Hey guys i was wondering if anyone had any performance issues with the wire 16 guage on there esc's.. The new 4 cell GTB comes with 16 guage wire.. I like it cause it doesnt bind the pod up like the thicker wire does.. I had actually tried it a few times last year on my sphere before the new style gtb came out.. I did not notice any difference.. However i have heard a few people talking about the issue lately.. some say goimg to thicker guage makes the car faster... In just curious if anyone else has had any expirience with this.. thanks

At 35A the voltage drop across 18" of 16AWG wire is .214V. The voltage drop across 12AWG is .084V. So the difference is is .13V, basically like taking a 5.00V pack and making it a 4.87V pack.

Burbs,
I would atleast put 14awg on but would recommend 12. On the outdoor track this summer I switched from 16 to 14 and then to 12 and it helped out. It seemed to make more of a difference lap time wise at the end of the race vs. the beginning. Its not a huge difference but every bit helps out. See ya this weekend!

At 35A the voltage drop across 18" of 16AWG wire is .214V. The voltage drop across 12AWG is .084V. So the difference is is .13V, basically like taking a 5.00V pack and making it a 4.87V pack.

What it is it across 4" of wire? I have 14 on now, but had 12 on an older GTB and I couldn't tell the difference.

What it is it across 4" of wire? I have 14 on now, but had 12 on an older GTB and I couldn't tell the difference.

I'd be impressed if you managed to have 4" of wire in the circuit. That would mean you have 1" wires to the battery and motor. I chose 18" of wire figuring on 5" wires to the motor (only two carry current at a given instant) and 4" wires to the battery. I've seen people have less and I've seen people have a lot more.

The difference between 14 and 12 is of course much smaller, only about .05V, then 16 and 12. Personally I could not tell the difference either in going from 14 to 12, but it is very tough to quantify with changing track conditions etc. On most tracks i wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 4.97 pack and a 5.02 pack either, it is the same difference.

Here's a calculator.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm

Heat,bigger wire ecs's and motors run slightly cooler.which can help at the end of a run.

If nothing else run 12g from the battery to the ESC if pod binding is a problem.

I'd be impressed if you managed to have 4" of wire in the circuit. That would mean you have 1" wires to the battery and motor. I chose 18" of wire figuring on 5" wires to the motor (only two carry current at a given instant) and 4" wires to the battery. I've seen people have less and I've seen people have a lot more.


My mistake. I didn't realize how you came by the 18" figure. I was thinking for each wire in the system, not as a whole.

My mistake. I didn't realize how you came by the 18" figure. I was thinking for each wire in the system, not as a whole.

No problem. I gotcha. :thumbsup:

There are a few cars where you could actually get them very very short. The HD Adrenaline for example.

I did run 12 guage from battery to esc.. I ran the 16 from esc to motor.. guess i have to go buy some wire..

I did run 12 guage from battery to esc.. I ran the 16 from esc to motor.. guess i have to go buy some wire..

Several guys that I see at the track, have done that, and they go
very very well... Unless you think that is where you are getting beat,
I don't know that I'd put it on the "must do" list..

One thing that some just getting in to this business of changing esc wires,
should keep in mind, is also the risk you take in doing it.
In my opinion, if you don't have full confidence in your soldering,
you may not want to try it. This is no place to put false praise in
your own ability. You need to make this removal and replacement
as absolutely as quickly as you can... without having a cold joint..
you shouldn't lean on those tabs like some do on a battery tab, for example...
When you see guys hold that iron on the bat wire for an eternity,
that ain't gonna cut it on an esc..
Better to have someone do it, if you feel the least bit queezy,
than be a hero and fry your 180 dollar speedo..... :thumbsup:
Your mileage may vary...

Crass Commercial:

General Silicones 12Ga wire for Brushless motors in nice colors:

http://s92437987.onlinehome.us/ebaypics/Misc/wire2.jpg

$6.00 shipped for 3 10 inch pieces in colors approximating the Novak scheme. Probably enough for two motors in pan cars. Other lengths avilable on request.

EDIT: $6.00 for the three 10 inch lengths - I had not factored in the latest postal rate increase.

Ok,, I'm not an expert or about to call my Uncle Know-It-All who works for NASA. But here is my question.

Taking in account for Skin-Theory and the ESC operates at around 30mHZ and the wire is of oxygen-free high strand count (increases surface area) wouldn't the actual resistance that you posted be less? :confused:

I mean the quoted data was based on passing the UL rating for 16ga stranded wire with 12~ 24 conductor strands (IE Vinyl Coated Lamp Cord). The 16ga wire I use is of high-quality oxygen free 180+ strands. It is the same specs as W S Deans 12ga Ultra Wire, but in 16ga. Rumor is that Deans will be supplying Ultra wire in smaller guages.

