I have seen some postings about maybe wanting a handout motor for larger racers. But would that solve the problems or create new ones.

Ponder this: When I bought my lovely wife here diamond ring. The solitaire diamond came with a GIAFF certificate listing all the attributes of that diamond. With that certificate I can identify that diamond with credible certainty.

Could the same be applied to sealed handout motors?

At the factory:
The motor is teched dyno'ed labeled and given a TECH certificate. When the racer presents the car for TECH the certificate and motor serial numbers have to match and so to the attributes of the motor: resistance, KV and inductance.

At the Track/Race:
If at anytime and with in reason the values read during tech do not match the TECH certificate, the motor is to suspect of tampering. That simple!

After then race:
With the available technology to store large amounts of data cheap, the motor maker can record the teched values to a database for future review. That database could determine based on statistics what would be acceptable values and what would be unacceptable. The motor manufacture could also learn and improve motor designs by learning from the motors that fall outside the "SPECS".

sounds posible but it will create alot of work for someone and probably would raise prices to sustain this info but it might be worth it

To expesive for the race director. What about if you change the rotor, or bearing? That will change some of the readings you get.

Money is just part of the game. If it was feasible for all retail motors I say go for it. At a large event, how many motors does a person need? One, Two? Surely not three. Getting the racers to pay the extra cost to have a $80 motor be a handout may or may not happen but those racers can also Ebay that motor for $50 too.

Handouts would prevent racers from spending $500+ in motors and rotors to piece together a frankenstine with Zubie digits into the millions.

The quality control on producing BL motors will get better. To the point that nearly every motor looks, feels and acts the same on the track.

To expesive for the race director. What about if you change the rotor, or bearing? That will change some of the readings you get.


You don't, it is a handout motor, SEALED with Tamper a evident device.

The motor was proven to be working before being packaged and handed to the racer. If the racer kills the motor, I guess they just have to use their other handout motor they bought at registration.

After the event, racers can do as you please with the motor they bought it. Just during the event, rules are rules DO NOT TAMPER WITH MOTOR.

I understand now. The problem with this idea is some racers will not go to a race that costs $100 bucks to enter and get a motor they cant use after the race.

The idea is great, it will just be hard to get it done.

well....nothing is ever perfect and the race was wasn't held at a holiday inn either...else we all would be smarter

Geez... some guys have way too much time on their hands... dont you have more important things to worry about?
If things ever get to this stage I will just quit the hobby.

definitely a good Idea trailranger.Stratus, other types of racing go to way harsher extremes; complete teardown and tech= nascar. Plus its not like this type of thing would be implemented at a club racing level. But I think the sealed can BL would be a step in the right direction for spec classes.And I think with a little well thought engineering they could be produced at a much cheaper cost than the current BL motors.Use either a cast alloy like zinc, or go to a stamped steel design, much like a mabuchi motor but with a brazed rear bearing plate so the only way you could get in them was to grind away the brazing.Which would be very evident.Look at the new lrp eraser motors. They do not have replaceable bearings, a stamped can, and even though they have just come on the market are selling for around 55-60 dollars.Around $20 less than the current novak motors are priced at.

For a big race solution:

Novak offers factory sealed motors to hobby shops. The motor must look different from a conventional unit and have a serial number. A hobby shop or a sanctioning body buys the allotment of handout motors. At the beginning of the race weekend the motor is handed out, at the end of the race weekend it is reclaimed for the next race. If it's a sanctioning body then the motors can float to the location of the next race.

OR

Someone can invent an affordable and ACCURATE way to tech the motors via the terminals. If inductance is not accurate enough then maybe a small dyno. Whatever the method it should be accessible to competitors to make sure their equipment is within tolerance before the race.

Bob

420, I would love for Novak to make a cheaper motor so entry fees with handouts could cost less. But we already know Novak has tried that with the 4300 and plastic endbells and they discontinued that motor. I like the Idea of zinc casted and chromed enbells. Plastic holds heat so lets not bring that back...

Another approach to make motors cheaper would be just use less material which could be a good thing for cost and racing.

On the Trinity N60 motors the can is 36mm diameter, but in reality the the can is really 29mm diameter due to the cooling ribs. The motor was designed to be lighter but still carry high rpms. Reducing diameter of the rotors and cores will help curb the cost of the motors and get the RPM's and torque band back where normal brushed motors produce.

