Where does ROAR stand on the batteries that are exploding lately? Will there be a banning of these cells and will ROAR insist on some type of re call from the manufacturer?

Of all the posts that are put out about it, I'm sure there is an equal amount of incidents that are not being reported. This leaves me to think that it’s only a matter of time before someone gets really hurt.

Where does ROAR stand on the batteries that are exploding lately? Will there be a banning of these cells and will ROAR insist on some type of re call from the manufacturer?

Of all the posts that are put out about it, I'm sure there is an equal amount of incidents that are not being reported. This leaves me to think that it’s only a matter of time before someone gets really hurt.

its in discussion...

my research shows most of these are charging situations......

lets find out if they are batteries or racers NOT using the recommended charging practices first... :)

its in discussion...

my research shows most of these are charging situations......

lets find out if they are batteries or racers NOT using the recommended charging practices first... :)

this is 100% a battery issue!

I thought like that about charging until I saw for my own eyes guys that have never had an issue and really try to make there stuff lasts so they go easy on them and they still blow up!

I know people abuse batteries but you never heard of several packs bursting weekly at club level races. I agree that you will most likely hear this happening at big races every now and again just as it has in the past but this problem has really gotten out of control.

I would like to see the companies that import these just switch to something else like EP and the sanctioning bodies and large race promoters say no more IB's.

With that said I am a racer and like many I will run what is fastest to give myself the best chance but if it wasn't an option for anyone we would all be better off!

this is 100% a battery issue!

I thought like that about charging until I saw for my own eyes guys that have never had an issue and really try to make there stuff lasts so they go easy on them and they still blow up!

I know people abuse batteries but you never heard of several packs bursting weekly at club level races. I agree that you will most likely hear this happening at big races every now and again just as it has in the past but this problem has really gotten out of control.

I would like to see the companies that import these just switch to something else like EP and the sanctioning bodies and large race promoters say no more IB's.

With that said I am a racer and like many I will run what is fastest to give myself the best chance but if it wasn't an option for anyone we would all be better off!

IF.. it is a battery issue... our research which we are conducting now, will reflect in our rules and our policies. To ban a particular product is not what ROAR is about.... you as customers can make choices on your own and not purchase those products you know are not safe...

although, YES.. ROAR is looking into this and will make a determination in the new year.

Dawn, As much as you and I have agreed on things in the past, I have to say that I think this “study and research” approach is flat out wrong. Far be it from me to advise ROAR on what to do but this is not a “wait and see” situation. This is a problem that is going to get someone hurt!

If it were just one or two occasions, anyone could say that it’s a few isolated incidents but just about every weekend there is a report of one or two going off. These could not ALL be because of charging problems! It’s great that ROAR is at least looking into it but the danger of someone getting hurt is, as they say, “real and present”.

It may not be ROAR’s position to band anything but it should also not be their position to keep allowing a known dangerous product to remain approved.

A temporary band on this one particular cell is certainly called for until the manufacture finds the problem and takes care of it. Study and test the “new” stuff, we KNOW the old stuff is BAD!

Its easy to stop .. Like Dawn Said if people quit Buying them they will go Away ... Everyone is wanting someone else to take blame or to Ban Products ... Just quit Buying them .. I personally had one Blow up at SRS .. Dawns Track ... And After that I threw the Rest away ... And Bought all new EP Packs ... Wasnt worth complaining about ,,, If theres a Problem fix it yourselves ..Stop poing fingers at ROAR to save the World ... Not there Job...

I agree that we are the ones that are ultimately the care takers of our own safety and we are responsible for what we buy and use. BUT at the same time these cells are still “approved” by ROAR and in my opinion, it would serve all of us if their approval was recanted.

I’m sure that this is a problem that IB will fix but nothing can be done to fix the cells that are already out there and in the hands of racers and they should not be allowed to stay on the list of approved cells.

Humpty,
I have got to ask, What type batterys and How many packs did you throw away?

8 Packs IB 4200

I wish I could give you guys some update as to the progression of Lipo approval in ROAR for 2008. I can't... not cuz I'm keeping secrets but because well, we havne't received the kind of specs from MFG's we are needing and there's more to consider than just allowing batteries.

