I THOUGHT I WOULD POST THIS FOR YOUR READING ENJOYMENT OR ??? YOU MAKE THE CALL!

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=201646

Looks like the future is now!

boy this is going to be interesting over the next few seasons i think im going to get out my swat gear for the track and my son can switch to slot cars

I guess my question is why such a high mAh rating? Haven't most clubs agreed on the 3200 packs? Wouldn't this just again split the already slim classes we have? I dont really know that much about Lipos yet, but I am guessing that a higher mAH will produce more power? Although they are 7.4 volts, so what is the diff?

Thanks
Joel White

Oh yeah, and if this is the direction you go you may want to get one of these.

http://www.racers-edge.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=24882&cat=334&page=1

I am not saying the lipos are bad by posting this, I just dont want to see anything happen. Just like the cells we use now, you should take every precaution while charging.

I've skimmed through the above post and most of what is being said is correct.

Over the last 6 moths I've talked with several key industry people both inside and outside of racing and they have all independently confirmed the same thoughts. This is why I have been reluctant to get behind the LiPo push. I can see this becoming a more expensive version of the longevity problems that we have now with NiMh.

For certain classes like off-road, dirt oval, or mod touring these charging/cycling techniques will probably not be an issue. But in any stock, or restricted motor class with high traction (carpet oval or on-road) we will see that significant performance gains can be made.

Another concern is the rate of LiPo cell development of the next 24 months which will be more intense than ever. Yes the performance will likely improve but this advance will come at a cost to the racer. History has proven that every time we get a new cell it only benefit is increased speed. We certainly don't see a monetary savings or increased number of racers at the track.

I don't want to come off as pretending to have all of the answers, because I don't. I am concerned that to many racers look at what makes them fast today and do not worry about the future. But if you’re a track owner, race promoter, or work within the industry you probably look at things from a little different prospective.

I THOUGHT I WOULD POST THIS FOR YOUR READING ENJOYMENT OR ??? YOU MAKE THE CALL!

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=201646

I'd like to hear what you guys think of this ...

Steve.






http://www.rctech.net/forum/images/quotes/quot-top-left.gifQuote:http://www.rctech.net/forum/images/quotes/quot-top-right.gif http://www.rctech.net/forum/images/quotes/quot-by-left.gifOriginally Posted by Tornado_Racing [View (http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4097204#post4097204)] http://www.rctech.net/forum/images/quotes/quot-by-right.gifhttp://www.rctech.net/forum/images/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gif*****WARNING: The below info is for experienced racers only. SMC and EA Motorsports do not recommend the following procedures. They deem them UNSAFE and will not assume responsibility for personal injury or property damage.*****






1. Do not attempt to use the following info on any other Lipo packs other than SMC 4000/5000 packs.
2. The following will decrease the life of your pack by at least 3/4.
3. The more the following process is repeated the greater chances are for FIRE dangers.
4. D0 NOT leave your pit area while performing the following procedures.
5. If a FIRE is caused do not use water or conventional fire extinguishers. USE SAND and smother the fire out.
6. Due to mis-use the manufacturers warranty will be void.


CHARGING (CE Lipo updated GFX)
12000mah or 12 amps
2 cell 8.40 peak
(90-95 degree temps)
DO NOT hook up sensor leads

DISCHARGE (CE Updated Lipo GFX)
35 amp
2 cell 6.0 cut-off
(140-150 degree temps)
Hook up sensor leads

CONDITIONING (CE Updated Lipo GFX)
Cycle, Cycle, Cycle...............
Charge then discharge several times prior to racing.

Under high end racing conditions 2 packs are needed. Cycle the pack using the above info and do not delay in-between discharge and charging. When the pack is done discharging go directly into a charge. With the SMC packs 3-4 cycles will "top out" the pack. Many other Lipo packs took 7-10 cycles and still did not top out.

When you are done with your heat/qualifier dump the pack and go right back into a charge.

At the end of your main or day of racing dump the pack done and store without charge. More than 2 weeks do not discharge your pack.

