With the introduction of other Manufacturers inevitible, a solution for National events:

We can have class specific motors for example:

2009 Nationals
17.5 Trinity
13.5 LRP
10.5 Novak
Mod ALL Manufacturers

The motors could even be handout sealed (with a paint dot) to help stop any questions of legality and simplify tech. It will allow the multiple manufacturers to get involved but keep racers from having to buy more than (1) motor brand for a national event.

The manufacturers could rotate year to year or "bid" for the biggest class.

some ideas to ponder or add to.....

Joe Retherford

The motors could even be handout sealed (with a paint dot) to help stop any questions of legality and simplify tech.

Who's going to be PAYING for these motors?

nice idea, but that would lead to alot of class jumping from year to year.For 1 reason.youcouldnt pay me to run trinity stuff!! Their customer support is pretty much non existant.Other racers feel the same way about some of the other companies,for this reason alone the "biggest" class would change from year to year.

Who's going to be PAYING for these motors?

Well with class sponsorship the price could be low enough to make it part of the entry and you get a motor! Or we could just let a bunch of motors be ran and you would be forced to buy many motors to dyno to find the strongest brand. I like option A so I atleast know I have the same motor as the fast guys and I only need 1....seems cheaper to me!

Question, what is the problem with having more than one legal brushless motor manufacture in oval? It seem when Trinity was the only game intown for brushed motor everyone complained, now that everyone figured out the Novak Brushless motor everyone wants to ban every other new brushless motor comming out. These motors have to pass threw ROAR so they should all be on level playing ground? Right? Even NASCAR uses different engines and not the same kit engine for every car, yes they have to meet specs put doen by NASCAR but they are Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Toyata engines. If you limit motors to one manufacture you limit the development of brushless motors in the future of oval racing.

raymon you are right.let them all meet roar specs, and all run together. seperating classes by brand would just be another road block for classes that struggle as it is.like my post before said I WILL NOT run a bL class where trinity stuff is mandatory, so if it is trinity motors in the 17.5 class you could count me out. And other people are the same way with LRP or Orion, or what ever. If specs are met as far as rotor and stack length, and wind patern and wire guage then it will come down to well the new lrp motor comes with ceramic bearings or the new novak has deeper ridges for improved cooling or the new trinity(YUK) has a perfectly balanced rotor that is guaranteed to hold the highest magnetic feild possible, or the orions come with a 2 yr. warranty.so you see what I am saying, even though all the specs are met each company can come up with more selling/ marketing points to increase sales(Trinity get some REAL customer service!!), so the old having some edge sales approach would be a null arguement.

raymon you are right.let them all meet roar specs, and all run together. seperating classes by brand would just be another road block for classes that struggle as it is.like my post before said I WILL NOT run a bL class where trinity stuff is mandatory, so if it is trinity motors in the 17.5 class you could count me out. And other people are the same way with LRP or Orion, or what ever. If specs are met as far as rotor and stack length, and wind patern and wire guage then it will come down to well the new lrp motor comes with ceramic bearings or the new novak has deeper ridges for improved cooling or the new trinity(YUK) has a perfectly balanced rotor that is guaranteed to hold the highest magnetic feild possible, or the orions come with a 2 yr. warranty.so you see what I am saying, even though all the specs are met each company can come up with more selling/ marketing points to increase sales(Trinity get some REAL customer service!!), so the old having some edge sales approach would be a null arguement.


First,
I am not saying that I want 1 motor for each class for the entire season, just at National & Regional Events. This would eliminate the "funny" motors that typically only get used at the Big events.

Second,
I get that you don't like Trinity or their customer support. but would you be kind enough to stay on topic. PLEASE

thx
Joe

I really would like to see other manufactures allowed for brushless but that may be hard for others to accept. I think I did a count a few weeks ago and had 13 brands that were labeling 13.5 motors.

To stay on topic, we are talking about handout motors. If this was run-what-you-brung then anymotor that meets the rules and passed the submission is fair game for the race.

Right now most motors on the market are premium motors. Meaning these motors cost more than what a racing event would be willing to pay for a motor. Example: Novak motors run about $80 retail, for it to be a handout I would have to say $40 would be fair. Novak could provide the motor at a loss if the racing event would promote the brand. Quid-pro-quo. Racers entering the event are already going to generate a buzz about the motor. Checking forums, asking questions and trying to learn as much about the motor as possible. I used Novak as an example, but other brands could do the same by providing a handout at a fair price to racing events.

Joe I was just using my dislike for trinity to point out other racers might dislike other brands and if things, even at a large event level, were handed out like you outlined hypothetically above it may cause some people to not run a specific class.For example a guy with a novak sponsor deal would not want to get caught dead winning a race using a LRP powerplant, there fore he would stay away from the class using the LRP handouts,and probally run the class his sponsors motors were being used in, and open mod.Not trying to get off track, and definitely not saying the idea you had isnt good.It's one of the best solutions I have heard so far.heres one solution. Do an open bid to the major manufacturers. He who can provide the motors at the lowest cost wins the "account" for that event. Thats the way the rest of the world deals with product vendors, not only that, but it would keep the handout cost WAY down if the companies competed to get their product in the spotlight for that event.That way if LRP gets the account for a major event then the other companies will know that they have to drop price to the same or better if they want the spotlight in the next major event.

