All right you all wore out the camber issue,LOL:hat:

Will and Mike, We need your expert advise:confused:

Is it the same thing and do you need it? :thumbsup:

In a bump steer, both wheels rise together. In roll steer, one wheel rises as the other falls. Typically this produces more "toe in" on one wheel, and more "toe out" on the other, thus producing a steering effect. In a simple analysis you can just assume that the roll steer is the same as bump steer, but in practice things like the Sway bar geometry have an effect that modifies it.

Roll steer is usually measured in degrees of toe per degree of roll, but can also be measured in degrees of toe per metre of wheel travel.

Now if i remember right Will and i both agree we use rear steer but we differ on which way of centerline

Rear steer can either tighten a car or make it very loose. Not only does the condition of rear steer affect the entry and middle handling balance, it also affects the handling under acceleration due to the thrust angle of the rear end being either right or left of the centerline of the car.

Lol,lol

:freak:You guys are to much. LOL:hat:Now if i remember right Will and i both agree we use rear steer but we differ on which way of centerline

Rear steer can either tighten a car or make it very loose. Not only does the condition of rear steer affect the entry and middle handling balance, it also affects the handling under acceleration due to the thrust angle of the rear end being either right or left of the centerline of the car.

Why not just give the link to RC-Setup?...LOL.:wave:

Anyone can use Steve Smith books or RC-Setup information but what is really needed here are actually 1/4 scale chassis adjustments, applications & techniques. Unless racers have had years of 1/4 scale racing experience or even full scale, the terminology these books and web pages offer will only confuse. It was very interesting reading all of the copy/paste information in the camber gain thread from auto racing sources but only a hand full of the posts could the average 1/4 scale racer relate to. And yes those auto sources have good information but what is needed here on H/T is someone that can break it down, decipher the numbers and interpret it to the "Joe 1/4 racer" needing to know what, how and when to adjust his chassis. :thumbsup:

Why not just give the link to RC-Setup?...LOL.:wave:

Anyone can use Steve Smith books or RC-Setup information but what is really needed here are actually 1/4 scale chassis adjustments, applications & techniques. Unless racers have had years of 1/4 scale racing experience or even full scale, the terminology these books and web pages offer will only confuse. It was very interesting reading all of the copy/paste information in the camber gain thread from auto racing sources but only a hand full of the posts could the average 1/4 scale racer relate to. And yes those auto sources have good information but what is needed here on H/T is someone that can break it down, decipher the numbers and interpret it to the "Joe 1/4 racer" needing to know what, how and when to adjust his chassis. :thumbsup:who the hell is steve smith iam not gona waste my time on a book that says this or that might happen unless he is driving my car i will setup by the seat of my pants:thumbsup:

The thing is i could give you my exact setup and you may hate it. you could whip my butt in a race with your car and if i tried to drive it i would be a half a second off your lap times. it all takes practice and personal preference, some like tight others like loose. just got to go out and try different things ONE AT A TIME MAKE CHANGES and see what works for you and your car.
not trying to be a smartass Tim,and i know sometimes its hard to tell,thats just my opinion

You know one of the things guys often overlook that is just as important as the car on the track is the radio in thier hands. You can make alot of adjustments with it as well. the hardest thing to convince a newbie of is that he doesnt need 100 percent throw in his steering and your burning up throttle servos because your end point is not adjusted and the throttle servo is trying to pull past the carb stop

MIke, I know where you are coming from and I know you weren't try to be a smart-A.

Many times I have heard guys say "I asked so & so for help but he looked at me like I was stupid or he thought I was trying to steal his setup!" When in realilty the guy is looking for someone to take him by the hand & show him what is meant when someone tells him " add more wedge" "check your camber" or "how much rollout are you running"....ect.

