As most of you know Pete has just about finished his rendition of Laguna Seca and I am as yet planning my road course for this summer. There has been lengthy discussion both on and off this forum between us and several other principals about what cars to run. Pete actually built his track with a specific type of car in mind, making it a challenge to that class without regard to other classes possibly racing there too. He did however think about the Tomy Turbo car as the upper end of the class allowance, in doing so he kept the chances of faster cars coming to race at Laguna Seca.

My track is still in the design stage. Daytona looks good but pricing the track out of the latest rendition I don’t have the cash to even begin that right now. People just are not buying cars like they used to, in the last 45 days I’ve sold 7 with just over $2000 going into my pocket. But with moving to an automotive super store and getting into a different shoppers market may change things, when I was in Fresno before I was able to clear the same amount at a multi-line dealership in two weeks. But I digress.

Pete has done a lot of research on Tomy open-wheelers. Essentially there are two body styles; those for the Turbo/SRT and those for the Super G-Plus. Chassis wise the Turbo and SRT cars are nearly identical, only the traction magnet and a few other pieces are different. But there are two different versions of the actual chassis pan; one for open wheelers and one for full body cars. The Super G-Plus however uses the same chassis for both and adds a body retaining clip to switch between the two body types. This is the big reason I’m pushing for the Super G-Plus car.

As with chassis style goes the body style. The Super G-Plus car allows the use of its own design of open wheel car as well as the prototype cars I wish to run. Tomy has available the Sauber Mercedes, Toyota 88 (or similar) and the Porsche 956/962 in several different liveries. I’ve also found several websites that still have the Jaguar Gp. 44 and XRJ cars and bodies separate as well as the Sauber and Toyota. I'm not sure what other cars have been produced but I have found a Peugeot LMP, and there is also the Panoz body availavble for the Turbo/SRT cars. Since these bodies also work on both the Turbo/SRT and the Super G+ they can even be classed by chassis and motor to open more classes or to satisfy a smaller track like Laguna Seca.

The point of my opening this discussion is to hear from you guys regarding how you feel about this idea. I’m sure Pete will chime in as well but he is like me; trying to decide on both the chassis and body to build a series around in 2008. I prefer the variety of the bodies available in Prototype class as opposed to the cookie-cutter open wheel cars currently available. Now it’s your turn.

There is also a Mazda GTP body that Tomy did (search Flea Bay HO slot cars for Japan or Mazda and you should be able to find one) but you will need to sell another car to get one as they usually go for upwards of $120.

At some point I'll probably spring for one and see if I can get HellonWheels8 to resin cast them from my master copy like I did with the Tyco open cockpit racer.

And I'd probably go the LMP or GTP route as well vs. going open wheel. With AFX coming out with an all new open wheel car and chassis this fall you can always revisit that option later.

My $.03 worth, adjusted for inflation.

Thanks 'doba. We don't want to ruin anyone's day by actually racing a high dollar collectible so we'll stick with readily to reasonably available. The Porsche 956/962’s are a bit long in the tooth design wise, I’m not sure if in the real world they saw racing against the Sauber’s, Toyota’s or Jaguar’s. And I’m quite sure the one single Peugeot didn’t but the whole point was having a same body “class”, meaning Prototype.

Pete’s already mentioned the Panoz and I’ve seen one open cockpit Toyota here on the boards, it’s not unlikely he would create his own somewhere down the line. This is something else that would have to be “weighed” with everything else; post market modifications. I’ve already seen his “Shorty” 962, an extensively shortened and modified Porsche body, and have begun my own petition to have that one banned, but resin casts would have to be considered, especially of unique modified stock body cars.

It’s a matter of getting a few of the cars now and testing at Laguna Seca with the Turbo, SRT and Super G-Plus chassis. When Eric and his crew went up from Bakersfield the track wasn’t nearly as complete as it is now, much of the elevation transitions were not done, and some are more pronounced now than they were in the initial layout. I saw some scrapping with the few Turbo's we had that used very low profile tires. Stock tires weren’t so bad and when sanded worked even better, but anything less than say .440 isn’t going to work because of the corkscrew with a neo magnet pulling it down.

