rubber tires for sedans. The main supplier changed chemicalls and now everyone is scrambling. .

Racing and business thrive on friendly competition.

Coke can't live without Pepsi.
-Adam Liehr

Yea, I get it Bill. I give up:freak: The numbers will tell the story in the end one way or the other. The numbers are sure in from stock and 19t racing in the late 90's/early 2000's:rolleyes:

Good move Cliff. I give up as well.

The real probelm here is that the group of racers in power whose voices will be heard are the ones who didn't quit through the 90s and early 00's. Obviously the spend at all costs system worked for them, personally I am fine with it too, but what works for me isn't the point here. Unfortunately the group of racers who we'll never hear from are the hundred's or maybe thousands who quit over the last 15 years.

Racers quit for two basic reasons.

1. They couldn't win.
We can't do anything about this group. They don't have the right psychological makeup to enjoy something they can't easily win at.

2. They couldn't afford it.
This is the group we could do something about. But if everyone wants to say screw you to this group then go for it. We'll see how it works out.

No one is capable of answering the fundamental question here which I keep asking.

How will allowing any motor bring in enough new racers to replace the ones we lose due to an increase in costs?

I've heard a lot of far fetched maybe's on how it will help things. But on the flip side it absolutely will increase costs. I don't even think anyone is challenging that point.

Good move Cliff. I give up as well.

The real probelm here is that the group of racers in power whose voices will be heard are the ones who didn't quit through the 90s and early 00's. Obviously the spend at all costs system worked for them, personally I am fine with it too, but what works for me isn't the point here. Unfortunately the group of racers who we'll never hear from are the hundred's or maybe thousands who quit over the last 15 years.

Racers quit for two basic reasons.

1. They couldn't win.
We can't do anything about this group. They don't have the right psychological makeup to enjoy something they can't easily win at.

2. They couldn't afford it.
This is the group we could do something about. But if everyone wants to say screw you to this group then go for it. We'll see how it works out.

No one is capable of answering the fundamental question here which I keep asking.

How will allowing any motor bring in enough new racers to replace the ones we lose due to an increase in costs?

I've heard a lot of far fetched maybe's on how it will help things. But on the flip side it absolutely will increase costs. I don't even think anyone is challenging that point.


Pat,

I'm in the do anything group, obviously. However it certainly isn't due to my over abundent cash flow. Racing on $7 an hour part time with full time college is pretty tough. I'm just lucky I can share expenses with my grandfather.

I really thought we were just having a friendly discussion on all of this. In the end we may have differen't opinions, but at least we brought up points for both sides. Now the guys in charge will make decisions. Hopefully soon. LOL

-Adam

.............. Nevermind

We both know it's going your way. I've been around long enough to know that.

I'll still be racing and I'll even still wave at ya when I go by! See you in the winter probably.

pat i think roar will have zero influence on local racing..i think the BRL has more influence in oval racing than roar has had in the last 15 years!

worry about what you can control and the rest comes easy...

like i said i feel the move is on to open up 10.5 ...but local race tracks will/should stick with what the racers want to do...

roar nats had 66 entries ...we get that many once a month at our club races...the brl series draws twice that at some tracks.....


and i read every post and thought they were all good!


i still say boylan goes the handout route as long as vegas is a hit! it was 80.00 to enter 1 roar class and you didn't get a handout anything! the clubs could use the handout motors for special races like we did the ultrabird motors in florida...

take a lemon and make lemonaide with it!