question is the thrust up and down or front to back so guess you just have to decide if you want to sit on the spark plug or put it between your legs when you climb in the clown car for testing LOLOLOLOL

Guys, being that Randy Baker and I were the first in 1/4 scale to lay the motors down. I will give you the benifits of it and the reason we did it. Actually in sprint cars Bob Elliot was the first to lay the motor down and in a stock car it was the cracker car. That being said. It is not the piston movement, it is not the center of gravity. It was to get the carb up in cleaner cooler air. Period. GC gain is minimal and piston movement was not even considered. Randy and I bench raced this topic on a drive home after a race. We both agreed that getting the carb up in cool clean air would be a benifit and it is.

Fred

My cars have the option to lay the motors down but I have chosen not to. The only reason I have not is because there hasnt been anyone out there to prove that there in fact is a measurable difference. In fact I would say seven out of the ten fastest guys in the nation still have theirs stood up. Could they be even faster if their motors were layed down, possibly, but im still not sold on it personally. I think if anything you may raise the center of gravity because you dont lower the crank height at all and although you get the jug from being way up in the air, you put a carb, cup, and air cleaner up there in its place. I think Fred is right on this one. The biggest advantage is getting fresh air to the motor. Is it measurable in a sprint car, probably, but I dont think it would be in a stock car. A lot of our local guys have layed theres down such as Brent and Bob, and seem to like them that way. I suppose its just different strokes for different folks!

My cars have the option to lay the motors down but I have chosen not to. The only reason I have not is because there hasnt been anyone out there to prove that there in fact is a measurable difference. In fact I would say seven out of the ten fastest guys in the nation still have theirs stood up. Could they be even faster if their motors were layed down, possibly, but im still not sold on it personally. I think if anything you may raise the center of gravity because you dont lower the crank height at all and although you get the jug from being way up in the air, you put a carb, cup, and air cleaner up there in its place. I think Fred is right on this one. The biggest advantage is getting fresh air to the motor. Is it measurable in a sprint car, probably, but I dont think it would be in a stock car. A lot of our local guys have layed theres down such as Brent and Bob, and seem to like them that way. I suppose its just different strokes for different folks!i agree in a full body car dont see how it could get cleaner air unless the roof was cut out because hot air and or gas rises there is air flowing under the car as well its all getting mixed up in there i check the plug more than i adjust the carb so i like it up but like you said diffrent strokes its the new thing to do i belive most do it for looks others do it for ease of adjusting the carb and some think there gaining something i cant say for sure i am just a rookie

It seams for the last couple of years there's been alot of discussion about laydown or stand up motors , pro and cons . Fred Murry said he and I were the first to lay ours down in the sprint cars and in all actuallity Bob Elliott ( the gear guy ) had his laid down in 01 when the sprint car class started to make a come back . The first stock car I knew of that had one ( lay down ) was John Fergeson from out in California I believe it is . When he had a couple posts on the starting grid about his car and some pictures I got ahold of him and asked for a couple pictures of the clutch side mount and from those I came up with what I use . The first stock car I know of to use a laydown this side of the Misssissippi was Brent Gotfried in a WCM . Enough of the history of who done what and when . All theories and findings thus far are valid I imagine . My first thoughts of doing the laydown was lower center of gravity and rolling the head weight forward for more front end bite in the sprint car , which were notorious for pushing like a dump truck . At the same time when I built the car I moved the motor plate forward and made the slots longer so I could use larger belts than a 240 or 250 . Now I use 280 to 300 's depending on gearing or how the car acts . Fred came up with the cleaner air idea and it made sense to me . In the sprint car I think the cleaner air theory works better because of the air filter being out in the open as opposed to the stock cars . As far as the other theories or oppions go , I don't know never thought of them . I did try standing the motor back up once and the car reacted somewhat different , coming out of the corners especially and the rpms seamed to be lower , and I figured it was because of the way I had to drive it out of the corners . Bottom line for the reason I tried the laydown was I was looking at the 1/5 scale cars and theirs are laydowns and I figured it was for a reason and what the heck why not try it . Laydown works for me , guess everybody will have to decide for themselves .
Randy

You know, I always think of Randy as a stand-up kinda guy...
Obviously I was wrong. :)

NOTE: the above was an attempt at humor!!!

Randy is fast; there is no denying that fact! And a great guy to boot!!!

