Can someone post the races that will have brushless mod as a class? I know it's probably posted somewhere, but I'm too lazy to dig for it... lol

Can someone post the races that will have brushless mod as a class? I know it's probably posted somewhere, but I'm too lazy to dig for it... lol

Adam Vinton and Omaha are the only two so far. There may be one more added after the first of the year.

Oh, what about Cincinatti or CEFX? Suprised John, Kevin, Monti, and Josh don't want mod.

- John normally would but he probably will only have time to run one class and that will be 10.5.

- Monti is hanging onto the Brushed mod thing (At least until Duratrax whoops I mean Check-Point comes out with some Brushless stuff) :p

- Kevin is on semi-retirement.

- Josh would at this place however I don’t think we can draw a full heat. So not really worth doing.

Adam 10.5 is rapidly becoming the new Mod class. Not many guys feel comfortable running open mod speeds anymore. That's why it easier to just limit to a few race in hopes of a bigger crowd.

I chose Vinton and Omaha becuast they have drawn a good mod crowd in the past Greenville may be another possibility depending on the Snowbird’s mod rules, If they allow brushlees we may add the class down there.

Adam,

Looks like you will have to run mod at Classic in 2 weeks! You gonna show?

Mario

maybe.. depends of if i get a chance to do some onroad...lol

but i need to get the rest of my stuff...lol

def. here soon

Saw a ton of brushless Checkpoints at Vegas last weekend.

Time for brushless in mod for oval. Too many top racers I talk to are not going to race brushed mod anymore. If the class is going to survive and have top racers it needs to be both (in my opinion).

The only way brushed racing will die is if brushed motors are no longer produced ............

Now My opinion is that yea brushless got big quick and is great for racing but I still like Brushed mod the motor work is part of it.

Saw a ton of brushless Checkpoints at Vegas last weekend.

Time for brushless in mod for oval. Too many top racers I talk to are not going to race brushed mod anymore. If the class is going to survive and have top racers it needs to be both (in my opinion).

I do not concour, all the classes of oval cars are getting to fast and brushless mod is just adding to that. A 3.5 brushless motor is the same as running a 5 or 6 turn motor. Not to mention there are about 10 tracks in the country that can be considered a good mod track. People who think that brushless mod racing will bring new life to mod are crazy. I see guys at weekly club shows run 13.5 and can't stop from beating down the boards. Let face it Mod oval is dying because there are not new racers running mod (or new racers period). If you take your entery list of mod racers from the first and second Snowbirds and compare them to who is racing mod now I can pretty much count them all on two hands.

If I had my way and I know that I will not 21.5 needs to be tested (no Lipos either) here is a list of classes;

21.5 (if it works well enough, again no lipos)
17.5
10.5
Brushed mod

13.5 is to fast a class for the normal racer it's about three laps off a 10.5 and there needs to be a bigger gap between the classes and this does it. Mike I will be down in Florida in a few weeks for the last FOCAR race and we can chat about it then.

-Monti-

Now My opinion is that yea brushless got big quick and is great for racing but I still like Brushed mod the motor work is part of it.

Who are you? Your my new best friend!

-Monti-

I am Jason Hastings From Delaware Monti your a Checkpoint Man would you happen to have a couple of cans you would want to part with I wan to run Mod at the masters the guy that was going to wind the arms only can get the arms I need like two cans I have brushes and springs.

I am Jason Hastings From Delaware Monti your a Checkpoint Man would you happen to have a couple of cans you would want to part with I wan to run Mod at the masters the guy that was going to wind the arms only can get the arms I need like two cans I have brushes and springs.

I should be able to come with something for the weekend since I will be there running BRUSHED MOD!!!!!

-Monti-

Saw a ton of brushless Checkpoints at Vegas last weekend.

Time for brushless in mod for oval. Too many top racers I talk to are not going to race brushed mod anymore. If the class is going to survive and have top racers it needs to be both (in my opinion).

IMO, They should definately be ran together!!!! :thumbsup: Mod entries will go up!!!!

At the s.o.s. race last weekend at maximus in Maine, it was brushless or brushed modified in the same class, with more brushless cars than brushed!!! if it was brushed mod only there would have only been 3 or 4 entries! and fast lap for both classes was about the same! brushless mod rocks!!!

Let face it Mod oval is dying because there are not new racers running mod (or new racers period).

