First of all just wanted to say hello to everyone. I am new to this forum but not to slot cars. I am the manager of a slot car center in Eden, NC at the Eden Mall which was only 1/24 scale but due to my love of HO racing I built a 71' maxtrax scorpion layout but longer, 20 x 4". It is a four lane with Astron 0-32V 30amp power supply. I also built a 1/4 mile drag with the same type of track and power supply.

Anyway, at this point we only run box stock cars with silicone tires. For the Tomy and tyco cars we have a .432 min. dia rule to keep it fair. Most cars are at .434 dia.

I think I made a mistake, I allowed SRT to run against the Super G+ and they are running faster lap times. A matter of fact, I have a records board and the SRT has all the records. When I check down force it appears that the Super G has more but the SRT motor seems to be the differance. The Super G is allowed the turbo 22T crown and of coarse the turbo hubs on the rear.

Any thoughts here?

Thanks!!!

the arms in the SG+ and the SRT are pretty much the same. if you take the arm out of the can in the SRT you can use it in a super G+, and you can put a super G+ arm in an SRT can, but its a pain.

the super G+ has poly mags, but the SRT has neo mags. the super G mags are bigger. SRT/Turbo stock tires are 0.458, if your running lower thats bringing those neos closer to the rails and that might be giving the SRTs the edge in cornering.

have you played with the timing of the super G end bell?

You need to raise the SRT up.Have you tried the Super 3s yet?

raise up the sg+, too much grip on the track. It is slowing the car down.

I would expect the SRT to win unless you allow the SGP to run lower tires than the SRT, or just let darwinism do its thing. The Mega-G will potentially beat both of them, racing was ever thus.

The SRT should naturally beat the SG+ in stock-type hardbody racing. It has larger motor mags and the SRT's neo traction mags are much stronger than the light polymers of the SG+. About the only way I'd see a SG+ win is if it was raced by a very good driver vs an SRT raced by a bad driver. The potential will always favor the SRT by design, though. I'd run the cars separate. We race just about every HO car under the sun but the basis for any class is always motors and mags.

Not only does it create a fair race, it promotes the hobby by giving people incentive to buy more cars. :thumbsup:

The SRT is heavy.In all out box stock racing the Super G
is faster.On routed tracks a properly setup Lifelike T-chassis
car will beat them both.The SRT suffers from the heavy can
motor package just like the Marchon,Hornby,and Artin cars do.

The SRT chassis is only 8 tenths of a gram (+/-) heavier with both cars using an SRT rear setup. Setting up the scale to measure downforce, the SRT's neo traction mags are a whopping 2.5+ times stronger than the G's light polymers, and the residual flux effectively gives them a field easily as long as a SG+ mag. Even the motor mags are providing forward downforce 50% stronger than the SG+ motor mags. While the Super G might get off the line a little quicker, it's usually all over after the first turn when comparing the two. Racing the cars together is like inviting Nascar teams to run their cars with the local dirt guys, IMHO.

I would be very suprised to see a race with two equal drivers where the SRT would lose. Even on our large UK tracks, where a Neo car would be penalised on the straights more, it does not happen, although ultimate pace of both would be very even.

In our experience a Life-Like T canes them both, although it has absolutely no leeway handling wise as the mags are small.

We lower our G+s down to .422 rear tires and .340 front tires.
It puts the magnets right on the track.The SRT drags it chassis
before it can get real low.The Ferrari Daytona fits nice and low
on the G+ and has been hard to beat in our club in box stock.
When we run F1 bodies the bodies for the G are a little lower and
lighter also.

Hey all, hey tjettim, I have .442 wizzard tires and a front end with .350 fronts, but they are to low, how do you use .340 fronts? Do I have to modify the pick up shoe holder some how?

The pickup shoe hangers have to be bent backward and flatened,
the shoes have to be pressed flat or use a BSRT shoe,depends on your
rules.Give the endbell a monster brush tweek,and a SG will realy scream.
The latest G3 hangers and shoes work great if legal in your club.Ream
the motor bushings to .605 or .610 and make sure the axles move side
to side freely.

Slip-ons that mount at .422? Who makes them? They'd have to pretty much be like rubber bands on Tomy wheels.

I'm surprised at the consensus here because I've seen the opposite, SG+ cars dominating SRTs quite handily. I guess it depends on the track. The first track I raced these head to head was a custom routed track with rails that were fairly low, probably around 0.012" on average. If a SG+ and SRT went into a corner together on the hairy edge of what the SG+ could handle there would be a thump as the SRT rolled over and slammed the wall. The track we're currently using is exactly the opposite, very heavy downforce rails and the situation is better for the SRT but the SG+ is still the dominant force with the right tires. In fact, on a very high downforce track, say with tie wire or welding wire rails, the LL/Rokar M-cars can be the hot ticket, besting the Tomy cars on several occasions, especially when lugging around one of the smaller LL bodies like the stubby little T-Bird stocker. (Datsun and Porsche bodies are not allowed.)

