Hi Guys,

This is a long one and I hope it generates some discussion and good ideas.

I've attached a picture of the layout I created on a 7.5' x 5' table. The layout is made from Mattel (Tyco) track. This is my test track until I get around to making my dream layout on a much larger table somewhere down the road. For now, I put this layout together at my parent's house so I have a track there for when I'm at their house. I can try all my experiments on this layout before I build the big one. It was made out of all kinds of material I just had lying around the house.

Because the table is fairly small and it's a four laner, I used a lot of 6" curves so I could get a lot of track onto the table without the need to go multi-level. I have yet to tack the track down or apply the cork roadbed for borders. The track is sitting on left over rug from when I carpeted my basement. The carpet definitely deadens some of the track noise.

But, getting to the point of this post. I want to get the track joints as smooth and noiseless as possible. There are four sources of joint noise that I can determine; (1) rail height differences between pieces, (2) height difference in the plastic road surface, (3) the 90 degree bend at the end of the rail and (4) misalignment of adjacent slots.

I have also noticed that not all slot widths are equal, nor is the slot width consistant within the same piece. I can see how some cars go slower around curves as the pin drags in the slot. On some pieces, I will run the Dremel through the slot and just open it up a hair.

I have already done a bit of filing of the slot joints where there were badly matched slot openings. At this point, I notice that some cars will ride around this track and make very little noise, while others slam and bang at nearly every joint. This goes across chassis types. Some T-Jets are noiseless, others bang around. Same with AFX and Tyco. Tomy cars and Lifelike seem to act consistantly on the high end of the noise scale.

I have been using the Dremel with a round (oblong actually) filing stone to grind down the insides of the slot. Because the slots on Tyco and Mattel are flared at the ends, there is sometimes a lot of work that needs to be done to get the transition between pieces to be smooth. A lot of cars seem to ride the wall of the slot (rather than the center) and will therefore follow the flare. What you then get at the joint is a car going either left or right, then hitting the slot wall on the next piece and being directed back toward the center of the slot. This is very evident the slower you go. It also happens on straights where is it very noticable if you go slow. So you need to work the flares to be as smooth as possible. I'd love to fill them in, but haven't been able to think up a workable solution --- yet.

So, to take care of issue #4, I use a Dremel and grind away. It helps a lot. You need to make the flares as gentle as possible. The sharper the angle of the flare, the more noise and bouncing around in the slot. As I mentioned in another post, I think pins are noiser and get more effected by the flares than do blades. I also find that metal pins are noiser than plastic pins.

The other three issues effect the pickup shoes. Whereas the misaligned slots will cause the guide pin to bang around, height difference will cause the car to hop and the shoes to bang into something.

Issue #1 (rail height difference) and issue #3 (90 degree bed) are a little tougher. I have been thinking about taking the Dremel with a grinding stone and filing the rails down at the ends to create a smoother transition. I would like some thoughts and suggestions on how others have handled filing the rails. Do you just do it with a hand file? How scratched does the track surface get?

I may also end up cutting off the 90 degree bend on some of the Mattel track where it seems to be fairly high. I experimented on a piece of junk track and it wasn't hard at all, and the electrical connectivity does not seem to have been effected.

The 90 degree bend in the rails (like the Z bend on Tomy track) puts the rail at a 90 degree angle to your line of travel. It is also at the same height as the rest of the rail on your piece (which may be higher or lower than the adjacent piece) and obviously higher than the road surface - this is important. If the pickup shoes are not perfectly parallel with the road surface (and I doubt they ever are), they will lean either left or right and therefore hang below the rail surface on one side. When you then come across either the 90 degree bend or a difference in the road surface between pieces, the shoes are going to slam into them creating a lot of noise.

Issue #2 (road surface height) is another tricky problem. Do you ever file down the actual road surface to get a smooth transition? I can't think of any other solution short of filling in the track joint with some kind of plastic filler and filing it smooth.

So, I am anxiously awaiting the tricks of the trade that I can apply to plastic track.

Thanks...Joe

Joe...

I have Tomy track. I am in a similar process right now, but am mostly over the hump effort wise with regards to tuning the track. There are no secrets I'm aware of and if there are don't tell me now, because I put out a lot of effort doing mine so far!!!... I'd say with the exception of removing the locking nublettes on the joining tabs and grinding down those z-bends (both done piece by piece with a Dremel prior to putting down any track)... I used sandpaper and patience (the latter has been tested). I did the job by hand, because even on low speed my Dremel seemed way overpowered. Tedious as it was, I approached each offensive area and addressed it. Medium , Fine , vaccum , wipe , test... repeat if needed. Click clacks have now become ticks here and there. I think it's a matter of tolerance. Sectional track is perfectly imperfect. Not sure it ever gets as good as we want it to get. Especially now that it's all mass produced in China (can't see that helping any). Anyhow, good luck and keep at it:thumbsup:.... nd

Joe --

Good post.

In regards to filing the rails; I've heard of people using marble from an award as a hone. No awards you want to sacrifice? Contact an award-making shop. You could either get one large enough to do just a single lane, or both lanes at once.

Better yet would be a sharpening/honing stone from an knife/outdoors shop.

I've always suspected that many cars have a tendency to 'pull' to one side or another, but that's a hard thing to test for. I'm not even aware that I've even heard anyone talking about it on any message board in any scale.

If a car consistently pulled to the right, it would find every flaw on the right side of the slot, but it would only 'notice' problems on the left side when going around a right-hand turn. A car that runs straight would randomly find problems on the right or left, depending.

