Will a pro-tracker m chassis outrun a new style t chassis?The package on the t chassis says 1000 scale mph and the pro-tracker says 1300 scale mph. Which one has fasterlap times?

I have a few of the LifeLike cars and i prefer the "M" chassis over the "T" chassis.I think the "T" chassis may be slightly faster but tht "M" chassis is smoother and sticks a little better.I just bought two more off ebay.A guy by the name of "TubTrack" on ebay has some good deals on the LL cars.He will put either chassis you want under a body-"L" or "M".:thumbsup:

The T chassis is much faster and handles better. I have raced both extensively. I like the m chassis cars, have even won a few National box stock support races with them. The T chassis in almost all circumstances will beat them. Depends on the rules you run-- if neo is allowed run the T.

As you can read "neorules" and i have different findings over the two LifeLike chassis.Although i have never won any national championships running the LL chassis or any other chassis for that matter.I prefer the "M" chassis.As stated the "T" chassis is a little quicker but on my Tomy layout i think the "M" chassis is the better of the two.Your best bet would be to pickup one of each chassis and decide for yourself!:thumbsup:

A well setup T can keep up with a fast SS and blow the doors off a stock Tomy SG+. They can be absolute monsters, but they can also be total slugs depending on the luck of the draw. They tend to be loud and the big hollow LL stocker bodies only accentuate their growl, especially on a plastic track. The stock front wheel/tire combination leaves a lot to be desired, but you can replace it with a solid axle with independent wheels so you can adjust the ride height with different front tire sizes. When a T needs anything other than new pickups or new pinion, which is an off size by the way because of a non standard arm shaft size, it's trash bucket time for them. But while they last, they are cheap speed to the max.

I prefer the M chassis because it is a more conventional design from a tuning perspective, it's repairable, and it offers decent performance for the price. I think it runs much quieter than the T. There is still a wide variability in performance from car to car out of the package. In stock form the M is not as fast as a T on most tracks.

You may have been reading the packaging for the Pro Tracker SS. This variation of the M chassis has an independent front end, stickier rear tires, and an outrageous gear ratio (8/18 I think) that's virtually unusable on all but the largest tracks. I've run these on 100+ foot routed tracks and they absolutely fly. On a smaller track with 6 inch turns they serve as good projectiles for testing the sturdiness of your track walls.

There is also the LL Power Tracker. It has a special arm with skewed laminations on the poles. It seems to have a little better bottom end over the stock arm, but I have not really noticed a big difference. Comparing LL chassis is kind of hard because there is so much variability between supposedly identical chassis. Of all the M chassis I have the best runners as a group are the Rokar M5 chassis, which is the chassis that the LL M chassis is based on. For some strange reason, all of my M5 cars run extremely well.

Overall, I like both cars. But no doubt, right out of the box, the T chassis is the faster of the two.

But the M is also fun for some of the characteristics that the T cannot provide. For example, the M's motor and traction mags are one and the same, located in the center of the chassis. So the M has a tendency to have the tail slide out a little when taking corners and esses at the car's limit. I like that. On the other hand, when a T's neo mags lose rail traction, you lose the car without any real chance of saving it.

Give both a try and have fun!!

Heres a pic of the two chassis.As Rudy stated once the "T" chassis is gone its gone.With such small diameter trac mags on the "T" theres not much room for error.The only mod i do to the LL chassis is the addition of AJ's .450 diameter GumDrop slip-ons.Im gonna run some laps with these two chassis and compare lap times and see which of the two is truly fastest.On my layout both seem happy at 15V.More to come!:)

Alright, first off, I have won NO races with either style chassis.

That being said, I do have an old article form a guy who DID win the national Box Stock championships for a couple of years and he says the High 5 M5 chassis were the shintz. I would have to go in the attic to retrieve the articles, but what I do remember is buying or making a better front end and using bearing holders with the numbers 2 and 4.
These are supposed to be better alinged than the others.

Keep in mind, this may not mean squat with the present day T chassis and the tweaks that may or may not work.