I got ya 420...

I like your idea for bidding on classes. "bidding" might just infact save money for racers and garnish manufacturer support!

Joe

Only problem we have with any motor right now is ROAR doesn't have any rules for the motors! Once the wire size, length and wrap is in the rules, all the motors will be close enough it will not matter! leave the rotor size for tuning say just state a max...Timing will be adjustable by the Speed control and lets race!

Once the wire size, length and wrap is in the rules, all the motors will be close enough it will not matter!

Ha yeah I've got some Reedy MVP stock motors to sell you if you think that is true.

Don't worry, Roar not going to do anything!

Jimmy,

ROAR is fully planning on setting up rules, not for 2008 because the nats are too soon, but for 2009. They are looking at 2008 as a transition year and they are going to take their time in setting up these rules and hope that they cover the correct grey areas.

I can tell you for one, there will be some classes that allow any manufacturer as long as they meet certain specs and are approved. Thats about the only thing that I know for sure.

-Adam Liehr

Jimmy are you even a member ... If so do your part and be productive instead of always dogging every thread on the internet.. All your Bitching doesnt do a damn thing ... Voice your oppinion in a better way and maybe ROAR will be more responsive.. They are working in the right direction now.. They realize there is a problem and are working on it ... Donnie Burnette is working on rebuilding the oval comittee... Me and Several others are being considered for the oval comittee to help give input from all over the country.. And try to remedy the problem .. Try and Help not Hurt the Cause.. Thanks Jeff Humpty Helms..

somebody give Humphy something for his nerves.LOL
Lee

Jimmy are you even a member ... If so do your part and be productive instead of always dogging every thread on the internet.. All your Bitching doesnt do a damn thing ... Voice your oppinion in a better way and maybe ROAR will be more responsive.. They are working in the right direction now.. They realize there is a problem and are working on it ... Donnie Burnette is working on rebuilding the oval comittee... Me and Several others are being considered for the oval comittee to help give input from all over the country.. And try to remedy the problem .. Try and Help not Hurt the Cause.. Thanks Jeff Humpty Helms..


wise words Jimmy...you should listen to them

let's get back to some ideas to HELP oval!

Joe Retherford

:wave::p:p:wave:............

Here' the deal, Let ROAR make all the rules they want but in my opinion (that is shared by a whole hell of a lot of other people) ROAR should adopt the BRL rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree that wire size and a few other issues should be addressed but as far as opening up the field to every wanna be motor manufacturer out there, I as a ROAR MEMBER VOTE NO!

I think the key word is manufacturer.Not tuner and they should all have to meet roar approval.Meaning that at the time the testing is done they must have at least 2000 of said motor on hand for sale. That would eliminate alot of the fly by night component assemblers from the picture.Just because you are buiding with approved components shouldnt mean that your motors automatically meet approval.With every different winder label should mean they need approval to be ran at roar events( or elsewhere for that matter).

Meaning that at the time the testing is done they must have at least 2000 of said motor on hand for sale.

The only problem I ever saw with this kind of rule is...if a MFG. builds a product and tries to put them on the market before they are legal...then the do NOT get approved, these products already marketed get infiltrated into a race and really screws up tech.

With so many companies going different directions w/ BL motors, and the rules for them coming in so late...it's hard to get around the confusion created by having non-approved motors already on the market.

As far as the BRL rules - while a lot of oval guys using these rules may think 'This is the way the BL rules should be' - I can understand the position of ROAR not wanting to be a ONE MFG. only organization...as a NATIONAL Organization.

(I'm just glad the BRL and deals like our series have the ability and control to set our own rules)

I see what you are saying tour, and yes shame on roar for not doing their brushless homework a little sooner than they did, thats why all the companies are headed different because no national standard was set sooner.I personally would like it if it were a novak only deal, but I know why it cant be. I know its easy to say but if the companies would just whoa up for a minute and have a group sit down with roar I am sure some common ground could be reached.

As I see it, ROAR has little choice in the direction that they will take. THEY have sit back with their “wait and see” attitude and let others set the ball in motion. If they don’t follow the BRL’s lead now, they will alienate a great percentage of the BL racers and if they don’t follow Novak’s lead with motor specs, they will make 2/3’s of the motors out their illegal.

If people have to buy all new “stuff” just to run a ROAR sanctioned race, there is no doubt that it will hurt their attendance. And if all of this “new stuff” will be illegal in the BRL then all this will cause is a real confusing mess.

They totally SHOULD use novak specs since novak has been the only major company out there working with the racers. All the others should have to jump through the hoops if the want to play ball now.It would make more sense to do things that way so only 1/3 of the current stuff is worthless if you want to run roar events. The BRL rules may not be perfect, but ithink ROAR would be silly if they didnt recognize that they work and work well, so if any thing they should at least use the current BRL rules as a starting point!

Don't worry, Roar not going to do anything!