If allowed to deviate from stock, I always run either a 7/22 or 7/23 gear ratio in these cars which I feel is a much better fit than the stock 7/25 gear ratio.

I should take another look at the SRT. The roll/thump maneuver on the low downforce track turned me off from using them, but I have noticed the GT40 equipped SRTs are running very strong of late. We run stock tires and the SG+ rear tires are junk unless you grind them down so they run flat across the contact patch. Otherwise they really hold back the car.

When I do a simple drop test with the same hard bodies on the cars and .434 outside dia. tires the SRT comes off the track first.
It seems to me the SRT can motor is better aligned and as one person said alittle more motor mag. size is the main difference for it doing so good on our track which is a 20' x 4" scorpion made out of MaxTrax.

There may be a point on having to much down force for the G+ which could be slowing it down some on those long straights too. I haven't tried larger tires yet.

We allow the BSRT tires and flanged rims.We used to use
Wizzard Low Lows on Tomy wheels or the BSRT tires
ground to size.An endbell tweek for more brush tension
is highly recommended.Run the endbell in the advanced
timing position,an option the SRT does not have.

We sell the Super Tires size .422 which comes out close to .434 on the turbo rims.
I do need to work with the Super G+ some such as the brushes and timing along with .422 compared to .426 tires on the turbo rims.
We do gear the car to 7-22 using the turbo gears.

I should take another look at the SRT.

Honestly, I think that's hints to part of the problem. I will even admit to being biased towards the SG+ until the GT40's came out. Then we started really putting some serious laps on the cars. I've turned around since and am convinced that out of the box with slip-ons the SRT will out-handle the SG+, in fact due to this conversation I've spent the last three nights trying to prove otherwise and the only thing happening is the SRT is getting better. Here's what I've got so far:

First, to put lap times in a "pro" perspective (I hate using that term in HO racing):

Rich Schmidt, currently one of the winningest HO racers on the East Coast if not nationwide, holds the ceramic SS record on my Tomy track with a Pro-Stock Wizzard Storm in the white (2nd) lane, that record is 4.121. his average speed with the car was 4.3 - 4.4. He traveled three times to set the car up to get to that point, spending alot of time on the phone with Bob Lincoln discussing details as he was practicing. My own record with my T1 SS is 4.483 on that lane.

Getting to the SRT and SG+, starting Saturday night I broke out an SRT and a SG+ that's had the endbell tweaked. All comparisons are without bodies to keep that variable out, all parts were box stock except for an SRT axle in the SG+. Here's what I got after about 100 laps with each car.:

Super G+:
- Weight: 16.1 grams
- Rear Tires: .430 mounted
- Best Lap: 5.135

SRT:
- Weight: 16.7 grams
- Rear Tires: .436 mounted
- Hot Lap: 4.821

Sunday night, tried again. Dropped the SG+ to .426 rears which but the car started dragging and lost speed, unable to break 5.2. Heat was probably not helping due to the lower tires. Went back to .430 and could hit but not break the 5.1 barrier.

Threw an AW SIII in the mix, box stock with .470 rear tire height, hot lap of 5.022 inside of 10 laps. Weight: 16.2 grams

Monday night, had to give it another go, putting almost the entire time into the SG+. By advancing the timing it got better with a hot lap of 4.894. Close, but it was just not gonna catch the SRT's times.

The most important number through all the testing was consistency. The Super G averaged at 5.1 with the timing advanced. And keeping it there was a struggle as to get those times the car was skimming in the corners (6" outside lane).

Broke out the SRT and for kicks raised it up to .440 rears. Wow! The SG+ times were still on the PC, the third lap with the SRT the hot lap beep goes off...then again, and again...every time for sixth laps, when I looked the SRT was at 4.727. With 50 laps it averaged mid 4.8's, not a bit of heat, nothing.


With all this time and the numbers, including the ceramic SS numbers for reference, I'm convinced that the SRT can outrun the Super G. This is not to say the SG+ is by any means a poor performer, it's an awesome car, but I think the SRT's design gives it the consistency edge. By applying the same endbell tweaks to the SRT, the potential for an even greater performance gap is there. But, I also think this edge (neo mags) makes it unfair to run the two in the same class.

