Looking to get input on how these two motors compare running on a flat carpet track. The stuff I've read has compared these on larger outdoor tracks and that's not the info I am looking for.

At one of our local tracks the fast 10.5 guys are running 67 laps. The fast 13.5 guys are running 65. With the little bit that I've played around with the 17.5 lipo combo it was about 1 1/2 - 2 laps off pace of the 10.5 4cell. Haven't tried running it against the 13.5 but it seems like it would be more comparable to the 13.5 4 cell.

Seems like the 21.5 lipo combo would be a tick slower than the 13.5 / 4cell.

Just looking for any input from people that have compared these motor battery combo's

Thanks

RC

The 17.5 motor is the same as a 27turn motor. The 13.5 is a faster dont know where they got that it was close to a 27turn motor because it isent. The 17.5 with a Lipo should be close to the 10.5 motors and the 21.5 with a lipo should be close to the 13.5

21.5 Lipo will run like a really well tuned 27 turn. In the right car, might go a lap faster than 27 turn track record. Will be slower than 4 Cell/13.5.

21.5 Lipo will run like a really well tuned 27 turn. In the right car, might go a lap faster than 27 turn track record. Will be slower than 4 Cell/13.5.

This is what we were thinking RoadSplat. And not very surprising really. Considering what the 13.5/4cell class is capable of.

I believe a little 17.5/Lipo testing is in order for our 13.5/4cell class.

17.5/Lipo testing is in order for our 13.5/4cell class

The 17.5 LIPO will run like a 10.5/4 cell. That is what is going to be our PREMIER class in '08 and what we've been testing and running the most. (These are almost identical on most tracks...we have found the 10.5/4 cell a little quicker so far on the carpet, but I think once the LIPO guys Get there..I think they will be very close there too.)

Should have waited until this evening to post! What I had posted earlier was based on some initial testing on our local track. A few cars made it to a carpet track today and it looks like 21.5/lipo is going to run 2 or 3 laps faster than stock.

21.5/lipo was considerably faster than stock at Stockton today. It looked like a lot of fun and I'll bring mine out for the rest of the season. The fastest 27 turn stock run at Stockton has been 69 5-flat, but those runs had some traffic and could have been 70 lap runs. The first run on the 21.5 lipo was 70 laps - when Bob had some testing time he did 72 laps with a clear track. I ran 17.5/4 cell at the track last week and could only scratch out a 68 5:02. We haven't tried running 13.5/4 cell on the track. Gary did 78 laps with 10.5/4 cell today. 17.5/lipo did 76 laps.

Should have waited until this evening to post! What I had posted earlier was based on some initial testing on our local track. A few cars made it to a carpet track today and it looks like 21.5/lipo is going to run 2 or 3 laps faster than stock.

so you are saying it is equal to 13.5/4 cell then right?

so you are saying it is equal to 13.5/4 cell then right?

Looks like it will be darn close. With the advantage going to the 4 cell cars at the moment. I think it will be like the 17.5/lipo cars.

21.5/lipo - 13.5/4 cell - the edge goes to 4 cell, but similar.

17.5/lipo - 10.5/4 cell - ditto

I need some help with a starting roll out for 21.5 lipo. Saturday we ran 13.5 4 cell on a low banked asphalt oval in Jax. FL, roll out for the fast guys was in the 4.2 to 4.3 range. Any suggestions on what to start at with 21.5 lipo.

BTW 10.5 4 cell ran 40 laps, 13.5 4 cell ran 37 laps

A good 4 cell 10.5 car ,still 2 laps faster than a good 17.5 lipo as of yesterday on our 175 flat carpet track. The lipo cars are close up front only a few hundrenths with the 10.5 still a tick better but a third to halfway into the run the 10.5 cars start pulling a tenth or so thru the rest of the run.The 17.5 cars are pulling alot of the voltage out of the pack at the third ,halfway point.
Running them together won't work but both classes are awesome,we are just trying to figure it all out .

NOTE: All of the LIPO based cars are running a "limited" battery. They have all been run with the 3200 LIPO from Orion...whereas there have been no real restrictions on the batteries in the 4 cell cars. They are open to ANY 4600 or lower capacity NiMh battery.

So, while YES the 4 cell cars have been faster...and yes some of the guys will want to run 4 cell "because" they have the advantage of being faster...if EVERYONE ran 10.5 4 cell - would you still find 2-3 laps different in the field?

