from spending a lot of time in Daytona and after looking the COT over up close and seeing how well it handled on the track, I think IMHO, that qsac should have someone to start developement and testing of a rear wing similar to those used today. The concept would be similar to what is and has been used in 10th scale. It actually would be very simple in design, cheap enough to build and easy to install and the most important thing is it would keep the cars more stable as the wing could actually mount directly to the chassis like a 10th scale, be adjustable (within legal limits) and look more like what is being run by the cup cars!
Just a thought...
Any pros or cons

Rattler

Rattler: your concept is intersting for 1/4 scale to run them. I know when i race 1/10th pan cars with nascar style bodies, without that rear wing i was all over the track.........LOOOSE There is a company that makes rear wings for 1/5 Gas buggies. They come in Plastic or a nice aluminum style. As a dealer i can sell either one. Cost for the plastic ones 10.86 and the aluminum style is $72.00

They look like the 1/10th scale pan cars with the wicker bill (bi-level wing) except bigger.

Might be a hot topic in the future.

Mike
www.willmannracingproducts.com

"An amateur practices until he gets it right. A professional practices until he can't get it wrong."

Mike yea I agree it might be something to look at in the near future but plastic would probably be better over aluminum for safety reasons!
As it is now we all run a spoiler mounted to the rear deck just as the OLD cups did which adds down force to the body. Of course the body is mounted to the chassis but in my mind downforce would come into play a lot better if the NEW wing was attached directly to the chassis or better yet, the trailing arms! ;)
Anyway it goes, it would have to become approved by qsac first! Probably wouldn't hurt to do some testing!

Rattler...

direct and indirect downforce=all of us old 10th scalers played around with it on 1/4 does not matter if it is mounted to chassis or body it is still indirect downforce the best way to get to the ground would be to mount to trailing arm or axle but then the problem would be to still keep it independent if you could get past that would probly would make the car tighter and more difficult to free up but it would really plant the rear to the point were you would not lift the trigger but then the trade off would be tire wear and alot of it because those units would be digging but i would not mind for a version of the COT be made for 1/4 its kinda growing on me

Mounting it directly to each trailing arm is no big deal and that way the downforce generated from the wing is directly to the tires without going thru the suspension first. It would still be independent because most likely the wing mounts would be at the rear of each arm which don't move but ever so slightly. As for tire wear? Don't know until you try it and come up with what would work best. The tightness could be overcome easy enough by trying to adjust the wing until a good setup was achieved! I'm not implying that you put a wing on and presto it works. Like I said, allow for some testing to see how it matches up with the old. Nascar did!

The end that does not move very much in relation to the body would be the Hiem end of the arm and that would be indirect! Hooked to the bearing end of the arm would require very large holes in the body.

my 2 cents?

Joey

Why would you need large holes? All it takes is a wire size hole thru the body to hold the wing.
The wire could mount in a stansion that mounts to the trailing are JUST like a 10th scale. No different IMHO!!

wouldnt you need to run a splitter also to help maintain the balance of the car from front to rear

I don't think you would with the way the front ends are on our cars! Don't know until you start!

my oppion it sounds better on paper as far as what i have read raced 10th scale oval until last year SINCE (90) i know wing placment and how it works unless we have a rear pod like 10th scale you are pissing in the wind 10th scale runs soild axel with a rear pod with 3 shocks to control left/right/up and down not even close and no way to get it there !!!!!!!!! just my .0002 cents worth

Just a little info.

Most of the 1/10th scale cars no longer run a wing that connects to the rear-pod. They have gone to body-mount wings.

Us NP guys still run them on the pod directly.

Why not use a "wing" like the COT's that is on the body?

I will agree, the race was extremely "racey" today. Those cars could really get in there and dice it up. Looks like this year is going to be a very interesting year.

Why would you need large holes? All it takes is a wire size hole thru the body to hold the wing.
The wire could mount in a stansion that mounts to the trailing are JUST like a 10th scale. No different IMHO!!

We run a wing on the pod of our 1/10 th scale car we use a .080 wire and need about a 1 inch hole for it so it dosen't hit the body. We only mount the wing to the pod on our asphalt cars on our carpet cars we mount the wings to the rear window mount. And in some classes there are wings allowed just a spoiler. I would like to see a body mounted wing with a approved size and mounting hieght but leave the front to rear adjustable, moving the wing front to back really changes how the car works. I think we need some guys that are willing to test this concept with different angles on the rear of the wing and different size side dams. Again just my dimes worth!!!...

