I recently got out of r/c racing, but after being involved in the industry as a racer, race promotor, hobbyshop employee, and manufacturer employee for over 18 years, I've decided to compile a list for the "average racer" of ways to "cheat". In this case, the word "cheat" is defined as things you can do to modify your equipment from the way it comes out of the package/box to increase performance, but will mostly likely not get penalized for because there is not a rule in place that says you CAN'T do it......Oh, and FYI, in most cases, there's also not a rule that says you CAN.....

1) Cut out the back of your body...at most races, in most classes, most do it, even though there is usually NOT a rule that says you CAN, it's just assumed because people have done it, not penalized, so I'll do it

2) True your tires.....they didn't come at 2.15" diameter out of the package

3) Cut up your chassis to add flex

4) Remove bi-level from wing (if applicable)

5) Polish kingpins, trim steering blocks, trim upper eyelets in front end (commons mods to make front end free and smooth)

6) Change wire guage on your ESC wires

7) OH....and timing ring modification to put more timing in B/L motor LOL

The fact is, most of the racers who are complaining about people exploring ways to make their equipment faster, are hypocrits. They're doing the same things they're whining about, just maybe not in ALL areas, but definetely some areas. If you're one of the ones complaining loudly, I really hope you aren't running a Pro-built car, with a well built front end, race-sized tires, a 4-cell Novak GTB with bigger wire put on and a BRL cover, and a body with rake or not cut at the body lines(and there IS a rule that says you have to do that). The top racers who are made out to be the BAD guys, are just thourough(sp?) enough to do it in all aspects of their equipment, not just the ones they hear about from their buddies(because you and your buddies couldn't think of the others on your own). And for the most part, all this DOES NOT effect YOU..why? because all the attention to detail isn't aimed at making people like Pete D, Arnie, Frank, etc 4laps faster than the "average racer" instead of 3laps, it's aimed at the top guys maybe having a shot at TQ at the birds, instead of settling for a 4th place qualifying effort. While the innovation in chassis mods may have cost you the "A" main, I guarantee the motor mods DIDN'T.

The whole problem with it all, is that most "average racers" want racing to be SPEC, but don't want it to be called that because it hurts their pride. Many say they've run the same B/L motor for year.....that's great...why not make the motors completely sealed, no oiling, no rotor changes, no bearing changes....run for a year, and dispose of....costs you $75/year for motor expense, with the secure feeling all the motors are the same and not tampered with. Not a bad idea, except, you'd probably then complain that you couldn't buy a fresh rotor after 6months, or put ceramic bearings in....to make you just a tick faster to get the advantage.

People need to understand that things like Brushless motors(and Lipo batts) are relatively new technology to the racing part of the industry. I'm sure the first 5 years a brushed motor EVER EXISTED in racing, they weren't twisting comms, shortstacking arms, zapping magents, maybe not even changing brushes/springs..etc.... Their will ALWAYS be innovation, and if promotors/orgainizations deem it "outside the spirit of the rules", then they will make/alter the rule, and move on....and the racers will adapt. I'm sure the rules for brushed motors changes ALOT in the last 30 years, as you should expect Brushless motor rules to change ALOT in the next 30. If you don't think that will happen you're being VERY niave. If you don't admire/appreciate/accept innovation(like I do), then you need to swallow your pride and run a SPEC class, or form your own class/orgainization/league and run your rules, and be content with that.

I think that's enough expressing for now! lol Opinions welcome!!

Just because the rules dont say you cant doesnt mean you should.I for one can proudly say that I have never had to slide in some underhanded crap to compete. I am done arguing this point with some of you who insist on defending your 'inovations' till the end. I Will just laugh when people with this attitude get D.Q.ed and asked to quietly leave with no refund on their entry fees. enough said.by the way I would be MORE than glad to see spec brushless classes go to sealed can motors.That would take it back to if there is evidence the can has been tampered with , you can't run it. The way spec classes SHOULD be.

The fact is, most of the racers who are complaining about people exploring ways to make their equipment faster, are hypocrits. They're doing the same things they're whining about, just maybe not in ALL areas, but definetely some areas.


On behalf of all the people that "get it", I'd like to disagree..

There is a huge difference between all of the modifications you mentioned,
and ones that are just plain against the spirit of the hobby..
Cutting tires is not against any rules. Nor was it ever intended to be a rule.
Changing the wires on a speed control?
Come on... be serious. It takes longer to rebuild your shocks...

And most every person on the planet understands the difference between
letter of the law, and intent of the law.
Written or otherwise.
The whole selling point of the Brushless concept was a more equal
playing field. And to get away from the hours of tinkering that racers
spent on brushed motors..
Those that explore areas of tampering, that are far
beyond the expertise/capability of the average,
or even above average racers,
know they are doing something contrary to the concept and intent...
If one is that smart, that he can do all of the electronic calculations
and modifications to a motor that is "supposed" to be left alone,
he certainly understands this.
Yet does it any way..