The big difference I see is the T chassis has such a small area of mag down force that here is no drift action warning when the car gets squirrelly , it just goes!

I personally like to gear up the M chassis slightly with the old Riggen 20 tooth white/clear gear that old Kippy (RIP) used to sell.

That and a good independent front end and the cars are fast/predictable/ and FUN to drive.

I do have a T chassis that I mounted a Tyco Indy body onto that is way fast but is also twitchy.

Thanks,
Keith

Pomfish--- I would like to see that article. My guess is that Tim Miller may have been the author. I think the only truly legitimate classes in organized racing is Unlimited and box stock. These are the classes that I have focused on throughout my years of racing.I have been fortunate enough to have won National Hopra titles in both classes. Rider Z-0- depending on the type of track you are running on and your power,I would recommend as a general rear tire height with the M chassis around .434, with the T chassis I would go to about .424.

If anyone can lap a decent track faster with an M than a T, I would say they are not pushing the T hard enough.

Pity the pickup shoes are so temperamental.

I agree... I like the M chassis but the T has the better traction magnets and will outrun any M chassis with any respectable driver.
And for arguement sake, it will also outrun any T-Jet... and that is not a knock on a T-Jet.

If anyone can lap a decent track faster with an M than a T, I would say they are not pushing the T hard enough.

Pity the pickup shoes are so temperamental.

I've never had a pro tracker but I can't believe it could possibly be faster than a T. The T chassis is incredibly fast but as mentioned above they can be inconsistent. I have had a few dogs. Dave.

All I know is the kids don't care which LL chassis they have to run through the wall. Picked up many over the years for runners when for the novice slotters that would visit. What is it with these newbies that just get a kick out of launching one of these cars off into the crevices of hidden space in the basement? Didn't mind if they tore them up, they weren't going to run those old MTs and Tjets. Anyway, I know they wouldn't go fast enough for them and they couldn't keep them on the track either. Would have to vote for the earlier LL chassis. :thumbsup: rr

If you are running kids with LLs use the old Tin lid chassis cars on 12 volts.
Those and Tyco X2s drive like G-jets on 12 volts. The T cars are better left
to the adults.Put a BSRT 20t crown gear with BSRT wheels and slipons,bend
the chassis front motor mounts down to get the can running flat in the chassis
and set your ride higth.When it croaks save the rear end and the body and buy
some rollers off of ebay. Tim Miller

Interesting views here. I recently acquired a two-pack of T chassis-cars. One runs like the devil (and could keep up with a SG+ around my track if not for the magnet issue). The other runs a bit sketchy, as it loses contact consistently around two turns on my track. Only car I have that does so.


I've spent a couple hours in trying to tweak the bend in the pickup shoes; I've toyed with the pickup shoe spring plate, adjusting the tension of the shoe in doing so. I think I've gone too far in trying to increase the surface area of the pickup shoe, slightly crimping the shoe giving me less contact than where I've started. Ugh.

Before and after trying to tweak, this car has tendencies (even coming out of turns) to balk before accelerating. Oh well ;)

Valongi--- I would try a new set of pick-up shoes if you have them available. The one thing on the t-chassis that happens every now and then is that the shoe does not hang down far enough to make good contact. This is the main reason that one car will seem much slower than another. You could swap out the shoes from the other car temporarily to see if that would fix the problem. Otherwise bend the problem shoe at the front bend to give it more downward reach and travel. This will decrease the contact patch length, but this doesn't seem to matter much.

Thanks, Neo. I'd swapped out the shoes from the car that runs properly, and it didn't seem to be the cure-all. Regardless, I'm going to pick up some spare shoes for all my cars since I run them enough to see grooving in the shoe. I do have sections on my layout that are not friendly to cars without a strong magnetic down force (I love the challenge though). If you're not carrying enough momentum through those turns, you're running the risk of stalling out.

I've also taken a look at the spring plate, and have noticed the angle / height is certainly affecting the pitch of the way the shoe lies. Since the spring plate is very soft, I'm trying to be as careful as possible in not snapping it. There's a tuneup kit in the near future ;)

I'm using 3-in-1 oil on my cars also.