Dave D
MPRNN

go ahead and try i would like to see it work but don't think you can make it happen!!!!!

(QSAC's)Randy has already done some testing with a wing. As I understand, the results were positive but don't quote me on it.

From the Grid back in 2006...

#29 of 34 by Mark A (mark3) on Tue Aug 29 11:15:53 2006:

Randy is the QSAC Tech Official. He and others have done extensive
testing with the engines, plate sizes, and carbs. We want everyone to
be on an equal playing field.

Now he is playing with the wings because eventually (by 2009) all Cup
cars will have them at all races. Having used wings with 1/10 and 1/12
scale cars, I know they do help a car handle better which might be a
plus for the new guy who does not have the set up experience. It would
act as a bandaid for other set up problems. If the car is a little
loose move the wing back. It is just another tool. I do not see this
happening anytime soon in QSAC. We want the rules to stay stable from
year to year without changes.
Mark


In this thread I was basically against the idea of the wing. I have somewhat warmed up to the idea to the point of making my own wing. I have never tested it but I have been a little curious to see how it works.

until we have a body change i dont really want to go to a wing like you said bandaid for setup i like a loose car and get it wiggling thats half the fun and the fastest way around the track

Well since i love test and tune,I will make a wing and experiment. And it will be body mounted.
If the body is mounted well,it should be a real plus.Side dam's

(QSAC's)Randy has already done some testing with a wing. As I understand, the results were positive but don't quote me on it.they may have tryed a wing but not mounted the way that rattler described yes it would work if you mount it to the deck lid but on these car there is no way to mount a wing to the trailing arms and make it work that i know of maybe some people are smarter than me and also a hole the size of the wing wire that was a well thought out idea for rattler to come up with that one!!!

Well since i love test and tune,I will make a wing and experiment. And it will be body mounted.
If the body is mounted well,it should be a real plus.Side dam'sget you a couple of buds super bilevel and mount em up on standoffs and turn left!!!!:woohoo:

Uhh? You said no way then you say maybe all in one sentence. And yes, I would agree that Randy is much smarter! :thumbsup:
they may have tryed a wing but not mounted the way that rattler described yes it would work if you mount it to the deck lid but on these car there is no way to mount a wing to the trailing arms and make it work that i know of maybe some people are smarter than me and also a hole the size of the wing wire that was a well thought out idea for rattler to come up with that one!!!

I never saw the wing or heard how it mounted so to say it was or was not mounted in the same manner would be merely guessing.they may have tryed a wing but not mounted the way that rattler described yes it would work if you mount it to the deck lid but on these car there is no way to mount a wing to the trailing arms and make it work that i know of maybe some people are smarter than me and also a hole the size of the wing wire that was a well thought out idea for rattler to come up with that one!!!

Gilly you say that on these cars thereis no way to mount the wing directly to the trailing arms. I beg to differ bud! In fact, the trailing arm would be the BEST place to mount it to get a more direct or instant affect.
QSAC could mandate a rule that would limit the overall height of a wing if they allowed it to be adjustable front to rear and also allow us to to adjust the angle! The wing could be removed easy enough, to lift off the body if work is needed elsewhere by using a allen wrench driver!
Since this topic was started, I have talked this idea over with a few other 10th and 1/8 scale racers and they ALL agree that it would be a move in the right direction. As for it being a band aid? Isn't having a "max" 3 inch spoiler rule the same thing? 3 inches will stabalize the car more for beginners than say a 2 inch spoiler will for the more experienced but 2 inches will be faster if you think about it!
And Willy, with all due respect, if your running your car loose and ~wiggly~, keep it that way. I'll be there soon and show you how to get past that slipery eel! :)]

Ragttler...