You guys crack me up :lol: This isnt Nascar or Formula one... we dont need tech Nazi's looking over everyones shoulders to have a FUN race.
If the big races were having such a problem with cheating the attendence would be way down. Allmost every post I read from guys who went to the Birds were saying what a great race it was. All this negative talk is hurting racing more than it could ever help it... my 2 cents.

sorry stratus, but untill you've seen over 2 decades of people pushing the limits of the rules you wont get any of what we are worried about.were not trying to be nazis, were trying to get people to follow the rules.If everybody followed the rules we wouldnt need to have discussions like this one. I am very worried about things where the BL systems are involved.For 1 main reason. This is the first year ROAR is going to allow BL to compete along side brushed motors in stock class electric races. People running BL set ups are already going to be under the eye of scrutiny for that reason alone. Couple that with a BL cheat, or mod or whatever you want to call the timing issue, that has been brought into the public eye only 3 weeks after ROAR posted the new rules for 08' and every single one of us guys running BL at a ROAR event are going to be pigeonholed as potential cheaters. Sounds like a nice way to begin a dirt racing season doesnt it. So conversations like this one are necesarry to explore our options.Plain and simple. It's not about being negative, it's about trying to keep things positive. If all of us racers were honest and played by the rules NONE of the disscussions about rules would be needed. But do you think things are going to get better by ignoring this stuff? People who are in DENIAL ignore things. People who are concentrating on making things better discuss them, and try to figure out solutions to problems so none of us have to worry about having this same discussion again 6 months down the road when some racer gets caught doing something at a ROAR event and we ALL have to pay for the stupidity of a few.so lets examine some options before it gets to that point.given some recent developments I personally think its called for, so if youre offended by it, I guess be offended.But this is the first year some forms of racing will get to see a BL in their car, and the true negative in my opinion is the fact that people are already going to screw the pooch for the rest of us because at this point Roar could just as easily reverse their decision on BL if they wanted to.Now do you understand why some of us are trying to figure this out. I'm not here discussing this for you guys in the BRL who already have a couple years running spec class BL. I am here discussing this to cover the tail ends of offroad and dirt guys that have waited and watched while everybody else has been able to run this stuff.

You are right 420.. this is an issue that needs open discussion so that all classes can benifit. Last time I checked ROAR was a membership based organization and the members help influence the classes, rules, and procedures. Other organizations may have a dictatorship that only allows single manufacutres to compete, but that is not ROAR's intent.

Brushless Handout motors have major advantages of brushed motors. Pretty much the motors are plug-n-play. With a tamper-evident design the fantom black magic should pretty much dissapper which is better for all racers at a major event. Also even though the cost of the motor would be around $50 or so for a handout the motor can be resold for majority of that cost.

Like I mentioned earlier, once the race is over the racer can do anything they want to that motor. Just during the race, RULES are RULES do not alter motor!

Exactly trailranger. Heres an idea KEEP last years handout for practice for NEXT season.The worst part is ROARS recent rule change is not even KNOWN to most that will be running by that set of rules!! I know a lot of guys that are going to do the happy dance when they find out that we dont have to run fantom handouts for dirt off road series races!!!50.00 for a hand out isnt bad. Especially when you would only buy 1 per class. Some of the guys I run dirt with buy AT LEAST 3 handouts per class that they run just so they can run a decent one for qualifiers, and then the fastest of the bunch for mains.so if they run 2 classes requiring handout motors they spend 150.00 minimum.

shoot keep the handout motors and have your local track have a class for them! the time will come where trinity sponsors the birds in 2009 and you have to use there handout brushless motors in all classes except open mod....watch!

you could do this very expensive idea in 09 and i guarantee 5-8 of the guys in the A at birds this year...will still be their next.......

If it's handout brushless, I'll save my money and stay home!!!!!!! Trinity was at the heart of the Cheating and your want Trinity to have the handout motors!!!!!!!!! NO, NOT ME!

Well to each his own... I have been racing RC since the late 90's and full size cars since the 70's... I think I know a little about what goes on... and you know what, I really dont worry about what some guys might do to win... some guys will allways find a way to go faster, legal or illegal.... thats just racing
This is mainly a "bragging rights" sport. There is not a lot of money to win and very very few make a living by winning races. In fact the only one who comes to mind is our local guy Paul Lemieux.
Fast guys will allways be fast and no amount of rules will "even" the feild. I always felt the the fewer rules there are the less "cheating" there can be.
In fact I always try to make the bigger races like the Snowbirds and the IIC because the rules are simple and I avoid the ROAR races because of all the drama that seems to happen each year with rule issues.

Sounds good on paper but it want work. What happens if you over gear it. The number may change what then. You going to DQ a guy for missing the gear.

Ritchie Mac

Ovalguy, if a racer overgears and cooks a motor or fades the rotor the numbers will head in the direction of decreased performance so DQ'ing based on that would not happen.


As for trinity making the handout motors......UMMM NO! I would rather leave the motors to the profressionals to develop and make tamper resistant with the motors having tighter tolerences in manufacturing.

Fast racers will always be fast, so a handout motor does not affect them. A tamper-resistant sealed motor will keep the cheaters from catching up or going faster.

Handout motors do have use after a major race. Most likely it won't be the only race a racer will attend and that means the previous race motor could be used for practice saving the "Event" motor(s) for the heats and mains. Or there is EBAY.