ok now that evryone has pretty much stopped running brushed motor and went to brushless anyone out there wanna spill the beans on what makes the brushed motor FAST secrets!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A very good Chassis!!!!!!

there is no way to tune or tweak a brushless motor.. You buy one, put it in the car, and get your setup right. The brushles motors require a very good setup. If yours is off any little bit, it will show..

A very good Chassis!!!!!!

...the case with any powertrain!!!!

there is no way to tune or tweak a brushless motor.. You buy one, put it in the car, and get your setup right. The brushles motors require a very good setup. If yours is off any little bit, it will show..

Might want to reread what the poster was asking.:p

Basically Now that BL seems to have taken over..does anyone want to give out the magic trade secret on making good HP out of brushed motors..

For the poster I dont have any magic secrets.. However as posted above a car with the worst motor and best chassis will always beat the worst chassis best motorr combo..

makes the brushed motor FAST secrets!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Attention to detail, a good base setup (ie: spring & brush choice), consitency in your building. (Learn your motors, don't CHANGE what/how you build them every time you build one...because somebody gave you some HOT IDEA)

Build and refine your motor data, log your dyno numbers and keep good records so you can basically 'Blue Print' the motors you build.

Reverse engineer the data from a motor built by a PRO - take a motor from a Putnam, EAMotorSports or one of the other TOP builders and measure the spring pressures on each side, note which color springs are used where (just because the color is the same doesn't mean they are all the same tension on the brush) Note the cut/style and mfg. or the brushes. Feel how smooth the brushes go in and out of the brush hoods...make sure those hoods are aligned properly. Make sure your BUSHINGS are properly broken in...make sure your brushes are seated properly too... (ALL THE THINGS I never did...or WANTED to have to do to a MOTOR...LOL)

I don't think you'll find any 'Black Magic', just very fine attention to ALL the details...

(AND Have a PERFECT car/driver combo)

kenwood very good eye.

ok then here is something that needs some thought then

and this has happened....

If i am running a car with the same exact set-up from oils to springs to shock legnths to tie rods put in the same exact hole on shock tower to tire compounds and same body just different paint and you run together and say i am running 41 laps and the other car gets 47 laps whats wrong with this picture. it ain't the set up its the same. so what is it then motor and battery? there is something going on that someone ain't tellin lol.

then lets explain a perfect set-up that will make this car fast.......

every chassis is different, even if it's the same manufacture. You could have (2) KSG's, and both require different set-ups. Not to mention different driving styles, radio settings, ect. You can't just copy a fast guys set-up and expect to go fast, there's a lot more to it than springs and tires.

sorry bro it is 95% set up nimh batteries are so good that team packs are not a big advantage anymore. if the guy who runs 47 laps will take your motor and battery pack and run it against you i would bet he does 47 laps with your own stuff.

there isn't any short cut to running fast. brushless motors have realy magnified a bad chassis even more.

If i am running a car with the same exact set-up from oils to springs to shock legnths to tie rods put in the same exact hole on shock tower to tire compounds and same body just different paint and you run together and say i am running 41 laps and the other car gets 47 laps whats wrong with this picture.
then lets explain a perfect set-up that will make this car fast.......

Over the years I have come to "my own" conclusions on this,
and I'm sure there will be plenty that disgaree.

The driver is a lot more of a factor than a lot of folks would like to admit.
Probably because everyone keeps talking about chassis until we want
to puke. Yeah... it's important... I know. So does everyone else.

Needthat's scenario gets played out all the time.
I build, in my own mind, a pretty decent car.
I have a good working knowledge of race car dynamics.
I'm always bouncing ideas around with guys that I respect
as top guys in the hobby..
My cars at times have as fast laps as the guys that
win the A-mains consistently.
So what is the difference?
The difference is, smoothness with the wheel.
I can blame all the races I've lost on batteries.
On motors.
On getting doinked.
Or any one of another hundred things.
But the fact is, I'm just not as smooth as the really really good guys...
If I run a 3.61 lap on lap 37..... but the rest of the laps are around 3.79,
there is your lap or two in a race.
Not the batteries..
Not the chassis.
But the driver.

