How much camber gain do you run? Do you run any? What process do you use to check it's affects?

I'm just now scratching the surface learning the positives and negatives. I have overlooked camber gain on my setups to long!!!

right front left rear

ok here it is in my oppion you take track banking how smooth or bumpy see how the car gets threw the corner the most important thing there is no way to see how much camber gain you actually use do to ever track is diffrent the only way to really tell is check your tire wear but it does give you extra bite when you need it

How much camber gain do you run? Do you run any? What process do you use to check it's affects?

I'm just now scratching the surface learning the positives and negatives. I have overlooked camber gain on my setups to long!!!

First let me say these are only my thoughts on this and only on my WCM cars.
On the front end of the car the camber gain/loss is set by the chassis builder, to change the amout of gain/loss of camber you need to change the spindle hight and the mounting points of the upper control arms. On the rear end of the car you car change the gain/loss by moving the position of the camber rods on the inside mounting points. To see the affects or your gain/loss put your camber gauge against your tire or setup plate and push down on the car to see how it moves, I have found that the right front should gain camber making the car turn into the cornor better and the left front loses camber to help flatten out that tire to make it keep more contact patch on the track. I only check the gain/loss pushing on the car from the static setting because I am not worried about what happens if the car should leave the ground, meaning that it is only important what happens under compresion of the car going into a cornor. The gain/loss won't change past the static setting on the rebound off of the cornor. Pretty much the same thing in the rear of the car...
Again this is only my best guess on gain/loss!!!...

Dave D

Got to remember when changing rear bars you are also changing the rear roll center? This will affect how much bite the rear end has and how much it rolls over. High roll center rear of car stays flat and looses sidebite!

Set camber to get wear and roll center for handling.

Just my 2 cents.

Joey

most racers use more static camber to compensate for the loss of camber in the turns.but this additional static camber nibbles away at your straight line directional stability.

Camber adjustments are utilized to help maintain the maximum grip allowable from the surface of the tire through the corners of the track. Proper camber adjustments are critical in achieving maximum cornering speeds. When camber is set correctly it allows the entire surface or footprint of the tire to adhere to the track maximizing the use of the contact patch when taking. The reason camber adjustments are made, is to keep the maximum footprint of the tire on the ground while cornering as the suspension travels up and down and body roll takes place.

As the suspension goes through travel or bump in a corner, the camber changes as the body rolls. This is often called camber gain. Camber gain is the number of degrees of camber that the front wheels lose or gain from static (down the straightaway) to dynamic (in the middle of the turns). There is an optimum amount of camber gain for each of the front wheels. The amount of track banking plays an important factor in determining the best camber for your car. As the front suspension compresses, both the LF and RF tires gain more negative camber. This is undesirable and therefore the LF is setup with more positive camber to compensate for the negative camber gain that will occur entering a corner. Static RF negative camber needn’t be set as high. Excessive static camber settings at the RF, could cause the RF to be "over-cambered" due to camber gain that will occur as the suspension goes through it full course of travel.

There are several factors that determine how much camber gain occurs; unequal length upper and lower control arms, different upper and lower control arm angles, spindle heights, front roll center, the stiffness of the front springs, sway bar diameter, tire and wheel deflection. Because of all these factors, we must rely on tire temperatures to properly adjust for camber angles.

The major contributor to weight transfer is the sprung weight.

The roll center is the point that the sprung mass (at that end of the car) is rolling or pivoting about at that instant. The roll center is idealized as a pin joint (ie reacts forces but not moments).

In a cornering situation, the side force on the sprung mass is reacted by the suspension at the roll center. The weight transfer due to sprung weight(at that end of the car) is the moment due to the side forces and the distance between the cg of the sprung mass and the roll center.

Drawing freebody diagrams of the sprung mass and the suspension will show you how the roll center affects weight transfer.

Remember, you shouldn't just focus on the front and rear suspensions independently. Roll center movement not only affects traction at one end but also affects the front to rear traction balance of the car.

i got most of this information from WILL we discuss these topics almost every nite

Lookout now, that could ruin a good reading thread :)i got most of this information from WILL we discuss these topics almost every nite

i plead the 5th i have no idea what mike is talking about

hey Will tell em what you told me about front stagger!

Will is being modest now..here is what he told me

Front stagger is almost pure weight jacking. Installing a larger diameter tire on a corner on the front acts pretty much the same as moving washers.

Will can answer any of your questions on these subjects by calling him at 1 800 SETUP TIPS

Or At 1 800 Tips 4beer....lol

and dont forget about your caster

Caster is the alignment, which gives the driver more or less feel of the steering. Positive caster is used to provide directional stability and prevent wandering. Directional stability keeps the racecar traveling straight ahead with minimal steering corrections needed from the driver. Positive caster will resist steering efforts and align the wheel straight. Negative caster will have the opposite effect.