The reason I referenced the Strorm numbers, BTW, is this. If the SG+ were any faster, it'd pretty much make the ceramic SS cars, notably the G3R (avg hot laps 4.4-4.5 in the hands of HOPRA racers on my track) irrelevant.

Interesting-thats some good reading Gene!!! Thanks!!!:)

I've been using SRTs for years as the chassis of choice for certain AFX/XT bodies that mount up much better on the SRT/Turbo versus the AFX or XT chassis. Buds used to sell these for around $10 each but they have gone up a bit of late.

The JL/XT bodies that look much better on the Turbo/SRT versus their original chassis include the 'Cuda, Javelin, Buick Grand Sport, as well as the latest AW 71 Chargers, Charger Daytonas, and GTXs. The Javelins and 'Cudas do take on a more aggressive nose down stance with a Turbo or SRT chassis so it may be a matter of preference. However, If you want to drastically improve how the AW GTX, 71 Chargers, and Charger Daytonas look, try mounting them on a Turbo/SRT chassis.

And now we know they are not just good looking, but also fast.

Anytime RiderZ :thumbsup:
Tonight I was working on a Fray build, but I heard those two exchanging words in my box so I had to break 'em out for a few laps. The SG+ still hovered around 5.1 with a 5.098 hot lap, the SRT just loves cruising at 4.8 and hit 4.646 hot lap. Actually, I think the brushes are finally breaking in cuz it was hitting 4.6-4.7 alot.

I should note that these are both exceptional examples of these great chassis. I have others of both that are a half second to a second slower in their respective class, though the consistancy margin is still favoring the SRT by a long shot. Both are a lot of fun to race, though the SRT becomes a little less challenging at lower speeds.

My track was designed to both take advantage of speed while seriously testing handling and driving skill, IMHO it does this job very well and is a great test course:

http://images.yuku.com/image/gif/c4b35c33453f72c1f8ebc5ab9029255bae6a9a0.gif

As soon as Racemasters gets the white GT40's out, I'll continue testing these two with identical bodies and see what happens. :)

lol That reminds me AFXToo, in our last SRT race, amid a field of mostly GT40's, the winner by a mile ran a JL #30 Roadrunner body cuz he didn't want to mess up his GT40. :freak:

You guys crack me up. The SRT has been out many years and only now are you discovering how good it is!! :)

It's like that dude on another forum, you just know he has not tried running an SRT hard and fast and with some work put in.

We discovered tuning 'toy' neo cars back in 1993, and they were always hands down our quickest cars until we got our P3Es with lexan bodies on song.

You guys crack me up. The SRT has been out many years and only now are you discovering how good it is!!

Not really, much of this "lack of discovery" is driven by the fact that none of the neo magnet cars we're talking about are legal for racing in most national level racing groups. Even the SG+ is not really legal for all intent and purpose. Once you sign on for running under 'da rulz' you get locked into ceramic and polymer classes and the neo mag toy cars are not even in play.

In my house we call the shop vacuum the "super suck machine." Imagine opening your wallet, aligning the big black hose on the super suck (SS) machine with your open wallet. Turn it on. Leave it on. That's pretty much what racing ceramic SS is like with silicone-sponge tires, fancy gears, hot stock arms, fancy axles, and other fancy consumables that keep on changing, and changing for the more expensive I might add. Constant consumption of parts and money. With polymer, i.e., Mod and RO, the super suck machine is 3X the size but the ongoing costs don't seem to be quite as bad, which may be due to their much less frequent use.

But those are the national rules. At your club and with your merry racing mates you can do whatever you want to. We allowed Tycos with Phase IIs and slip-ons to run with the ceramic SS cars. The Tycos, with all of $25 sunk in them if you were wildly extravagant with silver brushes and double wound shoe springs were every bit as fast as the ceramic SS cars costing 3X-5X as much.

With all the grumblings about the Super III, if its current deficiencies and spare parts situation were improved it too could be a very cost effective race platform. It's got all the right stuff and just needs some work in a few critical areas.

Question???
I run a slot car center and have sold just as many SRT's as Super G's and don't have enought support for two differance classes for the two cars. What would be fair as far as improvements on the Super G to compete with the SRT? Maybe a ballanced arm in the Super G?

What would you say?

Thanks!!!

Make tracks so that the SRT is penalised by long straights just enough the SGP is back in play. But wait until the Mega-G is out so you can factor that in as well.