RE-PEAKING

*****Again this is VERY dangerous and can cause serious personal injury.*****

After the pack has completed a normal charge, re-peak with your Lipo GFX on NIHM mode at 10 amps. Let the pack overcharge to 9.00 volts and then stop the GFX. DO NOT WALK AWAY during this process as the pack will catch fire.
*****WARNING: The above info is for experienced racers only. SMC and EA Motorsports do not recommend the above procedures. They deem them UNSAFE and will not assume responsibility for personal injury or property damage.*****
http://www.rctech.net/forum/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gif

Not a surprise at all. LiPO can be a good thing for club racing when everyone stays within the spirit of what the class and racing in general ought to be about. But, for trying to use them at big races they'll be no better than what we have now and possibly a lot worse.

Roar has stated a voltage of 8.44 is the max going to the track or DQ. Tracks better follow suit or this will be the norm!

And that will teched quickly and accurately how?

Also, what if abuse doesn't really change the fully charged no load voltage, but alters the discharge curve instead.

And that will teched quickly and accurately how?

Also, what if abuse doesn't really change the fully charged no load voltage, but alters the discharge curve instead.

I guess a volt meter! Lipos plug in so maybe just plug in after they check and maybe do away with some other tech like Roof height to save time. Teching cars isn't done at club events like it should be for many reasons but this is one that might have to be done to be able to use the Lipo's.

Based on the tests they said they had like 8.80 volts going to the track!

Better ask Tony what the voltage was cause he did the testing not me and maybe you can ask Dawn how they will check voltage accurately cause Roar made the rule.

Pat, Maybe you can present the problems with teching this quickly and accurately so we might all learn what problems lay ahead!

After the pack has completed a normal charge, re-peak with your Lipo GFX on NIHM mode at 10 amps. Let the pack overcharge to 9.00 volts and then stop the GFX. DO NOT WALK AWAY during this process as the pack will catch fire


my comments are in reference to this not the cycling cause I Don't see the cycling as the dangerous part, but maybe I am wrong.

To answer Steve:

I posted on the RCTech forum that I was concerned (as a track owner) about giving this information out as public knowledge, particularly about overcharging. I also PM'ed Danny a bit (which for me was beneficial, as Danny cleared up a few things for me). Main concern is "that guy" we all have at our tracks that doesn't pay attention and/or has the "if some is good, more is better" approach to charging. Saying that overcharging is dangerous is one thing. This post (IMO) was more like posting how to make explosives out of household cleaners on Nickelodeon- then telling the kids not to do it because it's unsafe.

We kinda wanted to hold on LiPo's for this season, citing safety concerns (indoor carpet track) as well as some concern that there's no rules for them, but didn't have a leg to stand on once IB's started popping. So, we allowed them, but required items such as LiPo Sacks (which went over "ok"), hard cases, etc. With this recent thread on RCTech, some of the racers that once grumbled are happy with our decision (ROAR's decision to mandate them helped as well)

I've fought the LiPo movement, and gone against LiPo nation at times. But, it's not the pack I'm scared about, it's "that guy" charging them. NiMh normally vent when overcharged. LiPo can catch fire, and that concerns me.

Steve- you and I talked briefly about this at Maximus... Seeing this information- what's YOUR opinion?

Pat, Maybe you can present the problems with teching this quickly and accurately so we might all learn what problems lay ahead!

I'm not Pat (he's smarter than me :) ) but from a track's standpoint, it's not the big races where this will be a big problem, it's the local club racing where we're all on the "honor system" in terms of tech. If we have to stop and check voltage of everyone's pack, that'll take time out of the night. It's not the point of putting a VM on the leads, it's the time it takes doing 30 of them a night.

:thumbsup:

my thought and concern on this issue is the approach

Danny made a comment on RCTech several months ago that he would set out to PROVE an advantage could be found and batteries could be FORCED to perform better and from what I remember of his post he said he would SPEND as much as it took to prove it.

Where most racers are looking for something than can run a little more maintenance free and worry free - some people having that "MUST WIN AT ALL COST" attitude will try to destroy ANY and EVERYTHING that could possibly make things a little smoother, easier and better if PEOPLE leave it alone.

Yeah when you are the ONLY Team at a big race (or even a small club race) with a TON MORE POWER and you have that single days worth of ADVANTAGE - maybe it makes you feel really good to win because you had a Mechanical advantage for that instant...but by NEXT WEEK everyone will have that same advantage..and it won't be advantage anylonger...just a LIABILITY and a HAZARD.

...hey - I know a GOOD WAY to get More performace out of a 4 cell battery pack...that will give you 25% more VOLTAGE












Add a 5th cell!




kinda breaks the spirit of RULES though...doesn't it?