If you're one of the ones complaining loudly, I really hope you aren't running a Pro-built car, with a well built front end, race-sized tires, a 4-cell Novak GTB with bigger wire put on and a BRL cover, and a body with rake or not cut at the body lines(and there IS a rule that says you have to do that). The top racers who are made out to be the BAD guys, are just thourough(sp?)


I haven't seen anyone complain about the nice job that an Ulbrick type
does on assembling a car... There is nothing out of the ordinary practice
of just attention to detail, in the assembly, that is indeed possibly out
of the range of some racers' ability..
he just provides a service to those racers.


The whole problem with it all, is that most "average racers" want racing to be SPEC, but don't want it to be called that because it hurts their pride.


Maybe the ones you race.
The ones I race with enjoy being able to do things to their cars..
But building a trick speed control, or re-winding the inside of a motor,
just doesn't fall into the catagory of 'quality assemby'.
Or a 'good setup guy'.


If you don't admire/appreciate/accept innovation(like I do), then you need to swallow your pride and run a SPEC class, or form your own class/orgainization/league and run your rules, and be content with that.


Innovation is designing a new medium downforce body.
A new wheel design.
A better shock.
Improving that quality of a poor molded piece.
None of those things go against the spirit of the hobby.
I have no problem with a guy designing a new chassis, or a new diff,
or things on those lines.
This isn't NASCAR... it isn't Indycar...
It's a bunch of guys that get together on the weekends
to get out of the house, and compete with others.
If one has to cheat to beat a bunch of guys looking to have fun,
well... good luck. Hope you enjoy yourself.
You can be king of the hill...
But you're really the bottom of the barrel.

Hey Boys, they are still TOY CARS.

.......This isn't NASCAR... it isn't Indycar...
It's a bunch of guys that get together on the weekends
to get out of the house, and compete with others.
If one has to cheat to beat a bunch of guys looking to have fun,
well... good luck. Hope you enjoy yourself.
You can be king of the hill...
But you're really the bottom of the barrel. Well Said!! :thumbsup:

This isn't NASCAR... it isn't Indycar...
It's a bunch of guys that get together on the weekends
to get out of the house, and compete with others.
If one has to cheat to beat a bunch of guys looking to have fun,
well... good luck.

I agree with this 100%

But the reality is, the people that are doing the "innovating" or "cheating" as some call it, don't fit into the group that you defined. They are the ones that are not just weekend racers, but racers who come home from work everyday and spend HOURS EVERYDAY of the week working on their equipment, talking to fellow racers and swapping ideas, tips, etc. They're the ones who are at the track when it opens at 8am and have 5 or 6 packs of practice in before most even have their stuff unpacked. They are the ones who spend lots of money to travel to the largest, most competitive races to see how they stack up against the strongest competition, and then develop ideas on how to reach the top of THAT HILL. The racer who's doing the innovating, and looking for the slightest of edge doesn't belong to the group you outlined above, nor do they compete with that group on any regular basis, yet the group you outlined seems to always have the biggest objection to new ideas.

IMO, grinding on a chassis plate and grinding on a timing ring are one in the same, with NEITHER violating any current rule. If/when it is determined that either violates the spirit of some rule, then that will change my outlook on doing it from that point forward. But I guarantee this....grinding on your chassis plate will potentially gain you laps, where grinding on your timing ring won't.

We use several chassies AND ONLY ONE MOTOR.The same far from it.:drunk:

Jake

Hey Boys, they are still TOY CARS.

Easy old man, its just snow.. it will melt

Hey Boys, they are still TOY CARS.

Wrong, it's sporting equipment, motorsporting equipment.

Most of the things the original poster pointed out are not cheating, just properly building and setting up a car. Polishing your kingpins is most certainly not cheating. Cutting your chassis? hell build you own, it's not against any written rule anywhere.

This isn't NASCAR... it isn't Indycar...
It's a bunch of guys that get together on the weekends
to get out of the house, and compete with others.


Every popular form of motorsport racing limits the powerplant to a spec or formula. This is the "Formula" referred to in the various types of formula racing. NASCAR has all kinds of limits on the engine designs allowed to compete. It's just the logical way to structure competition between motorsport opponents. There will always be those who will actually break a rule (like taking a wind off of a rotor or BL can), but those people are actually cheating as there are written rules about modifying a motor. These people should be found and punished accordingly.