As I mentioned at the start of this post and to add some, we have a 20'x4' 71' four lane ext. scorpion layout made from Maxtrax track, which means 4 nice straightaways. It is powered by a Astron 35amp 0-32V power supply. I have track call (shut off) buttons at each driving station. We run 3 min. heats with 8 Euro rotations which means a race last 24min. We allow up to 3 track calls per heat, on your 4th one you must sit out for the time left in the heat. In other words, if you use 4 calls in less say 1 min. then you will seat out for 2min. which will kill you in a race. Teaches good driving and allows me to handle other things once the race has started. Timing and race control is by Trackmate.
Protects equipment and requires no turn marshalls at all or race director for most of the time.

This cuts down on fussing too.

This is the way I use to handle home track racing and just carried it over in my 1/24 scale commerical race tracks and now HO.

Still need some ideas on allowing the G's and SRT to run fairly on the same race. Sure down want to kick my SRT customers out if the G's or on the track or the other way around.

Thanks!!!

What about a handicap system?

BSRT and Racemasters developed the neos for the poor selling Tomy Turbo
car and made the SRT.Bsrt has neos for the G, but then it would be much
better than the SRT.The cars can be equalized by restricting the tire sizes
to influence their lap times.

Let the SG+ run the greenwire arms. :thumbsup: Alternatively, let SG+ and the SRT run any steel rear axle they want, so long as it uses either SRT or a .250 hub, slip-ons and a plastic pinion of brands that you sell at the track (tyco, tomy for example). That would free up the cars for some tuning but prevent the $$ arms race over uber parts and special tires.

I am surprised about the levels of performance you're reporting. I think the SRT is a monster and very competitive on short tracks against the SG+ with a similar body, but can't believe the SG+ won't outrun her on longer tracks. Wow.

Have you seen the "lighted Turbo GTP" cars? They're rare and heavy, but the front/rear lighted bodies will snap right onto an SRT and are screaming fun with .434 Supertire A's on there. If you had four of those, I think there would be lines for the races.

All I can say about your track and program is that it sounds great! I would love the opportunity to take my SRT Javelin or SG+ GTP cars out to a place like that. So, move on down to San Diego. Chop chop, buddy.

Ebasil,

See that Audi avatar again, did you ever ask Wahoo if they are going to re-visit that?

And being in san Diego where do you race?

Deane

I haven't asked Steve about the Audi body, but I have been noting the new chassis won't have the problem they encountered with the SG+ and that design.

Being in San Diego, I race at the Kensington Raceway, the tracks that 1/64 HO runs at the El Cajon Speedway on Saturday nights, the Big Shop epoxied Tomy track and the amazing HO Racing and Hobbies in Sorrento Valley. Oh wait. All those are gone, dried up and forgotten. We race on door tracks, and that's it now. I have two tackle boxes worth of cars that don't even get opened up, and the custom JLTO's are beaten, worn and raced. :woohoo:

I figured being in the same area as Brad Bowman, maybe you guys raced together. But the clubs are gone and he is busy routing tracks I guess.

Question???
I run a slot car center and have sold just as many SRT's as Super G's and don't have enought support for two differance classes for the two cars. What would be fair as far as improvements on the Super G to compete with the SRT? Maybe a ballanced arm in the Super G?

What would you say?

Thanks!!!

Speed shouldn't be the Super G's problem. On a Max I think it's gonna be real hard to not create a significant handicap for the SRT as those neo's are lovin' those big rails, especially the flat part of the "L" bend at the bottom of the rail, which the G ain't feeling nearly as much of.

Kinda puts a race director in a bind. Cripple the SRT so the SG+ can win, you risk losing the SRT guys. If the SG+ doesn't start winning, you risk losing those guys. That's why my opinion is to split into two classes. Explain the reasoning to the gang and remind them it will be a race of skill vs the current situation which is a race of equipment. Give 'em a month or two to procure the car they don't have, then start alternating the classes so everyone gets a shot at their favorite chassis. If it's a points series, give every racer an extra 2 points if they raced the "other" class the race before. In the long run, it'll be good for you, the racers, and the hobby in general.

:thumbsup:

Sounds like what I am going to have to do. Anyway, here is the plans to our track that I built for the race center.

Cool track :thumbsup:

Keep in mind, to keep costs down there's plenty of places on the web to buy rollers of either chassis, the guys can then use their choice of body. Seeing a growing race box is a good thing. :)

Gene, Nice track! I love the layout.. looks challenging and fun!

I agree with TjetTim.. I think the answer is to increase the SRT minimum tire size. Should give them more speed in straights and less handling in the turns.

One group I race with, we've started a hard body toy-ceramic and toy-neo classes.. The ceramic class we have some pretty good racing between the Turbos and Tycos.. the Neo class everone runs the SRT, even though a Likelike-T is allowed. We are still working on the tire size limits to keep the cars even.