-Monti-

Not true! There were 3 or 4 racers in Maine last weekend that had never ran mod b4, and becouse they were allowed to run brushless mod they got excited about the class and went to the track a bunch of times b4 the race to practice and were actually excited about racing mod!!! One local racer Mike Mcdermott even qualified 2nd and his car was awesome! Even had Jarred Langlois(onroad racer) running mod becouse he was able to run brushless stuff! From what i see brushless mod is bringing ALOT of new intrest into modified oval!!! :thumbsup:

13.5 is to fast a class for the normal racer it's about three laps off a 10.5 and there needs to be a bigger gap between the classes and this does it.

-Monti-

I agree.. 13.5 seems to be the catch all right now for all people breaking into BL and its too fast for a lot of the guys running it... You take a new or Stock racer>>>tell them to Remove the rear wing from the car, then go out and run a race at those speeds and you end up with a lot of broken parts. 13.5 is close to 19T and you would have been a real gambler showing up and trying to run wingless at most 19T races.. I say this after seeing this situation 2 weeks in a row where cars were destroyed due to the vast speed and handling differences in 13.5 racers.. Hopefully the 17.5 will curb some of that..

Im all for 17.5 as well! That will be a great transition class from 4 cell stock to brushless! New brushless racers wont be overwhelmed by the new faster speed and will be able to concentrate on get'n used to the new routine of brushless racing. :thumbsup:

I agree with Monti on just about all of his points.

-The speed of mod is TOO fast to have fun/quality races with average ability AND average wallets racing on average tracks. It takes the race size of the Snowbirds to actually have a decent mod race, something is not right.

-Allowing brushless should be allowed in mod, this class is the proper place for the new technology, not just for the intermediate classes. However it still falls victim to the above point (too fast/$) and is only going to re-attract the same racers we currently have.

Want brand new racers? When the sponsored stock-gods are moved out of the entry level classes to make room for the new guy. A slow (new guy), average, and mod (about everyone in this thread) class is all we need.



-

I agree with Monti on just about all of his points.

-The speed of mod is TOO fast to have fun/quality races with average ability AND average wallets racing on average tracks. It takes the race size of the Snowbirds to actually have a decent mod race, something is not right.

-Allowing brushless should be allowed in mod, this class is the proper place for the new technology, not just for the intermediate classes. However it still falls victim to the above point (too fast/$) and is only going to re-attract the same racers we currently have.

Want brand new racers? When the sponsored stock-gods are moved out of the entry level classes to make room for the new guy. A slow (new guy), average, and mod (about everyone in this thread) class is all we need.



-

true! Stock and or 17.5 needs to become the entry level class again in order to attract new racers. :thumbsup:

Want brand new racers? When the sponsored stock-gods are moved out of the entry level classes to make room for the new guy. A slow (new guy), average, and mod (about everyone in this thread) class is all we need.


I agree the "pro" stock guys need to move up. That would be a huge help.

.................................................. .................................................. ....
On a different note (not responding to Arnie) though I totally disagree that 13.5 should go. I'll ruffle a few feathers and say if anything ought to be gone it ought to be 10.5. The goal ought to be to get everyone in the class they belong in. Good luck ever getting a lot of those stock guys to jump to 10.5 the difference is just too huge. In my mind the 3 classes ought to be....

Stock - reserved for the guys who actually belong in stock

13.5 - This ought to be the biggest class. This is the class for all the experienced racers to come together and find out who's best. All the stock, 19T, 10.5 gods in one class.

Mod - Without a 10.5 class this class might start to grow. If you guys want to get it under some sort of control then create a limit on the number of turns on the motors.

i'll be newbe to the mod class

i've ran it off and on
but where i race at they don't run on a regular saturday night....

so if snowbirds allows brushless to run in the mod class then i'm in

all the above statements have good info

not having sponsor help with brushes, motors and batts can keep a average guy from running mod
but
with brushless
an average guy (like myself) will run mod any chance he may get
we would only have to worry about batts and car set up

I had planned on running Mod in the BRL series this year, but they didn't have it so i'm running 10.5

see everyone in cincy

later
jason

Pat- I agree with you on the classes. How about a wing on the 13.5 car though?
13.5 seems as fast as 19t a couple of years ago where 10.5 is definately faster.

13.5 With A Wing Would Definitely Be As Quick As The Ultrabird 19 We Have Now.

Pat- I agree with you on the classes. How about a wing on the 13.5 car though?
13.5 seems as fast as 19t a couple of years ago where 10.5 is definately faster.