Bob

changing the timing didnt work anyways. i heard it wasnt faster

Is that from experience Joe? ;)

changing the timing didnt work anyways. i heard it wasnt faster

By cranking the timing you gain more RPM. To me for oval racing in most cases more RPM is better. It wont be faster if you try to run the same rollout. Just like the rollout for a LRP speedo wont really work well for a GTB. They run the motors at different RPM. My opinion crank the timing (within the specs of the motor) and practice to find the "sweet spot".:thumbsup:

Cheating is always going to be there no matter what class you run. As far as the timing ring mod. that was seen on peter d's car all the head race people had a chance to stand there ground and say no this is not allowed, but mike didnt, charlie from novak didnt, and sonny didnt say yeah or neah becuase it wasn't his race but you can bet that wont fly in the brl!I have to give peter and deiter credit it was innovative,but outside the spirit of fair racing.Also rpm can be a bad thing if you cant control the addtional heat it creates so finding the sweat spot is a relative term when there is more in the cars setup than any other thing, by the way the guy who stood up for what was right in 10.5 at the birds was also the guy who won it. way to go ARNIE FIE on winning the right way!

This whole timing ring mod is not new, I've heard about it over 1 year ago. That is one of the reasons I stayed away from brushless, I have also heard about rewinding the motor, Don't know if either made a diffrence but at 90.00 a pop i was not going to find out...

I am not bashing brushless I am pretty much making the change and it is nice to see these things finally adressed.

Kevin, you are right.... No one wants to say they run a spec class. Spec is thought to be for beginners, but is also for cost control. IMHO it is not always less expensive and once again racers look for ways to go faster than their competition.
Once there is a set of rules you have a spec class. Racers need to adhere to the specification/ rules, But they will always look for more speed in whatever class they run.
Racing is relative... No matter what the speed is, as long as you have close racing, the racers will have fun. Specs’ are just a way to try and have close racing.

Kevin, some people will never get your point of view, which is the same as mine. Hope to see you at the track someday again, miss racing with you.

me 21 the timing ring thing seems to give the car more rip but this is on a 175' carpet track it would be interesting to see how it works on my local 365' asphalt track, but the track owner says that the timing ring mod will not be allowed, personally i think when a person is caught outright cheating the race track owner should make an example of them like (take a month vacation on us!) but to each his own on that deal. as for the spec thing we had a class called super spec, trinty 21turn motor, bsr spec caps, and the rest was open this class had some creative people to say the least,but when it died off 13.5 took over and is great, now we are running 17.5 lipo and the people love it to ,sidenote the roar oaval nats will be at my local track again this year and there wont be any brushed classes as of now at the nat so brushless is here to stay.:wave::woohoo::wave::woohoo:

Good post Kevin. Now get your butt back to the track! lol


Cutting your chassis? hell build you own, it's not against any written rule anywhere.

Actually according to ROAR rules you can only run a prototype or custom car in modified. Unless you build your own and have it into production and available on the hobbyshop wall.

Not arguing just clarifying. And I know most are talking about the BRL and not ROAR.


-Adam Liehr

The fact is, most of the racers who are complaining about people exploring ways to make their equipment faster, are hypocrits. They're doing the same things they're whining about, just maybe not in ALL areas, but definetely some areas. If you're one of the ones complaining loudly, I really hope you aren't running a Pro-built car, with a well built front end, race-sized tires, a 4-cell Novak GTB with bigger wire put on and a BRL cover, and a body with rake or not cut at the body lines(and there IS a rule that says you have to do that). The top racers who are made out to be the BAD guys, are just thourough(sp?) enough to do it in all aspects of their equipment, not just the ones they hear about from their buddies(because you and your buddies couldn't think of the others on your own). And for the most part, all this DOES NOT effect YOU..why? because all the attention to detail isn't aimed at making people like Pete D, Arnie, Frank, etc 4laps faster than the "average racer" instead of 3laps, it's aimed at the top guys maybe having a shot at TQ at the birds, instead of settling for a 4th place qualifying effort. While the innovation in chassis mods may have cost you the "A" main, I guarantee the motor mods DIDN'T.

The whole problem with it all, is that most "average racers" want racing to be SPEC, but don't want it to be called that because it hurts their pride. Many say they've run the same B/L motor for year.....that's great...why not make the motors completely sealed, no oiling, no rotor changes, no bearing changes....run for a year, and dispose of....costs you $75/year for motor expense, with the secure feeling all the motors are the same and not tampered with. Not a bad idea, except, you'd probably then complain that you couldn't buy a fresh rotor after 6months, or put ceramic bearings in....to make you just a tick faster to get the advantage.

People need to understand that things like Brushless motors(and Lipo batts) are relatively new technology to the racing part of the industry. I'm sure the first 5 years a brushed motor EVER EXISTED in racing, they weren't twisting comms, shortstacking arms, zapping magents, maybe not even changing brushes/springs..etc.... Their will ALWAYS be innovation, and if promotors/orgainizations deem it "outside the spirit of the rules", then they will make/alter the rule, and move on....and the racers will adapt. I'm sure the rules for brushed motors changes ALOT in the last 30 years, as you should expect Brushless motor rules to change ALOT in the next 30. If you don't think that will happen you're being VERY niave. If you don't admire/appreciate/accept innovation(like I do), then you need to swallow your pride and run a SPEC class, or form your own class/orgainization/league and run your rules, and be content with that.

