I see the 17.5 was released and there has not been much talk about it, or so it seems. What does anyone think about this "spec" motor. Add spec tires, body, and an Orion 3200 (TC racing).........just a thought

I know the 17.5 is going to be great for oval racing. I haven't heard of anyone running it in a TC. My 13.5 TC is pretty fast for being a "stock" motor. A 17.5 would be a great entry level for someone starting racing. The trick is convincing the new guys to slow down a little bit to help fundamental growth....that's another thread topic though.

Ben

I think the 17.5 should be the motor of policy in a mixed brushed / brushless class. It is evident the 13.5 is faster than a CO-27...Till a track makes it policy though, ... you can't blame those running the 13.5

Problem is, the 17.5 is slower than a good CO27. Last Tues., it was slower than a good Core stock.

The 17.5 is an AWESOME motor...

Been playing with it for several months with both lipo 3200's and 4 cell in the oval cars.

I think it would make a great touring spec type motor...

Problem is, the 17.5 is slower than a good CO27. Last Tues., it was slower than a good Core stock.

Yeah, I think 17.5 is too high of wind to match up. I don't think a 13.5 is much faster then a top notch C027. I don't/can't build a brushed motor to top specs. What has people sore is that any idiot (like me :hat: ) can put a 13.5 in and be cream of the crop on motor. A 17.5, I believe, would put the motor tuner and deep pockets back at an advantage. Which I guess is racing in most aspecs.

The worst and most logical still is to keep them separated.

I think we should outlaw brushed motors all together and run spec brushless/lipo classes. :woohoo:

Ben

Yeah, I'm not too keen on spending an afternoon tuning four Cobalt stocks to find the best two for next weekend. Running the 13.5 against brushed isn't fair. Especially after about three minutes. Not so much in TC but in 1/12, it's very noticable. For TC it's nice 'cause it's like having the best motor you ever tuned every time you put your car on the track.

Problem is, the 17.5 is slower than a good CO27. Last Tues., it was slower than a good Core stock.

How much slower? A couple of tenths? Or was it considerable

'Bout .5 per lap.

jerusalem, was the driver w the 17.5 new to brushless? where were they geared?
I hear that the 17.5 is to be geared very high.

'Bout .5 per lap.

was this on a oval, or road course

For TC it's nice 'cause it's like having the best motor you ever tuned every time you put your car on the track.

Yeah, every round, week after week! Why are people stuck on brushed motors? If everyone said "we're only gonna run brushless", ROAR would have to change the policy.

Ben

jerusalem, was the driver w the 17.5 new to brushless? where were they geared?
I hear that the 17.5 is to be geared very high.
This was 1/12 road course with two national level A-main wheels. One running a Core stock to get ready for Cleveland and the other running the 17.5. So it was a side-by-side comparison for 3 packs. The fella running the 17.5 is not new to BL so appropriate gear was applied. If he ran an absolutely perfect lap, he could keep it close. Improbable for 8min

well I think I talked to the person with the 17.5 in 1/12 onroad. it seems very similar. he would give the edge to the brush co27. But for the most part the 17.5 is alot closer to the brushed co27 than the 13.5. he was using a 13 mm rotar geared at 2.74. Motor comes off at 111 degrees and speedo was 94 degrees.. he just picked up a 78 tooth robinson. before he was using a Kimbrough 88 with 43 tooth pinion.

111 deg? you need lots more gear!

[QUOTE=JimmyJon] But for the most part the 17.5 is alot closer to the brushed co27 than the 13.5. No doubt in my mind. The 13.5 is too fast for stock. Could dumb it down and put the bonded rotor and drop a couple teeth. But the 17.5 is closer. Maybe start roll-out around 3?:freak:

So now we're gonna have to have cars designed to handle the rollout. The 13.5 in my Losi Jrxs type R, I had to buy a spur adapter kit and pinions up to 44 to get close. I still haven't got down to where I need to be on the final drive.

Ben

I still think a possible solution to the "make a brushless run like stock" problem is to build a shorter motor. This would decrease the torque, and allow them to raise the RPMs back up a bit so that torque and speed are similar to a brushed stock. But there's probably no way to make one run exactly like a stock because the efficiency is so much higher. You'll always use a lot less battery so the end of the race will always be faster with brushless. (I suppose we could add big resistors outside the motor to eat up battery :lol: ) For some reason, this seems to show up much more in 4-cell classes. From what I've seen in touring cars, the 13.5 and brushed stock are very close on most tracks.