Jimmy-- Didn't someone ever tell you not to count your chickens before your eggs hatch?

Chickens, what chickens? It's oval, oval, oval, got it? Don't worry Scott I will keep reminding you if you forget!:tongue:

Thanks for having my back buddy.

Something else that Novak did that really impressed me at the Speedway Spectacular; at the end of the A main, all the winning and TQ motors were impounded and sent back to Novak. The winner’s were given new motors supplied by Novak. No muss, no fuss and a win - win situation for all involved…..Hang on, let me check……………..No, I don’t see anyone else doing that.

Wow what a wonderfull way for novak to se what people are really doing to their motors.AND all the guys get new motors out of the deal, although I could see a couple people being peeved if they had ceramic bearings installed or something.

The only problem I ever saw with this kind of rule is...if a MFG. builds a product and tries to put them on the market before they are legal...then the do NOT get approved, these products already marketed get infiltrated into a race and really screws up tech.

With so many companies going different directions w/ BL motors, and the rules for them coming in so late...it's hard to get around the confusion created by having non-approved motors already on the market.

As far as the BRL rules - while a lot of oval guys using these rules may think 'This is the way the BL rules should be' - I can understand the position of ROAR not wanting to be a ONE MFG. only organization...as a NATIONAL Organization.

(I'm just glad the BRL and deals like our series have the ability and control to set our own rules)


Just have the submission process two-step. First submit the motor for approval. Then without changing the motor specs, manufacture the quota and distribute. Once the motors have been proven to be available for 30 days, the final approval is granted.

Was it a Novak Only motor race?

Wow what a wonderfull way for novak to se what people are really doing to their motors.AND all the guys get new motors out of the deal, although I could see a couple people being peeved if they had ceramic bearings installed or something.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood that we could not run ceramic bearings in our brushless motors.

Yes it was.

I would be pissed if someone took my motor. They may have bought 5 motors to get the best one, and then get a "dud" out of the box.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood that we could not run ceramic bearings in our brushless motors.Yeah your not supposed to , but it happens. Just look back a few pages in the swap and sell section on here and you'll find some motors for sale that even say they already have ceramics installed,so do you think it happens??yep.

The motor deal was announced repeatedly before the race started and everyone not only knew what the deal was but had the option of racing or not racing. The motors were torn down and teched and marked before you were allowed on the track, even for practice and inspected for that mark after each qualifier.


What the real problem is, is that things like this have to be done in the first place. But we are all racers and the first thing we do is look for an advantage. At least at this one particular race, they did all they could do to get control over that. And frankly, the way they did it was no different than running brushed and having your motor unwrapped at the end of the race. Either way, you lose the motor. The key thing to remember hear is that Novak stepped up with this program.

Like I said Mclin, I love the idea of the program.It sound like a pretty good solution to people looking for that edge at big races for sure.I definitely applaud novak for this!!

McLin when was it announced after all drove down to race. Glad I did not make it down.

McLin why could you not run ceramic bearings ?????

Like I said, no difference at all in this and if brushed motors were being torn down and unwrapped and then replaced. ARCOR did it all the time. I thought it was a great idea.

To my knowledge there was no rule against ceramic bearings.

McLin when was it announced after all drove down to race. Glad I did not make it down.

Something came down about a new tech procedure on March 23 and on March 25 it was posted.

http://snowbirdnationals.yuku.com/topic/1999

Flipper, what you scered of. lol Each racer had the chance to submit one motor for the race and qualifing. The motor was checked for being with-in spec from Novak and for changes to timing. The motor was then marked as a brushed hand-out would be. All the racers were informed of the impound of motor for TQ and A main winners. One of the best races I have seen and no complaints about the motor. I would bet that this will be done at the Carpet and paved nats.

Larry don't mind having my motors check and tech, I think this is a very good thing, but when they take them, this is where I have a problem-some motors don't run like others do, when you spend time and money to find good running motors,you should not have to give them up. The track better have people to tech these motors. If they don't, they don't need the race!!!

flipper don't know if you know this or not but the TQ and winning 10.5 motor was the worst motor metered all weekend.

You are right davepull. If your car is set up right, for your driving skill your motor is just part of the equation. A strong motor helps but is not necessary.

Mike recorded everones motor info. I am not sure, but he may have also sent it to Novak.
This may have been a one race deal for the the motor impoundment. It is sad that it had to come to this, but I am glade that Novak is stepping up trying to make Oval brushless a more even playing field.

That 10.5 a main was worth the trip alone.

Flipper hope to see you at Easley on the 19th.

Larry-- Will not make it that week end.

It appears inevitable that someday there will be multiple motor manufacturers for sanctioned B/L racing.

I would like to see the time between Roar approval and "eligible to race" at least 6 months from the time the motors are readily available to the public. It's my understanding the current Roar time period is 2 weeks from approval to eligible which is not near enough time.

These B/L motors have been proven to last a very long time. There’s no need for a “new and improved” every time you blink an eye. Once competing motor companies get approval, I predict that will change drastically.

Grab any motor and put it in your car, work on your chassis and let’s go racing!