Hi Guys,
There's always talk about the smoothness of continuous rail tracks. However, I propose that what really makes a track smooth is continous slot. While rail joints will make a click sound and may cause some bouncing, I think a greater portion of the noise and banging around comes from the slot joints.

If you took a continous rail track with non-continuous slots (example: remove all the rail from plastic track and replace with continuous rail) and another track with non-continuous rail but continuous slot, I would bet the continuous slot track would be quieter and smoother.

I have been trying to think of a way to create a "sleeve" which could be laid into the slot after a track is completed to give a continuous slot (especially as I try to resolve the "flare" problem on Mattel track). The problem with doing this on exisiting track is that the slot may not be initially wide enough to allow you to put in a "slot liner"; although there are some very thin plastics available. A smaller diameter guide pin would likely be required if you tried to put a sleeve into existing Tomy, Tyco or Lifelike track.

But, it may be worth the effort. It should be easy to install and remove.

Comments?

Joe

Joe, I agree on the flare and lack of slot smoothness being a big part of the noise we hear on sectional track. The proof would be the knife edge that's created on the metal guide pins. I actually tried putting putty on the flares in a few turns but gave up after two turns! Too much of a pain. Why do they put those flares in anyway? My guess is to correct some sloppy manufacturing?
As far as a plastic liner, I think for it to do any good it would have to be too thick. Too thin and it would probably bend in the flared part.

BTW, are you in New Jersey? I'm in need of some 15 and 6 inch tyco curves and saw that you had some MM track for sale in Bloomfield? I'm just on the other side of the mountain from there in Little Falls. Sorry for hijacking. You can pm or email me with details for the track.

Dominic

Joe,Here's my comment.You're going crazy..i thought I was getting crazier.Shut up.Nobody asked you Beers.JOE I agree with you that.both the slot and joint make noice from 1 piece of track but that is alot of work.Just soldering the rails is a lot of work.I would reccomend soldering to get away from the click click click.When Danny Esposito built his track he took all the rails out,then he glued the track sections together.When that was done he sanded the track surfaceso it looked like a continous piece of plastic.All the slots are still flared.The noise is now gone because there is no variation in track height and it is coninuos rail. I have5 joints on my Brad Boman track and it's just nice to hear the cars accelerate.Joe you know you are welcome anytime.I'll see you at Bob Beer's Super Bowl Sunday show. Tom Stumpf

Joe,Here's my comment.You're going crazy

Nope...I'm not going anywhere, I have arrived!


..i thought I was getting crazier.Shut up.Nobody asked you Beers.

Just because I'm already crazy doesn't mean you can't join me.


JOE I agree with you that.both the slot and joint make noice from 1 piece of track but that is alot of work.Just soldering the rails is a lot of work.I would reccomend soldering to get away from the click click click.When Danny Esposito built his track he took all the rails out,then he glued the track sections together.When that was done he sanded the track surfaceso it looked like a continous piece of plastic.All the slots are still flared.The noise is now gone because there is no variation in track height and it is coninuos rail.

I was actually speaking with Danny earlier today about this very subject. He put a lot of work into that track. Plus, with all the work he did (pulling rail, sanding, glueing, filling, filing, etc.) you have to know that your layout is permanent and you'll never change it. I was looking for a method that was far less work intensive and would allow for layout changes. If the track was designed to accept a sleeve in the slot, laying it in would not take much time at all.


I have5 joints on my Brad Boman track and it's just nice to hear the cars accelerate.Joe you know you are welcome anytime.I'll see you at Bob Beer's Super Bowl Sunday show. Tom Stumpf

Tom, I promise I will make every effort to get down to your place in January. I want to see that Bowman track of yours.

Gotta go, they are coming with the meds. Oh, and look at the nice white coat.

Joe

Joe, I agree on the flare and lack of slot smoothness being a big part of the noise we hear on sectional track. I actually tried putting putty on the flares in a few turns but gave up after two turns! Too much of a pain.
Why do they put those flares in anyway?

Dominic


Hi Guys,
Does anyone know where I might find very thin sheets/strips of plastic? I'm talking about as thin as a piece of paper. I have another hairbrained idea I want to try.