As stated in previous posts if you are running tomy track the rails are lower than lifelike that is why there is a pickup issue.One other suggestion that someone had that helped me was cutting down the front tires.And as far as I can tell the red wire arms are faster sometimes too fast for me at least.

Pomfish--- I would like to see that article. My guess is that Tim Miller may have been the author. I think the only truly legitimate classes in organized racing is Unlimited and box stock. These are the classes that I have focused on throughout my years of racing.I have been fortunate enough to have won National Hopra titles in both classes. Rider Z-0- depending on the type of track you are running on and your power,I would recommend as a general rear tire height with the M chassis around .434, with the T chassis I would go to about .424.

Neorules,

I was in the attic today and found the article, as I said earlier it is old info.
It was in the HO-USA Index Vol 9 Number 4 Febuary, 1996, written by the 1995 HOPRA Super Stock National Champion Dan Berg.

Anyway, it is a good read, he recommends the #2 bearing holders as best #4 as second best, Quicker Engineering Independent front end, High 5 Armature, older unpainted Rokar/Life Like Magnets, Stock pickup shoes and springs, Quicker Eng Rear axle 24 or 25 tooth wand a cut down Tomy G-Plus pinion(7tooth)
Rear tire size same as you said .434 to .436

These are all for the M car.

Reading this old HO-USA is a trip back in time before Epay, there are tons of classifieds in the back and prices are cheap!

Thanks,
Keith

Keith--- thanks for the info. Dan Berg is from the Madison Wi. area. He won the Ss NAts when it was Amature class only. He had the M-car worked out pretty well. The m-car was great when it was right-- keeping it that way was the challenge. We haven't seen Dan at races for a while, wonder what he's up to these days.

I replaced the pickup shoes on my faulty LL, and that made the difference. Interesting, when it was brand new out of the blister pack it rode like crap. Just changing the shoes did it. Hmmm.

I have a Lifelike M and it's an absolute slug. Tons of grip but just not fast. The Tchassis is fast but depends on the pickup shoes. For some reason any time I have bought a #24 (Jeff Gordon), it's always the fastest one...just a rocket that nothing can keep up to.

The old M cars tended to have too much brush tension out of the package. Racers used to trim the brushes to pick up speed, but just running the car for a while should improve it over time. Just watch the heat.

:wave::wave::wave:We at A&M Raceway like the m-car on the buck track
the t-car is fast but just like all cars u must put time in them great car for the new guy on are 55 foot max - trax oval, speed ,good looking , and they have FUN FUN FUN untill i take it away to close the store. (gears) ? on the t-car my hang up but alot of after market gears out there

m chassis is great but you cant go out to a store and buy them any more (in my area anyway) the t chassis is ok i have 2 bought them just to c how walthers is taking over the new company they were pigs out of the pack i had to get the pick ups good and flat and sand the stock tires way down to get the chassis close to the track and they run pretty good just like everyone else said the t chassis has no warning when you push it past its limit like the m chassis does i just do not like to buy anything that no one is produceing in mass .. but i will say i do own 5 m chassis and wouldnt take anything for them just kinda tics me off that they are not making them anymore seems like lifelike would like to have more than one chassis on the market.. i guess thats why tomy afx/racemasters is top dog .. I do think that as long as lifelike keeps making new nascar bodies they will survive i hope ..

It is still fairly easy to find the M chassis on E-Bay. I've gotten quite a few from dealer "tubtrack" on E-Bay stores (not auctions). You'll usually find them in quantity for around $10 each shipped and slightly more with chrome wheels. I've liked the M since the Rokar days and still prefer it over the T even though the T can be much faster.

I have ran both Life-Like M-chassis and T-chassis locally in our club.

The T-car is a good car, if you can find a fast one. I ran one mostly on ovals, with slip-ons, and won with it. In fact it was the way to go in our series on ovals (our box stock rules were pretty wide open when in came to what could be ran). In sports car we used to tinker with different crown gears and such. One tip, don't forget to put a little oil/lube on the front wheels. In a few instances I've seen the front wheels shear off in a crash, this will lessen the chances.