I think that's enough expressing for now! lol Opinions welcome!!

Hey Kevin glad to see you are keeping yourself pre-occupied with all this new found free time on your hands. While I am willing to bet you think most of us racers like myself that are "all about brushless" want a faster spec class, you are infact quite wrong. I simpy want it to be all about the chassis and that's all same HP for all. With proper mods a Brushless motor can be made to affect the outcome of a race. It is simply a matter of squelching a problem early on rather than letting it become a big problem.

I guess in Kevin's world what would happen is no penalty for the ring mod. After getting away with this then the guys would move on to desoldering the rings for the winds and re-wrapping to still have the proper #of winds but tighter which would leave excess to be trimmed off. Next we can start to shorten the outer stacks to shorten the winds as well heck lets get some high quality oxygen free slightly heavier gauge wire. Now we are making some HP...baby:thumbsup: Time to get stupid fast now, lets talk to some vendors and make some custom Sintered rotors that can peg the Zubie meter!!! NOW WE ARE HAVING FUN AREN'T WE

Look at what I just described and you see what happened to 19T in a nut shell.

Given a choice between "cutting a chassis" "polishing kingpins" "working on the front end" or tweaking on a BLmotor I will take the chassis option...

With Brushless it is all about removing (1) variable of many. It is far from spec racing, it is just a class between "spec/Stock" and "mod"

you witty reply is awaited:wave:

Joe Retherford

hey adam i'm interested as to what your thoughts on the timing ring mod is:) or what jim deiters is :)

With proper mods a Brushless motor can be made to affect the outcome of a race.

I agree mods can effect the outcome of races, they might have already. I know the guys that were clever enough to find a way to zap brushless rotors did VERY well at the paved nats last summer(Isn't there a rule against modifying rotors in any way...or are the mods that can't be teched OK to dabble in and still be within the spirit of the rules?).
I guess in Kevin's world what would happen is no penalty for the ring mod.

Since this doesn't violate any rule(just like zapping rotors may not), there should be no penalty. Now if those practices are deemed to be against the spirit of the class, then the organizations should create rules so there is no gray area in the future.

Given a choice between "cutting a chassis" "polishing kingpins" "working on the front end" or tweaking on a BLmotor I will take the chassis option...

Man, if you're not doing all of those, no wonder Roger keeps beating you LOL

you witty reply is awaited:wave:

LOL Although I don't consider myself very witty, I'll take that part as a compliment! You think chicks might dig me more if I say I'm witty? Not having to tell them I like to race R/C cars hasn't really seemed to help LOL

Joe Retherford

Look, I have no issues with people who want to have a truly SPEC motor, that is tamperproof, and will be 99.99% equal to effectively take motor out of the equation. That would be one of the best things that could happen in oval racing, BUT they way things are NOW, this is not the case. The motors are not tamperproof, and the rules are not in place to force people to keep them 100% stock. Until that happens, the people who spend $5000-$10000 a YEAR on their racing efforts, those that have 100% sponsor agreements on the line, or those who just have the desire to contend against the BEST racers in the country will continue to innovate until the "spirit of the rule" BECOMES THE RULE, and for that they should not be condemned.

...I don't know where I posted , but a while back I posted something that kind of fits with the subject at hand.

Nobody wants "MORE" classes...but most of the 'average' weekend racers I know also don't want to have to run against guys who will push the limit and sprit of the rules to the nth degree.

I don't or wouldn't have a problem with a TOP LEVEL class bending the rules and cheating each other every way til Tuesday - if that's the type of racing YOU GUYS want at the top level. On the same note - I think all the lower/mid-level classes should be 'VERY CONTROLLED' and have very strong limitations.

You can NOT police 'spending' - and a guy who chooses to run a ENTRY/SPEC/CONTROLLED class and outspend the next guy to win...kind of goes into the 'spirit of the rules' deal too...but it is a free country/world, and how would you stop that?

I may have to use 3-4 sets of tires for an entire season, where some guys can put NEW STICKER Tires on for Each Run. I can't and won't compete with HIS wallet...and I know MY limits.

Some guys will use NEW bearings - or run ceramics, where I get as many runs as possible out of my old .99c Boca Bearings.

Long and short of it - some guys take EVERY RACE very serious...this is not just a HOBBY to them - it's a lifestyle, a business, or what ever...and as good as those guys are...and as good as they are for part of this hobby - they ARE also the same guys who may hurt the hobby in other ways. These are the guys who scare off NEWBIES at a track that doesn't separate the entry level/just for fun guys from the Banzai Ultra Competitive racers. (Or the TRAILER GUYS as we use to call them) ...the INTIMIDATORS.