I'm lucky, I race with some really good guys.
And every now and then, I can stay with them, or even maybe come
out of a turn and have to lift to keep from dumping them.
But then miss a turn by a few inches, and it completely toasts your lap.

I'm talking 1/2 tenths to tenths here... not bouncing off the wall..

When I watch the good guys run, and they put there car 2 inches off the tape
lap after lap after lap... THERE is where I am getting beat.
Not batteries... not setup... not motor.

I've seen it time and time again....
I've taken other people's cars, and driven them faster, with no changes,
than the owner. I've given my car to guys, and they have driven it
faster... with no changes.

I've also seen some of the top drivers come off the track with a blown
shock, and still went better than most...
And we wonder about whether or not our kingpin lube is the right one??

At an invitational race that I went to several weeks ago,
I saw guys there that run the track maybe once or twice a year.
And they were stout.. Good cars... good equipment...
but more importantly, were just as smooth as silk....

You can have a great setup, and all of the other other bells and whistles.
That might get you into the top of the middle tier, for example.
But you may just not have that steady, and smooth 'touch' that it takes
to be on that top rung of the ladder.
It isn't because you didn't put a .010" spacer on your left front axle,
It isn't because your caster was off by 1/2 degree...
It isn't because you didn't give the effort 100%..

Don't confuse any of this with throwing in the towel.
I race hard, and work on my cars all of the time.
But I know the guys I race with,
and the ones that I wish I could race with.
And I don't have any problems with that...
just a lot of respect for the top wheels in the house.. :thumbsup:

Over the years I have come to "my own" conclusions on this,
and I'm sure there will be plenty that disgaree.

The driver is a lot more of a factor than a lot of folks would like to admit.
Probably because everyone keeps talking about chassis until we want
to puke. Yeah... it's important... I know. So does everyone else.

Needthat's scenario gets played out all the time.
I build, in my own mind, a pretty decent car.
I have a good working knowledge of race car dynamics.
I'm always bouncing ideas around with guys that I respect
as top guys in the hobby..
My cars at times have as fast laps as the guys that
win the A-mains consistently.
So what is the difference?
The difference is, smoothness with the wheel.
I can blame all the races I've lost on batteries.
On motors.
On getting doinked.
Or any one of another hundred things.
But the fact is, I'm just not as smooth as the really really good guys...
If I run a 3.61 lap on lap 37..... but the rest of the laps are around 3.79,
there is your lap or two in a race.
Not the batteries..
Not the chassis.
But the driver.

I'm lucky, I race with some really good guys.
And every now and then, I can stay with them, or even maybe come
out of a turn and have to lift to keep from dumping them.
But then miss a turn by a few inches, and it completely toasts your lap.

I'm talking 1/2 tenths to tenths here... not bouncing off the wall..

When I watch the good guys run, and they put there car 2 inches off the tape
lap after lap after lap... THERE is where I am getting beat.
Not batteries... not setup... not motor.

I've seen it time and time again....
I've taken other people's cars, and driven them faster, with no changes,
than the owner. I've given my car to guys, and they have driven it
faster... with no changes.

I've also seen some of the top drivers come off the track with a blown
shock, and still went better than most...
And we wonder about whether or not our kingpin lube is the right one??

At an invitational race that I went to several months ago,
I saw guys there that run the track maybe once or twice a year.
And they were stout.. Good cars... good equipment...
but more importantly, were just as smooth as silk....

You can have a great setup, and all of the other other bells and whistles.
That might get you into the top of the middle tier, for example.
But you may just not have that steady, and smooth 'touch' that it takes
to be on that top rung of the ladder.
It isn't because you didn't put a .010" spacer on your left front axle,
It isn't because your caster was off by 1/2 degree...
It isn't because you didn't give the effort 100%..

Don't confuse any of this with throwing in the towel.
I race hard, and work on my cars all of the time.
But I know the guys I race with,
and the ones that I wish I could race with.
And I don't have any problems with that...
just a lot of respect for the top wheels in the house.. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: This has got to be one of the best posts I've ever read on any board. :thumbsup:

because he is honest! i guess we all think we are equal wheels? lol nah it can't be old age and reaction times can it? nah i'll just buy a 100.00 team pack and make up for that! lol

I read Dan's statement/comment with a smile on my face...

