SO whats the deal with the timing rings? Since 97% of the country follows BRL rules, what is the BRL's position on what went on at the Birds this year with people removing the timing rings and grinding off tabs?


BTW Sonny when you read this thanks for the antenna.

Davepull, how many guys do you think were doing this modification at the birds? Was it specific to one class mostly? I don't know anyone that did it.

I know I had plenty of rip to make the A-main in 10.5 I just didn't have the setup as good and can't drive as good as the A-main guys. Jason Nick finished 3rd in 13.5 and there is nothing special done to his motor, plus is car was off.

I'm interested in knowing more about this modification, that's all, and skepticle to how many people actually did the mod and if it really even helps.

The brushless critics are gonna eat this stuff up!
:rolleyes:

Personally, I think the timing thing was bullshit and it shud not have been allowed!!!! When i found out what was going on and it was legal for the race, myself and Arnie pulled a motor down together just to see what was being done to them. We were able to crank the timing between 12 & 30 more degrees!!! I gave the motor to one of my teammates to try in practice to see if it made a difference! It did make a slight difference once we geared it down 3 teeth from a stock motor!, It had quicker times for the first 2 minutes, about the same times for the 3rd minute and slightly slower or equal for the 4th minute. So its up in the air weather it waz better thru out a full 4 minute run.... Arnie and myself decided to stick with bone stock 10.5 motors and try outrun the twisted motors with stock ones!..... Bone stock 10.5 motors placed 1st and 2nd in 10.5.

In order to grind the timing ring and add timing, the endbell behind the timing ring needs to be unsoldered from the windings!!! IMO that's bullshit that those motors werent DQ'd!! In BRL rules im pretty sure it states that there is to be no tampering with the endbell. Unsoldering windings is tampering in my book!

Tommy I don't have an exact amount but I know people where doing it.

Frank thanks for the info and the honesty. fact is Boylan was asked if it was legal and he said yes. so technically these people did nothing wrong.

but I think it is time to do something.

IMO i dont think that is much different than cranking a stock arm!

if they charged timing why is the 13.5 class top 30 drivers with in 5 seconds?

uhhhhhhhh uuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh uuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh 10.5 Beavis

There were only about 10 cars at the birds good enough to have benifited from the cranked timing!

You know that this will be addressed by Sonny very quickly, keep an eye on the RULES package.


It was great to see "unaltered motors" come to the front and win....great race by both Frank and Arnie.

The Team GFRP 300 at Summit was won in 13.5 by an out of the package motor,,So keep working on setup and quit trying to find lighting in screwdriver.

Wolfman

Put the timing adjustment into the Speedo's and the issue is resolved. No reason to go into the motors.

I agree with Frank......the difference can only be seen in a car thats capable of TQ.


Deel

it definetly took the drive right out of me, couldnt do any good for any of us running legal cause we had no time to practice with the cheater motors, issue wasnt known until sat night so us runnin legal didnt have all week to find roll out on them as others did, yes total bullshit! oh well sonny will get things figured out! still had a blast and good to see CHEATERS NEVER WIN! good job to all the guys who sanded there ass!

I don't know what Sonny plans to do - but after talking to a few at the race...OUR SERIES will have a NO MODIFICATION rule in place...

Just one more piece of BS we have to deal with to curb those who will go to ANY length to SCREW this crap up.....

If that doesn't work WE will implement a PUT YOUR MOTOR IN A BOX and DRAW IT to Race rule....or a $5.00 CLAIM Rule w/ a motor exchange.

We'll find a way to NIP this...

NOTE: I can't/won't call this 'cheating', because someone found a unwritten GRAY area...but it's B.S. all the same

unsoldering the windings is extreamly grey! lol.

I knew it would only be a mader of time entill someone messes with motors. I didnt think it would be this long!!

Personally, I think the timing thing was bullshit and it shud not have been allowed!!!! When i found out what was going on and it was legal for the race, myself and Arnie pulled a motor down together just to see what was being done to them. We were able to crank the timing between 12 & 30 more degrees!!! I gave the motor to one of my teammates to try in practice to see if it made a difference! It did make a slight difference once we geared it down 3 teeth from a stock motor!, It had quicker times for the first 2 minutes, about the same times for the 3rd minute and slightly slower or equal for the 4th minute. So its up in the air weather it waz better thru out a full 4 minute run.... Arnie and myself decided to stick with bone stock 10.5 motors and try outrun the twisted motors with stock ones!..... Bone stock 10.5 motors placed 1st and 2nd in 10.5.

In order to grind the timing ring and add timing, the endbell behind the timing ring needs to be unsoldered from the windings!!! IMO that's bullshit that those motors werent DQ'd!! In BRL rules im pretty sure it states that there is to be no tampering with the endbell. Unsoldering windings is tampering in my book!