BOTH types of racers belong IN this hobby - but mixing them gets really sticky sometimes...if we can find the perfect answer on how to deal with that- we may be onto something that will help R/C Oval racing grow.

hey adam i'm interested as to what your thoughts on the timing ring mod is:) or what jim deiters is :)

I'm a little tired, and having trouble discerning whether this is a "stab" or not.

Yes I do run for Trinity and yes I run for Dieter.

While my motor did not have a timing ring mod, I don't see any problem with it. At least until the rule is put into place. It's like the 19turn class the past few years at the birds. There was no timing rule, therefore people were re-drilling the rings to get 40+ degrees of timing. While it was illegal for every other race, it was not illegal for the birds.

The funny thing is, more timing isn't always a good thing. My first year at the birds in 2005 I qualified 4th and was up to 2nd in the Expert 19 A main before a traffic incident. The other guys had 40+ degrees of timing, I ran 30-34 and was more consistant and just as fast up front.

As I have stated over and over again. If there is no rule to break, the rule cannot be broken.

Kevin also made a very good point. Small motor adjustments like that do usually help, but it's not somthing that will take someone from the bottom to the top. It is just somthing that can possibly take a top guy and make him a little faster than the next top guy.

Okay, I'm going to bed...

-Adam Liehr

...I don't know where I posted , but a while back I posted something that kind of fits with the subject at hand.

Nobody wants "MORE" classes...but most of the 'average' weekend racers I know also don't want to have to run against guys who will push the limit and sprit of the rules to the nth degree.

I don't or wouldn't have a problem with a TOP LEVEL class bending the rules and cheating each other every way til Tuesday - if that's the type of racing YOU GUYS want at the top level. On the same note - I think all the lower/mid-level classes should be 'VERY CONTROLLED' and have very strong limitations.

You can NOT police 'spending' - and a guy who chooses to run a ENTRY/SPEC/CONTROLLED class and outspend the next guy to win...kind of goes into the 'spirit of the rules' deal too...but it is a free country/world, and how would you stop that?

I may have to use 3-4 sets of tires for an entire season, where some guys can put NEW STICKER Tires on for Each Run. I can't and won't compete with HIS wallet...and I know MY limits.

Some guys will use NEW bearings - or run ceramics, where I get as many runs as possible out of my old .99c Boca Bearings.

Long and short of it - some guys take EVERY RACE very serious...this is not just a HOBBY to them - it's a lifestyle, a business, or what ever...and as good as those guys are...and as good as they are for part of this hobby - they ARE also the same guys who may hurt the hobby in other ways. These are the guys who scare off NEWBIES at a track that doesn't separate the entry level/just for fun guys from the Banzai Ultra Competitive racers. (Or the TRAILER GUYS as we use to call them) ...the INTIMIDATORS.

BOTH types of racers belong IN this hobby - but mixing them gets really sticky sometimes...if we can find the perfect answer on how to deal with that- we may be onto something that will help R/C Oval racing grow.


I'm shocked! Usually Joe and I don't agree on much. But I do agree with you on this. There is a need for both types of racers. Unfortunately there is that "intimidation" that many newbies have from the competitive guys. However what many of them don't know, is that the competitive guys are usually always willing to help. That is one thing a lot of the top guys at our local tracks have been working on. Making sure they know they can ask questions and get help or whatever. I know some guys who spend more time on other guys stuff than their own. Without the new guys coming in, the hobby dies. Therefore the competition dies, the racing dies, and the fun dies.

okay, now i'm really going to bed

-Adam

HI Kevin.. Good to hear from you. I think a big part of racing is always looking for ways to go faster. If your not, then your always going to be at the back of the feild. I wish the rules where inforced better at every track, but untill then I will cotinue to bend the rules as much as the next guy, because as I said before, I think that half the fun of racing is finding ways to go faster.

P.S.
Also, I know there will always be guys like Kevin Koback that are fester then me mostly because they are better drivers and put more time into there cars , and there will always be guys( like me ) looking for something else to blame it on

AL

Yeah Kevin! Someone finally said it.
I agree with you 100%.

At a race like the birds, guys look at the rules and should be able to do ANYTHING that the rules don't prevent. This IS racing. Good for the the ones who figured out how to do the timing thing. If a guy can figure out how to make his motor pass tech, given the rules, who cares what he does to it up to and including removing windings. If it passes the inductance or resistance reading, or whatever the rule is, its good. This may make up for the manufacturing tolerances. The lowest reading is there because some legit motor came from Novak with those readings. If someone wants, buy and inductance meter and experiment away! I don't want to spend the $ and the time it takes to do all this, but maybe I will someday. Until we have handwound brushless motors, (or maybe we already do) the meter reading is going to have to be the guidelines.