Also, does anyone have some of the first T-cars? I remember a couple of racers buying the "Winner's Cup" sets, with the old Jeff Gordon Lumina and Dale Jarrett #88 Taurus. In the first ones the cars didn't have any traction magnets; the holes were there, just no magnets.

I raced the M-chassis in the Thunder Road Tour and locally too. I always felt the challenge with them was getting the best chassis/armature combo. Some I had could give SG+ cars a run for the money, others were total dogs. I always liked them because I could build them as easily as a Tyco, and I loved building Tycos. I also ran a Rokar M which could absolutely fly! From what I've heard they were more consistent than the Life-Likes.

Rokar Ms Rule!!!!!!!!! I have one that is still top dog in our box stock, stock tire M chassis class. I certainly prefer the M chassis. Sure, the T is fast, and is usually faster than the M, but, depending on the track, when you get toward the end of a long heat(say, 3 to 5 minutes) that's where the M shines.
It's in the design, the M has good even weight, a low center of gravity, and the widest magnetic patten for traction of ANY chassis on the market. You can turn it almost 90 degrees to the slot and still have downforce. So, the dirtier the tires the better. You can slide it out and save it all day long. We ran some mixed brand classes, and for this reason alone, the M chassis always came out on top.
For the first two minutes, their may be no beating a good T chassis, even with it's microscopic neo mags, and those awful pick up shoes!!! What were they thinking? I guess they figured they could sell more shoes if everyone lost at least one per race. At this rate, when do you think they'll pass the Turbo/SuperG+ numbers? Stack a few sets next to you when you race. Someone racing next to you is going to grab one while you're not looking. Late in a long heat, it's well worth the time to grab the T car and run it across some tape to clean the tires, if your rules allow, because unless you do a 360 and keep going, you'll fly off with just the slightest bit of drift.

Just a few reasons why I prefer the M chassis.

I also like Tycos

Rich

www.myspace.com/northtexasslotcars

I've come around to being able to tolerate the T but still prefer the M. If you run on one specific type of track it's likely that you'll find one runs better than the other. Lately I've been spending more time on a track with heavy rails and the T and M are very equal and it comes down to luck of the draw on the performance. In fact, my perspective on the SRT vs. SG+ changed dramatically with the high downforce railed track. The SRT spanks the SG+, which is exactly opposite of previous situation where the SRT would barrel roll on corners that the SG+ could handle with ease. Bottom line is that the track makes a huge difference in the relative comparison of different types and brands of cars. On the high downforce track the following box-stock and near box-stock combinations are comparable and anyone can win on any given night:

Tomy SRT with stock tires
Tomy SG+ with black tractions and ground stock tires
LL-M with stock tires
LL-T with stock tires
Tyco 440-X2 with stock tractions (not reverse zapped) and silicone slip ons
Rokar M5 with stock tires

Unless noted all parts are stock. Changing the formula, silicone rears on a Life-Like, gray tractions on a G, etc., skews the playing field and is frowned upon in a friendly way. Tyco pans generally run as good as the narrows and both need silicones to keep up with the others. The SRTs probably have the most repeat winners, which is somewhat related to the popularity of the GT40 and Cobra Daytona bodies.

AFXtoo
What do you call a high downforce track? I mean, I know the technical aspect, but in your experience, how would you rate the following manufactured tracks....

Lifelike (okay, everyone knows they use the same rails for thier trains)
Tyco
Tomy
AFX Aurora
Aurora Model Motoring
Marchon
Maxx Trax
21st Century
Bucks Track

Just wondering what your opinion is.

Thanks
Rich

The highest downforce track I've been on used magnetic welding wire for rails. That's what I'd call a high downforce track. Think of Tomy being on one end of the scale, light downforce, and welding wire being on the other. Everything else is somewhere in between. The custom tracks are hard to gauge because there can be more variation from build to build because they are hand made and sometimes the customer specifies the type of rail (material and thickness) they want. Some of the early black Max tracks have very strong rails while others are not too bad. Tracks can also be changed over time. I've talked to guys who raced on a particular 21st Century track several years ago and said the rails were unexpectedly strong. I think the owner must have honed the rails since then because they seemed perfectly fine, not far off from a Tomy setup, when I used the same track a couple of years later.