It would be nice if HO scale cars used something other than a narrow pin as a guide. Something with some length and a little width would -- in theory -- handle slot issues better, but they were tried once, and we still have pins. Sigh.

And don't forget to run a powerful (neo) magnet (Radio Shack has some cheap ones) over your track a few times to pick up the metal filings after honing the rails -- otherwise the magnets in your cars will pick the filings up, and metal filings in a car are not the best thing in the world for it.

One other thought -- you might take a detailed look at a couple of track sections that have rail height issues, and try to identify the cause. Does the rail material vary in width? Is there a piece of flash in the plastic track forcing the rail up?

If a section is taller than the norm, maybe it should just be set aside. Lower than normal isn't a problem when you enter the track, but it will make the next track look like it has a height issue, too. Set the low pieces aside, too.

At the end you should have a track made up of a bunch of sections that have fewer height issues. That should make honing easier.

If you do need to use the pieces you set aside, use them in groups; try to string together a group of high rail pieces together, or use a bunch of low rails together. That should reduce the amount of honing necessary.

-- Bill

I'm not sure about the later Mattel track,but with older Tyco track,push the rails up evenly from the bottom where they are crimped,that should help with the rail filing at the joints.
My track is completely glued together using good old 2 part 5 min epoxy,and the surface joints are hand sanded smooth,took care of the little bumps that orginate at the joint,and all the flares in my corners were built up with JB Weld,then carefully sanded smooth.
I also drop wired every section,900 hrs later and no finger prints left,i swore never again,the next one's gonna be routed:hat:.
No easy way to do a smooth sectional track Joe,it's gonna be labour intensive and very time consuming to get it smooth.
Admittedly i think i went overboard,but it can be done.Mine was done,when a buddy told me i could never make a smooth sectional track,so i set out to prove him wrong,big mistake,lol.
There are rail hones out there for tracks,but i made mine using 2 small chunks of flat plastic,and a sharpening stone.
The pieces of plastic are roughly .012" thick that i used,and i glued them to the stone,you just have to rub the stone back and forth across the track joint till the plastic pieces contact the track surface,another way i've smoothed them,is to use a grinding stone in a Dremel and very carefully grind the high rail down,but if you aren't careful ,you can create a divot in the rails
Rick

Joe...

I have Tomy track. I am in a similar process right now, but am mostly over the hump effort wise with regards to tuning the track. There are no secrets I'm aware of and if there are don't tell me now, because I put out a lot of effort doing mine so far!!!...

Okay, I'll keep all my secrets to myself! LOL

I'd say with the exception of removing the locking nublettes on the joining tabs and grinding down those z-bends (both done piece by piece with a Dremel prior to putting down any track)... I used sandpaper and patience (the latter has been tested). I did the job by hand, because even on low speed my Dremel seemed way overpowered. Tedious as it was, I approached each offensive area and addressed it. Medium , Fine , vaccum , wipe , test... repeat if needed. nd

I am a little confused by what you did by hand as opposed to with a Dremel. It sounds like you did the rail grinding with a Dremel and the slot alignment with sandpaper.

Am I reading that correctly?

If so, I have found that there is quite a bit of material that needs to be ground away inside the slot, especially when you get pieces whose flares are incompatible. If you have Mattel track, you will notice the flares are not symetrical (one side flares more then the other), nor are they the same size/shape on different pieces. It's as if they were modeled by hand rather than by machine/computer. There's a bit of work required to get them to be more gradual than they are molded.

Thanks...Joe

In regards to filing the rails; I've heard of people using marble from an award as a hone. No awards you want to sacrifice? Contact an award-making shop. You could either get one large enough to do just a single lane, or both lanes at once.

Better yet would be a sharpening/honing stone from an knife/outdoors shop.

Bill,
Luckily I used to bowl when I was a kid, so I have trophies up the wazu. I tried an old marble base from a trophy I chucked away and it didn't seem to have any effect - it was too smooth. I have to look around to see if there's a sharpening stone here or just go out and get one to try out.


I've always suspected that many cars have a tendency to 'pull' to one side or another, but that's a hard thing to test for. I'm not even aware that I've even heard anyone talking about it on any message board in any scale.

If a car consistently pulled to the right, it would find every flaw on the right side of the slot, but it would only 'notice' problems on the left side when going around a right-hand turn. A car that runs straight would randomly find problems on the right or left, depending.

It would be nice if HO scale cars used something other than a narrow pin as a guide. Something with some length and a little width would -- in theory -- handle slot issues better, but they were tried once, and we still have pins. Sigh..

You are correct in that I have never seen a post reguarding cars pulling either left or right. This is probably not an issue with magnet cars since they are pretty much glued to the rails. However, it certainly seems that T-Jets and AFX will ride either the left or right wall of the slot. As I said, this is very noticable when going very slow on a straight. You can see the car following the flare out and then back in again; it really does wobble down the straights. The effect probably lessens the faster you go.

I would love to see blade style guides for T-Jets, AFX, Tyco, Tomy and Lifelike. Although they may not be good for racing or needed on routed tracks, they would probably be great for the home racer who has a plastic track. This may be something I can look into with the factory that produced our track. T-Jets may be a little tougher because I am guessing a blade pin would need to swival.

Joe

There are rail hones out there for tracks,but i made mine using 2 small chunks of flat plastic,and a sharpening stone.
The pieces of plastic are roughly .012" thick that i used,and i glued them to the stone,you just have to rub the stone back and forth across the track joint till the plastic pieces contact the track surface,another way i've smoothed them,is to use a grinding stone in a Dremel and very carefully grind the high rail down,but if you aren't careful ,you can create a divot in the rails
Rick

Rick,
Another method I saw was to glue feeler guages to the underside of a file.