It certainly was not within the spirit of the rules. Glad that you and Arnie proved it wasn't the way to go anyway.

just hear another one. that there are people taking 2 windings off a bad 10.5 motor to make it a good 10.5 and still meter good.

just hear another one. that there are people taking 2 windings off a bad 10.5 motor to make it a good 10.5 and still meter good.

that really wouldnt suprise me...... Sonny will take care of any grey areas for the BRL rules! count on that.

Frank,

Being I wasn't there - I can't call what was done 'cheating' cause I haven't seen them.

I can only hear rumors from the WEST COAST - but being a guy who's always involved in 'RULES' it's just plain SAD that we may need to write a rule book that lists EXACTLY everything that CAN and CAN'T be done to a Motor, Batter, Body, Chassis, Tires, Etc...

We've had rules in the past that basically said "IF THERE ISN'T A RULE ADDRESSING IT - IT'S ILLEGAL" maybe that would be enough to cover it at the race tech descretion...w/o challenge.

just hear another one. that there are people taking 2 windings off a bad 10.5 motor to make it a good 10.5 and still meter good.

I don't know much about inductance but, wouldn't taking windings off change the inductance thus, create an "illeagal" meter reading?

Sonny is the man but here is another one. guys were running crappy 8.5's that metered out to a great 10.5

Frank,

Being I wasn't there - I can't call what was done 'cheating' cause I haven't seen them.

I can only hear rumors from the WEST COAST - but being a guy who's always involved in 'RULES' it's just plain SAD that we may need to write a rule book that lists EXACTLY everything that CAN and CAN'T be done to a Motor, Batter, Body, Chassis, Tires, Etc...

We've had rules in the past that basically said "IF THERE ISN'T A RULE ADDRESSING IT - IT'S ILLEGAL" maybe that would be enough to cover it at the race tech descretion...w/o challenge.

The nascar cover all rule. the US armed services also have a law in the uniform code of mulitary justice. if I remember it's article 32. basically if you screw up and there aint a rule for what you did this rule covers it. lol that would be a great idea.

I don't know much about inductance but, wouldn't taking windings off change the inductance thus, create an "illeagal" meter reading?


yes it does but there is a range that the motors must fall in. and if you have one that is at the high end unwinding it will bring it to the low end.

It was decided to be legal for the race once it was found sat nite. so it wasnt cheating at that race. I personally didnt care if people were doing it or not cause it obviously wasnt helpn them much! .... There is a class for all that motor tweeking! its called open mod. My 10.5 car i felt was a tight pos all weekend so the people tweeking there timing are gonna have to find alot more than that to keep up at the next big race!

frankie i hear yah brother. what happened in the past with timing and such happened and the people who did it did nothing wrong because Mike Boylan said it was ok. alot of is feel that it isn't ok or is just going to lead to alot of headaches. so there should be a rule outlawing it and I am sure like you said Sonny will set the record straight.

Sonny assured me the grey will be black and white by week's end. Said it would not be done Mon or Tuesday only because of traveling back and catching up at work. I am sure it will be a huge shocker at the next BRL event when what is commonly known as the rule is clarified yet again. It was never grey in his book b/c he said he would invoke Rule#1 imediately, which is simply part of having rules....ENFORCING THEM.

Its long been a game of chicken between those who want to make rules and those who want to be "cool", "smart", or just plain sneaky with what is written. Almost always those who pen the rules blink first and never stand by what is written. Just like the internet, it is easy to post one thing, and pretend it does not exist later just to not have a problem in real life, which is gutless in my opinion. By the amount of threads for new classes, racing organizations, etc, it is easy to write rules....but who enforces them? Big hint, whoever takes your entry money.

BTW...Whoever says the racers should, is nuts. I could have ran quietly to the hole in the rules and looked for an advantage like those who (unfortunately) tried. Those who did were clearly in the "right" if that was how the rule was going to be called this past weekend. However in the same motion they knew it was not "above-board" and tried to take those who did not know for fools. That is what irked me, what are you earning when the entire field of racers thinks it is NOT legal since it says BRL Rules and we respect Sonny's authority to call the rules? That was the point of me blowing up at the Bird's, to simply call it into the open.

it was a "grey" area when kisbey wound 13 turn 19 turn motors! when does "grey" become illegal? and all of this to win a bowling trophy? very sad and now jhoe public racer will feel cheated.....

this may be a bad analogy but......in texas holem if you show your cards you must show them to the entire table....if a few guys knew about the timming thing everyone should have been told about it........at least than guys could have broken out there soldering irons and dremel tools,lol.

arnie congrats on your win and frank second ain't bad either!

when do we start to call a cheater a cheater and ask them to leave the track?

WE NEED TO MAKE SOMEONE AN EXAMPLE! the rest will fall in line real quick!

