There's a pretty good/heated discussion on the future plans for ROAR Legal B/L motors going on on RCTech.

Granted, it's a typical RCTech Discussion (where everybody pretty much gets SLAMMED by those who disagree) but it's not too bad so far.

ROAR B/L MOTOR DISCUSSION (http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198561)

Joe, very interesting, sometimes difficult to understand folks position because that are clear what style of racing they are talking about i.e.( 12th scale, is that on raod or oval). But at least there is discussion.

Racers bought into BL because it was new, cool and made racing more fun. Rules were not in place to govern these motor because no one...not even the manufacturers of these motors knew what would end up being equivalent to existing brushed motors.

If you recall 2 years ago the Novak 4300(10.5) was supposed to be a stock motor and the 5800 (8.5 was supposed to be a 19T. Both were too fast.

Then it was 13.5 and 10.5 with bonded rotor but the rotors were a problem and they went to sintered rotors. The 13.5 became faster then stock but the 10.5 was right at 19T level.

Now finally it seems 17.5 is the right equivalent to a 27T stock motor.

The racers that bought BL motor were on the bleeding edge of motor development. I know I was aware that the BL motors I was buying my not be legal in the future and would need to be replaced at some time. I have mentioned this time and again over the last two years. Well...experiment time is over. Its time to write the best rules we can even if it is inconvienent.

ROAR has 2 responsibilities.

1. Look out for the racers interests

2. Look out for the health of our hobby

Sometimes these two goals are at odds with each other.

In this case racers have bought motors that may not be in the best interests of the hobby. Its pretty clear that 13.5 is too fast for stock class racing and for novices getting into the hobby. 17.5 are much better.

Here is my suggestion:

I believe that ROAR should make rules for to govern BL racing that are ideal for Regional and National level racing. This means BL motors that are equivalent in speed and power to the existing core National level classes. This keep things similar to what we are running now and doe not add new unnecessary classes.

17.5T/27T Stock/Spec BL

10.5T/19T Spec Mod/Spec Mod BL

BL/BR Open Modified

Those racers with 13.5T motors can continue to race them happily at the club level for as long as there is interest in continuing to run them. The rules for 13.5 will not be written but will be controlled by local race directors with guidance based on the ROAR rules just like everyone is doing right now.

We really don't need more classes.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/rctechv3/pixel_gray.gif Adrian Martinez
BMI Racing
bmiracing.com


That's the best post I've read in a while ... happens to match my point of view ...

Steve.

Personally I disagree with that. We'd be a lot better off with the 3 classes being 17.5, 13.5 and mod. One of the biggest problems I see in racing is people who don't belong in stock continuing to run stock. If the next class up from stock is 8 laps faster we'll never successfully get the people who don't belong in stock out of it. I'll happily race against anybody in the country if we're running 13.5, but not 10.5. It is just too fast. I guess that leaves me running stock and leaves the new racer to be lapped 6 times every week until he/she gets frustrated enough to give up. 10.5 is probably as fast or close to as fast as open mod was when we went to 4 cells and it'll only get faster. To have that as the bread and butter class doesn't make sense to me. I can see it being fine for other types of racing, but for oval I don't see it.

If we slowed the cars down and made them handle a lot worse we'd be so much better off.

..I guess that's why I always seem to propose 4 classes...but for some reason we get this 3 tier class thing going on.

A to B, B to C, C to D

From Entry level, to Advanced Level, to Expert Level to PRO level

Utilize what ever combination fits the crowd and track being used for the particular event. (Some tracks and events Won't have an ENTRY level crowd...so 13.5/10.5/MODIFIED may be the three for that deal... Other places may have a HUGE entry level following and have NO Pro/Modified Group so you'd have the 17.5/13.5/10.5

Seems too easy...I don't understand~

Well said Pat :thumbsup:

If we slowed the cars down and made them handle a lot worse we'd be so much better off.


Pat - elaborate more on what you mean by makeing them 'handle a lot worse'

This is something I don't understand WHY you would want to take handling away from the slower class. A lot of people already have a hard time driving a pan car - and don't feel it's worth wasting their time with..

If you are advocating making them handle worse by making them PUSH like a dumptruck forcing EVERYONE to have to LIFT ..OK. But I would hate to see it advocated to make them LOOSE and too free, causing excess spinning and crashes.