Joe Brooks
:thumbsup:

Don't give this guy a swelled head, he'll get top heavy again...LOL

Randy, Well said. Again, i have said this over and over. it ain't the motor, it's the corner speed. Set your car or (sprinter) up to be fast in the corner and the horsepower , clean air, heat or whatever your theroy is will not make any difference. Have fun with it, but work on the chassis, and radio settings. Oh and one more thing, TURN LEFT!!! Almost forgot that....

Well i could go into this topic deep. but it wouldn't do a bit of good.

Since alot of decent theory's have been thrown out there.It is really simple.

Rattler has given good theory. some should listen.
Randy Brown has given what works for him.Read application.on different cars. great.
jbell31 has many times expressed, chassis. work on it.

Kinda funny really.If you don't experiment with all above. you will stay in a groove and won't find your way out of it. All things do make a change. If it costs you a weekend race with what you changed. you done good. you know what works for you.Don't ever give up on change.

From a old man who changes almost everything. every outing. LEARN what works for you!!!!!

Run hard and turn left. Don't worry about the motor being up or down. Lay down works good with truck body.

I by no means am a expert on any of this, but I put my new car together with the laydown motor for one reason. I feel that it lowers the center of gravity in the car, and in my full size race cars we try to get the center of gravity as low as we can so why not in "LITTLE TOY CARS" also!!!...


DD

I like the laydown better also but alot of guys don't. It has to change something because the setup changes in each car.

question is the thrust up and down or front to back so guess you just have to decide if you want to sit on the spark plug or put it between your legs when you climb in the clown car for testing LOLOLOLOLdang willy you should have taken this to the swap and sell area. didn't know you where running that kind of toy store!!!!LOLlol

I know am new with this stuff.I need someone to help me with the center of gravity.If the motor is layed down.How much is gained.Compared to standing upright.With the clutch on the side does that play into the CG.Then if you use a full cage frame do the roof rails come into play? If i add weight to the rails hows does this change the CG.

Thanks ED

In all reality it doesnt change the center of gravity. the center of the crankshaft is a little bit higher when layed down if anything. The only thing you may gain is getting the weight of the jug a little lower but in its place you put the carb, velocity stack, and air cleaner. I personally dont think it is lower when layed down. Just my opinion.

Now mind you
I'm NO pro but I have raced RC cars for many years and also raced tuff trucks and raced in alot off road race's.
So heres the deal

#1.you can take one set up and have Driver-A race the car and it's very fast.
Now take the same car and have driver-B run the car and he says this cars slow. Why cuz not all drivers are the same and some setups and changes help and hurt the car for that driver.

#2.By its self one positive change might not seem to help a car but add 2 or 3 or 5 changes that are positive for that driver and you see a big difference.

So heres my big theory on life as I know it as I'm looking in on the lay down VS upright motors battle>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BADDMANS big theory of the day::::If A lay down works for one driver. Add that too cleaner and cooler air going into the motor. Add that too ((maybe)) in some cars a lower center of gravity. All equals a fast better,handling more or less forgiving car for Driver A But not Driver B.

seeya and thanks for reading my theory........ :)

By the way Chance your car was on fire in the last race wow. keep up the good work. :thumbsup:
I can't wait till the Set up class your putting on. I have lots to learn...

Bob your WCM is a tank!!! my PRO1 is just not tuff enough for me to be driving every time I'd get in to a wreck with a randys WCM or one of the lightnings my car get TRASHED...Im getting a different car.
Who wants a used PRO1

[QUOTE=BADDMAN]Bob your WCM is a tank!!! my PRO1 is just not tuff enough for me to be driving every time I'd get in to a wreck with a randys WCM or one of the lightnings my car get TRASHED...Im getting a different car.
Who wants a used PRO1[/QUOTE



Jim, the key to the whole thing is not to wreck :thumbsup: If you stay out of trouble your Pro 1 will be just fine. All the cars will get tore up once in awhile. But getting another car would be a good idea for you just, for the parts side of it at the track. What kind of car are ya looking for?



Bryant

Im looking into a WCM and Lightning I'll end up with both Im sure. What hurt my PRO1 with the shock towers standing up and when i got into it with Zack My way flew about 7 feet in the air and came down on the front shock tower and bent the frame. I don't think ether the wcm or the lightning would bend as badd plus the trailing arms suck on the pro1 .
one good thing i liked on the pro1 is the front a-arms their pretty Tuff.