I wish I had time now to respond to all of the points made so far but I don't.

First off, the Porsche body he's refering to isn't even a Tomy car, it's a Tyco HP-7 body that was done about 20 years ago to race in a modified stock class using hard plastic bodies.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z262/FresnoPete/MVC-795S.jpg

The orignally long wheelbase car was shortened both in front of the body/chassis mounts and behind. I would say that it is maybe half the original length and weight. But it was a "stock body" based car so in 1987 they had to allow it for that one race. It was promptly banned after that one race and has been in my box on it's original HP-7 chassis since then.

Next, I would not do (or permit to be done) any modification to the body as it comes from the mfg. That means that if an open cockpit Sauber Mercedes would be entered it would have to be a resin cast from a hard body I would have made. Since I don't resin cast, there's no worry... :) However, if a suitable resin caster ASKED me to do an open cockpit LMP car you better bet I would and it would be legal.

As far as a one chassis/many body rule the SG+ suits me just fine. I'm also fine with LMP bodies, less things to break off. But just expect some cars to be painted in schemes that they were never intended to be in, like my 1/32nd scale Red Bull Lancia was. I may do a Martini Lancia out of a Sauber, who knows.

Considering only the bodies that would work with the Super G+ body, both current and from the AFX days, and I came up with this short list:

Porsche 956/962
Toyota 88C
Sauber Mercedes
Jaguar Gp. 44
Jaguar XJR
SCD Panoz LMP-1
Ferrari 312
Ferrari 512
Ferrari 612
Porsche 510K
Porsche 908/3 Spyder (Resin-Greg Braun's site)
Shadow

I am excluding funky bodies like the "Can-Am Racer" because it really don't look like a current car. I did want to include the McLaren Can-Am car but I couldn't find one available, and I'm not sure how it would look on a SG+ chassis. There are some in readers collections I'm sure, if someone could put one on a Super G-Plus chassis and post a picture I'd appreciate it. Others on the list may not work with a Super G-Plus car since they were intended for just the regular G-Plus car and may have to be eliminated.

I'm pretty sure the Ferrari 312 will not fit on a SG+.. just so happens I tried to make it work last night, and was unsuccessful. :(

-roffutt

The group I race with run classes of SG+ f1 bodies, SG+ Group C bodies as well as Tomy turbo with afx Porsche 917 bodies. We used to mix and match bodies from different eras but now we have kept the classes grouped by similar years bodies. The cars look better on the track racing with their contemporaries IMHO. We run stock bodies no repops to avoid customized versions.

If you've never seen the group C cars race search on youtube for Lemans or Group C race footage from the late 80's. Most of the Tomy Group C cars produced raced together over the course of 4-5 years either at Lemans or in the World Sports Car Championship.

Doba- I'm unfamiliar with Tomy having done the Mazda body or are you refering to the Mada Nissan body? I wish they had done the Mazda 787 that won Lemans. It was an awesome paint scheme.

Pete-Are there any pics of the Laguna Seca track? That corkscrew must be awesome!!

F1, the track building section has a very long and extensive string of the track's progress. We're racing on it now even though I have a lot of stuff yet to do to it. I've scratched the F312 off the list, thanks for the info. I also forgot to include the Peugeot 905 so that's now back on.

Of the the best sources I've found so far is www.racingsportscars.com, and I've been using that as much as possible when cross checking what raced when. I think it would be nice to see an early 1970's Ferrari 512 running next to a Sauber Mercedes, but how they fit on the chosen chassis will be the stickler.

Nice work on the track Pete!
Thanks for the sports car link its great!
I remember seeing a huge accident with the Peugeot once on one of the European tracks. Can't remember where or who was driving but it was amazing they survived. It was a cool looking car at the time. Wish they had kept it up longer. I think iut only raced for about 2 seasons.

I thought they was coming back in LMP, maybe I just read an old artical. The crash is on youtube though, pretty horrific.