One thing, I am not in favor of changing weights because of lighter batteries.. this will cause all kinds of conversation.

Also, battery approvals are twice a year. Those companies who submitted batteries for 10/1 approval are on the list. The next approval dates are April. We can't go makign another approval date because some company comes out with a cell inbetween dates and people want to buy them.... hence, battery wars all over again...

Lets be sensible about this.... either figure out NO approval system or streamline what there is... :)

ROAR meets mid January to discuss all rules for 2008 and make some major modifications to what we have.... until then, I'm just not able to post any decisions because, there aren't any without research.

About the batteries blowing up... don't buy the ones you have heard this happens to. Humpty is right, ROAR cannot police this. We approved cells from what we received and in the meantime, the cells may or may not have an issue... its up to that company to offer recalls and resupply the racers. I am sorry to be so harsh.. but it is what it is.

One thing, I am not in favor of changing weights because of lighter batteries.. this will cause all kinds of conversation.

Dawn,

I've always thought changing a WEIGHT rule because of battery weight was SILLY - but ROAR has done it a couple times now when batteries got HEAVIER, and I never understood why. The small guys who may have stayed with the older batteries then had to ADD weight. (This wasn't so much a deal for a NATIONAL level event, because those guys usually get NEW stuff...but for small local clubs who try to follow the rules to the letter...cause they don't know any better...this caused issues (Maybe not a lot...but SOME)

If theres a Problem fix it yourselves ..Stop poing fingers at ROAR to save the World ... Not there Job...


The PROBLEM is generally RACERS more than PRODUCTS. Those guys who THINK they have to have the EDGE and push things a lot further than they should be pushed...

I'm sure some guys won't QUIT running the IB's unless there is a BOLDLY written RULE making them stop...cause they are FASTER when they are not blowing UP....just as if a guy THINKS he can charge at 12-14 amps and have an advantge...HE'LL do it...regardless of the fact there is a chance he could BLOW himself up or set the track on fire...or hurt someone else. I'm sure he'll say "SORRY" after it blows though...so that makes it all better.

I’m sorry and I don’t mean to keep whipping this horse but if an organization has the power to approve something then they have the power to disapprove it. I’m sure that everything that is sent to ROAR does not get approved. I still say that this is a safety issue and needs to be addressed not “buck passed”.

YES it is up to the racer to use common since but just as swtour posted, that’s just not going to happen. As long as they remain legal, racers will use and abuse them, this is not only dangerous for them but for the racer sitting next to them that HAS used common since.

guys it looks like for now in the use IB's will be gone. SMC and trinity (our major suppliers of cells) are now importing ep4600 (trinity) and ener-g 4600 (smc/promatch) so what you'll see is must of the matchers doing these cells.

I know this does absolutely nothing to gaurentee that these new cells won't blow up. but what it does do is give us some choices.

hopefully both of these cells will be good reliable cells. and they won't try to one up each other.

if one thing can be learned from the past years it's one singel cell supplier doesn't work. and with there being 2 types of cells hopefully the maunfactor won't take chances on a fragile cell

Just my 2 cents here folks ...............I have seen one IB 4200 blow up and one EP 4200 blow up. These two incidents were 6 to 9 months apart. So if I personaly have seen a EP as well as a IB blow, what do we do use everready batteries ? BTW the EP that blew was being charged at either 6 or 6.5 amps and a .02 cut off on a turbo 30 or 35. Whatever the backlit model is.

I do agree that there are racers out there who "push things" to far for a supossed edge. But there are those of us who stay within the lines and race safe. I have IB 4200's that are over a yr old and some that are only a couple weeks old. They all get the same 6 amp charge with a .02 cutoff with a long lock out to avoid false peaking. When and If I repeak it's at 6.5 MAYBE 7 amps. I think anything higher is bad for the battery and dangerous for the racer or otheres nearby.

if one thing can be learned from the past years it's one singel cell supplier doesn't work.

Which 'SINGLE CELL' supplier didn't work...and what didn't work about it. (I've never seen the case of a SINGLE supplier, only a single mfg. being used at ALL the races, unless you refer to TRINITY contracting as being the only IMPORTER of the cells....and EVERYONE having to get from them before they could match..driving the freakin prices through the ROOF!)

sorry I meant manufacture

McLin, there is no way a sanctioning organization can retract an approval after the fact. The cells submitted, per the rules, were approved. Now, months later, they have been having some safety issues.... according to the internet keyboard wizards.