In your case, wouldn't the stone be wearing down as you file the rails, while the part of the stone where you glued the plastic does not get worn? This would eventually lead to the rails getting ground down less and less (and therefore being higher and higher) the more the stone gets worn.

Joe

Over the years I've accumulated a handful of nice flat stones via X-acto knife sets in both medium and fine grit.

They are just a bit wider than the rails. On the topside I use two-sided sponge tape so my fingers can stick to the stone. This gives good control and feel when grinding along and helps keep ya on track. The added stone width allows you to move the stone after a few strokes and keeps ya from grooving the face of the stone prematurely.

To finish/buff I use some form of eraser block and hose up the duff with the shop vac.

I used all 4 sides of the stone Joe,and i only filed the rough track joints.
I tried to get them matched up as close as possible from the bottom of the track,i'm not familiar with the newer Mattel style track,so i don't know if you can match the rails from the bottom like you can on the older Tyco track
Where i had a big discrepnancy in rail heights,i used my Dremel and a grinding stone to rough them into shape,that's how i learned about the divot factor,mumble mumble curse:hat:.If you want to make it Neo magnet friendly you probably should glue the rails.

On the cars pulling right or left,unless you can find rear tires that are prefectly matched in roll distance ,the car will always try to pull towards the short tire,solid axles don't give much leeway ;)

I am a little confused by what you did by hand as opposed to with a Dremel. It sounds like you did the rail grinding with a Dremel and the slot alignment with sandpaper. Am I reading that correctly? Thanks...Joe

I didn't mean to throw even a little confusion into what is already a VERY frustrating endeavor. I have Tomy track not Mattel. I think it might be less effort intensive?... Not sure. The Dremeling prior to laying a single piece was mandatory I feel. Those Tomy locking nubs are of a size and in a location that warranted power tools and as far as the rails go, being metal, I felt they (those Z-Bends) could stand the power treatment too, so I gave them the once-over. I found the rough spots more subtle in the slot areas and at the piece to piece unions. I felt the gradual attention to each (by hand with sandpaper) was (in my situation) more prudent. I have really no extra track and if I over-zapped any slots with the dremel as I was going along I would have had to buy more. Basically I did not want to experiment with my own learning curve when it came to the smoothing the slots. I trusted more what I could feel with my fingers gradually as I went along and by testing with both a well set-up tjet and a bone stock tjet (that's all I run). Was it tedious? yes... But I was not comfortable getting into the slots with a power tool. Could I have used the Dremel? I guess so, but again that's just me choosing not to.

I don't know about you guys, but I think it's WAY overdue for somebody to produce a higher quality yet affordable HO scale track system. Funny, at Christmastime I was in a Kaybee Toys and they had a slot layout set up on the floor. It was some brand of 1/43rd right out of the box. A guy and his boy were running it. You know what?... It was pretty damn smooth and quiet. My first thought was damn.... when have I EVER seen that happen in HO scale!!! Oh well... someday I guess. :o nd

I don't know about you guys, but I think it's WAY overdue for somebody to produce a higher quality yet affordable HO scale track system. Funny, at Christmastime I was in a Kaybee Toys and they had a slot layout set up on the floor. It was some brand of 1/43rd right out of the box. A guy and his boy were running it. You know what?... It was pretty damn smooth and quiet. My first thought was damn.... when have I EVER seen that happen in HO scale!!! Oh well... someday I guess. :o nd

There are some leasons I learned from making the few pieces of track we've already done, as well as learning a lot during the time I have been building this Mattel track. While not trying to get off topic (while I get off topic), here is what I've learned.

1. This is the biggest one. There should be no noticable flare in the slot. There should only be the slightest rounding of the end of the slot so there is no sharp edge. The rounded area should be so small that a guide pin which rides the slot wall does not even notice it.

2. Eliminate all "letter" bends in the rail. This includes the Tomy Z bend and the Mattel L bend. Rail must be kept straight. The only bend in the rail should be very slight and just enough to produce tension against the rail from the adjoining piece while remaining straight.

3. Rail should be slightly rounded on the end to avoid the sharp edge.

4. The rail which extends beyond the end of the track and which mates with the adjoining piece should be tapered slightly lower in height.

5. If you really want to talk improvement, along the lines of 1/43rd track, then you need to make the rail much wider - at least as wide as the shoes - and have them join together like 1/43rd track, where one rail slips inside the other. This would then prevent the shoes from leaning either left or right as they do when riding a very thin rail. Basically, you want to shrink 1/43rd track to HO size. The Artin 1/43rd sets are so inexpensive that I have to believe this could be done quite cheaply.

6. Use better material and tighter specs when molding the track to eliminate differences in sizes due to shrinkage, etc.

7. Think about making a track which would accept a plastic sleeve that snaps inside the slot. You would run this sleeve all the way around the track, thereby making your track continuous slot. This would mean that the slot would not have to be made to real tight specs since the sleeve would provide the smoothness. The sleeve should be easily removable/reuseable.

8. Easy under-track screw conections. A no-brainer.

9. Slightly wider slot to avoid dragging of the guide pin on curves.

10. Round off the end of the plastic road surface around the rails, especially between the rails where the tires don't normally go (unless you fishtail). This should avoid the pickup shoes banging onto the track surface when they are leaning either left or right.

11. Taper the bottom of the slot near the ends. This will eliminate a sharp edge should your guide pin be very near the bottom of the slot as it passes from piece to piece.