OK, since Pete is going to make me get a slot car lawyer on this one here's what I'll "stipulate" to:

Bodies designed for the current AFX line only. That means Tomy Turbo, SRT and Super G-Plus. This gives us seven bodies to work with.

1. Peugeot 905
2. Porsche 956/962
3. Toyota 88C
4. Sauber Mercedes
5. Jaguar XJR
6. SCD Panoz LMP-1
7. Anything resin cast so long as it would represent a car that turned a wheel in competetion from 1988 to the current era, as long as it mounts to the chassis with molded in body mounts.

I'm dropping the idea of the Group 44 car, I had one and it just didn't look that good.

On the topic of modifying cars, how about a yes so long as it resembles to a certain degree something that "might have been", like an open cockpit Sauber. You can also modify a car to look like another car so long as at least the spirit of the look is preserved. That way a Sauber can be crafted into a Lancia LC2 or something. But absolutely NO scratch built AMG bodies.

All this and we haven't even begun to talk chassis mods yet...

Slot car lawyer? Is there such a thing?

You guys might find this page cool. It has an excellent break down of the Tomy Group C GTP cars and their 1:1 counterpart backgrounds. Seems like you might know a lot of this but I discovered a few things I didn't know before. I also have 1/24 models of the Toyotas and Mercedes cars- GTP and IMSA cars have always been some of my favorite race cars. The Group C HO stuff is very popular in my group. ;)

http://members.cox.net/gunnerbill/ex001_mercedes_c.htm

-Scott

A question, In series where bodies are being run with wings and other details what is the protocol if during the race a racer crashes and breaks off the rear wing? If this happens unlike real race cars this can give that car a weight and weight bias advantage. What is the ruling? thanks. mj

A question, In series where bodies are being run with wings and other details what is the protocol if during the race a racer crashes and breaks off the rear wing? If this happens unlike real race cars this can give that car a weight and weight bias advantage. What is the ruling? thanks. mj

Penalty will be enforced! Busted wings and flappage must be repaired with duct tape wads during a mandatory pitstop. ;)

A question, In series where bodies are being run with wings and other details what is the protocol if during the race a racer crashes and breaks off the rear wing? If this happens unlike real race cars this can give that car a weight and weight bias advantage. What is the ruling? thanks. mj

Good question.
In our group if a wing or other piece falls off its ok to continue but must be firmly reattached for the next heat. We will sometimes power off and reattach during the race too if there are no objections. Generally no one takes advantage of this rule (ie building breakaway parts) as we have a pretty fair and honest group of racers.
In our 12 hr race all parts must be reglued immediately while others race on.

Penalty will be enforced! Busted wings and flappage must be repaired with duct tape wads during a mandatory pitstop. ;)When I hear duct tape I think of this old Sunoco Lola picture: :p

http://www.planetofspeed.com/discus/messages/2784/669.jpg

That's pretty much how we do it too; if you break it off it must be back on by the next heat. That site is what I'm looking for exactly, thanks!

I ordered a Castorl Jag and a spare Sauber body from Lucky Bob's today, I'm going to see if I can make a Mazda 787 from the Sauber. If I can maybe a resin caster can step up and cast it for me (and others).

Lucky Bob's. Sounds like a bar. I would have done the Lancia from the Sauber not the Mazda but what do I know. But that is what I'm talking about, modifying some to look like something else without altering the original handling by reducing weight or whatever.

I have those cars plus a Panoz coming from BRS, once they arrive I'll set the track back up and do a few days of testing with Matt. I'll give the Super G+ a chance but I just think it'll be too fast on this track. Of course, Indy was built for cars to go 100 mph on but we're already almost sub-3 seconds for Turbo's and I think that's plenty fast.

This has been a pivotal week for Laguna Seca. I’ve had to consider what to run here, and have gotten pressure from all of the principals locally who intend to come and race here. Besides you fine people I have maybe a dozen locals that have been following this project, have come to see and run a few laps, and provide input.