So for 40" of 16ga wire my multi meter measured .003 Ohms which is on par with 10ga wire used in home or automotive. If you go by the 18" standard (Thanks PMSIMKINS) resitance would be .00135 or for 35amp load .05V drop. Yes using Deans' Ultra 12ga wire would yield me a .02V drop, but like you said its hard to tell the difference in that drop. After using my EagleTree recorder, my 13.5 setup really only draws about 12amps constant with surges to 20amps and spikes (walls) at 50amps so the effects of me using 16ga wire is felt less than if I was running a bigger motor.

BTW, I am considering switching my battery wires to 12ga on my GTB 4-CELL DSM. It would be a compromise between punch and having pod flex in my CRC 3.2.

LOL at uncle know-it-all trailranger. did you stay at a holiday inn last night!?

I did an experiment a few weeks ago...the only change I made was going from stock wires on my GTB to 12 awg. I went almost 3 seconds faster (nearly a lap)
the funny thing is for the main I didn't change ANYTHING and went another lap faster, LOL, guess the track was just coming in because it was early in the year.

If I ever clean off my desk I'll post a example of 1950's engineering for transmission wires. I bought some scrap wire just to look at....yes really.

You should see some of the stuff I get to see.

When we go into and old elevator installation from that era it is amazing what they had to work with. Cloth wrapped wires and they were HUGE and not flexible at all. The bundles of smaller guages of wire would actually be painted or shellaced to hold them inplace and prevent corrosion.

Taking in account for Skin-Theory and the ESC operates at around 30mHZ and the wire is of oxygen-free high strand count (increases surface area) wouldn't the actual resistance that you posted be less? :confused:


No, the skin effect (if it is applicable here which I'm fairly sure it is not) only makes the resistance worse. Also, to mitigate it each individual strand would have to be insulated. All the stranding does is allow the wire to be more flexible.

The point about wire quality is valid although I'm not confident the resistance is lowered by as much as you indicate.

Personally if there is an easy way to gain voltage that costs $5-10 I'll take it.

Yes i know as the freq increases the resistance does too. But what has been found that that strand count reduces the effect and companies such as MonsterCable are making hollow braided cables to this reason. I guess through researh they also discoved that treble travels slower over normal wires than bass.

Also for other racers, changing the ESC freq to lower increase PUNCH because of the Skin Effect, but reduces the smoothness in throttle controll.

Here is a good website I found for you. It'll help you have a better (correct) understanding of the topic.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Scots_Guide/audio/skineffect/page1.html

This topic is uninteresting to me. I'll run 12 AWG and you run 16 if you like. :p

Also for other racers, changing the ESC freq to lower increase PUNCH because of the Skin Effect, but reduces the smoothness in throttle controll.

Juat as a FYI this statement is also wrong. The reason lower frequency creates the feel of more punch is that the speed control responds more agressively to a smaller movement of the trigger. It has nothing to do with skin effect.

Whoa you guys are too technical for me.

Here is a good website I found for you. It'll help you have a better (correct) understanding of the topic.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Scots_Guide/audio/skineffect/page1.html


Thanks for the link, Pat..
I found it pretty interesting.
Not the actual material or formulae presented,
but the fact that there are humans that actually understand
this stuff!!!
(a group of which I am NOT a part of, I might add) :drunk:

I still have a cheat sheet for the rollout formula.... :rolleyes:

Thats how Pat wins all his races...he confuses you with equations on the drivers stand...
I have flashbacks to Dif EQ and by the time I know it I'm a lap down :)

Thats how Pat wins all his races...he confuses you with equations on the drivers stand...
I have flashbacks to Dif EQ and by the time I know it I'm a lap down :)

What I'm working on now is new a new paint scheme that bends light or something so that the other drivers can't see me, that way they can't hit me or block me. I didn't have it perfected in Detroit ;)

What I'm working on now is new a new paint scheme that bends light or something so that the other drivers can't see me, that way they can't hit me or block me. I didn't have it perfected in Detroit ;)
it could be the color you had at det. distracted the other drivers and they lost where there cars were and ran you over??????

it could be the color you had at det. distracted the other drivers and they lost where there cars were and ran you over??????

Hey I put at least 15 minutes into painting that body, it looked good! :woohoo:

Tommygun your just fast anyway!! I bought a GTB and installed 12guage wire before I even installed it. Can't tell you if there was a difference.

So whats better silver or copper 12 guage or could you tell the diffrence?

Jake

No one has responded but i am guessing the silver no..

Jake

Silver is more conductive, but the difference is small for our purposes.

12 awg stranded wire, regardless of number of strands should have the same resistance. wire gauge is determined by cross section of copper area.

also, it is very easy to be confused trying to measure anything less than 1 ohm using a multimeter, they will give you misleading information.

I chose 18" of wire figuring on 5" wires to the motor (only two carry current at a given instant) and 4" wires to the battery.

Does that mean one of the motor wires could be smaller, say 16 awg? If so, which one?

No, they are all on the same amount just not all at the same time. As the motor rotates and the coils turn on and off the current carrying wires change.