OOOHHHH whats another motor to buy its only $80 bucks.....Why do we (brushless drivers) have to worry about if we are comparable to brushed...If you dont want to run against the 13.5 w/a 27t then buy a 13.5 or just keep'm seperated......This is gonna turn into the 5cell vs.6ell debate or the lipo vs 4200 debate isnt this what the manufacturers want to keep feeding us endless options so we can only get three drivers in a class or get are LHS to stock it only to have it change in 3mnths :freak: ..I am a beginner in on road and slowing down would probably due me some good but with the new technology in todays speed controls its not hard to slow these cars down....does this get under anyone elses skin.....my 2CENTS

You've been hangin' with those boys from Summit haven't you? :woohoo: Let me tell you that those guys are no good and nothing but bad influences.

Ben

speakin from a 'back in the day' perspective; before the re-buildable stock motors were introduced stock racing was a much more competitive class because the tuning options were way more limited with fixed tab motors. you could tune using brushes and springs, that was it.It kept the cost of racing stock classes low.then the stock motor comm lathe was invented as a way to cheat. After that was accepted as the norm, the rebuildables came into the picture under the rouse of ease of maintenance.This was probally the absolute worst thing to ever happen to stock class racing. The whole idea of stock racing is to even out the ponies so it would break things down to driving and chassis set-up. So heres the question ; is the 17.5 consistant with the torque and top end of an UNTWEAKED stock motor? Not a tweaked out motor with a cut comm and perfectly alligned hoods to get an extra degree or degree and a half of timing, but an as it comes out of the package 30.00 stock motor.Because its obvious that the 13.5 is much faster than an out of the package stock motor.

420....Isnt that kind of what brushless is doing for us now??? Isnt B/L a steroid version of a sealed can....Brushed motors are they history? Probably not but how much longer will they be around? NiMh are going to die off w/lipo around....But this is not the intention of this thread....So I ask this what are we to do have a 17.5 beginner stock class, 13.5 class,10.5 class and then open mod? How about a 4/5cell 17.5 beginner class,6cell 13.5 class,lipo 13.5 class and then open mod :freak: wont we have to eliminate say 13.5 to go 17.5....and what about the 21.5 soon to be released :drunk: from battery wars to motor wars :woohoo: :woohoo: :wave:

You've been hangin' with those boys from Summit haven't you? :woohoo: Let me tell you that those guys are no good and nothing but bad influences.

Ben



......HHHHMMMM....Good point...... :rolleyes:

nah just let the brushed stuff be for novice and RTR stuff, 17.5 for stock, and then open mod. that way we can keep the 6 cell standard until 7.4 lipo becomes the standard and we wont have to fool witth this whole 5 cell stuff.Every one is talking about slowing stuff down so why not just go with the 17.5 for stock?

17.5 for stock sounds good but do you really want to run 13.5 against 10.5 or are you just saying let the whole 13.5 thing go.....

personally I would use the 13.5 in some sort of spec class for people that want to go faster than stock class, but not go full blown open mod. Like maybe a ' super stock class' or something along that line to take the place of the current 19t brushed class.But really there are enough small backroom style tight carpet tracks out there where a 13.5 or a 10.5 is borderline more motor than what you really need. For example last week I ran a trophy race where the difference between stock TQ and open mod TQ was only 2 seconds difference with the same amount of total laps. so running big motor really didnt do you much good at all, and the TQ in mod class was running a 6.5 while there were guys running 3.5's. It was very obvious that the guys running the faster motors were spending the whole race ' fighting the trigger' to keep from pushing deep in the corners.

If I could afford the tires, I'd run mod every week. That's why stock(13.5) and 19t(10.5) get so much play here. But there is a good point out there.....how many more classes does a local track need? I'd get bored racing the other two fellas running 10.5, lipo, sedan, rubber, odorless trac. compound, Alfa body week in, week out....Almost forgot. Speedpassion is releasing a 15.5. :rolleyes:

Thats my point exactly. We could keep subdividing or we can set a standard and run it. i think that li-po's and Nimh should run together. Pick your power source and live with it. Ni-mh ARE on their way out, so why make seperate classes to encourage the continued use of them. I am still running them, but you had better beleive that when its time to re-up in the battery department they will be given to my kid for practice packs, and they will be replaced with li-po's.regardless on the motor end of things its the same way, it's obvious that brushed is on its way out , so why keep subdividing classes to accomodate the few that wish to live in the past when the majority of the racing community are ready to move toward the future.The only real option I can see to end this whole subdivision within classes is a straight-up run what you brung approach. you either run stock, or mod... no other subdivisions within classes. :thumbsup:

The issue is the power disparity. There is no real "stock equivalent" BL motor. All it takes is one "brushed" guy at the track to point and say, "That's not fair", and the class will get split. And ya know what?......He's right. It's not exactly cheap, initially, to get set up with a BL system so you can't make someone get it. Locally, the majority are running lipo, so that's a non-issue around here.