I'm not playing stupid when I ask questions...I am stupid when it comes to these setup senerios. I have read articles til I now require glasses. Some terms come to me without problem and I can translate them to my car but some puzzle me to no end. There are new guys coming into this hobby that will need setup help in laymens(sp) terms.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why someone doesn't have a setup manual or a DVD for purchase just for 1/4 scale chassis' that has illustrations and pictures to help the racers coming in??? It's forums like this and racers like you, Will & Jeff these guys are turning to for good info. Though someone has never met or talked to you guys, they will go out and try whatever you suggest on this forum. If it's put to them plainly, they will have positive results. Sorry for the misunderstanding in my first post.
The thing is i could give you my exact setup and you may hate it. you could whip my butt in a race with your car and if i tried to drive it i would be a half a second off your lap times. it all takes practice and personal preference, some like tight others like loose. just got to go out and try different things ONE AT A TIME MAKE CHANGES and see what works for you and your car.
not trying to be a smartass Tim,and i know sometimes its hard to tell,thats just my opinion

no misunderstanding and your right now that i have thought about it was trying to have to much fun at wills expese and i got carried away with it. i know one of the things i have the most problems wrapping my brain around is castor. But for the reasons i posted earlier if i could or anyone for that matter make a dvd or write a book on setup we could retire if it worked like that. Practice and talking to your local racers and trying out the things they tell you and the info we get here may or may not work. the problem is we all dont run the same shocks or same stagger or same chassis or on the same track and so on. So we just have to try these things out and add a little to them or take a little out. The main thing though is win or lose did you have a good time while you were doing it. cause none of us are making money doing this but Man is it fun!

signed
AN ADDICT

Originally Posted by Tim Mc
I cannot for the life of me figure out why QSAC doesn't have a setup manual or a DVD for purchase that has illustrations and pictures to help the racers coming in??? I guess their to busy with other issues? They don't care about the local racing scene so it's forums like this and racers like you, Will & Jeff these guys are turning to for good info.


Tim, I'm sure you really didn't mean that, but just in case you didn't know. All QSAC officials donate their time, money and effort to the making the hobby better for everyone. There are more things than you or I know that they have to deal with.

That being said, I'd be happy to create a "Tech Tips" webpage. This is my 3rd year in 1/4 scale so I don't know that I would be a good person to write a tech manual, however if anyone would like to put something together, I'd post it. I'm sure the newbies would appreciate your effort and maybe some of the wall buster old guys like myself would too.

Also this is my first year being the QSAC webmaster, and I am always looking to help however I can. Trying to keep people interested in the website and QSAC is a bit time consuming, not to mention that I am working two jobs as well as being the QSAC and GLQSR webmaster.

Scott George does the newsletter and would love it if people would take pictures, or write stuff about the local as well as the NCS races and send it in. This would all help the cause, don't you think?

Oops, after reading my post again this morning, that did sound a little harsh. Let me rephrase my comment. QSAC doesn't have time or the intent to be involved locally, just nationally. I had NO intent on my part of discrediting QSAC for its efforts. I apologize if anyone took it that way & will correct my previous post.

Jim, you do a fine job with the website. You have answered many questions and have directed racers on many occasions to help information.

Where my thoughts for a manual, tech book or DVD come from was about five years ago there was talk of something being put out by QSAC. Maybe it was just someone talking on the local level but it excited several of us new to 1/4 scale guys. The idea of information with illustrations and pictures of setting up an actual 1/4 scale chassis would be worth its weight in gold to a new racer. Maybe QSAC and the Mfgs could collaborate on a future venture to come up with such?

Keep up the good work!



Tim, I'm sure you really didn't mean that, but just in case you didn't know. All QSAC officials donate their time, money and effort to the making the hobby better for everyone. There are more things than you or I know that they have to deal with.

......