From a purely selfish perspective I like the BRL 13.5 body rules. That being said, I do agree that overall an option to run a wing would be best. Lately I have been running some 13.5 out here in MA and have been sticking to the BRL body rules, the others in the class of course are not since they don't run BRL. I have done pretty well against them. If given the option to run a wing I would probably not. What I would do is run a 1" spoiler, which would help a lot and cut out the rear of the body, which helps plant the car slightly.

Interestingly enough I ran 10.5 last weekend and went faster with my BRL 13.5 body then I could with my winged body. The car was 70% out of control though!

Currently with the speeds we've gotten to the 13.5 BRL class is noticeably harder to drive then the 10.5 class. I think that is probably backwards of how it should be, but I still personally like the rules, they make it fun for me.

Here is a speed comparison.
This summer at the Tri-Clone, in the final race I was at, I was practicing and the computer was hosed up so it was keeping a 4 minute pace instead of 5. With a so so pack and running about 4 laps before starting my timed run I was able to run 40 4:06 with a 13.5. In the first summer that we ran 4300 (10.5) in 2005 the fastest we got to was 39 4:00. I believe that in a 4 minute run the 10.5 cars will be able to hit 43 laps there this summer. If my memory serves me that is very close to what the slower open mod cars were doing at the 2004 paved nats.

I thought about running Mod last year, but Sonny wouldn't let me do that and 13.5 at Nats :)

Sorry guys the body rule for 13.5 is not going to change. No need to start an open debate. The cars are not any faster now then they were at the end of the season last year.

It may require a slightly different driving style but in my opinion that’s a good thing. It adds more separation between the classes. It’s not simply just a slower version of 10.5. Also If the cars move around a little that’s a plus it puts the driver back into the equation.

We had some great racing in the class last year and indication are it is going to be even stronger this year. I would suggest that if some don’t feel comfortable at current 13.5 speeds give the new 17.5 class a shot. :wave:

Like I said. I personally like the body rules and I now know for a fact the cars can be just as fast or pretty close at least with the BRL rules as open rules :).

The cars are not any faster now then they were at the end of the season last year.

I hope mine is! ;)

Pat, I think we all hope for that!!!!! LOL

You're hoping my car is faster too! Thanks AJ :thumbsup: ;)

Thanks AJ, just what we needed...an even faster Pat.
Of course, we now know what his kryptonite is...all I have to do is find my Paragon Cologne.

Thanks AJ, just what we needed...an even faster Pat.
Of course, we now know what his kryptonite is...all I have to do is find my Paragon Cologne.

Nope! I got set straight! I found out it's actually good for me. :p

not having sponsor help with brushes, motors and batts can keep a average guy from running mod
but
with brushless
an average guy (like myself) will run mod any chance he may get
we would only have to worry about batts and car set up

jason

As long as you are assuming the sponsored Novak, LRP, Checkpoint, and Orion guys won't have different wound B/L mod cans, test speedos, test rotors, and are just running the same motor YOU can buy off the shelf you would be correct. But, it usually wasn't this way in brushed, and probably won't be in B/L. Not bashing, just food for thought.

good point
Kevin

i'm just racing to have fun and going fast is fun .......sometimes,,

As long as you are assuming the sponsored Novak, LRP, Checkpoint, and Orion guys won't have different wound B/L mod cans, test speedos, test rotors, and are just running the same motor YOU can buy off the shelf you would be correct. But, it usually wasn't this way in brushed, and probably won't be in B/L. Not bashing, just food for thought.

Well said my good man!

-Monti-

As long as you are assuming the sponsored Novak, LRP, Checkpoint, and Orion guys won't have different wound B/L mod cans, test speedos, test rotors, and are just running the same motor YOU can buy off the shelf you would be correct. But, it usually wasn't this way in brushed, and probably won't be in B/L. Not bashing, just food for thought.


How quickly we forget about the one run team brushes that cost $15 -20 pair. If you could buy them. New motor cans that team guys seemed to always get before the general public and special team wound arms.

The upside to Brushless mod is that we again have more power than we know what to do with. You can buy a system off the shelf and be competitive from an HP standpoint. That is as long as you can put the power down and wheel her around.

How quickly we forget about the one run team brushes that cost $15 -20 pair. If you could buy them. New motor cans that team guys seemed to always get before the general public and special team wound arms.

The upside to Brushless mod is that we again have more power than we know what to do with. You can buy a system off the shelf and be competitive from an HP standpoint. That is as long as you can put the power down and wheel her around.

I've become so fed up with how big of a hassel it has become to get good brushes im undecided if i will ever race brushed mod again!.. Brushless mod is the future!

How quickly we forget about the one run team brushes that cost $15 -20 pair. If you could buy them. New motor cans that team guys seemed to always get before the general public and special team wound arms.