-Robbie

Thanks Robbie, it's been together two years now and it is a lot of fun. :)

While I agree that raising tire height might help, again it becomes a handcaping issue. In this thread's case, the first time a now winning SRT racer loses because of a forced height increase James is gonna become a major bad guy in the eyes of the SRT racers. Personally I feel that ride height is a very personal factor that is a part of one's driving style, so you're not only handicapping the car with forced tire heights, your limiting the driver as well. This is a non-issue when chassis are all the same and/or the motor/mag setups are close to equal.

I like ceramic SS racing and the flexibility it provides, but as it was pointed out earlier it's not a cheap class and doesn't have the mass appeal of a good off the shelf hardbody class. But I don't think the mass-produced chassis are close enough in design to offer fair multi-chassis side by side racing, at least not in a way that lets driving skill become the dominant force. We've tried many times to run SG+ vs x2, the Super G's always dominate, as such there's no interest thus no point in continuing that class. I am liking that idea of Turbos/Tycos though, those are probably the best match in modern box-stock cars. :thumbsup:

The Tyco vs Turbo is a great race. I forgot to mention that we run them at 13.6v and use house parma controllers. We also run a IROC race with house tycos 440x2 with a light dirt modified body (made of paper or card-stock) and use the house parma controllers. Everyone really enjoys this race.

This is the layout we run on..
http://www.members.aol.com/eadelfin/BentLRaceway2.jpg

-Robbie

I can't see the t-chassis losing to the Srt or turbo or g unless there's some handicapp involved. What rules are there for each car and body?>

Last year we equalized the cars by requiring a minimum
body weight for each type car.Lifelike m car and Tyco-
2.5 grams,tomy g+ 3 grams,T-chassis-4 grams on routed
tracks,3 grams on plastic tracks.A SRT may need to be
around 3.5 grams.

Neo, I know the t-chassis is faster, but we have not taken the time to tune the handling. I've tried a few times, but the guide pin seems to bind a lot on our tomy layout? Also, I think at the lower voltage.. the cars could be closer to even?

We seem to run a flavor of the month body style.. Last race was Trans-Am style for the ceramic class.. and Nascar for the neo class. Next race was mentioned to be vintage Nascar (I think late 60s early 70s) for the Neo class. We currently don't have a weight minimum.. Maybe something to look at though.

-Robbie

Well my Super G+ broke the SRT coarse record this week-end. 39 Laps in 3 min. The record was 38 by a SRT and that was with 10 track calls to boot.

We are talking about box stock cars here.
Maybe the Super G+ can run with the SRT after all. My car only had flat shoes, .420 super tires on stock Turbo rims which comes up to around .434 and also the 22T Turbo crown. Body was a hard body Jag.

Also win the race too.

The reason I referenced the Strorm numbers, BTW, is this. If the SG+ were any faster, it'd pretty much make the ceramic SS cars, notably the G3R (avg hot laps 4.4-4.5 in the hands of HOPRA racers on my track) irrelevant.Maybe I should send you one of my prototype Hyper Dash Neo can motors...

Maybe I should send you one of my prototype Hyper Dash Neo can motors...

Bring it on, Dan, I'll see what it can do. :thumbsup:

I'll happily 'test' one too!

Hold on...you are in Eden? Hey man, there's a group of guys racing in NC already. Contact RawAFX, he and I both live in Winston-Salem, and we have racers spread from Charlotte to the Triangle area. In fact, we have a hardbody enduro coming up at his place in May, and the chassis choice is either G3 or SRT. Personally, I think the difference is tunability. There is not much more that can be done to adjust the SRT w/o taking the can apart, and that may/may not be legal to race. It comes pretty much maximized, except for sponge silicones there's not much more that can be adjusted. The G3, on the other hand, has much more tunability, and can be made quite fast. Not that I can drive either, but I prefer the G3.

We would be happy hose a race for you guys under your rules if you wish? I have a 71' Maxtrax. I need contact info for RawAFX since I can't find him in the member list.

Thanks!!!
SlotCarJames
Monaco Grand Prix
201 E. Meadow Road
Eden, NC 27288

I found his e-mail and sent a message out to him.
Thanks!!!

What are your days/hours? I might try to get up there. We have a race in Raleigh on Saturday. Bob is the "central nerve center" of everything, he can give you info to Lew's place if you guys want to come.

We are open on Wed & Fri from 4:00 to 9:00 and Sat from 2:00 to 9:00 and finally Sunday 2:00 to 6:00PM