Positive caster has its advantages, but it also has a down side as well. When you turn a car left with positive caster the LF rises while the RF drops. This changes the weight on all 4 corners of the car. In effect you're taking cross weight out of the car the more you turn the wheel (taking weight off the RF and LR). The more positive the caster, the more cross weight there is being removed. The more cross weight you remove the looser the car will get. This could be used as an advantage to help free up the car in the corners only when you are turning the wheels. Positive caster will also "create" negative Camber on the outside of the front wheels as the wheels are turned. The higher the positive caster the higher the negative camber gain. Simply adjusting caster may require additional adjustments to camber, depending on the track radius and how much steering is required to negotiate a turn.

Another element that must be considered is the caster split or caster stagger, Caster stagger is simply using different caster settings on the LF wheel than the RF. When caster settings are different, your steering will tend to pull toward the side with the least amount of caster. Caster stagger is preferred because it helps the wheels to steer themselves into a corner requiring very little effort from the driver. On tracks where your only turning left, you would want a higher positive caster setting on the RF than the LF. This more positive caster on the RF will make the car pull to the left entering the turns.

So how about bump steer and it's affects???...
And how do you check and change it???...

Dave D

This thread has taken off! Lol. I think most of it was Mike talking about Will's 800 numbers!

Camber gain in quarterscales in my opinion isnt too big of a deal. Only because we dont get much suspension travel or body roll to see its effects too much. Our latemodels get up to 7" of travel so as you can imagine you can get a lot of camber gain out of 7". It makes it hard as heck to get the bump close though! Its by no means a bad thing as long as the roll centers arent compromised. Myself, I dont worry about camber gain.....I worry more about bump and roll centers....but thats just me.


Chance

I agree...anyone can to share information?

Thanks,
So how about bump steer and it's affects???...
And how do you check and change it???...

Dave D

Bump steer. can be ck'd by pushing down on chassis or lifting tire up, to see how much toe in or out you get. it can be adjusted by raising or lowering tie rod.
To much bump steer can upset the car on a rough track Bumps. Having some bump can be a good thing on corner exit on lf. It can get time consuming fiquring out just how much the car likes as well as different tracks play a big part.

I personally remove the shock and ck it thru it's whole range of travel.and adjust from there.

Ideally you should run as little bump steer as possible. Most of the tracks we see today are old and bumpy. Bump steer on these rough surfaces causes the car to be unpredictable.
Some bump out can make the car more stable on corner entry. Bump in is almost always undesirable.
Some people use small amounts of bump out to create entry stability and an Ackerman type effect in the center of the turn where as the bump setting causes the LF to turn a bit farther than the RF as the RF compresses and the LF extends.

Ideally you should run as little bump steer as possible. Most of the tracks we see today are old and bumpy. Bump steer on these rough surfaces causes the car to be unpredictable.
Some bump out can make the car more stable on corner entry. Bump in is almost always undesirable.
Some people use small amounts of bump out to create entry stability and an Ackerman type effect in the center of the turn where as the bump setting causes the LF to turn a bit farther than the RF as the RF compresses and the LF extends.


i like to put a metal stake in the infield. cut a peice of string long enough to rotate around the inner circumfrence of the track. i attach one end to the stake and the other to my car. i just hold the throttle wide open! works well even on old tires!:woohoo:

Again, i got all this information from Will's web page HOW TO SET UP YOUR BIG WHEEL.COM

i like to put a metal stake in the infield. cut a peice of string long enough to rotate around the inner circumfrence of the track. i attach one end to the stake and the other to my car. i just hold the throttle wide open! works well even on old tires!:woohoo:
which wheel do you tie it to?

which wheel do you tie it to?



i usually tie to the spark plug. you want the knot as close to center of car as possible. also works well as a safety kill switch:thumbsup:

So how about bump steer and it's affects???...
And how do you check and change it???...

Dave Dto get bump steer out of a wcm depends on what front end you have i have both-oldstyle start shimming the left front steering arm down until its gone by working the suspension up and down newstyle take the upperstandoff off of the steering block on left front

Willy has closed his .com sites

Wow Mike you single-handedly made my head hurt!

yea he is full of it LOL

Again, i got all this information from Will's web page HOW TO SET UP YOUR BIG WHEEL.COM


Great info. for sure!! :thumbsup:

Get more from cut and paste.com LOL

Bump Steer Definition: The tendency of a vehicle to suddenly veer or swerve to one side when hitting a bump or dip in the road. The condition is caused by uneven toe changes that occur as a result of the steering linkage or rack not being parallel with the road surface. This causes the wheels to change toe unevenly as the suspension undergoes jounce and rebound.