Gilly you say that on these cars thereis no way to mount the wing directly to the trailing arms. I beg to differ bud! In fact, the trailing arm would be the BEST place to mount it to get a more direct or instant affect.
QSAC could mandate a rule that would limit the overall height of a wing if they allowed it to be adjustable front to rear and also allow us to to adjust the angle! The wing could be removed easy enough, to lift off the body if work is needed elsewhere by using a allen wrench driver!
Since this topic was started, I have talked this idea over with a few other 10th and 1/8 scale racers and they ALL agree that it would be a move in the right direction. As for it being a band aid? Isn't having a "max" 3 inch spoiler rule the same thing? 3 inches will stabalize the car more for beginners than say a 2 inch spoiler will for the more experienced but 2 inches will be faster if you think about it!
And Willy, with all due respect, if your running your car loose and ~wiggly~, keep it that way. I'll be there soon and show you how to get past that slipery eel! :)]

Ragttler...LOL that eel is harder to catch than you think several fished in the lagoon trying to catch it better bring 300 pound test line LOL:wave:

Uhh? You said no way then you say maybe all in one sentence. And yes, I would agree that Randy is much smarter! :thumbsup:maybe meaning that it might possibly be done but with no success holes the size of wire give me a brake and moving trailing arms that have to move separtely mounted to a wing that sounds down right stupid as most of yall have no idea how free these parts have to be to make a fast car all say is all yall have fun mounted to the body works and the other is just stupid!!!!!:woohoo:

Uhh? You said no way then you say maybe all in one sentence. And yes, I would agree that Randy is much smarter! :thumbsup:oh and as far as someone being smarter maybe so but is still can build race cars and motors that will compete on randys level so must be smarter than you pal:woohoo:

Gilly you say that on these cars thereis no way to mount the wing directly to the trailing arms. I beg to differ bud! In fact, the trailing arm would be the BEST place to mount it to get a more direct or instant affect.
QSAC could mandate a rule that would limit the overall height of a wing if they allowed it to be adjustable front to rear and also allow us to to adjust the angle! The wing could be removed easy enough, to lift off the body if work is needed elsewhere by using a allen wrench driver!
Since this topic was started, I have talked this idea over with a few other 10th and 1/8 scale racers and they ALL agree that it would be a move in the right direction. As for it being a band aid? Isn't having a "max" 3 inch spoiler rule the same thing? 3 inches will stabalize the car more for beginners than say a 2 inch spoiler will for the more experienced but 2 inches will be faster if you think about it!
And Willy, with all due respect, if your running your car loose and ~wiggly~, keep it that way. I'll be there soon and show you how to get past that slipery eel! :)]

Ragttler...all i can say is bring it a no show never wins!!!!!:woohoo:

Gilly you say that on these cars thereis no way to mount the wing directly to the trailing arms. I beg to differ bud! In fact, the trailing arm would be the BEST place to mount it to get a more direct or instant affect.
QSAC could mandate a rule that would limit the overall height of a wing if they allowed it to be adjustable front to rear and also allow us to to adjust the angle! The wing could be removed easy enough, to lift off the body if work is needed elsewhere by using a allen wrench driver!
Since this topic was started, I have talked this idea over with a few other 10th and 1/8 scale racers and they ALL agree that it would be a move in the right direction. As for it being a band aid? Isn't having a "max" 3 inch spoiler rule the same thing? 3 inches will stabalize the car more for beginners than say a 2 inch spoiler will for the more experienced but 2 inches will be faster if you think about it!
And Willy, with all due respect, if your running your car loose and ~wiggly~, keep it that way. I'll be there soon and show you how to get past that slipery eel! :)]

Ragttler...elaborate on the mounting system how you going to keep the suspension unbound and how are you going to keep the wing flat.

First of all the wing will NOT bind up the suspension! If your suspension binds, you have other problems but I can guarantee you it won't be from the wing!

As for keeping the wing flat? Why won't it be? It will be just as flat as your rear is! I think one thing you guys are thinking is, IF the trailing arms are the mounting points of the wing, that for some reason it (the wing) will be going UP and DOWN! It won't and the trailing arms Don't either! The chassis goes UP and DOWN. IF the arms were to do as you think they do, then your wheels and tires would be ON and OFF the ground and they don't! You can mount the wing on the body as we do now but I feel a better place would be the trailing arms as it would be a DIRECT or instant "hit" of down force whereas mounted on the body, the down force created by the wing or even the spoiler we use today does in deed create down force but it has to transfer first , to the body which in turn transfers thru the suspension before it even attacks the tires where it is ultimately wanted (for traction)! Mounting on directly on the trailing arms at the very rear part near the stub axle would eliminate going thru the body AND the suspension!
I hope this is clearer as it's the best way I can describe it without showing it!
Will it work? Don't know for sure but I sure would like to try it and see!