Tycos

I haven't come across any T chassis cars that were faster than the M chassis I race.
But there might be some around.

It just seems to me that T chassis cars bog down like they're in a tar pit on the long straightaways.

http://i33.tinypic.com/52j88g.jpg

Sweet "M" chassis SF!!! Looks as though the rear is BSRT gear but what about those front wheels? Dont think i have ever seen those before.Also looks like the brush/pick-up shoe system has been tweaked?:thumbsup:

That's a Pro Tracker independent front end that I ground the tires down on it.

The electrical is stock pick up shoes and springs with Tyco brush springs and brushes, a AFX Super G+ armature and 7 tooth pinion, a BSRT 20 tooth Derlin crown gear on a Tyco .059 axle with AJ's 3100 Delrin single flange hubs and P/N 361 Royal Blue A compound SuperTires.

I spun both armature ball bushings in the bulkheads with a Dremel to make sure they float real free on the armature.

I also lightened the magnet clip which is the heaviest part of the car besides the armature to lower the center of gravity.

That combination of parts modifications makes it really go.

* If you have a M chassis car that's slow a AFX Super G+ armature will fix that.
__________________

http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style8,SuperFist.png

That's a Pro Tracker independent front end that I ground the tires down on it.

The electrical is stock pick up shoes and springs with Tyco brush springs and brushes, a AFX Super G+ armature and 7 tooth pinion, a BSRT 20 tooth Derlin crown gear on a Tyco .059 axle with AJ's 3100 Delrin single flange hubs and P/N 361 Royal Blue A compound SuperTires.

I spun both armature ball bushings in the bulkheads with a Dremel to make sure they float real free on the armature.

I also lightened the magnet clip which is the heaviest part of the car besides the armature to lower the center of gravity.

That combination of parts modifications makes it really go.

* If you have a M chassis car that's slow a AFX Super G+ armature will fix that.
__________________

http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style8,SuperFist.png

Question: How is that a LifeLike M still? I mean, would any race let you run it in the LL M class?

Question: How is that a LifeLike M still? I mean, would any race let you run it in the LL M class?

Yes, that's what they race at A&M Raceway.
High performance tuned slot cars on big high speed tracks.

New HO Slot Car Track In Fremont Indiana...A & M Raceway
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=217908


open track on tuesday night 6-9
/////////////////thursday night6-9
sat open at 3- till we are done
sat night racing 5:30 NASCAR 7:00 SPRINT
@
every sat night sprint car on the thunderdone G3 TYCO P-2 P3 PATHER
LIFE LIKE

STOCK ARM
IND FRONT
CER MAG ARM
CER TRAC(G-3) OLD DOT TRAC MAGNET
SLIP ON TIRES
GOLD, SILVER,STOCK ELE
OPEN GEARS

TYCO (MAY USE SILVER )
MAY USE T-2 MAG
WIZZ (ARM MAG ) REVERSED ZAPPED
THE BASIC RULES

NASCAR CLASS
WE RUN THIS CLASS ON THE BUCK AND THE THUNDERDOME WE CHANGE EACH SAT NIGHT 5-10-08 BUCK 5-17-08 THUNDERDOME 5-24-08 BUCK 5-31-08 THUNDERDOME 6 LANE TRACKS THUNDERDOME IS MAXTRAX
TYCO/ LIFE LIKE M CAR

YOU MAY RUN
SILVER BRUSHES SRINGS
ANY STOCK ARM 6.0 P-2-3 ,SLIP ON TIRE
D/F HUBS
INDP FRONT
7,8,9, PIN
20,21,22,23,24,25,26 27 CROWN
SHOES (GOLD, SILVER,STOCK,)
PRO PIN
OK HERE IS THE BIG ONE THAT MOST PEOPLE GO WHAT
U MAY SAND DOWN THE CHASSIE
AND MUST RUN A NASCAR BODY

HOPE THAT COVERS MOST OF IT HOPE TO SEE U SOON
BRING IT TO THE TRACK
LETS GO RACEING BOYS:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::cool: :cool::cool:

The transition to the Life Like M was quite a learning experience after the BSRT G3.