Making track isn't cheap, as I've discovered. It would need to be done on a very large scale in order to bring the price down to where it's really affordable. While our track runs anywhere from $4-$6 a piece, you need to get the retail price down much lower than that if you want someone to build an entire layout.

Joe

I don't know about you guys, but I think it's WAY overdue for somebody to produce a higher quality yet affordable HO scale track system. Funny, at Christmastime I was in a Kaybee Toys and they had a slot layout set up on the floor. It was some brand of 1/43rd right out of the box. A guy and his boy were running it. You know what?... It was pretty damn smooth and quiet. My first thought was damn.... when have I EVER seen that happen in HO scale!!! Oh well... someday I guess. :o ndI believe it is the magnet cars that create the clickety sounds more than anything else. Sure you smooth the connections but the track is always going to make noise. That little 1/43 track has cars with virtually no downforce. And the track material itself is different.

Probably one of the best designs put into connecting plastic HO track was the original Aurora pin and joiner track. Those pins did an excellent job of aligning the 2 pieces. If someone would have carried that feature into a modern track with a better locking mechanism incorporated into it you might have the perfect sectional track. Understandably, more parts add to the production costs, but those metal pins really did the trick and were strong.

I find it funny that some of you guys get so irritated with this noise issue. It's slot cars man, they're supposed to make a little noise! :p When I go to big races on routed tracks, all they sound like are little guinea pigs squealing all over the track. "bweeeep, bweeeep, bweeeep! That's the sound of the gears. I guess if that's what you want you need to invest in a routed track. :rolleyes:

I find it funny that some of you guys get so irritated with this noise issue. It's slot cars man, they're supposed to make a little noise! :p When I go to big races on routed tracks, all they sound like are little guinea pigs squealing all over the track. "bweeeep, bweeeep, bweeeep! That's the sound of the gears. I guess if that's what you want you need to invest in a routed track. :rolleyes:

I hear ya. If they sounded more like Daytona will this coming Sunday, they'd be perfect :p

Joe don't get me wrong either- I like reading your in depth studies about tuning plastic track and admire your desire to produce better HO track for the hobby. I should send you some of my 17 year old Tyco track to study and see the effects of thousands and thousands of laps. I have guide pins that are literally thin blades on some of my older cars. I wonder how much of the slot is worn away in corners. The texture and connection lettering on the surface of most of my turns is worn away completely from tires. Occasionally we sand the plastic in the direction of the cars to give a little "bite" back. I also want to measure the rail height with a micrometer or dial indicator to see what is left. I have been told that new Tyco track is @ .015 rail height. I bought a BSRT 910 G3R that was set up for a Brystal. I ran it on my track after the race and there were barely marks on the mags from my rails. I believe Brystal tracks have rail heights of @ .011-.012 so there is some wear but not what you'd expect after so many years of use. :cool:

-Scott V
:dude:

I hear ya. If they sounded more like Daytona will this coming Sunday, they'd be perfect :p


Could you imagine? :woohoo: rr

Surround sound baby! :woohoo:

... and back to my original point that sectional track probably can never get as good as we want it to. Meaning lots of guys really like the idea of routed, smooth, quiet, etc. They just can't justify the expense. Us sectional guys always hear about all the virtues of routed track, once you try it you'll never go back, yada-yada-yada, blah-blah-blah. It's just human nature to want the next best thing when you see it dangling out there, or to take a small step and emulate it. Especially if it buys you better performance.

As far as the noise issue goes, from my experience I find many noises can be made to go away, or at least be diminished. I don't expect all of them to go away, but if I finds'em... I kills'em. Those noises are usually where my tjets are hopping out of the slot or where my pick-ups are locking-out on the rail z-bends on the curves. From my view this is all routine maintenance. Quieter is just a benefit... to me it's almost more like gravy on top of the performance. nd

I had an idea years ago to smooth out connections when my track was new: I used a fat deep well socket and rolled it over the connection a number of times and it helped until you moved it. The noise difference was noticable. This only seemed to work when the track was new. It seemed to just go back where it was after it got older and more worn in. Another funny anomoly that happens is if you run in the same direction all the time the track will be smoother. If you run the other way it is much more clicky. The track seems to wear in after a while and settle in a smooth way. I find that interesting.

Obviously for smoothness, nothing beats a routed track - or my ultimate favorite, the stainless steel routed track by slotmichl.

But sectional track has it's place, especially for guys who want to tweak or completely overhaul their layout every so often. Unless I had one of the incredibly marvelous routed layouts I have seen pictures of, I really don't know if I'd want the same layout for years.

It's not just the noise I want to eliminate; I realize there is always going to be some noise generated at the track joints. I want to eliminate/reduce the wear and tear on car parts, the bouncing around in the slot and the random deslot. And the dreaded "rejection" - the car bouncing backwards out of the slot.

It just seems to me that there are some simple design changes which could make plastic track much better right out of the box. As to the Aurora L&J track being smooth, I never found that to be the case. However, the good thing about L&J track is that there were no flares in the slot.

Just as an aside. I have my layout on a carpet, which is over plywood. The carpet deadens sound a lot. Today I tacked down a couple curves so they would stay nested. The amount of noise that then got transferred down to the plywood for those couple pieces of track was incredible; it was like they were back on bare plywood.

I'm going to be looking at trying to get clips which I can use under the track to join two side-by-side pieces together. If I'm successful, I'll be able to connect nested curves together without the need to tack them down.