Rattler...

First of all the wing will NOT bind up the suspension! If your suspension binds, you have other problems but I can guarantee you it won't be from the wing!

As for keeping the wing flat? Why won't it be? It will be just as flat as your rear is! I think one thing you guys are thinking is, IF the trailing arms are the mounting points of the wing, that for some reason it (the wing) will be going UP and DOWN! It won't and the trailing arms Don't either! The chassis goes UP and DOWN. IF the arms were to do as you think they do, then your wheels and tires would be ON and OFF the ground and they don't! You can mount the wing on the body as we do now but I feel a better place would be the trailing arms as it would be a DIRECT or instant "hit" of down force whereas mounted on the body, the down force created by the wing or even the spoiler we use today does in deed create down force but it has to transfer first , to the body which in turn transfers thru the suspension before it even attacks the tires where it is ultimately wanted (for traction)! Mounting on directly on the trailing arms at the very rear part near the stub axle would eliminate going thru the body AND the suspension!
I hope this is clearer as it's the best way I can describe it without showing it!
Will it work? Don't know for sure but I sure would like to try it and see!

Rattler...what do we have shocks on the car for to keep tires on the ground!!! so you are basically saying that we don't have camber gain in the corner!!!!! yeah the trailing arms don't move far but if you hit a dip or bump suspension doesn't travel the same bottom line is that you can't have a part that is one piece mounted to a independent suspension if that suspension doesn't work independently then what. do this push down on the car then lean it over the tires move the suspension moves when the car rotates as it does in race setup. chassis goes down the suspension has to work!!!! don't know what kind of car you have . if this is how you think it works. to hear you tell it the chassis moves but all 4 tires stay at whatever camber you set them at all the way around the track.put a parachute on your car it will be about as effective.

Ok whatever you say but I'm thinking a little different than what you are.
Let me add to that camber gain would not affect the operation of the wing. The wing would not be mounted with solid bars but maybe some typer of wire. The body holes would be about the size of a nickel at least!
By the way, all of this I feel is good and far from STUPID so no need to get nasty!

Rattler...

Uhh? You said no way then you say maybe all in one sentence. And yes, I would agree that Randy is much smarter! :thumbsup: yall are the pros so run your ducts all over the car worry about all the bs stuff like tacs fd up wings flux capacitors and all that crap and still go slow if yall want to have stupid thoughts atleast go fast on the track till you prove me wrong it is just another idea that aint gonna work :woohoo:

Ok whatever you say but I'm thinking a little different than what you are.
Let me add to that camber gain would not affect the operation of the wing. The wing would not be mounted with solid bars but maybe some typer of wire. The body holes would be about the size of a nickel at least!
By the way, all of this I feel is good and far from STUPID so no need to get nasty!

Rattler...glad you think it is good but don't get your feelings hurt when somone makes a post we can post whatever we want so don't shoot everybody down that gives you correct answers for your stupid idea!!!

Trust me, my feelings are far from hurt because your dealing with the best of the best when it comes to slammin'!
Only thing stupid is the ONE person thinking (used loosely) that it's stupid!
I think I'll be like the rest and let you to have the stage by yourself!
Bye!

OK, take it easy guys.

The idea is not all together bad, however in 1/4 scale, the way the cars are built today, this will not work as you expect it to.

In 10th scale, the rear axel is solid and the rear pod is a single unit where the wheels do not deviate from that part of the chassis. Therefore, you can attach a wing to the pod and get a better transfer of weight to the wheels.

In 1/4 scale, this is not possible, because the wire you would have to use would be real thick to keep the wing from moving. You will also have a hard time keeping it attached to the rear suspension because of the vibration.

We will say you can get by all of that, and the vibration that will ocure, the question will be how much down force do you need, and when do you need it?

The answer I have come up with is you need more in the corners and less in the middle of the Straightaway. How to accomplish this?

A spoiler the way it is today:
The chassis will flex with the suspension as you increase your speed, the spoiler will push down on the rear of the body, and colapse the rear suspension. This removes some of the spoiler out of the wind and the downforce is reduced more than it would be if it were static.