Your right on the not fair tip jerusalem, but what are you going to do we are literally in the middle of a technology melt down.That means its up to the racers to sort this out, so we dont end up with 10 classes for 20 racers.some one some where has to bite the bullet so we can reel this whole thing back into a reasonable number of classes, so who should it be , the guys running new tech. or the guys running old tech... I saw this whole thing happen when rebuildable stock motors came onto the scene, so to me this is just history repeating itself. In the end the guys running the new tech. (rebuildables) won the arguement. It was resolved with a simple " if you choose to keep running the older version thats your choice".. on the cost Traxxas makes a nice CHEAP brushless system that runs sensored or sensorless motors and brushed motors. its 169.00 and comes with a 3500Kv sensorless motor.I run one in my dirt car, its good stuff! As for the brushless equivalent, your right there is no true brushless equall to a brushed stock motor, because brushless is just WAY more efficient. so why not take the closest thing , which is the 17.5, and make it the standard for stock class racing. and for those who choose to keep running brushed stuff, your right we cant make them go brushless, but we can say "if you wish to keep using it, that's your choice"

I would go out and buy the 17.5 right now if ten other guys were runnin it...But they(manufacturers) do this on purpose and call it variety...Whats the deal its seems to me that its always been 27t stock and 19t in the brushed market why make this 17.5 motor...Whats wrong with the 13.5 seems to me we are still trying to cater to the dying 27t market...I say no to run what you brung unless were just saying that to include the 27t in the race w/the 13.5...4200 vs Lipo I am cool w/that but its time will come and will be discussing which size lipo should be ran in stock....I guess the whole answer lies in how many guys are running what in the end....The national market will do what it wants but as for your LHS that will be how its always been.... :wave:

I would go out and buy the 17.5 right now if ten other guys were runnin it...But they(manufacturers) do this on purpose and call it variety...Whats the deal its seems to me that its always been 27t stock and 19t in the brushed market why make this 17.5 motor...Whats wrong with the 13.5 seems to me we are still trying to cater to the dying 27t market

I can partially answer the question of "WHY the 17.5 motor"

We approached NOVAK about building a Brushless Motor for oval racing that WOULD be closer to the speeds were are currently running with a 27t motor and 4 cell..but using LIPO batteries.

The 17.5 motor was the first attempt to find this motor.

After a lot of testing it was found that the 17.5 motor was TOO fast for this application, however through testing it was also determined that the 17.5 motor on the 3200 LIPO ran virtually identical to the 10.5 motor(aka 4300 motor) being used with 4 cell...and having several drivers test with it...THEY LOVED IT and LOVED the idea of being able to take THAT class speed to a LIPO battery...so we convienced NOVAK to make it on a limited availability (Which has become great enough for them to take this to a regular production level due to it popularity)

Also, during the testing of this motor it was found that on 4 cells, it DID run a lot closer to the speeds of a STOCK 4 cell combo than did the 13.5 (Which was actually very close to speeds of 10.5) Thus we found at least 2 possible class combinations for the 17.5 motor.

I've tested it in several other applications as well, and I've talked to others about testing it as well..and most like the results they have seen when putting this motor in a TC w/ 6 cells OR LIPO. VERY Drivable, close to STOCK/6 cell Touring Speeds...a possible GREAT Entry Level motor...and a GREAT race motor.

...the only bad part...it wasn't the motor we had been looking for to create a LIPO based motor that would run 4 cell STOCK speeds...so we've had NOVAK work up a New motor, that will be 21.5

I don't race oval, I'm coming from an onroad stance. 13.5 has been started as the "stock BL" class. I think it should stay that way. Looking to the future, the future started a year ago. Hundreds of local race tracks have started allowing 27t/13.5 classes. It's basically the evolution of things. The more we sit around kissing narrow minded asses, the longer we're stuck with these problems. 27t is dying, 13.5 is the next thing. The sooner we ALL embrace it, the better we'll be. New racers are who's gonna save the sport. New racers have embraced BL. It's time ROAR accepts this. The crusty veterans holding ROARs hand will finally have to follow.

I am impressed and jealous that the oval crowd has been lucky enough to make this great new technology work in their favor and continue to make strides. Why can't we do that??