My first Pro Tracker straight out of the blister pak onto the track,
destroyed flying off the track like a missile. :eek:
http://i34.tinypic.com/wuf5ts.jpg
__________________

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A lot depends on the track layout & the rules as to what you can or cannot do with the cars. Last year (2007) here at North Coast H.O. we ran the T Cars with the new style wide bodies and the M Cars with the old style narrow bodies as two separate classes. The series competed on a variety of tracks running 5 minutes a lane for total laps. The winning lap totals between the two were always very close.

So, did the T or the M have the most 'winning lap totals'?

OK...I pulled some race results. This year (2008)we ran the M-Cars & T-Cars together using the newer wide bodies.
1/4/08 Stark Street Speedway (30 ft oval)
top five cars ran M-Cars 1st place 550 laps, 2nd 542, 3rd 541, 4th 540,
1/11/08 Stark Street Speedway (60 ft road course)
1st (T) 282 laps, 2nd (T) 267, 3rd (M) 253, 4th (T) 243
1/18/08 Green Lake Raceway (long road course)
1st (T) 144 laps, 2nd (T) 133, 3rd (T) 124, 4th (T) 121
2/1/08 Parkwood Memorial Speedway (6X16 Maxx Traxx tri-oval)
1st (T) 569, 2nd (M) 553, 3rd (M) 532, 4th (M) 499
2/8/08 Ben's 37th Street Speedway (long road course)
1st (T) 172 laps, 2nd (M) 160, 3rd (M) 159), 4th (T) 156
3/30/08 Lake Shore Speedway (4x10 tri oval)
1st (T) 385 laps, 2nd (T) 376, 3rd (T) 362, 4th (T) 299
5/4/08 The Dirt Track at Stark Street (4 turn 5x9 oval)
1st (T) 600 laps (21 min 7 sec) 2nd (T) 585, 3rd (T) 546, 4th (T) 543
NOTE: 5 of the six T Car wins were by the SAME car!

2007 M Cars & T Cars in separate races. Note:ALL M Car races won by same driver & car!
1/7/07 Stark Street Speedway (oval)
M Car totals, 510, 462, 461, 458, 454, 444, 441, 432, 374, 369, 366
T Car totals, 500, 499, 479, 477, 466, 454, 436, 424, 423, 397, 390.
1/28/07 Green lake Raceway (road course)
M Car totals 150, 133, 125, 125, 121, 120, 116, 116, 116, 112, 105.
T Car totals 142, 136, 134, 133, 131, 129, 129, 119, 113, 111, 109.
2/11/07 Stark Street Speedway (road course)
M Car totals 293, 260, 255, 248, 248, 243, 242, 237, 235, 199
T Car totals 303, 286, 286, 262, 255, 254, 252, 243, 238, dns
3/11/07 Lake Shore Speedway (oval)
M Car totals 501, 481, 460, 450, 449, 435, 415, 415, 401, 374, 370, 348, 333
T Car totals 568, 542, 515, 496, 485, 484, 473, 470, 470, 438, dns, dns, dns.