What you don't think my skill as a demo derby drivers paying off on the 1/4 scale car? ??haaa

You are doing just fine...It will help when you get a good setup underneath you. Are you looking for new or used?

Thanks Jim. The car was a dream to drive. I hope to see ya in the workshop. We are going to go through the stages of re-building a car from the ground up, including general setup stuff. Glad to hear your getting a new car whether it be a WCM or Lightning. I will have the new ROCKIT Motorsports Chassis done for next year. Lightning stuff will bolt right on!


Chance

Bob your WCM is a tank!!! my PRO1 is just not tuff enough for me to be driving every time I'd get in to a wreck with a randys WCM or one of the lightnings my car get TRASHED...Im getting a different car.
Who wants a used PRO1
Jim can you say fast tank ? Oh wait ! do they make one ??????? AH yea they do I have ONE [ WCM ] Brazed chassis & lay down motor ! Oh !!!I say it again & again I like my WCM , Good to see you out & about Jim . You always leave good post you just say like it is, No sugar coating ,,,thats what we need ,,thank you Bob :thumbsup:

Very nice steering rack on the Pro1 also. Nice car but not made for jumping :lol: . All will bend if put in the right place at the right time. Hit the wall with a lightning and bent the shock tower and broke a shock. But thats racing. I like the Pro1 car Its held up for me well.

Back to the topic please.

All this talk about cars flying 7 feet in the air, demo derby, and tanks makes me want to NEVER race at this track!!

Btw - What track is it that has all this again???

All this talk about cars flying 7 feet in the air, demo derby, and tanks makes me want to NEVER race at this track!!

Btw - What track is it that has all this again???
We were just having some fun , But the racing at our track does get exciting & we drivers do get a little excited ourselves ,plus we have 5 new racers that came over from 1/8 th dirt . The track is a great track, one of the best racing tracks in the nation . thank you Robert

We were just having some fun , But the racing at our track does get exciting & we drivers do get a little excited ourselves ,plus we have 5 new racers that came over from 1/8 th dirt . The track is a great track, one of the best racing tracks in the nation . thank you Robert


Ok, and the track is ?

All this talk about cars flying 7 feet in the air, demo derby, and tanks makes me want to NEVER race at this track!!

Btw - What track is it that has all this again???


Northwest R/C Speedway........

I have seen cars fly high in the air at Boulder City, awesome track. I am sure that cars have lifted off at every track in the nation. Yes, we have had a few spectacluar crashes from years past, but remember we are also racing 5.6-5.9 seconds a lap.......Things happen "REAL" fast. So Please come on out to the District race in 2008, hold your breath and hold on to your pants and see how you stack up? If you Dare?


P.S.
I like stand up motors.....Don't want to get off topic :thumbsup:

Northwest R/C Speedway......

Oh, Northwest R/C Speedway, very nice track! I hope to get out there someday.

We would LOVE to have you.................

Our track is very fast. It is unlike any other track I have seen. It is truly a joy to race on it. We have a lot of local guys that are getting pretty darn fast with both stand up and lay down motors! Different strokes for different folks. I was thinking about it however, I think the reason setups may change to a degree isnt so much that the center of gravity is lower, but weight is moved forward due to the jug. That is a good thing. Im used to my old school stand up and it works for me!

I hope we can get some of you guys to come out to the western district race.

the carb,stack and air cleaner i bet way just as much as the jug if you cant offset the flywheel in my oppion your not moving anything

the carb,stack and air cleaner i bet way just as much as the jug if you cant offset the flywheel in my oppion your not moving anything
There is more than a jug up there there's a muffler, coil & wire and plug , That should add up ,What ? Some said in one of the other posts that you had to raise the motor to lay it over ,been thinking about that and I do not raise the motor . I use the two rt side washers that come with the WCM gn car , they go on the rt side between the motor & motor plate and then Use the lay down motor plate that I make on the left side , Robert , Go Laydown Motor

This is a bit off topic, but moving the engine is what brought it to mind:

The only thing that is an issue with WCM, Pro1 and the others, is the screws on the bottom of the motor. I think if the manufactures could change one thing that would benifit everyone, would be to move the motor plate to the side, instead of on the bottom. Have the motor plate attach to the cluch and still be able to move the motor front to back about 1.5 to 2 inches would be enough.