DZ

The guys who want to run spec type racing should have no problem with break out racing. That way the racing is strickly based on consistancy and luck. It's our biggest class and most of the guys run it and another higher class, the first to race and the second to learn, improve and hone their skills. I think it's great to have a place to start racing where driving and consistancy are all a driver has to worry about. I really hate to agree with what Kevin has said but it's true, if there is no rule then, well it's legal. I guess we the track owners and the motor police better get a little smarter in our rule making and tech practices. Until then, crank away while you still can!

One other thing, the Snowbirds used to be an Oval Only race and there was a break out class offered. How do you think an oval break out class would be recieved now a days?

Kevin you forgot overcharging lipo's is another way to cheat.




_________________
Got-Nimh?

I think that breakout racing is the only true "spec" class. I have never run in a breakout class, but it seems like it would be like drag racing, where if you go under your time you are DQ'ed.

Sounds like a great class for new guys.

Twisted Comms You Mean People Did That Crap You Failed To Mention That In The First Part Of Your Cheating Mods Hmmmm That Would Be A Big One Dont You Think!!!!!!!!!!

1) Cut out the back of your body...at most races, in most classes, most do it, even though there is usually NOT a rule that says you CAN, it's just assumed because people have done it, not penalized, so I'll do it
2) True your tires.....they didn't come at 2.15" diameter out of the package
3) Cut up your chassis to add flex
4) Remove bi-level from wing (if applicable)
5) Polish kingpins, trim steering blocks, trim upper eyelets in front end (commons mods to make front end free and smooth)
6) Change wire guage on your ESC wires
7) OH....and timing ring modification to put more timing in B/L motor LOL

Hmm, most of these things don't go through an approval process and you're allowed to do whatever you want with them basically. You don't have to run a certain tire, only that they fit certain dimensions. You don't have to run a certain chassis or front suspension, if you wanted to run the old style front end, the ASC one, or the new CRC one you can and because its open to all these choices, modifying it shouldn't be a problem. There's no list of approved wings, only that they fit in certain dimensions (and the BRL specifically says you can't run the second element). Changing the wire gauge on the ESC is actually sketchy, as is the BRL cover. The thought process there is that Novak came out with a ESC that was basically the same as the original but only lacked the heat sink and fan. So the cover should be legal then so you didn't have to go out and buy a new ESC, but the new ESC had the dissadvantage of the thin wire so we were allowed to have the best of both worlds and keep costs low. Bodies are interesting in some people's rules, but the BRL rules are well written. While there is an approval list, the rules state specifically that you must leave the back in for 13.5 and lower, and allows for the back to be removed in 10.5.

But when a motor is approved as a spec motor, and the allowable updates are listed, then I think its pretty tight, and that the spirit of the rule is pretty obvious. Now, I don't think guys that play in the gray areas are evil, but I believe that if it were a BRL event (not just using BRL rules) that they would have gotten the NASCAR treatment. A pat on the back for being sneaky and smart, and then told never to do it again because rule #1 would have come into effect and for the next round it would have been outlawed. Seeing as how it was Mike's race though, he chose differently, and thats ok. But expect to see it gone by the time the BRL rolls into the 'Burgh.

Its not the end of the world, or even the end of brushless.

My question is what makes you think that this hasn't happened in the BRL? The timing thing is not really detectable unless you know exactly what to look for, and until the birds I dont think anyone knew what to look for. As for the windings being removed if the BRL is teching with the inductance (sp) meter, it has been proven that you can remove windings and still be in the range.

BTW. I am not bashing the BRL here, just asking why you think it isn't happening.

adam i'm not stabing at you but the timing ring thing should have been adressed by mike boylan at the birds, i thought the rules were per brl.Your right about small timing adjustments helping, but just becuase there is not a rule doesnt mean you can do it, f1,nascar,and other racing bodies dont allow the no rule you can do mentality, but your right it,s not a adjustment that takes you from 34th to tq,one side note speed passion has a speedo that lets you add up to 25 degrees timing so the timing ring mod is of no use now. just wanting your take on the deal, no stabing just wondering. by the way i was the guy you told to ask mario if he was amish, iwas hangin with frank, humpty ,barry and the hd crew on most of the late nights. later tommy burgess:wave:

My question is what makes you think that this hasn't happened in the BRL? The timing thing is not really detectable unless you know exactly what to look for, and until the birds I dont think anyone knew what to look for.

I'm pretty sure Sonny knows what to look for. The timing thing is actually pretty easy to tech by looking at the sensor from the inside of the motor.

As for the windings being removed if the BRL is teching with the inductance (sp) meter, it has been proven that you can remove windings and still be in the range.