Pat - elaborate more on what you mean by makeing them 'handle a lot worse'

This is something I don't understand WHY you would want to take handling away from the slower class. A lot of people already have a hard time driving a pan car - and don't feel it's worth wasting their time with..

If you are advocating making them handle worse by making them PUSH like a dumptruck forcing EVERYONE to have to LIFT ..OK. But I would hate to see it advocated to make them LOOSE and too free, causing excess spinning and crashes.

First keep in mind this is from a carpet racing perspective. Caps are different.

I would take traction away. Most of the crashing I see has less to do with the handling of the car and more to do with the reaction times of the drivers. Right now we have a bad combination of cars that are way too fast for most people's reaction times, hence why you almost never see clean mains anymore, yet at the same time the cars are basically velcroed to the track and are stupidly easy to drive.

I would venture to say that most people who become frustrated with oval racing become that way because their car feels perfectly fine yet they are getting lapped over and over again. That's why you tend to see newer or slower guys think someone is cheating them. To them their car feels great yet they are getting crushed. They put that together in their mind and it adds up to the other guys are cheating.

Setup is just way way too critical in oval racing. If you slow down the cars and make them handle worse you'll put more of an emphasis on driving yet at the same time people will be able to react to the other cars on the track and avoid crashing. Not to mention when there are crashes less will break and the slower the cars the longer the tires will last.

I would bet money that an oval class with a SLOW battery/motor combo and 4 hard blue tires would be hugely popular and an absolute blast. Unfortunately it'll never get tried because a lot of racers tend to be babies about anything that might even slightly take away their car's handling. Just look at these threads where people freak out over the thought of having to run jack the gripper or not use wings.

I've been pretty impressed with how civil the discussion over there has been...enough so that I even waded in a bit. I agree with a lot of what Adrian said, the only difference is that for us (oval) 13.5 seems like a much better middle ground than 10.5 because 10.5 is so darn ballistic. Theory being put a wing on 13.5 car and it'll do 19t speeds from a year ago.
Four classes may work, but I'm not sure there's enough seperation from one to the next in on-road. What really bugs me is the idea of equivalent brushed and brushless motors. The majority of racers want to move to brushless technology, but if you put a 17.5 on track with a 27t for an on-road race I'm pretty sure the 17.5 will get waxed every time, so in that class brushed will live on and we'll continue to delay the inevitable.
Rick Howhart posted a four level structure that I guess sounds better and better, with a slight tweak.
Sportsman Stock 17.5
Limited Modified 13.5
Expert 10.5
Pro Open Modified

If you want to run Mod at a national level you need to be licensed to do so, or else you can run the Expert class with either a 10.5 or a 19t. That'll make some brushed guys happy in equivalency and make some of the Pro guys happy that they don't have wingless cars running Open Mod :)

CBear,

Unfortunately during any time of transition it seems you have to deal with comparing the NEW with the OLD to gain acceptance.

For instance, when we started testing B/L on the west coast last year...we HAD to find places to be able to run the two together just to get guys to even look at it for consideration.

Personally I hope BRUSHED motors will fade away for ALL major racing events...and once that happens the reference to what brushed motors do or did should also fade away. (It will never be gone - but hopefully it will be very faded)

I use a lot of comparisons when talking about the 2 (B/L vs BR) but in all reality the best thing I did while I was learning about B/L motors was to QUIT trying to figure out what WIND was supposed to be like WHAT BR equivilant, and actually TEST them for speeds in RACE conditions.

IF Oval Racing was a bigger part of the racing market, I think Oval may have been able to have more input as to what motors were made 3-4 years ago.

I am extatic that NOVAK was willing to step up and help when JB and I were both looking for something to SLOW the B/L motors down. Even though I still think what we have ISN'T the 'perfect' match, I think the only way we can get it closer is to actually have a B/L motor that puts out more Kv(RPM) w/o putting out as much Power and Torque. (This would allow more common gearing, but still wouldn't produce the speeds) A Bonded Rotor version could have been one way to achieve this, but who wants to knowingly run JUNK! (Which is why we only had NOVAK build the Pro versions of the 17.5 AND 21.5 motors)

PAT - Thanks for the explaination... We don't get to do a LOT of carpet racing out here..so we rarely have those issues, cause we spend most of race day just trying to FIND a decent setup...and we won't get another opportunity to be on the rug for 3-4 months after that.