Yes, ROAR can and will make statements regarding charging recommendations and those found outside of those recommendations could be sanctioned - the racers....

ultimately, its your responsibility to follow the rules and follow common sense practices, including safety.

As for IB... if the cells are bad, I would assume they will do something about it. If they are not, this is just awful all the 'talk' about blowing up cells causing injuries and demands on the sanctioning body to do something about it.

McLin, there is no way a sanctioning organization can retract an approval after the fact. The cells submitted, per the rules, were approved. Now, months later, they have been having some safety issues.... according to the internet keyboard wizards.

Yes, ROAR can and will make statements regarding charging recommendations and those found outside of those recommendations could be sanctioned - the racers....

ultimately, its your responsibility to follow the rules and follow common sense practices, including safety.

As for IB... if the cells are bad, I would assume they will do something about it. If they are not, this is just awful all the 'talk' about blowing up cells causing injuries and demands on the sanctioning body to do something about it.
Are you a racer Dawn ? If so you know these aren't RUMORS .
Have you been to a big event the last three months? Then you know these arent RUMORS.
I no longer run IB cells with that said.
If one blows up at a ROAR race because ROAR approved there safe use if used properly.And me or one of my KIDS are hurt not only will I sue the battery Manufacture.I will sue ROAR for knowingly allowing these bombs.Yes I am a ROAR MEMBER and proud of it.I like ROAR but quit sticking your heads in the sand.

rc-cola that is a foolish answer. And that is from another ROAR member-#7540 (since 1979).

I was at the biggest dirt oval race in USA (Custom Works US Open Wheel Championships) with over over 400 entries. There was one battery out of hundreds that vented and the user admitted that he had a charger issue.

The revised IB was used at this event by my team and other teams with 0 safety issues.

If you request that IB be banned from use then EP will have to join the list as they have blown up also. Lipos have had their issues. If we ban every battery manufacturer that has had issues there will be no racing.

McLin, there is no way a sanctioning organization can retract an approval after the fact. The cells submitted, per the rules, were approved. Now, months later, they have been having some safety issues.... according to the internet keyboard wizards.

Yes, ROAR can and will make statements regarding charging recommendations and those found outside of those recommendations could be sanctioned - the racers....

ultimately, its your responsibility to follow the rules and follow common sense practices, including safety.

As for IB... if the cells are bad, I would assume they will do something about it. If they are not, this is just awful all the 'talk' about blowing up cells causing injuries and demands on the sanctioning body to do something about it.


LOL, Proof Roar is so out of touch with racers its silly!!!!!! Or is it they just don't CARE!

Are you a racer Dawn ? If so you know these aren't RUMORS .
Have you been to a big event the last three months? Then you know these arent RUMORS.
I no longer run IB cells with that said.
If one blows up at a ROAR race because ROAR approved there safe use if used properly.And me or one of my KIDS are hurt not only will I sue the battery Manufacture.I will sue ROAR for knowingly allowing these bombs.Yes I am a ROAR MEMBER and proud of it.I like ROAR but quit sticking your heads in the sand.

So, your going to take yourself and your kids to an event that you believe are allowing these dangerous batteries that you refer to as "bombs". Wow, that sounds like child endangerment and suicidal depression. Perhaps Children Services should remove your children from your custody and the state should put you in custody to protect you from harming yourself.

Dosen't sound like a lawsuit that would hold well in court either.

Since you are pretty much buying batteries from battery matchers, who charge and discharge the cells outside of the manufacturers specs, the manufacturer is not liable for the battery matchers misuse and abuse of their products. To further complicate who is responsible, the end consumer also charges and discharges the batteries outside of the manufacturer specs.

so, let me get this straight...

your answer is ROAR should BAN all cells that are rumored to have blown up....

Ok, got it.

Moving on.