Where has this been proven?? Could it be done? Absolutely. Has it been done? Maybe but I doubt it. Would be it be successful??????

adam i'm not stabing at you but the timing ring thing should have been adressed by mike boylan at the birds, i thought the rules were per brl.Your right about small timing adjustments helping, but just becuase there is not a rule doesnt mean you can do it, f1,nascar,and other racing bodies dont allow the no rule you can do mentality, but your right it,s not a adjustment that takes you from 34th to tq,one side note speed passion has a speedo that lets you add up to 25 degrees timing so the timing ring mod is of no use now. just wanting your take on the deal, no stabing just wondering. by the way i was the guy you told to ask mario if he was amish, iwas hangin with frank, humpty ,barry and the hd crew on most of the late nights. later tommy burgess:wave:


Oh okay. Just wondering.

The timing ring was addressed by Mike at the birds. After things calmed down a bit, I asked him what his opinion was and what he was going to do. While his decision may not have been the best in some peoples eyes, in conjunction with the rules it was the correct decision. It was also consistant with his rulings in the past.

As far as the nascar comparison, I have to disagree. Mainly for two reasons.
1.) If NASCAR were to smash all the gray area engineering, they would still be running the same cars, engines, and setups that they did back when they started. Without gray area innovations, there is no advancement.

2.) Throughout the NASCAR season you probably see one person or team getting fined per week or every other week. While they are tightening down on some rules, there are still a lot of things that are either overlooked in tech, or just not known to the tech guys yet. With the domination that Hendricks program had last year, you can't tell me that Johnson and Gordon are just that much better than Stewart and Jr; or that their cars are just consistantly that much better than everyone else. They have somthing figured out, and the other teams just don't know which gray area they have stepped into yet. Racing is racing and everyone is always looking for an edge over the competition. If it's being done in r/c with toy cars, imagine whats being done in NASCAR with millions of dollars on the line.

While my opinions of NASCAR rulings may be off base, the point remains the same.

I am curious to see where brushless racing goes. I honestly think that motors are going to be the least of the worries as far as tech goes. Like you said, Speed Passion already has that speed control that if anyone wants they can get now that Schumacher is importing them. Granted they are not allowed for the BRL yet.


Oh, okay. You were the guy cracking all the jokes right?

-Adam Liehr

I have had enough of this , Please leave Racers names out of this period , I could say anything about anyone on here so lets leave names out before the keyboard gets lit up like a christmas tree

SHOOT AWAY :woohoo:
TQ run was with a Charlie delivered stock timing NOVAK motor untouched ...It is really a pitty that people can set at home and point fingers at world class drivers and have nothing but an opinion and we all know what they say about opinions its like rearends everyone has one ..SRM

Also Congrats to Mike Boylan for the best Snowbirds ever...and to all the people who attended.

Also Congrats to Mike Boylan for the best Snowbirds ever...and to all the people who attended.

Well said.

I went to the birds and had a great time. We heard about the timing mod at the birds...thought about it for about 45 seconds, then went back to working on our cars, never gave it another thought...it wasn't a big deal to most racers. The race was awsome.

Then I get home and see all this crap. Wow! The internet is like a different world. I know alot of guys that have basically quit racing since the switch to brushless here. This stuff will definetely keep them scared away.
All these threads about something the racers didn't even find beneficial. Wow.

I hate seeing stuff like this...

From what i have heard about the snowbirds why should I go there. Why should I spend my money to go to Flordia and race when all I hear is Hate?????? I dont get it.

Thanks
Taylor

So anyways. Congratulations Arnie on the win, Pete on the TQ, and Frank for running so well with hardly any practice. You guys put on a hell of a show.

Well said.

I went to the birds and had a great time. We heard about the timing mod at the birds...thought about it for about 45 seconds, then went back to working on our cars, never gave it another thought...it wasn't a big deal to most racers. The race was awsome.

Then I get home and see all this crap. Wow! The internet is like a different world. I know alot of guys that have basically quit racing since the switch to brushless here. This stuff will definetely keep them scared away.
All these threads about something the racers didn't even find beneficial. Wow.

I hate seeing stuff like this...



So anyways. Congratulations Arnie on the win, Pete on the TQ, and Frank for running so well with hardly any practice. You guys put on a hell of a show.

Probably the best post I have read on any of these stupid threads. Well Kevin's initial post was pretty good too! haha...


-Adam

I recently got out of r/c racing, but after being involved in the industry as a racer, race promotor, hobbyshop employee, and manufacturer employee for over 18 years, I've decided to compile a list for the "average racer" of ways to "cheat". In this case, the word "cheat" is defined as things you can do to modify your equipment from the way it comes out of the package/box to increase performance, but will mostly likely not get penalized for because there is not a rule in place that says you CAN'T do it......Oh, and FYI, in most cases, there's also not a rule that says you CAN.....