The upside to Brushless mod is that we again have more power than we know what to do with. You can buy a system off the shelf and be competitive from an HP standpoint. That is as long as you can put the power down and wheel her around.
Now you know that us people can buy what the team guys get or that's what they say .

Just to make a point...

NEVER have Ricky or Myself ever recieved any motor, wind, brush, spring, sticker, shim, battery, etc. etc. etc. etc. That the everyday racer couldn't get. I got so sick of this crap, especially in 19turn when a HOBBY SHOP motor won by a lap! I guess when you take time to test your stuff and make sure its good, your only fast cuz your on a team. :freak:

Sometimes your hobbyshop won't have the specific modified wind or whatever that you want, sometimes you just gotta get off your butt and order it direct; that would be why the compainies like Fantom, Truespeed, KC, EA, Putnam, etc. have phone numbers and e-mail addresses!

Anyways, it was often RUMORED to be this way with brushed stuff. It may or may not be this way with brushless. Either way, the fast will be fast and the slow will be last. And the fast guys will be or eventually be on teams and this whole cycle will start again. Where do you think the fast guys were a few years ago? After all of their dedication, practice, racing, practice, asking questions, practice, and uhm did I mention practice, do you think that they might not have learned somthing to make them fast? When they got fast and started producing results companies started to take notice and help them out kind of as a reward for their hard work? And it is not sponsorships that kill racing, it is the idea that "I got beat by a team guy so he must have special stuff" that is killing racing. It KILLED 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guys are so bent on winning anymore it's ridiculelus! Everyone expects to be at the top out of the gate. I have spent at least every saturday for the past 8 years racing and practicing. Not including through the week, big races, etc. I skipped dances, parties, concerts, etc. through jr. high, high school, and college because I wanted to be and still want to be the best. So pardon me if I seem a little defensive.

Maybe we should have an invite class at the Snowbirds or somthing. They did this at the champs a few years back with trinity t-spec cars. Take 10 oval drivers and give them all sk cars or somthing. Throw in the same motor (4300, UB, or C27), same tires, same batteries, same everything. All you can change is springs/oil. I'll bet that the fast guys still end up on top.


A little less defensive...

I am not a big fan of brushless, but it probably will end up taking over. I much rather prefer building my motors and tinkering with them to get the hp out. It's more fun for me. Some have more fun with setups and your opinion is different than mine. Either way technology will continue to advance and things will continue to change. I will stick with brushes as long as I can, but I do plan on running some of the BRL series races when possible. Sonny is doing a great job with the BRL and it seems to be a great series.

Why does everything always have to be a huge debate anymore!?!?! The only reason this thread was started was so I could figure out if I had to run mod or 4300 at BRL races. HOLY COW!



-Adam Liehr :wave:

That's well said you can take Fantom out though.

adam run 10.5(4300) you wont regret it.

Adam I don't think anyone is accusing you or Rick or anyone else for that matter.

You are correct the better racers who work on there equipment and test will always come to the front. Having said that if you think my above comments are based on just rumors you are mistaken. Everything I mentioned has happened and in recent years. I'm not really saying that is was illegal for that matter, factory teams will always use there resources for a competitive advantage.

However something has caused the decline of mod racing over the last few years and I don't think it is just speed related. As you can see from Franks comment something as simple as not even being able buy to a decent set of brushes does get a little frustrating.

BTW: I don't consider the Fantom's, EA's and Kisby's and KC's of the world a manufacturer. There more like specialty tuners but for the most part the do not actually manufacture cans or brushes.



My point on the Brushless mod stuff is that we now are now back to the point where the cars are overpowered and your throttle finger and steering wheels plays as much a part in winning as your chassis set-up or motor tune-up. You don't have to be a factory guy to get that type of rip you can simply walk in buy it off the store shelf and Its going to be the same lap after lap race after race. It just simplifies things a little

I never started R/C racing because I wanted to become an electric motor engineer, chassis or tire specialist, battery chemist or areodynamicist. I started because it looked like fun and I wanted to race wheel to wheel with someone and see who was the best.

The more we get away for the engineering side and the closer we get to the fun side the faster the car counts will grow across the board.

Look forward to seeing you in Cincy. :wave:

Great post Adam and Sonny. Adam you are correct. Fast guys will win no matter what class they run.

However something has caused the decline of mod racing over the last few years and I don't think it is just speed related. As you can see from Franks comment something as simple as not even being able buy to a decent set of brushes does get a little frustrating.