ANYONE caught pulling this kind of crap with the LIPO batteries should be BANNED FROM ALL RACING for LIFE and I don't care if it's a 20 time WORLD CHAMPION - and if ANY TEAM has instructions or orders from the TEAM OWNER to do this method...maybe..just MAYBE that entire TEAM should be banned as well!~ at leat IMHO!

I'm not Pat (he's smarter than me :) ) but from a track's standpoint, it's not the big races where this will be a big problem, it's the local club racing where we're all on the "honor system" in terms of tech. If we have to stop and check voltage of everyone's pack, that'll take time out of the night. It's not the point of putting a VM on the leads, it's the time it takes doing 30 of them a night.

:thumbsup:

Yeah I know what you mean, but maybe Pat had something else that we didn't think of that he has thought about.

Time is the reason many clubs don't tech. Maybe spot teching with a huge penalty if caught will keep people honest. Hopefully! :thumbsup:

I didn't have anything specific in mind, but similar to the way it has been proven that charging technique will gain you an edge. I believe it could be proven that you can pass the no load voltage spec and still gain yourself an edge. That is all.

Our NiMH cells could last a very long time if we stayed within the spirit of competition and treated them very differently then we do, but it will never happen. LiPOs are no different.

The real issue I see, aside from some moron burning down the building is that people have built these things up so much that if we switch people will be in for major disappointment.

I guarantee you will see guys with 10 LiPO packs sitting on their pit bench at big races and at teh end of the race 8 in a garbage can. When other guys spend a bunch of money to switch to these and see this it will be a mjor disappointment for them

..I understand that "PUSHING the ENVELOPE" is part of why a lot of people get involved in Racing - I just hope if the LINE is pushed into a DANGER ZONE - and ANYONE GETS hurt in the process - THAT person who crosses the line and EVERYONE else who helped make that PUSH - is PROSECUTED on Charges of Wreckless Endangerment, and/or any other applicable charges.

I know because some are willing to SPEND an unforseen amount of MONEY in order to win their little bowling trophy - people WILL have ONE RUN Lipo Packs just as they had with NiCads and NiMh's.

Heck - myself I already have now 8 packs of 3200 lipos - Not sure HOW the heck that happened - (I think they are multiplying in my box) but with that I can see some guys will show up with DOZENS of packs, no different than the older batteries....

Based on what I have read from "Linger on RCTECH" who is the person with the most knowledge on Lipos is that the only thing the cycling does is warm the pack and that can be accomplish by simply warming it before and during charging. Not sure we really learned anything from the whole thing other than it will be faster if you charge to 9.0 volts which can be checked as far as I know.

Racers will try almost anything so you are most likely correct, Pat!

good thing I plan on BQ for the birds in the lipo class. I am not going to charge my packs @ 12 amps, it's just stupid. When we open our carpet track anyone found charging @ a level above 1c will go home, no questions asked!

haha i knew it was gonna happen.

..I understand that "PUSHING the ENVELOPE" is part of why a lot of people get involved in Racing - I just hope if the LINE is pushed into a DANGER ZONE - and ANYONE GETS hurt in the process - THAT person who crosses the line and EVERYONE else who helped make that PUSH - is PROSECUTED on Charges of Wreckless Endangerment, and/or any other applicable charges.

I know because some are willing to SPEND an unforseen amount of MONEY in order to win their little bowling trophy - people WILL have ONE RUN Lipo Packs just as they had with NiCads and NiMh's.

Heck - myself I already have now 8 packs of 3200 lipos - Not sure HOW the heck that happened - (I think they are multiplying in my box) but with that I can see some guys will show up with DOZENS of packs, no different than the older batteries....

I have ** ONE ** 3200 LiPo pack in my box. I run the same pack ALL DAY. It runs as fast the first practice run as it does in the main. The performance is awesome with the 21.5 motor !

I think the key to this class continue to grow as fast as it already is -- is making it a SPEC class right out of the gate. Specify ONE battery to be allowed. Period. LiPo WILL be less expensive than 4-cell. But if you have no SPEC battery rule, then yes guys will spend a fortune on buying every kind of pack they can get their hands on. I've been running several weeks now on the same ONE pack. It's real.

it won't happen here! We have always had a great group of racers here in Macon, anyone who wants to rock the boat can expect to walk the plank!!

good thing I plan on BQ for the birds in the lipo class. I am not going to charge my packs @ 12 amps, it's just stupid. When we open our carpet track anyone found charging @ a level above 1c will go home, no questions asked!