To be fair to Martin and a few others I did have a good time running a Super G-Plus and an SRT car on the track, but running laps in the two and a quarter second range is just too fast for this track. A de-slot can cost you not just a lap, but possibly laps depending on where you go off, and laps, plural, would be difficult to make up with clean driving. With the Thunderjets, X-Tractions and even Turbos if you go off and are running a 3-second lap chances are you won’t go down that far before someone gets you back on the track.

I have some cars coming, a Super G-Plus with a Jaguar body, a Mercedes body as a spare and a Panoz with a Turbo chassis. It has been and continues to be my desire to have a Panoz/Turbo series since they are inexpensive at $20 (from Brian at BRS) and Patto’s makes a handful of decals for both the coupe and roadster. But I also want to have other prototype bodies allowed as well, like the Sauber, Jaguar and Toyota. This gives us four contemporary bodies to deal with and the Turbo chassis that is at the upper performance end for the track. My feeling is that this is good enough to attract the type of competition I’d like to see on such a small track.

By keeping car costs down I hope to host no less than 18 Tomy Turbo chassis LMP cars. By buying bodies and chassis separate I can get the cars I want and with a great selection of decals from Patto’s do them in real world LMS style cars. By building/owning the cars I can have Fly In/Drive participants who wouldn’t otherwise go racing, and also be able to have an event this Memorial Day at the Community Center. I already have six participants who have agreed to build two car teams, one for them to drive and another for someone else. That’s 12 cars, well on my way to my goal of 18.

If eighteen cars would be built the series could begin as soon as May, I already have a program written for that many cars with a 30 minute final heat. The entire program would take about three hours using timed heats and mains. The program is re-definable in equal numbers as long as we have at least 8 cars. This allows each team to build their first car and run a series before expanding to a two car team. Track owned cars would be used as field fillers.

Last year I had wonderful donations from a lot of you guys to make the Mini-Indy a success, this year I have my own local loyal racers who will be making two car teams to allow selected youngsters from the community center I work at to also race. And wait until you see the sponsors those loyal racers have chosen. Already I have teams from Target, Big Gulp/7-Eleven, Red Bull and Cup of Soup/Dragon/Panoz. I’ll make sure you guys get to see things as they progress.

Pete if you need a couple more cars for the kids let me know, you know I am up for it..


Dave
dave@coach61.com

Thanks Dave, this time the adult racers are going to take the kids under their wing and teach them, but the cars will remain the property of the adult racers. Racing an oval at 9 volts is going to be quite different than a road course at 12 volts. Last year I gave away 5+ boxes of car stuff and none of them have anything left. And he's one of the prinicpals I'll be building two cars for myself. Turbo chassis are cheap, the bodies aren't and that's where some of the guys are worried. So far Lucky Bob's is the only place we've found loose bodies, and then only Toyota's, Saubers and the older Gp. 44 Jag's. Brian has the Panoz, which is the cheapest of the alternatives so those are the ones the kids will get.

I'll build a two car team if I can find two XRJ's and do the XRJ-9 Silk Cut cars, the white with the purple and yellow spines. Other than the multicolored purple one that was the best looking one IMHO. The only problem with this that I can see is everyone running to one body style once they figure out whick one works the best. And if you allow modifications into other cars that might present a problem unless you can document the car. The Tomy bodies are a very liberal representation of the real car. Also, I'd have to push for a spec tire rule.

Martin I have a Peugeot on the way for you already. If you want Jags buy the Castrol car and just repaint them. I haven't found a Silk Cut car or body very cheap. We will have a SPEC tire rule but what it is just yet I don't know. It will be something simple though, like AJ's black cats and they will be supplied at the races as part of the entry fee. If we get going too fast I'm just going to have everyone yank their traction magnets out and that should do it, I'm not dropping the power down from 12 volts.

The track will be back up this weekend for some racing but I have to have it back down by Tuesday. I'm having surgery again on my right foot and will be in a boot for 8 weeks, no weight on it for at least 4 weeks so it's doubtful I'll be racing like I hoped on the 24th. We'll see if the other principals still want to run or just put it off until March and have the Turbo series.