...and while I am a strong advocate of the LIPO and keeping it under very tight control...I would like to see maybe at the next STOCKTON race...somebody go ahead and use one of the ORION Platinum 4800's or the Dura-Flite 4900's in a heat or two..and see how SPEEDS compare there. (NO - I don't want to see those batteries become legal)

Joe,i'm totally for lipo 100%.. We talked about the bigger mah pack to test,but the next oval race is the JPH 3 day race in December.
The orion 3200 pack is awesome for the lipo classes.Hopefully we can get enough to have two seperate classes.
We are just starting out and i'm glad ruben has steped up and getting lipo classes going.Hopefully it will carry over to outdoors next year with our local clubs.

A good 4 cell 10.5 car ,still 2 laps faster than a good 17.5 lipo as of yesterday on our 175 flat carpet track. ..................

Running them together won't work but both classes are awesome,we are just trying to figure it all out .

This is exactly what I was seeing which makes me think that maybe the 17.5 lipo would compare very well with the 13.5 4 cell. At out track the 13.5 is 2 laps slower than the 10.5.

No body here has the 21.5 yet but I think that if it were to be run against the 13.5 4cell, it would be at the bottom of the pack whereas the 17.5 is going to be at the upper end of the 13.5 class.

I hoping to try running the 17.5 lipo against the 13.5 this weekend, so I will see how it compares first hand. Just a little gunshy to drop the cash on the a 21.5 if it's going to always be running at the bottom of the pack


Probably the best overall solution is to just have a seperate lipo class and not try to integrate them with either the 10.5 or 13.5 class

This is exactly what I was seeing which makes me think that maybe the 17.5 lipo would compare very well with the 13.5 4 cell. At out track the 13.5 is 2 laps slower than the 10.5.

No body here has the 21.5 yet but I think that if it were to be run against the 13.5 4cell, it would be at the bottom of the pack whereas the 17.5 is going to be at the upper end of the 13.5 class.

I hoping to try running the 17.5 lipo against the 13.5 this weekend, so I will see how it compares first hand. Just a little gunshy to drop the cash on the a 21.5 if it's going to always be running at the bottom of the pack


Probably the best overall solution is to just have a seperate lipo class and not try to integrate them with either the 10.5 or 13.5 class


17.5 LIPO IS 2 LAPS FASTER THAN 13.5/4CELL ATLEAST!

** ON 165' CARPET TRACK ANYWAYS **

Yep i agree,lipo classes need to be seperate. We are all in test mode right now and with the lack of a large core group of racers out west we are trying to acomdate all racers with the new technolgy.
19t class is all but dead.
Our testing and observations are with past national champions and fast guy's.



It's not about what is faster,it's about new technolgy and advancements in rc racing and trying to keep new and old racers.

You sure see the cars that have tire\set-ups working better,being on basically same motor\battery combo with the lipo classes.

A good 4 cell 10.5 car ,still 2 laps faster than a good 17.5 lipo as of yesterday on our 175 flat carpet track. The lipo cars are close up front only a few hundrenths with the 10.5 still a tick better but a third to halfway into the run the 10.5 cars start pulling a tenth or so thru the rest of the run.The 17.5 cars are pulling alot of the voltage out of the pack at the third ,halfway point.
Running them together won't work but both classes are awesome,we are just trying to figure it all out .

KOZ, what is the rollout for 4-cell/10.5 and lipo/17.5? Also what is weight difference? Our lipo/17.5 is just as fast if not faster. I have seen (1) 3.9 lap in 4-cell/10.5 @ RCSM 2weeks ago I ran (5) 3.9's with lipo/17.5 it's all about weight though we haven't added any weight to our lipo cars.


Raymond

I'm not sure the rollout for stockton, but Ruben has set the weight at 40 oz. (I was going to do the same for the tour, but decided to keep our weight at 38 oz. This may help equalize the 4 cell vs. Lipo deal a little anyway)

Raymond,10.5 4 cell 3.02 3.10 17.5 lipo 3.18 3.28
kenny was saying the same thing about outdoors,get them on carpet,and it's different.
We all have to weigh 40oz.

Look at the whole 5 minute run,they are close,but the 17.5's are pulling the volts out alot more on the current draw on a 5 minute run,vs how much the 10.5 4 cell pulls out.

we had 5 lipo 17.5 cars and 5 4 cell 10.5 cars in the spec BL class

We don't have the luxury of running every weekend for testing purposes,i know i can get the gap a little closer.

I would bet that the difference is the weight. If you left the weight out of the 17.5's, then I think the times would be closer. That is how it was tested so the 17.5 would be equal to 10.5. If you split the class, then it won't matter.