We tend to run more asphalt/foam tracks around 200- 260 ft run line, and generally have to syrup the track to get the needed bite....or else we're running on a pretty slippery concrete track where even running Red/Green tires that cars tend to be very loose.

This may or may not be the answer here but here is my view on things that kinda fit this topic.

It doesnt matter what rules we go by, right now the tracks around the country have got to get on the same page with each other to help the sport and most of all the racers. In the past (wether you like them or not is not the issue) all tracks ran under the roar rules, which kept things to around 3 classes and you could travel to any track and be assured that you could race with equipment you have (novice, 6 cell stock, mod for example). In todays racing we are faced with a HUGE transition in the sport. Brushed moving out while Brushless moving in. Sub C kinda moving out (not yet) Lipo moving in (in areas). Today we are faced with each track around the country making their own rules up for their track. There for some cant go race because they dont have equipment to race there. Here is a good example. the track I have raced for years I have heard is nothing but 21.5 lipo....my track an hour away is 17.5 lipo. So the means for me to go race there now I have to buy 3 21.5 bl motors (3 cars). That is $240 at best to go race there.

Then you have some trying to limit or bring politics into the sport more than ever with this "you have to run this brand crap". Who is getting hurt.....the racer and industry.

Find a rule body we can all live with
Everyone run under those rules
As long as it is enforced and everyone runs the same rules it should be fine
Keep drivers in classes they are capable of the speeds (up to the track)
Narrow it down to 3 classes or so
Dont limit manufactures

Get back to an old way of thinking here even though we are facing a very large transition stage and bring that thinking into the modern age. Everyone race, have FUN

..I guess that's why I always seem to propose 4 classes...but for some reason we get this 3 tier class thing going on.

A to B, B to C, C to D

From Entry level, to Advanced Level, to Expert Level to PRO level

Utilize what ever combination fits the crowd and track being used for the particular event. (Some tracks and events Won't have an ENTRY level crowd...so 13.5/10.5/MODIFIED may be the three for that deal... Other places may have a HUGE entry level following and have NO Pro/Modified Group so you'd have the 17.5/13.5/10.5

Seems too easy...I don't understand~

I think the 3 tier methodology comes from the days when there was no spec classes.
Now that the sanctioning bodies cater to the spec crowd I could see where a 4th class should exist, but to have both a 17.5 and a 13.5 class seems a bit redundant being its only 2 laps quicker. That would almost be like having a 19T machine wound and a 19T handwound class running together back in the old days.

Why not have 17.5 with a spec pack for the spec racer
17.5 for the former stock guys
10.5 for the former 19T guys
Open BL for the mod guys.
This way if a spec racer gets better he or she can move up easily to the normal 17.5 class and only have to change battery and not motor as well.

13.5 is more like 4-5 laps quicker than 17.5.

The spec battery packs have never really made much sense to me. Why not just run a slower motor or even better yet limit rollout? Both of those options are much better than having all different battery packs which are generally of inferior quality.

I think the 3 tier methodology comes from the days when there was no spec classes.
Now that the sanctioning bodies cater to the spec crowd I could see where a 4th class should exist, but to have both a 17.5 and a 13.5 class seems a bit redundant being its only 2 laps quicker. That would almost be like having a 19T machine wound and a 19T handwound class running together back in the old days.

Why not have 17.5 with a spec pack for the spec racer
17.5 for the former stock guys
10.5 for the former 19T guys
Open BL for the mod guys.
This way if a spec racer gets better he or she can move up easily to the normal 17.5 class and only have to change battery and not motor as well.

I agree with you erock.

"open" 17.5 is plain too fast for new comers ... I personnaly would prefer a "17.5 + maximum rollout rule" for the entry level class ... then "open 17.5" ... then "open 10.5" as the expert class.

Steve.

Good point Eric and in todays racing we really need to keep in mind the "entry" level or spec type racing as a class. If you look at Oval for example the talent pool of drivers is outstanding right now the trouble is that Old farts like myself that have been doing this for 30 years have nobody coming up behind us. And that is the case around the country. Lots of killer drivers that have been doing it 10-15 to 30 years and a handful of young drivers to replace us. NOT ENOUGH in other words.