Where have you found really flexible 12ga wire to keep from getting pod binding due to the wire thickness?
deans wet noodle? I also saw possibly another type of black wire that was real flexible. but did not know who makes it. seems like it had thin insulation also to help flex.
Thanks

testing resistance of wire is only a check of continuity for readings less than 5 ohms. the only way to positively tell the difference is to test a piece of wire with a load, be it 12 amps, or 35 amps... voltage drop is the only true performance test. this is because motor power is relative to voltage and amperage. anyway, ohms law says if there is less voltage drop in one wire compared to the other it must by default have less resistance and will carry more amperage.

Where have you found really flexible 12ga wire to keep from getting pod binding due to the wire thickness?
deans wet noodle? I also saw possibly another type of black wire that was real flexible. but did not know who makes it. seems like it had thin insulation also to help flex.
Thanks
The General Silicones stuff I have to sell (page 1 of this thread) is pretty flexible, though not the same as Deans Wet Noodle.

I am using TA mans wire its great plenty flexable.

Jake

i'm mounting the ESC on the pod above the motor and using 6ga wire to the motor and battery! J/K :thumbsup:

i'm mounting the ESC on the pod above the motor and using 6ga wire to the motor and battery! J/K :thumbsup:

Hey Jesse, I've got some 4ga extra flex cable in the garage if you want me to cut you a piece.

I've also got a 100ft. roll of red flexable 10ga wire (423 strand count) if anybody wants to try it out. I'm still running the 16ga on mine, so I don't know if it will even fit. Must be why I'm still 3 laps off. PM me.

Noticed this interesting thread - nobody mentioned the old slot racers trick of doubling (or tripling) smaller wire to get the flexibility you want and still keep the resistance down. The resistance of two 16 ga. wires is approximately the same as one of 12 ga.

Noticed this interesting thread - nobody mentioned the old slot racers trick of doubling (or tripling) smaller wire to get the flexibility you want and still keep the resistance down. The resistance of two 16 ga. wires is approximately the same as one of 12 ga.
Actually 16 doubled would be 13Ga. The resistance is cut in half and copper cross section doubled for every three number decrease on the AWG scale.

What the heck is wrong with you guys....

What the heck is wrong with you guys....

I agree Justin, WTH...................... WOW too much for me to be worried about...........

If I ever clean off my desk I'll post a example of 1950's engineering for transmission wires. I bought some scrap wire just to look at....yes really.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2028/2164699476_5843029115.jpg

This picuture may be hard to see: This is not a single solide piece of coppper pipe.

The piece of wire is bigger than a "D" cell battery and is composed of 10 strands that interlock to form a hollow braded wire. The reason for hollow is the skin effect and to help heat dissapation under load. When the wire epxands or contracts the sprial wrapped braids will slip between each other in the interlocking groves. This wire weighs about 2.5Kg per Meter

i personally would worry more about car setup over wire any day.

i personally would worry more about car setup over wire any day.

I don't think anyone is saying that changing the wires will
guarantee you a spot in the a-main at the snowbirds. :rolleyes:

But for a little work, and a couple of bucks,
you have something that is unquestionably better.
And it's over with. You don't have to deal with it again.

You can play around with setup for a month, and not know
if you have something 'good' or not... :(

I think we all agree that setup is perhaps the single most important thing.
However, if people keep saying
"don't worry about this, don't worry about that... worry about setup"
for every option there is on an r/c car,
then all of that lack of attention to detail won't help your great setup
all that much either...

I don't think anyone is saying that changing the wires will
guarantee you a spot in the a-main at the snowbirds. :rolleyes:

But for a little work, and a couple of bucks,
you have something that is unquestionably better.
And it's over with. You don't have to deal with it again.

You can play around with setup for a month, and not know
if you have something 'good' or not... :(

I think we all agree that setup is perhaps the single most important thing.
However, if people keep saying
"don't worry about this, don't worry about that... worry about setup"
for every option there is on an r/c car,
then all of that lack of attention to detail won't help your great setup
all that much either...


You should have been worrying about setup not posting that Dan! ;)

As for your post......BINGO!

Saying "worry about setup" is like the Hobbytalk version of political correctness.

I guess all I can say to Dans post is ditto...... I am a firm believer in when there is something you can do to gain even the smallest bit YOU DO IT because there is always someone that already has done it...over time every little bit adds up to more speed I do think chassis is the biggest thing but why settle for a great handling car when with a little work and some minimal coin you can get more from that great handling car.....Think about it some worry about even an ounce of weight and spend hours getting it perfect, we spend good money on the best bearings for less rolling resistance put all that time into building that perfect diff, polish those kingpins to get them smooooth so why not change out that small wire for the bigger wire to reduce the voltage loss as minimal as it is......

I see where Dan is coming from..At the track we race at there are guys with there chassis dialed, really good batteries 12 awg wire ,pockets full of money and are great wheels.....So if you can gain a little then you need to do it! Chassis, Chassis, Chassis New tires each Round, Killer packs, Great drivers hmm I think I will shorten the wires to the motor!