Koz, Josh said we are going to the JPH race. See you there!

Yeah we didn't add any weight to the lipo cars. I would say our lipo cars were around 37-38oz and 4-cell cars around 40ish. But you can't ask for much closer racing. Now setup is a bit different than 4-cell setup due to weight stiffen up RF spring to help transfer weight back to LR to drive off the corner.
RCSM rollout for 4-cell/10.5 is 3.05
rollout for lipo/17.5 is 3.15-3.20

Raymond

Adding weight is for offroad not oval I try to keep my car in contact with the ground so no need for more weight to keep it balanced!

Leave the weight out and they are even atleast that is what I have seen!

Now..to reverse this thought...Maybe for the 21.5/LIPO deal we need to ADD weight to make them closer to 4 cell STOCK.hmmmmmm

Haven't tried it - (never been all that big of a believer in going all THAT light weight...) but I'm use to MOMENTUM tracks ie: velodromes. (Where most of the cars are in excess of 44 oz.)

I ran about 5 laps of practice with the car at 38.5 oz - and the car felt much quicker. Did a few 3.8 sec laps on a green track and had to pull it off to get ready for the heats. I added. 1.5 oz. before the heats and I was able to do more 3.8s but it would have been a little faster without the weight. It would be interesting to see the difference using a Novak Sentry. I think the 10.5 combo has a little bit more rip coming out of the corners (they can draw 40 amps+ while I don't think the 17.5 will ever pull that current.

The weight deal,doesn't make that big of difference.Adding weight,reducing weight,isn't really the solution. For now it;s just club racing and giving guy's new technogly options to race. We all have to weigh 40oz. except for 12th scale

To go back on the topic of this thread,yeah 13.5 4 cell would be closer to run with the 17.5 lipo,we have what we have and it's so cool not working on motors,and lipo not having to babysit packs,deadshorting etc..
I ran three classes on a short program and had time to work on chassis,tire,and answer questions..
I know i can get a half lap more on the 17.5 lipo deal,but thats about it maybe these cars need exotics to pick up a little mid to end of the run.

To go back on the topic of this thread,yeah 13.5 4 cell would be closer to run with the 17.5 lipo,we have what we have and it's so cool not working on motors,and lipo not having to babysit packs,deadshorting etc..
I ran three classes on a short program and had time to work on chassis,tire,and answer questions..
I know i can get a half lap more on the 17.5 lipo deal,but thats about it maybe these cars need exotics to pick up a little mid to end of the run.

nothing much to say but this statement is WRONG!

There is one thing that I don't believe has been mentioned yet and it is very relevant to the question asked at the start of this thread.

In our 13.5/4cell class here in Michigan and for that matter throughout the BRL series, we don't have the luxury of a wing like the 10.5 guys do.
Therefore, it may make the 17.5/LiPo a bit closer to our 13.5/4cell drivers. I'm certain that if the 10.5/4cell drivers took thier wings off they would slow down.;)

At our last race the fast 10.5/4cell guys only ran 2 more laps than the fast 13.5/4cell guys. In case you are wondering, they are the same guys. So we can throw out some large variables here. That being driver, chassis, batteries ect.

At Easley, Sc the 17.5/lipo runs about the same as the 13.5/4 cell. Check their results. In both classes the body is cut out in back and a wing is used (cap tire track).
http://www.carolinarc.com/

brain0525- How is it wrong? please explain yourself. :)

yeah our testing and comparison's have been done with national champions,guys that make a mains at snowbirds,nats, etc...and generally fast guy's. this isn't just one car ,one manafacture,driver,different cars,drivers,etc...not a debate just what we have seen so far.
Seems like every 3-4 wind difference is like 2-2 1\2 laps on a five minute run

........yeah 13.5 4 cell would be closer to run with the 17.5 lipo,we have what we have and it's so cool not working on motors,and lipo not having to babysit packs,deadshorting etc..
............

KOZ, what kind of track have you seen these results from? Flat carpet Oval or outdoor tracks?

Thanks for all the input thus far. Really appreciate it. I'm pretty sure our track will adopt a lipo / motor combo. Just not sure which one. I think the overall feeling is that we want to go with one that can integrate the best with the 13.5 class until more people jump in and then just have a seperate lipo class.

RC

KOZ, what kind of track have you seen these results from? Flat carpet Oval or outdoor tracks?

Thanks for all the input thus far. Really appreciate it. I'm pretty sure our track will adopt a lipo / motor combo. Just not sure which one. I think the overall feeling is that we want to go with one that can integrate the best with the 13.5 class until more people jump in and then just have a seperate lipo class.