Joe

Instead of tacking it down,what about trying silicone caulking or some such product Joe.
I agree with Scott,put a bunch of wear on the track and it usually gets quieter

Instead of tacking it down,what about trying silicone caulking or some such product Joe.


I'm guessing doing that would pretty much make a mess on the carpet and make changing the layout pretty much out of the question - at least while still using the same carpet. Same with hot glue, although I can experiment to see how that releases from a carpet.

The track lies pretty well just sitting on top of the carpet - good enough for me anyway. The only real issue I see is nested curves; trying to get them tight and then prevent them from moving.

Another good test, I think, to isolate joint noise is to use a Microscalextric chassis. These use braid rather than hard pickups, therefore when you hear nose at the joints, you can pretty much rule out rail noise and concentrate on the slot.

I went out today looking for small "U" clips which could be used under the track to clip two pieces of track together side-by-side; especially nested curves. I visited a train shop and hardware store. Neither had anything that even came close. If there are any ideas out there, I'd like to hear them.

Would such clips be useful in general? Is there a need for clips like this to be produced?

Joe

Joe --

I dug around McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/), and it looks like they have some small spring steel metal nuts that might work.

Look for "u-style clip-on nuts"

I don't know if they are what you are looking for, but it's as close I could find...

As for clips from Joe ---

I think they sound like they would be worthwhile, but since I'm a Tomy/AFX track person, I would like to know how they handle the gaps between the tracks on AFX turns...

-- Bill

This is a good idea from SwamperGene.


http://slotcars.yuku.com/topic/485/t/Track-Clips-The-Cheap-Way.html

This is a good idea from SwamperGene.


http://slotcars.yuku.com/topic/485/t/Track-Clips-The-Cheap-Way.html

Ogre,
Thanks for that link. I went out yesterday looking for something that would work, including asking for thin metal stock that I could easily cut and bend into a "U" shape. It would need to have the spring tension to act like a spring clip. I only checked the train store and a hardware store, so maybe I need to check out either Lowe's or Home Depot. Don't know where else to look.

Although I might be able to use the picture frame hangers as Gene suggests, my guess is that the clips he made were for joining track pieces together in-line (if the tabs break off) rather than side-to-side. The bend for going side-to-side is much tighter than that required to go in-line. I have a number of AFX track repair clips and the width of the "U" is too wide. But, a good tip none the less.

Joe

Not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here Joe,but why not physically screw the corners to each other,if you can't find a suitable clip.
Small flathead sheetmetal screws through the plastic edges of the track would hold your inner and outer corners to each other,and can be used to pull crooked straights together,and would still leave you the option of changing your layout down the road.
You could also glue the individual corners to each other,a 9" corner would need two 12" corners screwed or glued to it and so on down the road,this would give you a short 4 lane corner that could be used in another layout.
Me thinks you're looking for an easy way out,and there ain't many options on easy if you want smooth:wave:
Rick

Ogre,
I have a number of AFX track repair clips and the width of the "U" is too wide. But, a good tip none the less.Hey, Joe, if the clip's too wide, why not just glue a small rectangle or two of sheet plastic to the inside of the track-end as a shim, then use the AFX clips. A little fiddly, but cheap, especially if you can mine your old VHS tape collection for enough suitable black polystyrene. (Remember, the trick to cutting sheet styrene is to score it, then snap off the piece at the score.)

-- D

Not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here Joe,but why not physically screw the corners to each other,if you can't find a suitable clip.
Small flathead sheetmetal screws through the plastic edges of the track would hold your inner and outer corners to each other,and can be used to pull crooked straights together,and would still leave you the option of changing your layout down the road.

Rick

Rick,
I'm actually trying to accomplish a number of unrelated things, all in an effort to make plastic track as fun as possible without going crazy.

The side-by-side clips would be useful for creating multi-lane layouts (4 or more lanes) when you want to keep the track side by side without the need to screw, nail or glue it down; especially for getting curves nested as tightly as possible. After nailing a couple pieces down and hearing how much the noise level went up, I eliminated that as an option on this table. On another table with a better sound absorbing base board, it would be an option.

I thought about screwing the track together, but that's also something I'd like to avoid.

Dslot,
Interesting thought on using shims. I wouldn't even need to use plastic, maybe just some thin wooden shims to take up the gap. It's a thought.


On another topic, I experimented today with trying to get rid of the flares in the slot. I took a couple pieces of 9" straight and filled in the slot at the joint with Plastic Wood, being sure to fill in the entire flare. To avoid getting anything on the track, I used masking tape to mask off the track surface. The really good thing about using Plastic Wood is it does not glue the pieces together; after it hardends, you can seperate the pieces.

After it hardened, I tried a couple different ways to reroute the slot. Using the Dremel freehand was a mistake as I could not get a straight line and made a mess. Plus, the Plastic Wood stuck to the bit and I needed to lightly run the bit over a file to clean it off. That's out.

However, what I found worked really well was taking a hacksaw blade and cutting through the Plastic wood, using the slot as a guide. This can only be done one piece at a time. It created a perfectly straight slot quickly, just a little too narrow. Using a very thin file, I opened the slot just a little. It looks great. If I can get a method down to do this quickly I may have a winner. I need to try this on a curve to see how I can cut the slot into the Plastic Wood; it's very possible the hacksaw blade will bend easily enough to where it's not a problem. I can also try putting something in the slot (like an old credit card) before filling. This would give me a head start with a slot already started.