And, thanks for the verbal beating here. I'll be sure I refrain from commenting again when asked a question. And, yes, I'm a racer.... why that is relevant? I don't get it but I suppose 20 year involvement in the sport isn't enough for some people?? :)

It's the RACERS responsiblity to take proper care of their batteries. Does ROAR need a personnel representative standing behind each racer in their pits to supervise them? Having an RC racer wanting to go to an event just to sue someone- We don't need these people. I've blown up packs before and guess what they were my own stupid fault!Did I blame someone else- heck no.
Racers have and will always pushed the envelope on batteries- we have ourself to blame.

OK, this is too silly and stop jumping all over Dawn! Guys like you rc-cola hiding behind a screen name and can't even be serious about your location. You want ROAR and people like Dawn to reply to you and then turn around and treat them like this. I emailed Dawn yesterday to see if anything was up dealing with the battery issues. She was kind enough to not only reply but post the reply so everyone could see it. If you send polite, professional emails and posts Dawn and others at ROAR do respond and you do get straight up answers. They may not be the answer you want, but they do give you the information that they can. Rants like what have been posted here since Dawn posted are just shameful and will only hurt the sport you say you enjoy.

ROAR is correct in that they should not ban the cells they already approved. I myself have a 4200 that is working just fine and is almost a year old. Would you want every one that has ones that were properly built to no longer be able to use them? That would be a great way to chase away racers.

Do I think ROAR needs to make a statement on the cell issue, yes, said so in my email and got a good replay back on that. ROAR can't just jump at an instant of posting of a problem. Remember, they only approve the initial submission for products. What would racers and manufactures say if they had to keep recertifying compliance and pay the fees to have the testing done as well as the liability costs to make such a statement? I'm sure rc-cola will happily want to help pay for that cost.

Is there a problem, yep, I can say by direct observation and confirmed by drivers heavily sponsored by some larger matchers. But bottom line it’s not ROAR's issue to make sure that batch to batch cells remain in spec and safe. Imagine the delay if every batch had to be certified and tested. Should only take 6 months to 8 months longer to get cells to racers and to even offer to this they would have to force the matchers not to sell cells until approved to prevent bad/illegal cells out there. Tech would be great fun too, imagine having to match cells to approved batches.

As another racer with 20+ years experience...I can't say I would support a BAN on IB's cells...but what IS the answer?

There have been a lot of IB cells with problems this season, moreso than ANY other cell that I've ever heard of...however, what are the real numbers of cell explosions vs. the number of cells sold? Is this an acceptable number?

I have seen and heard 2 4200 IB explosions this year, but I also saw the results of a 3800 IB explosion in Mid Summer and those were nearly 1 1/2 year old cells, and most of us have at least seen pics of Exploded EP cells.

I've said this before..and I'll say it again... WE as RACERS need to be careful, carry a fire extingusher, protect our eye sight, be smart and IF WE are worried about the products we are using, WE should (On our OWN) discontinue their use.

MY issue personally with IB4200's isn't their BLOWING UP - it's their CELLS going dead and my packs going to JUNK prematurely. I didn't have a SINGLE CELL Blow Up, but I had 7 of my 9 packs this year just DIE in between 2 weeks of racing. (3 packs of SMC's were less than 2 months old, the TMExpress Packs were close to 3 months old, the Pro-Match's were also about 3 months old) The IB3800's I used for our spec. class were 2 1/2 years old. THAT'S MY PROBLEM with IB4200's

People need to be educated on how to correctly charge a NiMh battery.....(equalize...if any dead cells...charge 10 minutes, discharge, equalize again then charge...peak detect voltage start at 2 mv per cell, peak temp 130 degrees)
My experience...these cells get hot...5 mv delta-peak voltage will get them way to hot.

Very experienced racers are charging them wrong...trust me...I was one of them. (Wasn't equalizing at all on practice packs...until Justin from JBR pointed out that was very bad). Had some friends blow up one of the packs I borrowed from them due charging when 2 cells were at 0 volts.

so, let me get this straight...

your answer is ROAR should BAN all cells that are rumored to have blown up....

Ok, got it.

Moving on.



Dawn, I am glad you are here to get the answers out to us. I also understand why statements like this get people worked up. The problem with ib4200's blowing up isn't a rumor it is a fact. I haven't blown up one cell (not even one I got 265 deg.)(but I will this weekend cause I have just cursed myself) but I have seen atleast a dozen blow up in the last 6 months so it isn't a rumor to me.