Dominic,
The flares are in there, one would assume, to help the transition from piece to piece. The flares are necessary because, as you said, the manufacturing quality is just not there. If there were no flares, the slots would have to line up exactly. After having played with the flares for a couple weeks, I now realize it would be better if the slots were straight and any misalignment be handled by a little filing. The slower you go, the more impact the flares have. T-Jets will be affected more than magnet cars.

Think about this. When your car follows the outside wall of a slot (on a curve), as it gets to the flare it will start heading further away from the center. As it transitions to the next piece, the flare on that piece will direct it back toward the center. All well and good. However, the problem is that your guide pin is going to hit the wall of the next piece as that slot's flare is at an angle to your direction of travel.

Imagine hitting a slot wall that is at a 90 degree angle to your line of travel. It would be devastating. While the slot wall on the next piece of track is not at 90 degrees, it is not at 0 degrees either. It may be something along the lines of 15-20 degrees. Enough of an angle to cause your car to hit and jump sideways.

Hence, this is why a blade may be better than a pin. A long (lengthwise) blade will tend to ride out the flare more smoothly than a pin. A long blade would not be able to swival to as sharp an angle, and therefore would not hit the slot wall at as large an angle.

We had to make several tries on the 6" and 15" curves to try to get the flares to be somewhat close to those used by Tyco/Mattel. If you'll notice, the flares are not symetrical to the center of the slot, nor are the flares consistant between pieces.

I too want to try to fill in the flares. My next attempt will be with Plastic Wood, although I'm thinking it will be way too much work even if I'm successful.

Thanks...Joe

Why not put a minor flare on one end and no flare on the other and then just put a directional arrow underneath to show the direction the piece should be used? :confused:

Why not put a minor flare on one end and no flare on the other and then just put a directional arrow underneath to show the direction the piece should be used? :confused:

For straights, and uni-direction tracks, I think that would be great!

But could you imagine if, say, the SI set came with all clockwise 9" curves? A person might have to actually go and buy a package of the reverse ones! Ouch!

Does anyone know where I might find very thin sheets/strips of plastic? I'm talking about as thin as a piece of paper. I have another hairbrained idea I want to try.(Heh, heh) Hey Joe, I had the same harebrained idea when I read your original post. :cool: Line the slot-sides with thin, tough film.

Right off the top of my head I'd say -- polyester drafting film, .003" or .004" thick (about the same as plain old copier-paper). The stuff I'm familiar with is matte on one side (don't get "double matte" which is matte on both sides unless you want your guide pins ground down to nothing). Very tough, very slick on the non-matte side, translucent, easily sliced to width, and it's a thermoset polymer (not a thermoplastic), so it won't soften or distort from heat of friction.

The good news is that the stuff is available in rolls so you can do one side of the slot for your entire layout in a single piece with only one joint (theoretically, anyway. In practical reality, the difficulties of cutting a smooth, straight 1/8" by 60-foot strip off a 3-foot wide roll might be overwhelming without industrial-quality equipment). The bad news is that a roll is expensive (about $150 for 36" by 60 feet). There are narrower rolls for computer printers, but they are longer, so the roll price is about the same (probably easier to handle, though).

There is also clear polyester film. It's clear because it's smooth on both sides. I don't have much personal experience with it. I am assuming it is basically the same stuff as the single-matte film, just as tough and maybe more so. If so, it would be the material of choice. And it is cheaper, about $120 for 200 ft. of 36" wide roll. Here is one source: http://www.genealogicalstorageproducts.com/polyesterfilm.html

Fifteen years ago, you could walk into a drafting supply store and buy single sheets or packs of polyester drafting film in various sizes up to about four by six feet; if you still can, single sheets would be the way to go for testing the concept. Computers have pretty much blown away manual drafting, and I no longer live in a major city, so I don't know if it's still possible to get single sheets easily, or even if there are still drafting supply stores. I do seem to remember seeing drafting film in some form at my local Hobby Lobby's small drafting supply section. Maybe that's a possibility, or similar craft superstores like Michaels or MJD. Check the scrapbooking section also (since polyester film is an archival material). Try big art-supply stores. Seeing that the above link is to a genealogical-supply, maybe you have a specialty store for that hobby in your area that you could buy single sheets at. If there's a college nearby, the student store will probably carry small-quantity drafting supplies for architecture and engineering students, also.