Amen to that !! I think we'll start wandering the pits to make sure that is being done as well. Instant DQ for any racer charging over 1C.

it's the only way I know of to controll it. The Orion carbon charger only charges @ the legal rate so I don't have to worry about racers with that charger but guys with CE equipment would really be looked at closely. A one month ban would do the trick for the first offense, if that racer is dumb enough to pull the same thing again a permanent ban would fit nicely. If guys can't play by the rules, they shouldn't get to play at all. If you want to bend the rules and live in the gray area, run open mod! We all know what a big class that is!!!

What Steve posted was the original post. I did not have it worded correctly and this is the correct post prior to being asked to delete.

There is nothing wrong with the below conditioning of your Lipo packs. This is completely safe and will pose no danger to anyone at all. It's the overcharging that can pose problems.

I would like to try and keep this civilized and not let it get out of hand as it did on the other forum. This info needs to be out there so it can be learned from and then teched. To catch it you need to learn how it's done. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask.

CHARGING (CE Lipo updated GFX)
12000mah or 12 amps
2 cell 8.40 peak
(90-95 degree temps)
DO NOT hook up sensor leads

DISCHARGE (CE Updated Lipo GFX)
35 amp
2 cell 6.0 cut-off
(140-150 degree temps)
Hook up sensor leads

CONDITIONING (CE Updated Lipo GFX)
Cycle, Cycle, Cycle...............
Charge then discharge several times prior to racing.

Under high end racing conditions 2 packs are needed. Cycle the pack using the above info and do not delay in-between discharge and charging. When the pack is done discharging go directly into a charge. With the SMC packs 3-4 cycles will "top out" the pack. Many other Lipo packs took 7-10 cycles and still did not top out.

When you are done with your heat/qualifier dump the pack and go right back into a charge.

At the end of your main or day of racing dump the pack done and store without charge. More than 2 weeks do not discharge your pack.




*****WARNING: The below info is for experienced racers only. SMC and EA Motorsports do not recommend the following procedures. They deem them UNSAFE and will not assume responsibility for personal injury or property damage.*****

1. Do not attempt to use the following info on any other Lipo packs other than SMC 4000/5000 packs.
2. The following will decrease the life of your pack by at least 3/4.
3. The more the following process is repeated the greater chances are for FIRE dangers.
4. D0 NOT leave your pit area while performing the following procedures.
5. If a FIRE is caused do not use water or conventional fire extinguishers. USE SAND and smother the fire out.
6. Due to mis-use the manufacturers warranty will be void.

RE PEAKING

After the pack has completed a normal charge, re-peak with your Lipo GFX on NIHM mode at 10 amps. Let the pack overcharge to 9.00 volts and then stop the GFX. DO NOT WALK AWAY during this process as the pack will catch fire if the voltage exceeds 9.25.

*****WARNING: The above info is for experienced racers only. SMC and EA Motorsports do not recommend the above procedures. They deem them UNSAFE and will not assume responsibility for personal injury or property damage.*****

And that will teched quickly and accurately how?

Also, what if abuse doesn't really change the fully charged no load voltage, but alters the discharge curve instead.

The easiest way to tech overcharge is via a voltmeter or charger (GFX).

When you take and peak the pack to 9.00 and then stop the charger the voltage will drop back to 8.70-8.80. It greatly picks up performance on the racetrack.

The easiest way to tech overcharge is via a voltmeter or charger (GFX).

When you take and peak the pack to 9.00 and then stop the charger the voltage will drop back to 8.70-8.80. It greatly picks up performance on the racetrack.

Good info.

Not to tough to stick a voltmeter on the packs ! If it's over 8.4 V yer outta here !

This is why most people that will allow the lipo will only allow the 3200 pack. First it's exploding 4200 NIMH cells, now since the lipo's won't blow unless they are seriously abused someone has cooked up a way to try (charging @ 12 amps) I say do what most full size racing organizations are doing already, eliminate competition between manufacturers to keep racing safe and fair for the competitors.

Based on what I have read from "Linger on RCTECH" who is the person with the most knowledge on Lipos is that the only thing the cycling does is warm the pack and that can be accomplish by simply warming it before and during charging. Not sure we really learned anything from the whole thing other than it will be faster if you charge to 9.0 volts which can be checked as far as I know.