This would be a biggie to me as (especially) my T-Jets really wobble going down the straights as they encounter each flare. Like I said, if I can get this method down to where it doesn't take much time at all, the really good part is the piece only needs to be done once and it can be reused over and over in different layouts. The other option is creating blade style guides for T-Jets which can ride out flares a whole lot smoother than pins.

Joe

Grand, for side by side track clips, I don't know if this would work for you or not but... I have these plastic sheet holders from some office supply store. Cut off a piece and trim the height a bit and they slip them on. They seem to hold straights and curves together just fine, side by side at least. But, the track does have crown now if you flip them over right side up, unless you shim the outsides also. I use them to create crash walls by inserting posterboard with logos on them. I tried to attach pics, home they come through, never tried before.

Grand, for side by side track clips, I don't know if this would work for you or not but... I have these plastic sheet holders from some office supply store. Cut off a piece and trim the height a bit and they slip them on.

Now that's what I'm talking about!!! While I stuck out (multiple times) yesterday at the Home Depot, using these plastic clips could be a nice, cheap solution. Excellent work!

You think there would be metal versions of these things but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Experimented more today with Plastic Wood. I took 5 pieces of 9" straight (each piece has something wrong with it), joined them together and filled the 4 inside joints with Plastic Wood. After about 2 hours, I cut out the slot with a hacksaw and filed it down. Didn't take too long.

I then replaced a section of 5 9" straights on my layout with these 5 pieces. The cars flew through them without a problem. But, were they quieter or produce less wobble? That was really hard to tell, although I tried to convince myself the answer was "yes". I'm thinking the curves are where I'm going to really see if this idea works.

But, I'm also going to try another approach. My testing so far was done by filling in the entire slot at the joint about an inch long. That makes the filler go well beyong the length of the flare. What I am going to try is the exact opposite of what has always been done. When a slot joint gives you problems, what do you do? Amswer: file away some material away. What I may try is instead of filing material away, maybe I'll put just a miniscule amount of Plastic Wood into the joint to build up the slot just enough to get rid of any sharp edge. I got plenty of old, rusted 9" 1/4 curves for testing.

Is anyone interested in this (silly?) experiment? If not, I'll just keep going without posting.

Thanks...Joe

Keep posting Joe:wave:

Keep posting Joe:wave:

Agreed! We may not be posting many comments, but we are right here with ya, hoping to benefit from your experience and experiments.

Today I experimented with just filling in the flares with a miniscule amount of Plastic Wood. I tried this on a pair of very rare and expensive 9" 1/4 curves. I know it's foolish to experiment on such valuable pieces, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet.

Plastic Wood seems to start setting up pretty quickly, so once you start putting it in place, you don't have a lot of time to fool around. I took a very small screwdriver and used that as my filling tool. I tried taking very, very small amounts of PW and laying it in the flare. Once it dried and I filed it smooth, I was happy with the way it looked. For the most part, the flare was gone and there was no edge to the PW. I would guess that at it's widest point, the flare makes the slot at least 50% wider than normal. When I was done, T-Jet and AFX (blade) guide pins seemed to go through smoothly. Even at an (fishtail) angle, the T-Jet pin did not get caught. I only ran them through by hand, not under power.

It's a little tough to get the PW into the slot doing it this way. You can't just slap it in because I was trying not to fill the entire slot; just the walls of the slot inside the flare. So you take a little, get it in the slot and then try to force it into the flare without it sticking to the screwdriver. And without getting it on the track surface. I'll do more tomorrow and maybe even try some pieces on the layout where I have the most problems.

Is it possible for me to coat the screwdriver with something that would prevent the PW from sticking to it?

Thanks...Joe

Hey Joe, any reason you cant adjust the consistency of the filler to make it a little more cooperative?

The three main "nasties" in PW are Acetone, Butyl Acetate, and Isopropanol. Never had occassion to search for BA, but Acetone and Isopropanol are easy enough to come by.

Thinning product for ease of application can increase cure times. Acetone may also cause some undesired melting, etching of the parent plastic; as well as a higher shrinkage rate in the finished application. However some mad scientist reformulation of a couple drops one way or the other could make it more spreadable and allow a longer work window. The Isopropanol will undoubtedly increase the cure time more than Acetone but wont eat the plastic like Acetone. Try a few experimental spreads and see if you can adjust that chunky, crusty wood dope into a creamier more user friendly product.

Instead of the "screwdriver spreader" how about something cheap and disposable? Maybe snip up a plastic soda bottle into 800 'lil disposable spreaders that can be tossed when fouled. Another option might be milk or bleach, jugs. Polypropolene I belive?...generally bucks anything you try to stick to it. Another idea is spring "Blue" steel like good quality plasterers knives are made from. 'Magine you could find a small chunk of that... could be procured from one of those annoying kids clicker toys and ground into the desired shape. Usually very thin and cleans up with a qwik wipe on a thinner rag.

If the PW proves to not work out, There's an automotive product called "Duramix". A two part epoxy used for repairing all the exploding plastic junk on todays modern cars. It comes in a double sided epoxy syringe with a handfull of "silly straw like" disposable mixing tips. Ya put a tip on, hit the plunger and A&B are mixed correctly by the time it hits the tips end. Very cool! Used it for years! Never occured to me until just this minute that it possibly could be used for track repairs.

Comes in a few formulations based on the flexibility of the parent material to be repaired. It's sandable, paintable, shrinkage is nill, AND comes in any color ya want so long as it's black LOL.