Keep us posted. Me, I'll probably just put up with the clickety-clack ... And the occasional mysterious flying deslot in the middle of a straight. Grrrr... :mad: ... well, maybe not... Like I said, please keep us posted.
-- D

As far as I know the first flared joints started with the Aurora AFX snap track. In its day it did make for a better transition than what most users could obtain using the old Model Motoring (pins and joiners) track. It helped compensate for minor misalignment problems.

The bottom line is that none of the plastic sectional track sold by any "toy" manufacturer is top quality, high precision product built to exacting specifications and tight tolerances. The primary use case for this stuff was "junior dumps the track from the box on to the floor, slaps together a layout, snaps on the guard rails, runs the cars for a couple of hours, yanks everything apart, and stuffs it all back in the box." Under these conditions the sloppy tolerances and built-in fudge factor makes sense and is fully reasonable, especially at the price point that the sets are sold.

If you really want to obtain a professional quality racing surface you either have to pay for a professional quality product, like Max, Wiz, Bowman, or Brystal, or commit to spending countless hours tweaking and tuning a toy quality product up to higher standards. If you don't mind working for $0/hour, or if it's a labor of love, then starting off with plastic toy track is fine. The quality of finish will be proportional to the amount of time and effort you put into it. But you will always be fighting a battle because you are deviating from the product's intended use and all of the added effort and expense will fall on you.

I have a large Tomy track but I set my expectations such that I can tolerate a lot of the shortcomings of the track because I'm more interested in using the track as-is than devoting a lot of time and effort trying to make it something way better than what it was designed to be. At this point in my life time is more valuable than money, so if I wanted the premium ride I'd pony up the cash for a premium track. Sure, I tweaked the joints that needed tweaking, cut off the locking nubs, soldered some joints, and screwed it all down. But the very thought of considering re-railing, installing a slot sleeve, or filling and painting my plastic sectional track would tell me that I'm ready for a professional quality track. Fortunately, when the controller is in my hand and my car is zooming along my Tomy track, I feel quite content to stay the course for now.

Grand, as it now sounds like you're going to fill the flares (plastic wood statement), I once read something like this long ago concerning fixing the flared areas where curves meet that had become worn over time. The suggestion was to get a piece of thin lexan, like 7 or 10 thou used for lexan bodies, and use it as a dam (of sorts) held in place by toothpicks or whatever in the slot. Either backfill with JB Weld the area between the dam and the outside turn flair or prefill and wipe off the excess that comes out the top. Just make sure the dam goes to the bottom of the slot and none of the fill oozes out the bottom.

Don't know if this will work, never tried it. I have Tomy track and have so far lived with it's "personality" running everything from boxstock tjets to RO cars (rails glued). But, my next track will be Max, Wiz or Bowman. To put in that much work (and time!) to make plastic track smooth, I think I'd rather route and rail my own out of expanded foam PVC (Sintra) or laminate over MDF.

Just my 2 cents.

Steve

Oops, forgot to say... Once JB Weld has cured, remove lexan dam (should be able to remove as I don't think JB will stick to lexan real well) and do any profiling on the patch that needs to be done.

Steve

Clickty-Clack Clickty-Clack Thats music to my ears :)

I have found that most of the clickty clack comes from the difference in rail height going from one track to another and at times due to one track setting higher than the other when you transition. If the track you are going to is higher then you get unwanted deslots if its lower you just get a clickty with no clack :)

Roger Corrie

Hi Guys,

DSlot,
After that long post telling me where to get a thin plastic sheet, a couple things happened today.

First, I'm in the dollar store (I love the dollar stores) and I see a plastic place mat. Nice thin, sturdy plastic - just what I wanted. And only a buck!

Next, I realized that I could use old plastic cards (like an old credit card) to hold any filler in place. The card bends around even a 6" curve. I can put the card in the slot, fill in the flare and then pull the card. Or, use a piece of the plastic place mat in between the card and filler. If the plastic sticks to the filler, so what.

I can also try using the extra slats I took out of some blinds.

Turn-N-Burn,
Even though I want to try to fill the flares, I don't want to glue pieces together. So if I do this, I would probably do a couple sections at a time (like a full turn) and put something between the pieces, like the thin plastic mentioned above.