Some how we need to find a good direction that will work for everyone in a positive way. There are a ton of reasons for R/C not being what is used to be but we can make a difference if we work together. That means not beating Roar, arcor, or whom ever over the head for trying. We dont always like certain things but we can respect them just the same. We need that more than ever.

Why not have 17.5 with a spec pack for the spec racer
17.5 for the former stock guys
10.5 for the former 19T guys
Open BL for the mod guys.


I personally would have NO problem with a structure like that. I had 2 13.5 motors, I really liked the way they drove, but I ran MOD for a long time... I did see and feel they were too fast as a STOCK class replacement (part of that came from me beating one of the guys who has been one of the guys I consider to be one of the best STOCK guys we have) and I only beat him because he wasn't use to the extra power put down by the 13.5 after running stock...where I've had a bit more THROTTLE rip in the past.

I SOLD my 13.5's just a couple weeks ago - For me it's 21.5/LIPO and 17.5/LIPO, and 10.5 LIPO for '08, and if I run someplace not using LIPO it will be 17.5/4 cell and 10.5/4 cell.

I have both - will KEEP both - and be covered. (I still have 2 MOD B/L motors too - for those days I want to go "FAST" , but 10.5 is plenty fast for me most of the time now-a-days.)

13.5 is more like 4-5 laps quicker than 17.5.

It all depends of the track you race on.

Steve.

The OVAL MASTERS was almost 5 laps quicker in 13.5 over 17.5

Did the O/M run BRL "Spoiler" rules in these classes?

We ran just a couple races on our capped track using 13.5's last season while we were testing B/L ideas. The 13.5 was SO much faster than STOCK and almost ran as fast as 10.5. but was easier to get on the throttle off the corners.

21.5/LIPO had almost the same result as the 13.5 on the capped track - almost 5 laps faster than 4 cell STOCK.

So far I've seen them head to head on tight 130' to tracks to wide 175' tracks. Consistently 4-5 laps if you compare apples to apples as far as driver ability. It's really a mute point. 13.5 continues to be the most popular class at the majority of big races lately, so although some may not run it or even try it before proclaiming it should go away a lot of us who have actually run all of these classes and have been racing BL for years really like it. I don't think it's going anywhere.

I can see having one class that is too fast for most to drive, but I can't see having two out of 3 classes that are too fast for most people to drive or drive well.

I'll have to agree with Rob and Racin Steve, on a majority of there thinking.

I'll stick to my guns on this one ESC and motor company crap if I wanted to be told what to run and where to run it I would , I do not understand what the deal is with those partys but I guess it is there show, but why not run the diffrent mfgs together and see what is out there and for those who can run any motor ESC's run them with all the interchangable motors do more research within the mfgs. I totally understand what Rob is saying because I fall under the not able to use Tekin Brushless it has to be Novak only ESC and motors in 08 or stay in the old classes and prey there might be enough to run a brushed class. I thought racing was a sport or hobby that you do the best within rules and guidelines etc. I guess I'm an prude or somthing but I just can't believe people want to tell you it has to be this or nothing unless you run mod. Sorry Joe but that is why I'm only running a partial season (Velo only ? unless there are 4 cell brushed stock )or ( a change in mfg's rule ) due to the motor and esc rules you stated your going to follow and run. This is the same for the other 3 series I run as well.

Edited - This message was read, and no longer needs to be a part of this thread!

I'll have to agree with Rob and Racin Steve, on a majority of there thinking.

I'll stick to my guns on this one ESC and motor company crap if I wanted to be told what to run and where to run it I would , I do not understand what the deal is with those partys but I guess it is there show, but why not run the diffrent mfgs together and see what is out there and for those who can run any motor ESC's run them with all the interchangable motors do more research within the mfgs. I totally understand what Rob is saying because I fall under the not able to use Tekin Brushless it has to be Novak only ESC and motors in 08 or stay in the old classes and prey there might be enough to run a brushed class. I thought racing was a sport or hobby that you do the best within rules and guidelines etc. I guess I'm an prude or somthing but I just can't believe people want to tell you it has to be this or nothing unless you run mod. Sorry Joe but that is why I'm only running a partial season (Velo only ? unless there are 4 cell brushed stock )or ( a change in mfg's rule ) due to the motor and esc rules you stated your going to follow and run. This is the same for the other 3 series I run as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to run that Tekin until a fully functional one exists.