What this means is, upon hitting a bump, the wheel assembly with the outer parts of the A-arms and the end of the track rod move in arcs of different lengths. That’s OK for the A-arms since they are fastened to the chassis of the car in two places and thus simply move up and down.
But the track rod is a single point mount and is attached only to the steering box and the steering arm for that wheel assembly. So when the wheel assembly moves up and down, taking the end of the track rod with it, the effective length of the rod changes according to Pythagoris’ Theorem of right triangles (See-your old High School geometry teacher was right! There IS a real-world use for Plane Geometry!)
This change in the track rod’s effective length pulls on the steering arm as the wheel assembly moves up (and down), changing the steering angle of that wheel slightly. The driver will detect this as a "twitch" in one direction or the other, and his description of the handling will be, "The car self-steers over bumps a bit".
Bump steer is a complex function of the relative lengths of the A-arms to the steering rod, the angles they all go through when deflected, and the caster/camber angles the chassis designer built into the car. Bump steer cannot be totally eliminated, but by changing the angle of the track rod relative to the A-arms, the tendency to move the wheel assembly can be minimized.
Note that the effect on the track rod angle will be the same, whether the inboard end (the steering rack) or the outboard end (the tie-rod ball joint) is raised or lowered. Some cars are more easily corrected one way an the other, but the result is the same on the rod angle.

WOW. I am impressed, but you mentioned plane geometry. I thought we were talking about race cars. Nope I was wrong. Sorry.

I always thought Bump Steer was almost the same as Cow Tipping. If this is true, then CT is BS and really dose not affect my RC RC. For those of you that are alittle lost, that would be Remote Control Race Car...

:wave:

I'm with Brent, my head hurts...

Wow Mike you single-handedly made my head hurt!

I am am starting starting to to see see double double!!!...

DD DD
MPRNN MPRNN

Bump steer on dirt not too bad, Asphalt sportsman everything for corner speed especially on tracks where you do not lift much for the corners.

I was wishing nobody was thinking about these things.LOL:p

No ecessive toe in or out through corners = faster exit speed.

Somebody take the Steve Smith books away from Will and Sadler. LOL

Looking good Guys

:confused:Will you been holding back on telling me all these secrets.

Joey

i like it when everbody thinks im clueless and dumb bama redneck LOL

Great info. for sure!! :thumbsup:

Get more from cut and paste.com LOL
or you can get it at SUPER B.S.'er.com....LOL

Wow Mike you single-handedly made my head hurt!
trying to keep Will off balance so he gets his car all screwed up for INDY so i can beat him..LOL

i like it when everbody thinks im clueless and dumb bama redneck LOL
Will isnt really a hillbilly he just plays one on TV :woohoo:

Let's get back on topic. The thread has made for some very interesting opinions on both camber gain and bump steer.

run 30 laps temp tires inside, middle,outside...try and get with in 10 degrees temp from inside to outside..adjust camber accordingly if needed..run another 30 laps check temps again an adjust again if needed and so on..easiest way..i think

I thought Bump Steer was when you BUMP the guy in front of you and STEER under him to pass.

I thought Bump Steer was when you BUMP the guy in front of you and STEER under him to pass.


Fred what your thinking of is the Dave Pirrello BUMP & RUN!!!...

DD

I did alot of camber gain testing on a lightning chassis,, could have used any brand but I had a lightning,about the only practicle way to get camber gain on our front suspensions is to increase the angle of our upper control arms,,from spindle sloping down to connection on the chassis,,oh and of course we get camber gain when we increase caster(when the wheels are turned) but running too much caster will take away steering while in the straitaways and usually too much caster makes corner entry very darty,anyhow I made a front upper a-arm mount with a giant amout of adjustability so that I could have 0-crazy amounts of camber gain, I started at zero degree of upper arm angle and a normal amount of camber(static camber)3-5 degrees, then went out on the track and ran about 10 laps and temped my tires ,I kept making static camber adjustments until I got the temps accross the tires very close,I then measured the amount of static camber, noting that measurment I then set my static camber back to zero and began to lower my upper a-arms(at the chassis) increasing thier angle until I achived the amount of camber that I had noted gave me the best temps accross the tires,,side note:I had measured the amount of suspension travel prior to this day of testing,,the amount of a-arm angle will depend on how much suspension travel you are experiencing at your given track,,so with what I thought was the ultimate camber gain front end I went out and ran a bunch of laps and temped tires,I was able to get the temps nearly perfect inside to outside(I allways had a little hotter outside edge) the car was absolutely glued to the track it would run the bottom of the turns wide open with very little steering input (usually is the fastest way!)BUT...............it was slow overall . Having my front end with zero static camber made for some serious grip in the straits and all the camber gain gave me super grip in the turns but it was like trying to push a snow-plow,with our cars being limited in engine power I couldnt overcome the bound up feeling the car got from all the camber gain-tire grip,to be fast these cars need to be free( Run Forest Run!!) :) I ended up going back to a near stock camber gain setting,,nearly flat upper arms with 3-5 degrees static camber and it was the fastest for me,on another side note:changing upper control arm angles also raises and lowers your front roll center and that can have some strange effects on handeling,,thats another story