I do however agree that ROAR has no real ability to control one batch to the next and we as racers should make our own choices on what cells to run or not and take whatever precautions we can to try not to get hurt.

OK, this is too silly and stop jumping all over Dawn! Guys like you rc-cola hiding behind a screen name and can't even be serious about your location. You want ROAR and people like Dawn to reply to you and then turn around and treat them like this. I emailed Dawn yesterday to see if anything was up dealing with the battery issues. She was kind enough to not only reply but post the reply so everyone could see it. If you send polite, professional emails and posts Dawn and others at ROAR do respond and you do get straight up answers. They may not be the answer you want, but they do give you the information that they can. Rants like what have been posted here since Dawn posted are just shameful and will only hurt the sport you say you enjoy.

ROAR is correct in that they should not ban the cells they already approved. I myself have a 4200 that is working just fine and is almost a year old. Would you want every one that has ones that were properly built to no longer be able to use them? That would be a great way to chase away racers.


Do I think ROAR needs to make a statement on the cell issue, yes, said so in my email and got a good replay back on that. ROAR can't just jump at an instant of posting of a problem. Remember, they only approve the initial submission for products. What would racers and manufactures say if they had to keep recertifying compliance and pay the fees to have the testing done as well as the liability costs to make such a statement? I'm sure rc-cola will happily want to help pay for that cost.

Is there a problem, yep, I can say by direct observation and confirmed by drivers heavily sponsored by some larger matchers. But bottom line it’s not ROAR's issue to make sure that batch to batch cells remain in spec and safe. Imagine the delay if every batch had to be certified and tested. Should only take 6 months to 8 months longer to get cells to racers and to even offer to this they would have to force the matchers not to sell cells until approved to prevent bad/illegal cells out there. Tech would be great fun too, imagine having to match cells to approved batches.


It is not a rule to post your real name. Location North pole LOL What does that matter? It don't. I didnt see you sign off with yours. I am not attacking Dawn those are examples of why Roar dosen't know whats going on with these cells. I cant what until we are lipo only. IMO way safer.

TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM TOM

Fair enough Tom, many already know me here. David "Fish" Hering. ROAR No. 5-99982. Nope its not required but if your going to post what you have been posting, see how brave you are with your name out there and not just spammed as a first name only in a post. You did question Dawn's involvement in the sport. You are the one that started to use the word "rumor". You are the one that used the word "sue" and that word posted pointing at any leagle entity like ROAR will 100% end any and all communication. Thats just a real world fact. Also, ROAR never approves the "safe use" of any product, only that it complies with the standard. ROAR in no way could ever approve as safe or make any outher quality/safety claim to any product, thats falls to the ones making the product.

When I started this thread, it was not my intent to bash ROAR and certainly not Dawn. It may be her job or it may just be that she is the only one that will put up with these threads and try to get the latest information out to us but the fact is she does her job very will and should not have to take the blunt of some of the remarks made on here.

While I absolutely do not agree with ROAR’s response or reasoning I will have to be content to agree to disagree and let it go.

IB has a “new issue” of cells that, as best as I can find out, are doing well and if the trend follows as it always has, racers will jump on the latest thing and not be racing the bad ones anymore anyway. HOWEVER I would urge everyone to NOT sell your old cells to anyone ESPECIALLY new racers but rather, destroy them.

So, since I was the one that opened this thread I would like to see it closed, it has gotten too far off center to be constructive anymore.

And to Dawn; I apologies to you for having to go through all of the bashing over something that I started, it was not the way I wanted things to go.

WOW, tommygun is dead on as many others that have pointed out proper battery care is very very important.

Has anyone contacted IB on this issue, If so what was there responce???

Racers have been venting or blowing up cells since we started, But should we blame ROAR or the manufacturer for us as racers abusing the product. Either by not charging them right, I have done it myself (OOPS I forgot to start changing well I charge it at 10 amps that should it), And I'm pretty sure a high pertcentage of racers have done the same thing. If the battery would of blewup should I blame some else for the problem ,NO. Or we don't maintain them right.

So I guess me as a Hobbyshop owner should be held responsable for the batteries, Because i sold them too the racer. Everyone loves to point , but mom always said it's not nice to point.