1) Cut out the back of your body...at most races, in most classes, most do it, even though there is usually NOT a rule that says you CAN, it's just assumed because people have done it, not penalized, so I'll do it

2) True your tires.....they didn't come at 2.15" diameter out of the package

3) Cut up your chassis to add flex

4) Remove bi-level from wing (if applicable)

5) Polish kingpins, trim steering blocks, trim upper eyelets in front end (commons mods to make front end free and smooth)

6) Change wire guage on your ESC wires

7) OH....and timing ring modification to put more timing in B/L motor LOL

The fact is, most of the racers who are complaining about people exploring ways to make their equipment faster, are hypocrits. They're doing the same things they're whining about, just maybe not in ALL areas, but definetely some areas. If you're one of the ones complaining loudly, I really hope you aren't running a Pro-built car, with a well built front end, race-sized tires, a 4-cell Novak GTB with bigger wire put on and a BRL cover, and a body with rake or not cut at the body lines(and there IS a rule that says you have to do that). The top racers who are made out to be the BAD guys, are just thourough(sp?) enough to do it in all aspects of their equipment, not just the ones they hear about from their buddies(because you and your buddies couldn't think of the others on your own). And for the most part, all this DOES NOT effect YOU..why? because all the attention to detail isn't aimed at making people like Pete D, Arnie, Frank, etc 4laps faster than the "average racer" instead of 3laps, it's aimed at the top guys maybe having a shot at TQ at the birds, instead of settling for a 4th place qualifying effort. While the innovation in chassis mods may have cost you the "A" main, I guarantee the motor mods DIDN'T.

The whole problem with it all, is that most "average racers" want racing to be SPEC, but don't want it to be called that because it hurts their pride. Many say they've run the same B/L motor for year.....that's great...why not make the motors completely sealed, no oiling, no rotor changes, no bearing changes....run for a year, and dispose of....costs you $75/year for motor expense, with the secure feeling all the motors are the same and not tampered with. Not a bad idea, except, you'd probably then complain that you couldn't buy a fresh rotor after 6months, or put ceramic bearings in....to make you just a tick faster to get the advantage.

People need to understand that things like Brushless motors(and Lipo batts) are relatively new technology to the racing part of the industry. I'm sure the first 5 years a brushed motor EVER EXISTED in racing, they weren't twisting comms, shortstacking arms, zapping magents, maybe not even changing brushes/springs..etc.... Their will ALWAYS be innovation, and if promotors/orgainizations deem it "outside the spirit of the rules", then they will make/alter the rule, and move on....and the racers will adapt. I'm sure the rules for brushed motors changes ALOT in the last 30 years, as you should expect Brushless motor rules to change ALOT in the next 30. If you don't think that will happen you're being VERY niave. If you don't admire/appreciate/accept innovation(like I do), then you need to swallow your pride and run a SPEC class, or form your own class/orgainization/league and run your rules, and be content with that.

I think that's enough expressing for now! lol Opinions welcome!!

Kevin......Kevin.....Kevin....I love you man!!!!!!!!!

Kevin......Kevin.....Kevin....I love you man!!!!!!!!!

You know he is lovin this!!!!:woohoo:
(even if he is wrong...lol)

Speaking of Kevin:

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/signs138.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

I did some testing, I figured out that a old tekin dyno works pretty good for testing brushless motors.. Avancing the timing on a brushless motor nets about the same resalts as it did on a brushed motor. As you turn it up, the RPM goes up but the torqe goes down. So your not actualy gaining any perfomance your just changing the performance. So what you gain at the end of the straitaway you loose coming out of the corner. it looks like the best place to set it at is, about half way. that seems to net about the best overall perfomance.

AL

that was me adam the crackin all the jokes didnt mean to make ya mad just bs on here:)you going to run the outdoor nats at easley?

I did some testing, I figured out that a old tekin dyno works pretty good for testing brushless motors.. Avancing the timing on a brushless motor nets about the same resalts as it did on a brushed motor. As you turn it up, the RPM goes up but the torqe goes down. So your not actualy gaining any perfomance your just changing the performance. So what you gain at the end of the straitaway you loose coming out of the corner. it looks like the best place to set it at is, about half way. that seems to net about the best overall perfomance.

AL

Is the Tekin dyno similar to the Trinity dyno? If so how did you hook it up?

Thanks

Paul

that was me adam the crackin all the jokes didnt mean to make ya mad just bs on here:)you going to run the outdoor nats at easley?

Haha naw it's cool. I wasn't mad at you, I was just getting tired of all the crap.

Not sure about Easley, when is it?


-Adam Liehr

the nats are august 6th -10th it'll be hot but it's the nats it'll be fun.:cool: with all the classes to run there will be racin all over the place.:woohoo:

Okay. I'll have to see what happens over the summer. My work schedule goes crazy.



-Adam

Paul, The tekin dyno has a slave motor that uses risistors to apply a 20 or 30 amp load to the motor being tested. it also has power leads that would normally be connected to the motor being tested. I use them to power the speed control.