Racers will try almost anything so you are most likely correct, Pat!

I personally have not been able to "heating pad" a Lipo to the 35 amp or 7c discharge temp.

When using the above conditioning my packs NEVER got above 95 degrees during charge (12 amps or 12000 mah) and 145 degrees during discharge (35 amps or 7c)

This is why most people that will allow the lipo will only allow the 3200 pack. First it's exploding 4200 NIMH cells, now since the lipo's won't blow unless they are seriously abused someone has cooked up a way to try (charging @ 12 amps) I say do what most full size racing organizations are doing already, eliminate competition between manufacturers to keep racing safe and fair for the competitors.

Yep. Like I mentioned earlier. At our track we are ONLY allowing either the Orion Carbon 3200 or the Carbon 3600 (hasn't been decided yet). No other LiPo pack will be legal at our races. Makes it easy -- keeps the cost down.

This is why most people that will allow the lipo will only allow the 3200 pack. First it's exploding 4200 NIMH cells, now since the lipo's won't blow unless they are seriously abused someone has cooked up a way to try (charging @ 12 amps) I say do what most full size racing organizations are doing already, eliminate competition between manufacturers to keep racing safe and fair for the competitors.

Charging that hard does not hurt the pack or pose a danger. It will shorten the overall life of the pack but the on-track performance gains are noticable.

We need to remember a NIHM gets hot during a charge and really hot during a (I forgot to charge by battery) 12 amp charge. A Lipo is just the opposite as it will not get hot but only warm. Also when the battery is topping off the amp draw comes down until it reaches .50 amp. So your only charging hard until it actually hits 8.40.

The Kokam based cells (Orion/Peak) hold up very well to the 12 amp charging and 35 amp discharging. Another kool thing about charging hard is it takes no time to dump and recharge.

I personally have not been able to "heating pad" a Lipo to the 35 amp or 7c discharge temp.

When using the above conditioning my packs NEVER got above 95 degrees during charge (12 amps or 12000 mah) and 145 degrees during discharge (35 amps or 7c)


I have some old tire warmers with velcro and they get pretty warm maybe they will work!

Here are some cycle numbers that Danny posted on the other thread.


For those of you who understand battery numbers under a 35amp discharge here are some numbers of the same SMC 22C/5000 pack charged normally on a Lipo GFX and then overcharged using Tonys method. This will prove why overcharging should not be done. The main reason is safety but then there is also a significant performance gain.

Regular charge: 518 seconds , 7.22 voltage , 10.0 IR

Overcharge : 610 seconds , 7.46 voltage , 6.9 IR


Now on to high amp cycling which breaks down the memory effect. The test was done on an Orion 3200 pack. This pack was used multiple times on the track during a race weekend. Then it was cycled 4 times in a row using a normal Lipo charge and 35 amp discharge down to 6 volts.

Cycle 1: 314 - 6.76 - 17.1

Cycle 2: 322 - 6.95 - 12.3

Cycle 3: 326 - 7.01 - 11.2

Cycle 4: 328 - 7.03 - 10.8

I agree with swtour, this lipo thing is really good and could be the best thing for this hobby ever. As ususal the racers end up being their own worst enemy, follow the instructions from the manufactures.

TeamGoodwrench has spend tons of time researching lipo's before he switched, he ran them and as become quite competitive with the lipo 21.5 vs 13.5 4-cell, I think to the point he was beating them and they forced them to start their own class.

I have run the 3200 and the 4800, both outside and this season on the carpet as well, it sure makes life easy and the performance of so consistant from the beginning of the race to the end, from the beginng of the day to the end, and I follow the mfg's directions and 0 problems.

Swtour has done extensive testing as well and guess what no problems for anyone who has followed the manufactures instructions.

The only way I can see to make this lipo thing work is to monitor the local racers and make sure the are following correct charging procedures and maybe a large events a bank of certified chargers that are run by the sanctioning body to prevent abuse. I know it probably couldn't work, but we have to do something or this electric thing will go away.

I can not believe that this information got posted, because the seed is now planted and you know racers, he's doing it and beating me, then I guess I'll have to do it too!!!!!

I have some old tire warmers with velcro and they get pretty warm maybe they will work!