Ben

New racers have embraced BL. It's time ROAR accepts this. The crusty veterans holding ROARs hand will finally have to follow.


Roar had nothing to do with any of the B/L choices being made so far...but like you said about NEW blood being what will cause RC to grow...it is felt by many....MANY....that first we need to slow things down to the speeds that RC was when it had some if it's biggest growth.

These days we've got it SO GOOD with awesome 'stuff', but speeds are so much faster right out of the box now vs. what they were in the late 80's when RC growth was probably at it's highest.

The really cool thing with Brushless is - the NEW GUYS (unlike myself) won't be subject to spending $$$$ for motors that are JUNK, plus you can have a total of 4 motors per CAR and cover virtually EVERY speed possible. (Where as in the past most guy needed 4 or 5 of EACH style motor, plus SPRINGS, BRUSHES...DYNOS, COMM LATHES, BREAK IN TOOLS...and the list goes on)

Now that you mention it, I think I remember hearing the 17.5 was geared towards oval. Now, if the 13.5 is too fast, and the 17.5 is too slow, isn't a 21.5 a step in the wrong direction? For what it's worth, this is the best conversation I've ever seen on HT.

From what I've seen the 17.5 is the ticket.
We had two very well known drivers at our track last night running 12th scale.
One with the 17.5 and 4200's and the other with a well tuned CO27 and 4200's.
The only difference I could see was the up front power of the driver running the CO27 and that was short lived.

Cool , then we all agree that 27t brushed is DEAD. so why not have a run what you brung attitude toward it and allow them to runin the "stock " class , whether it be 13.5 or 17.5, although i do beleive the 17.5 is closer to the 27t stockers of today which is where this discussion was headed towards. all these different options are going to keep coming unless someone says " this is the standard we are running by". Like I said in my previous post, once a decision has been made for sure on which brushless we are going to call the "stock" brushless, a "if you wish to continue to run brushed motors that is your choice" attitude should be taken. NOT making a brushed class to further complicate a day of racing.

Stock is getting to fast already, especially if you consider the newer or less gifted drivers. 13.5, being faster than a brushed 27t motor, would be a step backwards speed wise.

Unfortunately, ROAR has yet to make a spec motor class for brushless. Everybody bought these 13.5 motors thinking they would be close to 27t, and now it turns out 17.5 is probably better. I'd point the finger at Novak, but all they are doing is trying to help us out. Maybe we can sell the 13.5s to the oval guys, and buy their 17.5s..... :rolleyes:

Well maybe we can all agree on this its not gonna happen this season anyway.....maybe some testing ..I am allready interested enough that I am going to get one and run it and see how it compares to the 13.5 cause I dont give a crap about the 27t market R.I.P.......But with this being a new age in R/C isnt stock what we make it or in 25 years are they still gonna try and find something the same speed as the 27t....

Has anyone heard if this motor is being considered by ROAR or I guess helping w/ the whole B/L debate or are we the enthusiasts trying to set the standard?

we entusiast are trying to set the standard because as usual roar is remaining silent until WE figure it out for them.

some governing body!!!

Some things never change.....

well strickly speaking about the topic of this thread regarding the 17.5 brushless motor and how it runs in the classes I am interested in (1/12th & sedan). I would say I have observed it to be very very close to same as what the current stock motors we are runin.

Obviously when there are only 10 to 15 racers showing up and 1 or two have brushless it is nice to be able to have everyone run similar speeds. I feel the 17.5 is a better choice for those who want to use brushless than the 13.5. with regard to 1/12th & sedan.

This all great information....

From what I've seen the 17.5 is the ticket.
We had two very well known drivers at our track last night running 12th scale.
One with the 17.5 and 4200's and the other with a well tuned CO27 and 4200's.
The only difference I could see was the up front power of the driver running the CO27 and that was short lived.
Where did Terry end up for rollout? Pinion as big as the spur?

88/64 :p

Great discussion guys, and it's been a pleasure to read...

Keep it up~

Maybe I'll get a 17.5 to try in my 12th scale. There is a sector of our club that view the 13.5 as "cheater". I feel my driving and setup skills are a up a level from last year, yet my peers are still only seeing a 13.5 in action. My enjoyment of racing doesn't in any way revolve around peer pressure, but unfortunate as it is, I just may have to meet in the middle.

Ben

None of those guys would say that.....

Where are guys rolling out the 17.5 in 12th scale road couse? I had the 13.5 up around 2.150. Are you going farther with the 17.5? How much gear can we fit on there???

Ben