Going back and looking at some of my own notes that I have collected, I realized that Jim @ Pro1 offers setup illustrations on his website for download. Tho it does display a Pro1 chassis, his information will work on others. I'm going to add to his provided information some of the information several racers here have given. I may be able to create my own manual for personal use?!! Here is the link for the downlaod... http://www.pro1z.com/2004_Pro1_Manual.pdf

The thing is i could give you my exact setup and you may hate it. you could whip my butt in a race with your car and if i tried to drive it i would be a half a second off your lap times. it all takes practice and personal preference, some like tight others like loose. just got to go out and try different things ONE AT A TIME MAKE CHANGES and see what works for you and your car.
not trying to be a smartass Tim,and i know sometimes its hard to tell,thats just my opinion

Ain't it the truth. That's the exact truth. Everyone is different when it comes to their driving style. I have helped a friend of mine better his driving but I can't seem to do what I tell him. The best thing I have found about 1/4 scale is that most racers are willing to help someone that is new or struggling. Theory is that if you help him he will be less likley to be a hazzard on the track. Nothing is more frustrating or dangerous as an ill handing car that is constantly spinng out. :wave:

Oops, after reading my post again this morning, that did sound a little harsh. Let me rephrase my comment. QSAC doesn't have time or the intent to be involved locally, just nationally. I had NO intent on my part of discrediting QSAC for its efforts. I apologize if anyone took it that way & will correct my previous post.

Tim:
I beg to differ with this statement. Although QSAC is a national organization the focus is on providing a stable enviroment for local racing. True the national races do get alot of attention but that is because the local clubs and racers do not generate things to print for the newsletter. The most important thing is that you have a rules package that all local clubs can use. This way if you are able to travel from one track to another you know that your car will be legal for the class from one track to another. Most local clubs follow QSAC rules and guide lines. Also through QSAC these local clubs can be sanctioned or insured. To say that QSAC does not care about the local club is in error. I am a QSAC official and the local racing is the heart of QSAC in my opinion.
Not meaning topick on, ya just remember that ALL qsac officials donate their time and yes money to better the organization. Also remember that QSAC is NOT the officials but ALL of its members.

Tim,

No problem. I think it is a great idea and I have thought of doing something along those lines also. Maybe during the winter months, take and document one thing at a time. For example, How to tune a carburetor, from start to finish. I think Randy Brown is one of the better guys for that, I'm trying to learn from him and I'd like to make a document on what to do if you have trouble with a carb.

One thing is, as i have learned from Randy is that if your carb seems to get out of tune all the time, and the car will not stay running, spray some carb cleaner in the Crank bearing and see if it kills the motor. "Yes I did say crank bearing". If it dies, the crank seal is bad and not a problem with the carb.

There are several things that can be done with that, like illustrations and "what if" senarios... I'd love to get the racers all involved and compile what i can in to one webpage for all to use...

You guys make up the club, I'm willing to do my part, but It'll never happen unless we all contribute. For those that want to keep their secrets, that's fine too, but don't complain when someone takes you out because of an ill handling car...

I recently stumbled on a site that you fellas may or may not know about. It has a wealth of information on set up and being a newbie, I thought it was great info. it is, www.1-4scale.com hope this will help

Ain't it the truth. That's the exact truth. Everyone is different when it comes to their driving style. I have helped a friend of mine better his driving but I can't seem to do what I tell him. The best thing I have found about 1/4 scale is that most racers are willing to help someone that is new or struggling. Theory is that if you help him he will be less likley to be a hazzard on the track. Nothing is more frustrating or dangerous as an ill handing car that is constantly spinng out. :wave:
Fred you are so right when i first got started i held everthing close to the vest and then when someone elses ill handling car started costing me money and work to fix my own you suddenly realise that helping others keep thier cars going forward in a straight line makes them more fun to race with and more competitive, and gives everyone a better chance to win and finish the race in one piece! You dont have to win every race to have fun just need to be compitative with a car that handles well for you and the wins will follow.
i watched Will and Brandon from alabama last year at the final showdown help out a new local racer with an ill handling car,they didnt know the guy but they knew he needed help and in the end would help them also.
i think that is one of the things that has made our club so succesful we have a core group of guys that will help anybody figure out what thier car needs and help them do it and or fix it. Racing here is basicly an all day event if start time is 3pm we may not start until 5 trying to give guys more time to get thier cars fixed or extra time to get to the track from work so they can be able to race. Had an owner that would give you the shirt off his back or a part off his car if he thought it would help you go faster