Being from an area that seemed like MOD Racing survived a lot longer than other areas...a few of the things I see/saw in the decline of MOD racing out here are multiple.

A) Mod racing on OVAL Tracks use to be done by the TOP Drivers in the Country - these were what we called "Factory Drivers". When the numbers in OVAL racing started dropping and On-Road Touring took off, a lot of the MFG's stopped sending thieir drivers to the "Not As Big" oval races. With that the class started dwindling...and a lot of the MOD drivers started either running in the 19t class, or not even coming to the events.

B) Tracks couldn't handle the SPEEDS of MOD - As a lot of the old larger fast tracks started closing and the average size of tracks seems to get smaller and smaller...a lot of tracks don't even offer a MOD class.

One of the reasons OVAL switched to 4 cell almost 10 years ago was due to speeds. Too many of the average racers could no longer handle the speeds of 6 cell with batteries getting better, motors getting better, cars getting more technical and setups getting finer.

Fast forward to the last few years...and most mod drivers using 6x1, or 7x1 motors...that had SO much rip... again, the NON Expert type of drivers found themselves unable to drive or control the cars with these motors. You have a very small handful of guys across the nation who CAN - but unfortunately you don't get those guys together but a couple times a year.

Those drivers who CAN handle that kind of SPEED usually seemed to require "Special Handling" by having their motor builder/tuner on sight to keep their motor fresh and ready to run....cutting the COMMS every run...rebrushing them EVERY run, working, tweaking, always hands on w/ the motors.

Now, bring in a 3.5 Brushless Mod - Consistant RIP, No need for Rebuilding, the motor stays what I would say is 98+% consistant....so the old Mod Racer can now run with a lot more ease. However, these are still TOO fast for most of the Common, Average drivers. (Hence the popularity of the B/L classes that are drivable)

It's always great to see those races where the Top Level HOT DOGS show up and put on a clinic in the MOD CLASS - but moreoften when there is a MOD CLASS these days - it has maybe 10 entries - and 4-5 of them end up 1/2 dozen laps off the pace.

(Personally, I never had any problem buying or building a MOD MOTOR much faster than MY driving ability allowed...nor do I know anyone else I ran mod against who wasn't in the same boat...)

...on another note about MOD - MOD Touring has dwindled for a lot of the same reasons...which is probably one of the reasons guys like Mike Reedy started pushing for MOD TOURING to go to 4 cell several years ago. (Slow the cars down...and SELL more motors) The 4 cell TOURING never caught on then..yet they are still trying to push for 4 or 5 cell NOW.

Sonny
That post wasn't so much defending Ricky and myself, however it was more defending the idea of the special sponsored stuff.
I understand what you mean about the brushless mod thing and I think you are right. Unfortunately, I just like tinkering with motors. lol.

I don't know if we will make Cinci. Ricky has to work. Possibly at CEFX or SCH.

Adam Liehr

I agree Adam. Part of mod is building a motor. But I think brushless is here to stay, and thats fine with me, as long as we have something to race. You should try and make cinci, mario and I are going.

Give me a call sometime.

Joel

A thought I have had on of this debate is this:

10 years ago racers didn't we work on their cars and chassis near the amount they do now. Look at the chassis - nothing was really left side this, offset that. We basically ran the cars the way they came. All the bench work was spent on matching batteries, doing motors, etc. Many of us did our own batteries, man that was a 40 hour a week chore just to go fast. Maybe we found speed back then by motors and batteries and chassis wasn't in the equation. That was the addiction. But in today's world - it seems to be all about the chassis. There are chassis dynos, and a million setups you can run and changes you can make. More than you can do on a raceday that is for sure. So maybe the efforts of racing are the same - just shifted. Some guys today like to work on their and get their fix that way, more than the motors. We are in transition that is for sure. Can't wait to be all on the same path.

Yea Mike I remember that and racing was way more fun back in those days.

brushless mod is awesome because I know that the motor I have is the same as others. what I mean is RC Cars is very clicky. if youj not in the click then your not get the good products. i am not saying that you'll get junk but you can't tell me that the 6x1 arm i bought from tower or the LHS is the same as the arm that the driver from that company who is the a main at the birds has.

brushless mod is awesome because I know that the motor I have is the same as others. what I mean is RC Cars is very clicky. if youj not in the click then your not get the good products. i am not saying that you'll get junk but you can't tell me that the 6x1 arm i bought from tower or the LHS is the same as the arm that the driver from that company who is the a main at the birds has.
Dude don't go there you'll have a big debate on that one.