Handling grey areas is pretty easy. The race director says congratulations on your ingenuity, but you may not run that motor again and what you did is now illegal. Make everyone else at the track aware of it and that it is now illegal and it is a done deal. If you modified your motor that's a bummer, go the hobby shop and buy a new one.

Kat1fish: I am not about putting people's heads on sticks for cheating, simply call it out and move on, and leave the drama for the internet tire kickers. That is why no one wants to tech anything, because to do it everyone assumes you are calling them a cheater first. That approach needs to vanish, along with other crap...

Ultimate compliment in racing, being accused of cheating when you aren't. What a great feeling it is to turn over that motor knowing you have lived right, if you can find someone to tech it.

With 12 people logged onto this thread at 11:45pm, we obviously care enough for either the drama or the rules. Either way stand up for the rules, you will get both at the same time everyday. Support those who call the rules, like the BRL.

Like Arnie said If there was a grey area I think its covered right here!!!!!

Section 1 - General Rules

1.1 ) Rules apply to classes within the BRL and are intended to provide guidelines for fair competition. In the event a rule is not covered in this package the BRL will have the right to adjust or amend rules at any time.


I still am shocked that they let it get by and the thing that really sucks is now Joe Smoe racer in the R-Main now has this idea that all the top 10 cars were cheating which perpetuates lots of bad feelings and frustration right down the line.

Arnie,
Congrats on your win there buddy. After Paved Nats and snowbirds If I were you I would be booking tickets for corey wherever your racing next lol.

I still am shocked that they let it get by and the thing that really sucks is now Joe Smoe racer in the R-Main now has this idea that all the top 10 cars were cheating which perpetuates lots of bad feelings and frustration right down the line.


THAT's the facts right there... In this hobby/sport Perception is reality and if it's thought you are cheating - you are probably going to get labled that way regardless if it's true or not.

I've forwarded some of these (and Katfish's) comments to Bob. The guys just returned from SBs yesterday, so I haven't heard details about this yet.

Let's look at more than just timing how bout the inductance readings that were barely legal. 5 points less should not be acceptable! If you run a 36.5uH verses a 31.8uH then I think we all know who has the upper hand. Novak has an issue or there is more funny business than just timing!

Let's assume you call this a "grey area" for not being specifically addressed and spelled out in the rule book ........... When it came to light what was going on the powers that be should have made it known, while it wasnt specifically forbidden because maybe they or apparently alot of us never thought about doing that sort of thing ......... deem it illegal from that point on ........... period. Sonny , Mike or any other race promotor borrow this line from the NASCAR rule book .......... paraphrased but reads similar to......... "The final ruling on any unforseen race event pertaining to rules is at the discretion of the nascar official(s) in charge" .

Guys I don't want to get into a big debate on this. I will simply say that updates will be made to out rules package in the next 10 days to clear up some of the gray areas.

I will also say I don't think we have had many issues in the past at our event and will do my best to keep that way in the future. Most understand the spirit and intent of out rules package it to make racing fair and fun. For the most part I think we have been very successful in doing so.

As the competition level continues to increase in our series I will do my best to curb some of the creative engineering and make our rule book more black and white.

Nobody is perfect. NASCAR has been in business for over 50 years and has a huge team of rules makers and technical inspectors, yet they still have to make modification to there rule book continuously. The BRL is not any different and we will always amend our rules package as needed.

Also please don’t turn my lack of clarification of some rules into a bashfest against Mike or the Snowbirds crew. They simply put on the best oval event in the country and make it better every time we go back.

Unfortunately over the last few years it has become too easy to get caught up in the competiveness of the race and totally overlook all the great times and memories that happen at this event. I learned a long time ago to take a step back and enjoy the event for what it is and not what's happening on the track.

Maybe we should all be thanking him for taking on the monumental task of planning all the details of this event and improving them year after year.

I believe that the racing was as close as ever in the 10.5 and 13.5 classes for this year's race. The top 36 in 13.5 were within 1 lap (that's almost half the field), and the top 16 in 10.5 within 1 lap with the top 4 in the A-main finished on the same straightaway. And in 13.5 not 1 car turned a 4.0 lap, but the top 50 turned a 4.1 or 4.2 lap. Was anyone tampering with timing? Maybe. But the results are so close it is hard to say. I made the call good or bad before the event that any timing was legal. I will learn from this for the next race. Do I think it affected the outcome of the race? No. So much is being learned with these new classes each day, from speed controls, to inductance, to rotors, cooling, etc.... but the results for me show a great race. I know some of you don't agree with my call, and I am OK with that. But this is no different that what happened each year in 19 turn here at the race. One year it was cranked comms, then lightened drilled arms, then P-94s, drilled timing rings, etc. This is how we have handled racing for years, and for sure will have a whole new set of rules and variables for 2009.

Sonny and Mike ........ good posts by both of you and you bring up some good points from your shoes. I know you'll make adjustments to correct it.