I dont think that rear steer or even rear roll steer will occur in our type independent rear suspension,these cars are limited to one arc as the arm travels from fully extended shock to fully compressed,though you can make rear camber gain with the top links. In a solid rear axel type rear suspension REAR steer is obtained by simply shortening or lengthening your attaching arms on one side or the other to get your desired amount of rear steer,,ROLL steer is obtained by changing the angle of your lower links,,one side having more or less angle from your rear axel to you chassis, this is done so that during chassis roll one link will pull the axel in(towards the front) and the other side will push it out (toward the rear) making the rear steer as the chassis rolls and the links follow arcs with different centers,but this is all an effect with a solid axel. I did mess around with making 2 1/2 inch slotted rear trailing arm mounts on one of my own 1/4 scale chassis so I could make drastic changes in trailing arm arcs all I really achieved was that I could make the wheelbase change with suspension travel on the right side of the car,the left side was limited because of the drive belt,this wasnt very useful for anything that I found in changing the cars feel in a positive way,,though its probably not cost effective for the few mfgs out there what I would like to see is an independent rear suspension that has lower h arms with a top link,drives from the center and is efficiant as a single belt drive!!I Heck if I had more time and a place to race it I would build one myself!

I dont think that rear steer or even rear roll steer will occur in our type independent rear suspension,these cars are limited to one arc as the arm travels from fully extended shock to fully compressed,though you can make rear camber gain with the top links. In a solid rear axel type rear suspension REAR steer is obtained by simply shortening or lengthening your attaching arms on one side or the other to get your desired amount of rear steer,,ROLL steer is obtained by changing the angle of your lower links,,one side having more or less angle from your rear axel to you chassis, this is done so that during chassis roll one link will pull the axel in(towards the front) and the other side will push it out (toward the rear) making the rear steer as the chassis rolls and the links follow arcs with different centers,but this is all an effect with a solid axel. I did mess around with making 2 1/2 inch slotted rear trailing arm mounts on one of my own 1/4 scale chassis so I could make drastic changes in trailing arm arcs all I really achieved was that I could make the wheelbase change with suspension travel on the right side of the car,the left side was limited because of the drive belt,this wasnt very useful for anything that I found in changing the cars feel in a positive way,,though its probably not cost effective for the few mfgs out there what I would like to see is an independent rear suspension that has lower h arms with a top link,drives from the center and is efficiant as a single belt drive!!I Heck if I had more time and a place to race it I would build one myself!
Not sure what car mfg. you race.If a WCM why cant you make you a frame that you could use.The front arms assembly of the WCM and put it on the back for testing.
For the rear steer which tire should be ahead of the other?The inside (the drive side) or the outside. Just curious.
The center drive:That might cause a problem.Where would the shock mount on the arm?Dogbone is in the way, or would it.
Gears i have not talked with Bob on them yet.They would not have to as big in dia..Smaller gears will save time in making them.Also cost of material could be lower.
I think it would have to a be a few years.To make sure everyone had time to switch over.Not only the Mfgs but the members.Everone has money tied up into the gear sets they have.So it would hurt the members .Not good for the hobby.

It seems to me an a-arm or an h-arm. Would be cheaper to make. Than the bearing block and trailing arms.If it cost 20.00 each for the trailing arm and block.Then 18.00 for a-arms to make.Just using the numbers for the point.How much can be saved? When you double up your a-arms. We all know when you make more of one product.The price will down.

Then the top link could be a track bar.With the top link as a track bar.How much more camber can one put into the car.So we only need 2 track bars instead of 4.Plus 4 less heim joints.
Now we do the same for the front.Instead of a half of turn of the heim.How much more camber adjustment will one have.For the guys who know thier stuff great.The new guys unless they get help will be lossed.Not good for the growth of the hobby.

Just my 2 cents
ED