Naturally it's a bit spendy, some where around 20 bux for 6 er 8 ounces (last time I bought some), but it will go on for miles in your type of application. If memory serves the kit does come one size smaller like the JB Weld syringes

All that said, it IS harder to sand than PW, however much easier to sand and shape than your conventional clear, qwik epoxies or JB Weld that most folks are familiar with. It is designed for plastic and will take the repetetive pounding in the slot. I'm not certain that PW will stand the test of time.

Just throwin' some ideas out Joe.:wave:

Is it possible for me to coat the screwdriver with something that would prevent the PW from sticking to it? Try something with a more slick or polished surface than a screwdriver. Craft stores carry (or at least, used to) a bag of 3 plastic palette knives for about two bucks. One is shaped like a trowel with a thin flexible blade about an inch long. It's great for placing and smoothing little dabs of stuff. Don't know if it will be affected by the solvent in the PW - I use it for water-based stuff like spackle.

You might try a different application method - get a piece of slot width scrap material - balsa, cardboard, or craft foam - and put some kitchen type plastic wrap around it - practically nothing sticks to that stuff. Plug it into the slot at the joint and push your filler material into the flare from the top. When it dries just pull out the scrap piece and peel away the plastic wrap from the track. If you get the width right, you might not need to file at all. You could work a dozen joints at once this way, if you had enough slot-width pieces.

Again, being a water-base guy, I'm not sure if the solvent in the PW might melt the wrap, but it would be easy to test. Or you could go to water-based filler, not necessarily even a putty - I suspect a small bottle of white glue would work as an injector from the top, and the glue would dry with a slick, hard surface on the slot face where the plastic wrap was. Something to think about, anyway.
-- D

Hi Bill and Dslot,
Thanks for all those tips. I really appreciate the different ideas because somewhere along the line the lightbulb is going to go on. At least I think so - my lightbulb has been off a long, long time.

As far as mixing the PW with Isopropanol, that is something I can try. I don't care if the cure time goes up. I usually work with the stuff for a while and then walk away for hours. Especially now in the winter when I can't open the basement windows to let the fumes out. The can says PW is ready in an hour - I can wait much longer than that.

I'll try cutting up an old soda or bleach bottle and see how that works as an applicator. I also like the idea of a black filler. The PW I bought is a brown color as I didn't see any black.

As to Dslot's idea about putting something in the slot wrapped in plastic. I've thought about this and was going to use plastic cards (like credit cards). The first issue would be whether or not the filler material comes out when I remove the wood/plastic from the slot. The second issue is the small amount of material that is actually needed. When you put something in the slot, there's not a lot of room left to squeeze in the filler material. And it's next to impossible to do without getting it on the track surface. Once PW gets on the track surface, it doesn't wipe off no matter how quickly I get to it.

I could try masking off the track as I did when I filled the entire slot (which, by the way, is a method that is still viable). Of course, this would be less of an issue if the filler material were also black.

I think with the proper technique, this could be done quickly and easily, with the resulting slot being far smoother than it is today. It's just a matter of time.

Joe

Well, I've been playing with the filler for a while and I may have found a method that will work. I want to try it on my track for real, but I may wait until I get out my box of used Tyco track and set up a layout with that first.

What I am now doing is putting just a small amount into the flare (on both sides) with a very small screwdriver. I then put the screwdriver into the slot and bounce it back and forth between the slot walls, packing the filler into the flare. Then give it the once over through the slot to clear out any filler stuck to the bottom. I am doing this while the track is assembled. It only takes a minute or so per joint and not much filing seems to be required. Then a quick scrap off the track surface.

I also want to find Plastic Wood in black. If the filler were black, the job would look even neater than what I am currently getting. The brown color of the PW contrasts quite a bit with black.

When I looked the last time, there were a couple colors, but no black. Anyone ever see black plastic wood, or know how I could dye the PW before applying it?

I'm getting close.

Thanks...Joe

Joe --

Since the plastic wood is somewhat porous, I'd consider slathering some India ink over your filled flares. I think that would be quick and cheap. Since the ink is thin, you would not have any problems with blobs of paint interfering with the guide pin.

-- Bill

Joe --

Since the plastic wood is somewhat porous, I'd consider slathering some India ink over your filled flares. I think that would be quick and cheap. Since the ink is thin, you would not have any problems with blobs of paint interfering with the guide pin.

-- Bill

Black Sharpie Marker.

Hi Guys,
I had been thinking about painting the PW after it hardend, either by using a Sharpie or a paint pen. What I was hoping for instead was some way to either get, or make, the material itself black before starting so that (a) I avoid the time required to paint and (b) the color is all through the filler so it doesn't show if I need to file or if the filler wears down.
Plus, you would need to get the paint/marker into the slot and paint the inside of the walls as well as the bottom of the slot if you wanted a really good looking finished product. That could be tough.
If this actually works, I can become the DOT for my track. Just go along and apply the PW wherever I see a "pothole", which could include making smooth transitions between pieces of track that have slight height differences. A little dab'ill do ya!

Joe

For joining I just use parachute tape underneath. For the straights you can leave the tape on a fold them over onto each other. I now have four lane 5'3'' straights I can click into place in about 2 seconds.

Of course this works best for temp layouts, and once GAR comes out I won't need it.

Of course this works best for temp layouts, and once GAR comes out I won't need it.
So any news about this almighty GAR track system? You've been throwing comments out there about it but I haven't seen any movement on this system since the website came out 2 years ago. The links on the site still say "coming soon", etc. Was any track ever made available through retail yet? :confused:

...What I was hoping for instead was some way to either get, or make, the material itself black before starting...Joe,
What's the recommended thinner (solvent) for your brand of plastic wood?