Going into the corner, the de-acceleration will force the nose of the car down and the rear up in the wind causing more downforce than if the car was static.

In short, there would have to be a much larger change in the way the cars are made to make a wing work the way you want to attach it to the rear suspension. Would it be worth it? I don't think so. Is it possible? Yes, but to what advantige?

I have been racing 10th scale for about 20 years, and the whole wing vs spoiler has been around a long time. In my oppinion the spoiler is more realistic and cost effective to what we are doing. There are other factors too, such as the placement of the motor, eletric vs gas, and speed, and traction, and tires....

The point is, you can not compare 10th scale to 1/4 scale, when comparing car setup and suspension.

This is all just my oppinion, and I applaud your thinking outside the box. I hope this makes sence to you, and feel free to reply.

Ok whatever you say but I'm thinking a little different than what you are.
Let me add to that camber gain would not affect the operation of the wing. The wing would not be mounted with solid bars but maybe some typer of wire. The body holes would be about the size of a nickel at least!
By the way, all of this I feel is good and far from STUPID so no need to get nasty!

Rattler...here is where you started with the stupid stuff
....didn't get nasty you started the thread for pros and cons and that is exactly what you have got......

I would if you want to do personal insults you take it elsewhere. If needed I can assist with that.

What about, if testing proofs good, have the COT body and wing on the Grand National cars, just like the Sprint Cup cars and have the current bodies and spoiler on the Sportsmen cars?

Now as a person watching, I have a visual differance in the two divisions and we would look like NASCAR does.

Would that work?

I like that idea. Thats something to think about.What about, if testing proofs good, have the COT body and wing on the Grand National cars, just like the Sprint Cup cars and have the current bodies and spoiler on the Sportsmen cars?

Now as a person watching, I have a visual differance in the two divisions and we would look like NASCAR does.

Would that work?

I hate the COT's. They look retarded if you ask me! I like what we have now. I would like to see new bodies come out as far as a fusion, charger, and impala though. COT's just dont look like stock cars. I would like to see some bodies that look like short track Latemodel bodies. That would be cool!

I agree Chance. UGLY X 10 = COT. Besides the Nascar GRANDNATIONAL division cars still have spoilers!

We are working on pulling a dirt late model body:woohoo:. Hope to have it done by the dirt national race in PA.:thumbsup:

I hate the COT's. They look retarded if you ask me! I like what we have now. I would like to see new bodies come out as far as a fusion, charger, and impala though. COT's just dont look like stock cars. I would like to see some bodies that look like short track Latemodel bodies. That would be cool!

I love dirt latemodels. They look really cool. I would love to try to run a car on dirt some time. I like cars being loose! I like what we have now. Just need to get molds for chargers, fusions, and impalas. We are thinking about looking into making a charger mold and and all the stuff to pull our own bodies.


Im with you Scott! Im not sure if COT's look more like a race car or a shopping cart!

Maybe we just need to run a 12" side dam and be done with it.LOL:drunk:I love dirt latemodels. They look really cool. I would love to try to run a car on dirt some time. I like cars being loose! I like what we have now. Just need to get molds for chargers, fusions, and impalas. We are thinking about looking into making a charger mold and and all the stuff to pull our own bodies.


Im with you Scott! Im not sure if COT's look more like a race car or a shopping cart!

Guys, stop fooling around with those taxi cabs and get a real race car. You have seen them. The ones without fenders and they often have a big wing on top to keep them from flyin away. The cars where they have to be up on the wheel from the get go. All racing, no ridin around and around. Hit it and get it, git'er done so to speak......
Fred

Hey now Fred.....sprint cars are meant for the dirt! Dirt is meant for farming! j/k I want to get a sprinter....Some day when I lose my driving skill and need a big old wing to help me keep the car straight...I will get one! Lol....good times!

Hey now Fred.....sprint cars are meant for the dirt! Dirt is meant for farming! j/k I want to get a sprinter....Some day when I lose my driving skill and need a big old wing to help me keep the car straight...I will get one! Lol....good times!

Thats just around the corner my freind as a mater of a fact What is the legal size of the wing you will need HA HA Bob :thumbsup:

I dont think they make one big enough!

I wont go near that one.