I just had what sounded almost exactly like the same conversation the other day at the track.

I've been driving, tuning and working on my stuff for 20+ years..yet I can NEVER feel the difference in the .001" shim difference on the RF wheel, or the LR wheel...or the .2" change in the slider tray position. My driving level, although was never 'great', it has gotten worse with age..but I still have my 'GOOD DAYS'

This past weekend, at our local club track (Square Indy Style cornered Oval Parking lot track) my 17.5/LIPO car was DIALED and I TQ'd and Won. BIG DEAL! it was a local club race... But, it was against my SON - who is getting really good, John Miles - who has been really good for quite a while, and a blast to race against. Dave Mayhew Sr. - he's a TOUGH cookie to get around - and he races hard, but clean and a few others in the class.

I battled Lap after Lap after Lap with John and Dave, the three of us were Nose to Tail for much of the 5 minute main..and I thought I was fighting for 2nd spot. With about a minute to go, I found out I was leading by a full lap and actually in position to put these guys down a lap...(I backed off the throttle and followed - protected the lead and the WIN) But it was one of the most fun races I've run in quite a while...

In the NASTRUCK class - I just drove into the INFIELD Turn3 wall - Lap after Lap. The car wasn't quite right...and NEITHER was the DRIVER (ME) trying to be WAY too aggressive.

is what WHY WE CALL IT RACING and we go every week

Brushless in Touring is already above and beyond testing..There already playing with Speedos and dynoing Brushless motors all kinds of stuff happening on the end of racing...:)

in responce to dan i feel what u r sayin and i agree 200% but when u r going down the back stretch and that car just wwwzzzzzzzzzz goes right buy u like u r sitting still and motor winding and screaming like open mod it just makes u think geee what r these guys doing. i am not new to this hobby i have been around this since 1991 1992. but really i am out to have fun. but it just get frustraitin :freak: :freak:

Great Post Dan !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here try these the last one is long but good

http://www.bigjimracing.com/tuningtips.php
http://www.motortuningsecrets.com/tunestockmotor.html
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/archive/index.php/t-126994.html

in responce to dan i feel what u r sayin and i agree 200% but when u r going down the back stretch and that car just wwwzzzzzzzzzz goes right buy u like u r sitting still and motor winding and screaming like open mod it just makes u think geee what r these guys doing. i am not new to this hobby i have been around this since 1991 1992. but really i am out to have fun. but it just get frustraitin :freak: :freak:

What is more then likely happening is that car that whizzes by you and is winding up is carrying a ton more corner speed. Remember in Oval, starightaway speed is NOTHING it is ALL CORNER SPEED. If you have fast corner times the straights will take care of themselves.

Do this next time you are at the track. Pick two spots, a spot entering the corner and a spot exiting the corner. Now time the FAST GUYS through just that portion. Now have someone time you, it will be very enlightening. It is to me every single time. ;)

Scott, you can get through the corner a lot faster if you hit that big red jump in the middle of the corner!

Oh yeah! And we have pictures to prove it, don't we?

i'm telling you trade your motor and batteries with on eof those fast car owners..you will get depressed quickly.

i'm telling you trade your motor and batteries with on eof those fast car owners..you will get depressed quickly.

Yep, see my post above. Right?

I would have to agree that a good setup is what makes the car fast.

There are a few things that can be done to make a brushed motor perform better though. These are just the ones I know of, I'm sure there are many more. Most are basic and everyone knows of them. These are the tools I'm thinking of...

- Brush hood alignment tool.
- Brush cutting jig.
- Brush drilling jig.
- Spring tension checker.
- Commutator Lathe.
- Motor Dyno.
- Magnet Zapper.

Some try to find a motor with an commutator advanced by looking in the brush hoods.
If your buddies with a motor builder you can get one of the special motors set aside after hundreds of motor had been dynoed.
You might also be able to get a armature that has been lightened by drilling the balancing holes.