If the package says to thin with mineral spirits, then you are probably safe adding black enamel; buy one of those little Testors or Pactra model-paint bottles and go to town (they're still 15 cents, right?:rolleyes:). If it takes lacquer thinner, then black lacquer. If it's water, black acrylic. If it's alcohol, mix in a little black shoe polish.

In paint mixing, a bit of black will make a lot of light color very dark very fast, so you probably won't need too much. If you have to add so much paint that the putty gets too sloppy, you may just have to leave the mixed batch out for a while to harden up a bit before you apply it.

Goes without saying, but make up a small test batch and see if the paint affects setting, hardness, grip to the track, or whatever. Let dry and run a few cars through it to see how it wears.

That's my best guess.

-- D

So any news about this almighty GAR track system? You've been throwing comments out there about it but I haven't seen any movement on this system since the website came out 2 years ago. The links on the site still say "coming soon", etc. Was any track ever made available through retail yet? :confused:

Why so aggressive?

Anyone who knows Brad Bowman knows that he won't do something unless it can be done 100% right. For that reason GAR has had a long and occasionally painful gestation period.

I think it will come out either this year or not at all.

In Slott V's defense, constantly comparing current alternatives against something that's not yet (or may never be) available is not a fair comparison. In marketing this is called FUD, a technique intended to freeze the market and keep buyers from buying your competitor's product now and keep them waiting for your future release. I don't think Brad is engaging in FUD at all, he's just on his own timetable. But until something is actually available for sale its merit as a viable alternative for comparison sake should be greatly diminished. If I can't buy it it ain't real.

Heck, I'm still waiting on Microsoft's killer next version of OS/2 and Presentation Manager that was due out any day now circa 1989/1990.

DW- I guess I'm just aggresive by nature- I'm from Chicago. :dude: -I've just noticed you seem to suggest things to people that aren't really available to the public or practical to the issue. In this case- if routed sectional tracks is the solution for troublesome plastic track you how come you don't already own something done by Bowman? Would it be the costs involved? You're sounding like you'll be the cat that ate the bird with this GAR system yet you have no idea of the cost, performance or availability of this proposed track system. Nor do any of us. Care to elaborate since you know Mr. Bowman so well?

AFXToo thanks- you said it so much more eloquently than I ever could have. ;)

I own one piece of prototype GAR and I am quite happy to admit that. However I do intend to invest in, it if it comes out, possiblly to the tune of $1200. Having raced on Brad's best ever product (or maybe second best to the KSR) and one of the best tracks in the world, any scale, I have no doubts that he is the real deal.

No offense, but I'm not sure that anyone has questioned whether or not Brad Bowman is the "real deal". In fact, as far as it relates to the context of this discussion, I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean.

As someone who is relatively new to the hobby (since last summer) and looking forward to major work on his first big build (commencing this spring), I can see the point that SlottV and AFXToo make. Would I buy GAR if it were available today? Maybe. But since it is not, it's not even a consideration.

Neither is waiting. If I were to wait for some newfangled system that may never even be fully developed/marketed/retailed, then I may never get to the point of where I've built a track at all. I can only incorporate today's product into today's plan.

Joe,
What's the recommended thinner (solvent) for your brand of plastic wood?

If the package says to thin with mineral spirits, then you are probably safe adding black enamel; buy one of those little Testors or Pactra model-paint bottles and go to town (they're still 15 cents, right?:rolleyes:). If it takes lacquer thinner, then black lacquer. If it's water, black acrylic. If it's alcohol, mix in a little black shoe polish.

In paint mixing, a bit of black will make a lot of light color very dark very fast, so you probably won't need too much. If you have to add so much paint that the putty gets too sloppy, you may just have to leave the mixed batch out for a while to harden up a bit before you apply it.

-- D

DSlot,
The Plastic Wood I am using is from DAR. I do not see anything on the label that refers to a thinner; the closest it comes to mentioning a thinner is to use DAR Wood Filler Solvant if the PW becomes dry or stiff.

However, I do see where it says on the label "Can be tinted with oil-based stains (Natural color only)". I bought the natural color. I assume they mean you can tint it before applying it.

Now, let me first state that my artistic skills are next to nil and my knowledge of paints and mixing are nearly non-existant. But, I can go over to the hardware store and look for a small can/bottle of a black oil based stain and try to mix it up with a small amount of PW and see what happens.

Just as an aside, the PW says to stir the contents before using. This stuff is pretty thick and stirring it is pretty much out of the question. All I can do is put a mixing stick in the can and poke around for a while. Since they have you store the can upside down, I'm guessing whatever softening agent is in the PW goes to the side from which you are going to take material.

Thanks...Joe

Well, today I tried mixing a little black paint in with the Plastic Wood. While theoretically possible, it's not the method I will choose. I took a small amount of PW and mixed in some black paint. I then started to apply the PW. As you can imagine, the mixed PW/paint was thinner than the PW itself which actually made it harder to work with; now I'm glad that PW is so thick.

The other problem is that since the PW/paint was black like the track, I really couldn't tell where I applied it. Turns out that having the PW a different color than the track is actually a good thing. So, I think we are back to using PW in natural color (light brown) and then painting after it dries.

I am also going to open a new thread in the tuning section on Aurora T-Jet wheel hop. Some cars get pretty upset at each track joint and there may be a pattern.

Joe

Here are a couple pics for those who have not seen the new style Mattel track. One pic shows the rail bend, another shows the flares. The third pic is one of my last attempts to fill the flares with Plastic Wood; as you can see, it comes out looking neat without spilling over onto the track surface.

Joe