There was discussion about only "part" of the pack getting warm. By using a 35 amp discharge the whole pack inside and out is heated.

The easiest way to tech overcharge is via a voltmeter or charger (GFX).

When you take and peak the pack to 9.00 and then stop the charger the voltage will drop back to 8.70-8.80. It greatly picks up performance on the racetrack.


I'm ignorant of the specific ins and outs of what LiPOs do, but here is a question.

Lets say I do the abusive charge method and pull it off the charger and it is at 8.80V. What if I put a load across the pack (discharge) for a couple seconds then take the load off. Will the voltage bounce back up to say 8.78 or will it only bounce back up to say 8.44V, thus giving me most of the advantage of the high charge, but still passing the voltmeter tech?

I'm ignorant of the specific ins and outs of what LiPOs do, but here is a question.

Lets say I do the abusive charge method and pull it off the charger and it is at 8.80V. What if I put a load across the pack (discharge) for a couple seconds then take the load off. Will the voltage bounce back up to say 8.78 or will it only bounce back up to say 8.44V, thus giving me most of the advantage of the high charge, but still passing the voltmeter tech?

I was thinking the same thing! Good question!

I can not believe that this information got posted, because the seed is now planted and you know racers, he's doing it and beating me, then I guess I'll have to do it too!!!!!


Everyone finds these things out sooner or later. Look at this way at least the experimenting was done by someone else and not a guy sitting at the pit table next to yours.

Again it is not different than the other cells. I know some people that step charge there 4 cells at 12 or more amps!! There is no way to administer what people are doing.

I'm ignorant of the specific ins and outs of what LiPOs do, but here is a question.

Lets say I do the abusive charge method and pull it off the charger and it is at 8.80V. What if I put a load across the pack (discharge) for a couple seconds then take the load off. Will the voltage bounce back up to say 8.78 or will it only bounce back up to say 8.44V, thus giving me most of the advantage of the high charge, but still passing the voltmeter tech?

NO when you dump it down it will pull voltage off hard (lower votlage numbers) but the minute you stop it the voltage back up but not to the starting voltage. It works the same way a NIHM does during charge and discharge.

pm, not yet. Dub, yes there is, the track owner didn't get to be a track owner by being stupid and woe to the racers who think he is.Again it is not different than the other cells. I know some people that step charge there 4 cells at 12 or more amps!! There is no way to administer what people are doing.

For those of you who know Phillip Harwood, he is a retired Firefighter and before any of this testing was done we had a nice long talk about Magnesium fires. All safety perceptions were taken during testing. Heck I even wore safety glasses.

I was thinking the same thing! Good question!

Might I add, if you overcharge it will show up in tech. Even if you just go to 8.50 your voltage output on the pack will be higher than 8.40.

You can't cheat a voltmeter! lol (unless the batteries are dead)

NO when you dump it down it will pull voltage off hard (lower votlage numbers) but the minute you stop it the voltage back up but not to the starting voltage. It works the same way a NIHM does during charge and discharge.


So it does bounce back enough to still fail tech?

With a NiMH there is a pretty large difference between the starting point and where it would bounce back to.

So it does bounce back enough to still fail tech?

With a NiMH there is a pretty large difference between the starting point and where it would bounce back to.

Characteristics are the same but yes it will still be higher.

Anyone interested in learning about the posted conditioning (not overcharging) by all means come by and see me at the Birds. I can show you first hand one-on-one how to do it so it might ease your concerns and/or fears.

Tony, I respect the fact that you came up with a killer car and you tested batteries to the point wearing goggles and a fire suit but most racers (emphasis on most) just want to race without mortgaging or burning down their house. I enjoy the competition more when power plants and fuel are closely regulated, that way it comes down to skill instead of money.

Tony, I respect the fact that you came up with a killer car and you tested batteries to the point wearing goggles and a fire suit but most racers (emphasis on most) just want to race without mortgaging or burning down their house. I enjoy the competition more power plants and fuel are closely regulated, that way it comes down to skill instead of money.

10-4, come see me at the Birds as i'll have the gears you are needing. I sent in my Birds order today and man are there a ton of big pinions and small spurs.

Oh, and I didn't wear a fire suit! lol

How many cycles were you getting out of packs before performance began to drop off? With having to cycle the pack many times to achieve optimum performance how long could a person expect to be able to race with two packs before they begin to drop off and have to be retired to practice duty?