RC

I am not Koz but our outdoor 8deg banking asphalt track (4sec. laps). track record for 4-cell/10.5 is 58 4:02 by Jeff Helms (2006 Roar Mod National winner) we have been running lipo/17.5 for 2 months now a track record is 57 4:00 by Jim Hock. so you tell me that 13.5 will be close to 17.5 lipo? Nope the 17.5/lipo will be just tick slower than 4-cell/10.5 once they get the right setup. as long they don't have to add 3-4oz to match 4-cell racing. Leave weight @ 38oz and these 2 classes can be ran together. JMO.

Raymond McCoy

something I saw in the rollout was the 10.5 and the 17.5 margin didn't look as big as what I've been seeing everywhere else.

Part of the issue/problem here is going to be the fact that the Carpet track in Stockton only gets a handful of Oval races every year...and the guys running 10.5/4 cell already have a VERY VERY Good setup, so the 17.5's are a little behind the 8 ball.

It's hard going in knowing your are slower..and trying to get upto speed....although the guys doing it up there are VERY GOOD drivers..and I value there comments on this issue 100%.

Guys like Gary Hamilton have been running both, shaking them down...and getting good setup info to compare. I know he loves the 17.5/LIPO deal, but he also ran the 10.5/4 cell at Stockton (and I believe he's the one who WON last week with it...) So if he ran faster w/ the 10.5, I'm going to assume he felt it had THE advantage...(or else he WOULD have been running the LIPO/17.5)

Kenny Collins (KC Racing) is ALWAYS fast on the Carpet out here...and I think he is ONLY running the 10.5/4 cell... and his Pro3's are FFFFFASSSSTTTT

2007 ROAR paved oval nat's / Carolina RC
4300 brushless- Top Qualifier is Whit Wilson 43/4:02.621
13.5 brushless- Top Qualifier is Henry Green 41/4:05.944

17.5/lipo/Bl - Top Qualifier is Donnie Burnett 41/4:04
This race ran October 27th using ROAR weight rules

It looks to me like it depends on where you are running to make a comparison.
On a short oavls using foams I would believe that the speeds could be very close due very fast lap times for all three class nearing the max speed for the track.

On a long track Like Carolina RC the 13.5/ 4 cell and 17.5/lipo are close using caps.

I'm actually suprised more don't see 13.5 and 10.5 even closer than what they are...

One of the reasons I tried to keep 13.5 racing out of OUR racing was the few races it was run....the TQ in 13.5 would have been in the top 5 in the 10.5 class. So based on that YES 17.5 LIPO and 13.5 should be close...all 3 of those classes are ReALLY close. (When you look at 2 laps difference over a 5 minute race...how much difference are you talking TIME wise?)

In the case of the 4 minute NAT's race you had average lap time of 5.64 to 5.997. Now I don't know any of the racers listed from that race, but how do THEY compare to each other?

You want a really funny one...at the race where we played with the 21.5 LIPO for the first time...ON CAPS, it darn near out qualified the 10.5/4 cell TQ that day...and the guy driving it...had a really hard time getting HIS 10.5 car STUCK (but the 21.5/LIPO car was DIALED!!) I believe the 21.5 did a 58 lapper that day...where the 10.5 ran 59...I believe though that the Track Record in 10.5 is 61 (This is 5 minute racing)

I agree that lipo/17.5 might be slower but at most 1 lap. It takes alot more to setup a lipo car to work as well as a 4-cell/10.5 car.
Joe our rollout for 4-cell/10.5 is 3.05
rollout for lipo/17.5 is 3.16 not all that far off. it;s all in the weight I think is why our cars are so close. Which makes racing fun!!!! 2 weeks ago it took a 56 4:00 to get into the "A" TQ was 57 4.02 and only one of those cars were 4-cell/10.5. but 3-4oz ligher and right setup cars are very close.
With Joe's rules (SWT) 38oz I would say this will keep the 2 on the same page.

Raymond

175 ft. Flat carpet track is what we have been on,right now medium bite.

outdoors and indoors are two different aspects.whatever the case it's not a debate every track and conditions are different.

I will bet at our 3 day race next month in this one class where you can run 10.5 4 cell,or 17.5 lipo,most will be 10.5 cars,due to the past observations.I'm all for lipo,brushless,4 cell etc...i'll be running 4 cell if they are not seperated.

We have to weigh 40 oz,all classes except 12th scale