I've always been curious about something with the Tekin camp. What happens if your Tekin turns out to be a smidge slower then the Novak? Do you buy a Novak? Do you quit racing? Then what happens when the LRP turns out to be a smidge faster yet. Then do you go out and buy one of those or do you quit racing? Then what happens when the Mamba....... You get the picture.

What adavantage is there in allowing any brand? Isn't the idea for the horsepower to be even amongst everyone so we can find out who drives the best and sets the car up the best? You guys always want to turn this into some kind of personal affront to the Tekin brand. It's not at all. The simple fact is Novak was first and Novak stepped up to support some oval racing. If Tekin had been first we'd all be running Tekin and telling Novak to get lost. If you want to blame someone blame your sponsor for not getting the job done and getting to market first.

I want to buy one motor/speedo and race it for a year or two. That is the advantage of BL. I don't want to have to buy 4 different motors and 3 different speedos in one years time to keep up.

A little HARSH there with the SPORTSMAN thing!!

...I tried to be polite - kinda

Joe,
Sorry if that P@#$%,you off but if you allow Novak, Lrp what up with the rest?
I also know how you feel about sponsored drivers reguardless of the class they run afterall I'm just a demo derby driver or novice what ever, I believe your sponsored!
If you don't want me running the tour speak up now and I'll spend my money else where. I think I have supported the tour 2 1/2 years now, not near as much as some but I still support it.
I will inform you Tekin does have a Brushed system out and I own one. The other thing is asking a company for equipment that you will not allow to run, ( BRUSHLESS equipment ). I would not give it to you either.
I think this whole brushless thing is out of control after all look at what happened already at the birds and it has not started yet, hard feelings between a promoter and a long time sponsor.
I guess when your paid your paid. $$$$$ dominates it all.

Ditto

Velo cars for sale L3 and a Big boy toy custom version.

This message has been read - and no longer needs to be here!

I agree with Swtour and pmsimkins. Great posts.
My personal opinion is the speedo thing is like the Lipo thing. Some want to allow everything that has been manufactured or will be manufactured. Some because they get a DEAL on what ever item. Some because they are friends with the manufacturers. What ever the reason, I just don't see how it is good for our hobby. :confused:

Is it truly a freedom of choice thing? As some of you know, my son ran Lipo last year. We were prepared to not run if lipo was not going to be allowed. At one race we did just that. So, I'm of the opinion that if you want to run something that no one else is running, be prepared to not run. If you want freedom of choice, be prepared for the consequences. :)

The BRL already has this figured out....

17.5 Sportsman Stock - This new class should serve as the perfect gateway to get new racer involved in the hobby and or a home for those he feel more comfortable at speed comparable to a 27T brushed stock motor. Body, chassis, and electronics rules will be the same as the 13.5 class for the season.

13.5 Master Truck - The perfect class for veteran racers over the age of 40.

13.5 Super Stock - New name but same great racing as last year. This was our fastest growing class at the end of the season and is quickly becoming the standard at most local tracks. Look for larger fields and some close racing action.

10.5 Pro Modified - The name sez it all these guys are the most talented and competitive group of racers in the country. From the sounds of the new racers coming the field is going to get even deeper. With the speed escalation over the last few years I think you will see the 10.5 class evolve into the new modified.

Non Points Class

Open Pro Modified - Although not a points class this year we will offer the Pro Mod at a few selected tracks this season large enough to handle the insane speed. Look for a little cash bonus to entice the speed demons to come out and play.
__________________________________________________ _______________

next question?

In a perfect world I would like to see only, 17.5 entrylevel, 13.5, and 10.5 but that will probably never happen.

We have seen a TON of new racers in the southern Wisconsin area in the last 2 years with 3 simple classes. Entry level 13.5 latemodel class(dirtlatemodel body), 13.5 stock class, and 10.5mod. The average weekly race has had 40-50 drivers with our last race getting 75 entries.

While I do think the 13.5 is a little too fast for some of the newer guys, most racers seem to adapt pretty quick, especially the racers that are willing to get out on the track and practice more than 1 or 2 batteries. One thing that holds true about racing is you race up to or down to the level of the people you are racing against and around. As long as there is racers to help the newer racer out the slightly faster speeds are really not an issue from what I have seen. We had offered to help get the latemodel class 17.5's but none of them really wanted too and seem to be just happy with the 13.5's. We have had probably atleast 25 new racers in the last year or 2 and I would say almost all 25 of them are still racing. Theres also been a pretty large crowd of old racers coming back.