2006 M Cars & T Cars in separate races
1/8/06 Lake Shore Speedway
M Car totals (17 minutes 16 seconds) 500, 490, 487, 463, (16 minutes) 430, 398, 397, 377, 364, 339. Note: everyone ran 16 minutes, then top four raced to 500 lap mark.
T Car totals (16 minutes) 516, 472, 472, 471, 463, 429, 424, 408, 305, dns.
1/15/06 Green Lake Raceway
M Car totals 125, 122, 122, 119, 119, 117, 112, 112, 111.
T Car totals 146, 129, 123, 122, 122, 122, 118, 112, 112.
1/22/06 Stark Street Speedway (oval)
M Car totals (16 minutes 34 seconds) 500, 482, 449, 447, (16 minutes) 431, 423, 419, 411, 333, 329, 295.
T Car totals (17 minutes) 500, 494, 493, 451, (16 minutes0 438, 436, 427, 397, 378, 366.
2/12/06 Sanders Speedway (short maxx traxx oval)
M Car totals (20 minutes)900, 881, 848, 839, 764, 717.
T Car totals (20 minutes) 939, 928, 922, 906, 861, 816.
2/26/06 stark Street Speedway (road course)
M Car totals (20 minutes) 250, 238, 225, 223, 218, 197. 180.
T cars totals (20 minutes)279, 272, 269, 252, 246, 193, dns.
3/13/06 Parkwood Memorial Speedway
M Car totals (16 minutes) 457, 447, 444, 443, 432, 371, 369.
T Car totals (16 minutes) 423, 404, 398, 394, 370, 364, dns.
3/19/06 Ben's 37th Street Speedway
M Car totals (20 minutes) 170, 151, 144, 143, 142, 139, 133, 118.
T Car totals (20 Minutes) 161, 161, 154, 153, 139, 137, 136,111.

2005 M Cars & T Cars in separate races
1/9/05 Lake Shore Speedway
M Car totals (16 minutes 35 seconds) 500, 467, 467, 448, 433, 384, 377, 376,
T Car totals (16 minutes 30 seconds) 500, 497, 480, 474, 436, 430, 427, 408.
1/24/05 Green Lake Raceway
M Car totals (20 minutes) 131, 130, 126, 124, 119, 117, 112, 110, 110, 96.
T Car totals (20 minutes) 123, 122, 120, 120, 116, 112, 107, 106, 103,78.
1/30/05 Stark Street Speedway (oval)
M Car totals (17 minutes 12 seconds) 500, 497, 484, 463, 435, 432, 395, 383.
T Car totals (16 minutes 48 seconds) 500, 460, 441, 434, 424, 398, 390,368.
2/13/05 Ben's 37th Street Speedway
M Car totals (20 minutes) 177, 176, 167, 153, 150, 150, 147, 142, 138, 136,128, 121.
T Car totals (20 minutes) 155, 152, 142, 138, 138, 138, 131, 131,130,125, 89, dns
2/20/05 Parkwood Memorial Speedway
M Car totals (16 minutes) 445, 444, 439, 433, 426, 419, 407, 386, 358, 338.
T Car totals (16 minutes) 466, 466, 447, 446, 446, 444, 425, 414, 366, 342, 312.
3/6/05 Stark Street Speedway (road course)
M Car totals (20 minutes counter clockwise) 287, 269, 626, 255, 243, 223, 223, 185, 165.
T Car totals (20 minutes clockwise) 255, 247, 232, 231, 227, 220, 209, 140, dns
3/20/05 The Dirt Track at Stark Street
M Car totals (16 minutes seconds) 500, 477, 457, 454, 450, 423, 406, 405, 395, 338.
T Car totals (20 minutes 41 seconds) 600, 580, 562, 557, 508, 500, 495, 483, 476, dns.

I could go back through 04 & 03 but this shows that various tracks have different results and often there are one or two "Killer Cars" that stand out way above the rest of the pack. Over all though, we've had good racing with the Life-Like cars, both together and separately as a low end slip-on tire box stock style class.

Awsome data! (you didnt just make all that up did ya?) J/K So according to your records, the T does have an edge on these tracks(which appear to be a good variety.)

Well folks, I guess that settles it. Let's button up this thread and call it a day.

Rich

Well yes it IS a lot of data, but it gives you an in depth look. The one season ALL of the M Car races were won by the same car & driver who has built several Nationals winning cars for others besides himself and he's good enough to win with a less that 1st place car! This year 5 0f 7 races were won by the same T Car and it wasn't entered in the other two races. The point is, that if you look at the core of the competition and not the very extreme top & bottom, you'll see the closeness of both style of car. The top builders can win with either one.
As for the rest of the pack, it's still close and a matter of choice each race as to which one will run or feel better.