I'm sure that in some way they will fix the problem, But there will always be someone out there pushing the limits and the battery or whatever you are working with breaks.

It is just like in racing you hit the inside corner and start yelling at the corner marshall ,was it their fault you hit the wall ???

I have been racing for 20 years. I have seen 1200ma batteries hiss, pop and smoke!!!!!
Today the 4200ma battery HISS, EXPLODE, BURN and can be a MISSEL!!!!!!
Maybe it is a size thing????

We all need to be careful of how we treat our batteries. We can say it is not the manufactures fault if we abuse them. In today’s world when a little-old lady, going to a Mickey-D drive-threw and spills hot coffee one her bottom, then sues Mickey- D for making the coffee to hot and win in court.

It is hard to say what a lawyer would do with an injury from a battery that was abused by the racer.

Which is more dangerous to the hobby, the battery or the lawyer?

This is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

The R/C would have better luck in using batteries that other industries are using. Right now powertools manufactures are switching to LiFe based batteries for tools. Why: Are they cheaper? Not really. Are they more reliable and safer? YES and that is why.

Ag-Zn batteries are used in space to withstand the extreme tempature swings without failures
LiFeS2 (1.5V, high rate d-c) are used in mining whre the slightest errant spark will cause a boom with the natural gases presnt underground.
LiFeSO4 (3.3V, high rate d-c) have proven sucessfull in up 60C discharge rates as with the A123Systems batteries.

And to Dawn; I apologies to you for having to go through all of the bashing over something that I started, it was not the way I wanted things to go.



No Hard feelings.. :)

And, I'm not sure closing this thread would be the answer.... I think some good information has come from it and I have printed it in full for the Excom meeting next month.

I think we all need to remember how easy it is to say what we want behind the keyboard and forget messages being read can be and will be taken a little differently than face to face. :)

For me, I will answer any email or message forum post that I see when treated with respect and the inquiry is not some manipulation of the facts..... I have always done so and will ensure I will continue. The membership deserves to know. And, yes, your name and ROAR number is helpful.. so I know who I am speaking to and that ROAR is relevant to you....

You guys are great and this is by far my favorite message board to visit.... :)

build a battery vault and stop giving dawn a hard time. Lipo's explode too! maybe an emergency amendment to allow some other manufaturers cells is in order to help with the transition. Go Ener-G!

Nice post Dawn what are you some kind of fool!!! lol JK thanks for the answers Dawn. and thanks for caring

guys batteries just don't exploded they always give some sign that something is wrong.

so here is what i suggest
1st S.T.F.U.
2nd don't hammer the packs at 9 amps with a .03 cut off.
3rd actually monitor your pack while it's charging. watch the voltage check heat and listen for venting.

Nice post Dawn what are you some kind of fool!!!

:)

if you only knew what I am about to take on.... oh boy... :)

I've been using one of these for my Lipos:http://mysite.verizon.net/kevinkel/index.html
Maybe I'll us it with my NiMh's also.

It wouldn't matter what batteries we used- why because we would and do abuse them.When we run to close to our next qualifier or main what do we do -bump up the amps.I've seen batteries abused many times by myself. Now I've got the lipos and own no NIMH as of last week.Now I've got to learn to plug in the batteries earlier so they will be charged in time.I've left my lipos strapped in ty TC for over two weeks on the bench in the house.Before with my NIMH I had them in a nice battery case in the same room in the house.Well my house is still standing. So If I can't keep the lipos in the car- or battery box do I put them in the middle of the driveway so IF they catch fire it will just make a mark on the cement?

The BB wouldn't solve every issue, but a lot off them. Jimmy Flack had one blow up while going through tech. I am curious what the temp of these packs are before they explode. the light at the end of the tunnel, however...I witnessed a six cell EP pack go through the abuse of a turbo 35 locking out into an automatic second charge. The pack reached 225-235 degrees. NO "Hiss", No "Pop" and it ran good on the track. Go Figure!

I agree with tommygunn start a how-to charge for dummies thread...Ill read it!

ProMatch has a good write up...http://www.promatchracing.com/ibins.php

I think the bottom paragraph is important, about equalizing.