From what I have seen oval is on an big increase in some areas and a big decrease in others probably partly due to the lipo/brushless transition. I dont think there really is a solid answer to say you need to run class A,B,C,D because in the end racers will run what they want to and things always seem to get seperated regionally more than anything. Having a class you can run in and use the same equipment to bump up to the next class is definately a must though.

I think this whole brushless thing is out of control

It's not really. In transition, yes. New classes starting up, old one's (some not so old!) going away. I personally think it's a great time to be in the hobby. Have I been happy with every change? No, but I think the overall direction BL is taking us is far far better than the brushed era.

ROAR's decision on BL standards might very well open some classes to other motor makers. Probably not in oval where perception would kill any sort of co-mingling of manufacturers.

For the 40+ yo crowd geting back into racing after 15 years away, alot of people (ME!) don't have the money to buy the BL combo along with the batterys.

Thus why I choose Legends and will likely help develop a spec pan class.

I got priced out of the hobby before when the 1700 SCR Blacks came out. Before that I was always in the top three, held track record for a while.

Right now, I plan on NEVER going BL/Lipo. I'm gonna enjoy brushed 4 cell, which is how it should be, ENJOYING!

Oh yeah, back when I was fast and having fun, most would run blues in the front/greens on the back. I'd run blues on the back and LF, then a blue/orange on the RF. Mostly because the tire wear/coning was better and it fit in with having a 2 yo son family budget :)

Another Thread Down The Tubes

wow i love 10.5 and i like to watch the new guys run 13.5 17.5 does not run here in florida unless you own a lipo pack.......hmmmmmmmm what will the roar carpet oval nationals offer for classes?

wow! THE SNOWBIRDS 10.5 CLASS IS HUGE! followed by the 13.5 class

I see the need for 4 classes

17.5 = nooob
13.5 = expert noob
10.5 = too cheap to run mod but likes to go faster than stock
open mod 1.5 and up baby!

i have no desire to run 13.5 and i have no desire to run open mod outdoors on asphault. i have no desire to remove wings or other parts of the body either.

Actually, you have that backwards Bill. 13.5 has 48 while 10.5 has 38. Either way its obvious where the oval world is heading.

I think the BRL has proven there's a demand for 17.5, and its also proven that very few can hold onto an open mod car (or the will to do so). With that, the 4 class structure only makes sense, since you won't see Open Mod at very many races. That gives three classes at most locations and for your really big events you have a fourth. Sounds great to me.

i agree with bear! all those in favor say I...I ok that was easy!

I am in favor of the 4 class system

17.5 Mostly Local Hobby Racing
13.5 Local and National Competition
10.5 Local and National Competition
ProMod Mostly National Competition and the DieHard

i like any of the bl classes they are a blast and you dont have to be a motor genius to go fast. we are running the lipo 3200 with the 21.5 novak and the cot body at the track i race at my track record is exactly one lap faster than the stock class record i could never go that fast with a 4 cell batt and a stock motor! just my 2 cents

Yes, Swtour, i'm everywhere too :D

We need to keep in mind that the stock motors of today are quite a bit faster than they were 4 years ago. A lot of that has to do with batteries as well. We need to remember that there will most likely be some sort of performance enhancing over the next 4 or 5 years and that these things will get faster. With that in mind, and that we're dealing with lipo also, I think it might be wise to look at 21.5 or 23.5 for stock/entry level.

Something to think about since many people think that stock is too fast. Let's hear some constructive thoughts guys and gals :)

To duplicate my thoughts on the RcTech thread; I think when/if we go to Lipo, SWTour and JB and all the folks who did Lipo testing have done a good job working with Novak on finding comparable motors. The 21.5 and 17.5 from what I've heard work great; and if we're lucky 1/12th on-road will go that way too so that we're not alone and manufacturer's don't have to worry about oval specific products. I really think that in regards to oval racing we're well ahead of the curve in figuring out the next step of rules.

Why would you need a 13.5 and a 10.5 class, At alot/most tracks only a few laps diffrence.......