AFXToo and All,
Clearly plastic track is made cheaply and if you want smooth, you need to either go routed or something like a Maxtrack. However, my current experiance and experimentation with the Mattel track has led me to conclude that there are some design changes which could be made to make plastic track better without incurring extra costs. There is no reason a few design changes couldn't be made which would eliminate some of the tuning necessary. This is all good knowledge if we ever get to make more pieces.

One of the changes would be to eliminate the flare. I would round the end of the slot so there is not that sharp edge, but no flare. The rounded edge would be too slight to affect the car.

I would eliminate the 90 degree bend in the Mattel rail. Having a piece of the rail at 90 degrees to your line of travel is bad news.

Taper/round the rail at the end to eliminate the sharp edge. Maybe even bevel the bottom of the slot at the ends.

Make the track pieces with easy jumper points. At the very least, make a little more rail visible on the underside to make soldering easier.

Any new Tyco/Mattel compatible track will have the same slot depth as Tomy.

You might even get away with making the slot a little wider so you can insert a sleeve. This would have to be designed so that the sleeve could simply snap into the slot; a 30 minute operation to do an entire layout.

These small changes would not effect the cost of production, but would eliminate a good portion of the tuning problems. You'll still have uneven rail height and other quality related issues, but the problems that can be addressed with design changes would greatly improve the product.

The original question I raised in the first post still exists. If you had to choose between a continuous rail or continuous slot track, which will give you the smoother ride? I vote for continuous slot.

Thanks...Joe

DSlot,
After that long post telling me where to get a thin plastic sheet, a couple things happened today. ... Next, I realized that I could use old plastic cards (like an old credit card) to hold any filler in place... Sigh. So we're back to filling the joints instead of lining the slot? :rolleyes: Toooo bad; I was kind of hoping to see GrandCheapskate-brand No-Mo-Klak(TM) slot-lining tape, 1/8" by 200 feet for $6.95. Do your whole layout for less than a good set of tires. For a limited time only, GrandCheapskate's titanium-scandium alloy Thin-Pin(TM) guides, just $.97 each (Marchon-style, $1.29).

Oh, well ...

(Ain't gonna fill those fiddly little joints. NoooooSirrr.)

--D ;)

Sigh. So we're back to filling the joints instead of lining the slot? :rolleyes: Toooo bad; I was kind of hoping to see GrandCheapskate-brand No-Mo-Klak(TM) slot-lining tape, 1/8" by 200 feet for $6.95. Do your whole layout for less than a good set of tires. For a limited time only, GrandCheapskate's titanium-scandium alloy Thin-Pin(TM) guides, just $.97 each (Marchon-style, $1.29).

--D ;)

I still think lining the slot is the ultimate solution IF the slot were initially made wider and with an easy way to snap in a liner. However, because you would be doing it to existing track, the slots are just not wide enough for it. Any kind of lining would reduce the width of the slot too much.

Although, as an aside, I noticed that the slot width on Mattel track varies. There are places where the slot is narrower, usually just before the flare. I have been finding those places and running a Dremel through the slot to open it to the correct width. There's not a lot of excess material, but enough to shave it down.

Could you do it to existing track and then make a thinner pin? I guess it's possible. Hummmm...tape? Stick it to the side wall of the slot? Interesting.

At one time I was looking at using Artin 1/43 track for Marchon cars. Marchon cars are a little too big for standard HO track in my opinion. However, on 1/43rd track, they look pretty good - lots of room. The problem was the slot is too wide. The guide pin has to be centered in the slot in order for the pickup shoes to hit the rails. Now, if you were to line that slot, thereby reducing the width.....hummmmm.

Another crazy thought, but also a lot of work. Open the slot wide on each piece right at the flare and only insert a liner at the joint (maybe backfill behind it?). You can open the slot as much as you want as long as you only do it for a short distance at each end.

Joe

At one time I was looking at using Artin 1/43 track for Marchon cars. Marchon cars are a little too big for standard HO track in my opinion. However, on 1/43rd track, they look pretty good - lots of room. The problem was the slot is too wide. The guide pin has to be centered in the slot in order for the pickup shoes to hit the rails. Now, if you were to line that slot, thereby reducing the width.....hummmmm.
Joe

Joe what you have to do is put a plastic sleeve over the guide pin to get it to center on Artin track.