The racing was great and exciting and I think everyone had a great time regardless of those who pushed the envelope so to speak.

Decisions were made, agree to disagree ........ learn from what transpired and move on.

VERY Well said - by both Sonny and Mike..

I do NOT envy the guys in tech at a race like this - and we all know The 'birds event is unlike any other... even in the rules department.

WOULD YOU Want the Job or Teching all 600+ cars at this event? No Thank You - NOT ME...

The results of the oval 10.5 and 13.5 classes were AWESOME - and nobody can tell me that the wins didn't come from what happened "ON THE TRACK"

Great racing - exciting racing - fun to watch unfold all week long.

sonny way to stay on top of things! oval is back on the rise and things like this will only bring it back down!

In a way I'm glad what happened, happened. I know my local track has a lot of hesitation converting over to BL racing. Now that some of these so called rumors, facts, etc about cheating or (exploiting the grey areas) have been brought to light for the public to see we can set the rulebooks straight, move on and hopfully continue to implement BL racing into Oval with a positive outlook.

Another rumor (which again caused my local track to be hesitant to convert to BL) is that people have been taking the BL motors apart and rewinding them. I mentioned this to my buddy and he said that rewinding it will cause the motor to read lower on the inductance meter than the legal limit. But what if they person added enough wire to put the inductance back to where it needs to be.
Hopefully Sonny can cover this in the new updated rules.

Motor Inductance Chart* (FOR THE AVERAGE MOTOR)
Motor Model Bonded Rotor† Sintered Rotor† No Rotor†

SS4300 / 10.5 36.9 µH
SS5800 / 8.5 25.4 µH

THAT MEANS A 9.5 MOTOR-IF THERE WAS ONE WOULD READ CLOSE TO A 31.15 WHICH IS REAL CLOSE WHAT WAS DEAMED LEGAL IN THE A-MAIN OF 10.5.
LOOKS LIKE AN INDUCTANCE METER WILL BE THE NEW PHANTOM DYNO OF CHOICE.

Who deemed it legal?

Motor Inductance Chart* (FOR THE AVERAGE MOTOR)
Motor Model Bonded Rotor† Sintered Rotor† No Rotor†

SS4300 / 10.5 36.9 µH
SS5800 / 8.5 25.4 µH

THAT MEANS A 9.5 MOTOR-IF THERE WAS ONE WOULD READ CLOSE TO A 31.15 WHICH IS REAL CLOSE WHAT WAS DEAMED LEGAL IN THE A-MAIN OF 10.5.
LOOKS LIKE AN INDUCTANCE METER WILL BE THE NEW PHANTOM DYNO OF CHOICE.

Setting the record straight... Coming into this, I was told what was going on, and how it was being done. Pretty ironic since he's crying the loudest. Here's how it went. In practice, some motors had that special"timing" sound we all love. I asked if it was being policed since it always a grey area. I did it, blew one up, and returned to normal timing. Which was checked after every tq run, so I dont know why the crying continues. But after I made it no secret (apparently the only truthful one) Both Sonny and Mike asked me to help quiet things down. So I gave Pete a new, untouched motor right from Charlie for the last couple runs. It's hypocritical to me that the guy who has been thrown out of half the tracks on the east coast, and who told me about these tactics, wont let it go. If anything good comes out of this, perhaps Arnie wont be lapping the field at any 10.5 races in the future. From here, I will be making sure this stays as even as possible. I have all the respect in the world for Mike and Sonny, I'll be keeping an eye and ear open for anything that will help them keep this the great series it has become. I wont go into after the race tech no matter how low things read, we werent going to tarnish the race any further. The big picture was more important. Jim Dieter

LOL ok I didn't start this thread for the purpose of drama ya'll save that for your moma. lol serious there have been alot of good points made. the biggest issue is that the things are getting addressed. and rules are being made.

I'm surprised nobody has started selling "good" Novak Brushless motors yet. I would think the same people that make tuned brushed motors would be tuning and selling these by now?

Thanks for posting that Jim! I thought Pete's car got faster the last couple runs anyways, he didnt fall off near as much. He had a great car all weekend and noone can take that away from him! :thumbsup:

Have any of you every used a inductance meter or a Zubie meter on your motors?

Forget the cheating/ grey area Novak has a issue with producing consistent motors from one to the next. Yes they are close enough for a club race but when it comes to the SB and half the field is running 55 laps every second counts.

And yes I have plenty of data to support my claims. From inductance reading from 20+ motors, Zubie metering 30+ rotors, and plain and simple Turbo Dyno results.

The thought of buying a new motor will produce "New" horspower is smiply misleading. New motors are not always better then what you have. I learned that if you got a good one you better take care of it.

And ofcoarse, none of this means nothing without a good handling race car....lol


Deel

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lmao TP

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