Having been doing a ton of testing with lipo and racing it this year the 21.5 is not enough different than a 17.5. Dont get me wrong the 21.5 is a nice speed with lipo but it should have been tested in more of a wide spread area. We are rolling 3.6 sec almost into 3.5 on my track (speed zone) with 17.5 and our 21.5 car will do 3.8's with having spent no where near the time on it (21.5) that I have with 17.5. Just a bit of info for everyone if you havent done much with lipo yet

Rob

Tested the 21.5/lipo at my hometrack(Hot Rod Hobbies Saugus,Ca 240'runline)last weekend.Kept throwing gear at it.Stock brushed laptimes 5.7 to 6.0,21.5/lipo,4.9 to consistent 5.2's/5.4 expert stock folks.Not close to stock speeds.21.5 with 4 cell,speeds would have been close to stock but not with a 7.2 lipo.Probably should have tried some higher winds,cause this aint close to stock brushed.Seems with BL motors,all you have to do is throw more gear at it to gain a ton of speed.Kinda defeats the purpose of brushless.At least on the westcoast.Gotta admit,not pullin the motor or battery & just plugging in the pack to the charger was kind of nice.That seemed to be the only thing i was enjoying last sunday.Maybee with some work i'll grow to like this,but right now i have to say i'm disappointed with how the whole deal went down out here.By the way,my car setup is good.Only thing i need to work on is a slight push coming off.
Dave Werner

I have no problem with Novak motors only! I would like to see Tekin RS Brushless legal soon after its release. I see no advantage to adjustable timing in a speed control. You can only time the motor so far before the motor will over heat or lag out the backdoor.

The National and big event classes should always differ fom the local class line up......

Local:

Legends
S/K
Breakout
Sportsman
17.5
13.5
10.5
mod

Nationals/big events
17.5/stock
13.5
10.5(The New Mod)
mod/ mod is dead

I will never understand
17.5 is not close to a stock motor
13.5 is not close to anything
10.5 Not close to a 19t
8.5 not even close to anything

If you know anything about brushed motors
Brushed will always be faster than Brushless WHY!
You can always make a Brushed faster and Faster anmd Faster.
Some brushed motor Wizards can do amazing thing to brushed motors that nobody can do to a Brushless motor.
So the way I see it Brushed is for Ever Brushless will never be faster.
So ROAR,BRL, IFMAR, MARS and all the other groups should focus on Brushed other than Brushless. Brushless will be for the groups that want it to be even and in order.

sarcasm?

who cares what xx.5 is close to.

I agree with Flack, most are saying the same thing really. Knock some sense into your teammates trying to get a product that isn't even available yet legalized!

Maybe there should be one class. Open mod!.... Wanna run brushed?...Not a problem!...lipo? not a problem! tekin brushless? that's fine! T-maxx? sure why not! :woohoo:

tommy i agree with almost all of what sonny has come up with....the 13.5 spoiler thing works great for some..i guess in the end does it realy matter what roar does?

I will never understand
17.5 is not close to a stock motor
13.5 is not close to anything
10.5 Not close to a 19t
8.5 not even close to anything

If you know anything about brushed motors
Brushed will always be faster than Brushless WHY!
You can always make a Brushed faster and Faster anmd Faster.
Some brushed motor Wizards can do amazing thing to brushed motors that nobody can do to a Brushless motor.
So the way I see it Brushed is for Ever Brushless will never be faster.
So ROAR,BRL, IFMAR, MARS and all the other groups should focus on Brushed other than Brushless. Brushless will be for the groups that want it to be even and in order.

Your right! Brushed is fast....Brushless equals======....No Motor builders, building motors for spec racers! No crying about secert motor building going on in those NO entry (by the normal racer) Trailers!!!!! LOL........No motor of the week or brush of the weekend! But, brushed is faster!!!!!!! No more rebuilding the motor after a couple of runs and hoping it is better, because your a lap off the pace(it got to be motor).......I do miss the whirl of the dyno...........but brushless can be dynoed!!!!!!yyyyyeeeeee.........no more carrying around 20 motors, hope one of them will make that lap up(motor right)...........No more comm drop of the month and no more "If I had that racers motor, I could be that fast" .......and No More HE/SHE is cheating!!!!!!!!No motor is that fast!!!!!!!! But, Brushed is faster!!!!!!!

Now that I race brushless all I can do is work on the chassis, shocks, tires , body, wing and gearing.......But, brushed is faster!