All that beating and banging on the motor screws is not a good thing.

I agree Jim. That would definately be something to look into. Bob, not sure about the WCM, I havent measured the difference between layed down or stood up on one. I know that on a Lightning the center of the crankshaft is raised between .100 and .200. I dont know if yours is any higher or lower. I doubt it is higher like the Lightning, you get that muffler right on the ground!

in the end i dont worry about which way the motor is mounted becacuse thats not whats touching the track those 4 round black things are get those right and you have nothing to worry about

What is the angle of the motor. I have it a 20 degrees.


Thanks Ed

in the end i dont worry about which way the motor is mounted becacuse thats not whats touching the track those 4 round black things are get those right and you have nothing to worry about


Hit the nail on the head :thumbsup:

first25q. Ck P.M.

first25q. Ck P.M.

Check you pm

Ed

ok guys here goes, pulled the motor and plate out of my car and did a check. oh ya if you look at the pics of my car i can take the plate out, i dont have bolt hits because i use button heads for clearance. also i can pull the engine clutch and all without breaking it apart to get it out of the car. i did a set up with it standing up from the way i had everything set and leveled the center of the crank shaft was 2" 20/32 then i layed the engine down and reset it back to the same readings and got 2" 18/32 go back to the reason why the first two guys layed it over to get the breather up into fresh cool air. then by laying it down someone else hit on it, you move your front to rear weight forward and that changes your set-up. some cars will handle great because they need more forward weight and some wont because they need rear weight. if you scale your car the scales dont lie they will tell on the spot what your percentage's are. i dont no which is better i have not raced r/c in a long time, but if my car needed forward weight then laying it down might help? but getting fresh cool air is probably the biggest gain. just some fule to the fire lol.

Hi Sonny ,,, I have tried using different lenght's of belts After laying over my motor and with my setup the 290 or 288 worked the best 288 being the best good luck on the new car Robert

Im the one that suggested that an advantage could be moving the weight forward. I know that on Lightnings, the heaviest corner on the car is the right rear and that is due to the weight of the flywheel. I scaled a WCM while in vegas and by far the heaviest corner was the right front and that was with the motor being stood up. I believe the right front on that car was about a pound and a half heavier than the right rear. My only guess is that WCMs have more weight in the front of the chassis with all the suspension and steering stuff. And keep in mind, the only way that you can gain more front/rear or left side weight is to physically move the motor, lead, extend the rs wheels out more, or move any kind of weight in the car. Setup ( how much cross weight, or "wedge" is in the car) wont effect the rear or ls weight percentages. I dont know if that makes sense to anyone? Thus, I think you are right on using a little bit shorter belt Bob. :thumbsup: I know you were dealing with the car getting a bit loose off of the corner. Maybe a little more rear weight could help?

yes right on, as far as side mounting the engine im looking into it on my new cars. but i no the cracker's are like that does he use some kind of short mount on the right side or just the side plate. any pic's so i could see thanks.

Actually I went to a heavier rt front spring [22] - [25] and that was what helped ,OOPS! almost forgot had the left rear tailing arm off and when I was putting it back on I did not get the top heim joint bolt tightened up so you know the rest going in it was tight coming off it was loose ,,until the bolt fell out ,Well I cut alot of grass that day Robert ,Ps good job on getting the western district race Chance

hey bob what about changing the ansle where the front rod end is? for the trailing arm moving it up?

For the little bit of change in angle you get, it wouldnt make a bit of difference. The slots for the trailing arm brackets are mainly to fine tune belt tension. Thats all I use it for. I havent found it to make a bit of difference as far as handling. With big cars we can play with trailing arm angles a bit to gain rear steer to help with bite in and forward bite (off the corner) as well. Something to play with maybe but I didnt see any change. :)

Sonny i think the Qsac website has some pics of the Cracker.

ED

i have ran standup and laydown both. i prefer standup just looks better. as far as the cooler air deal i ran bodies with no windows cut out stock muffler with no tailpipe out and ran as fast as the fastest in sporstman at every track i went to so getting the heat out don't matter!!!! car setup along with proper tires is the key thing and then it helps if you can make consistant laps cause the fastest car don't always win!!!!!!