finally grouped some of these together . it is a nice way to see the white to cream and yellow to mustard colors.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3954/mecedes27stbxet6.jpg

The box art on all these issues is fantastic, one of the better looking cars which has been drawn better than some others........doesnt the E Box rw issue deserve to be included in the photo too???
The final Lesney England production of this casting was the more mustard shade for the Japanese market in special box designs - I have only ever seen photos of these fine Japanese issues (thanks to MCCH!) some of which had different numbers (no15 VW became no 30 for example).
In the switch to SF wheels paint shades generally became brighter and louder, although bucking the trend looking at the yellow issues, which began with the brightest yellow red seat cars, this one was toned down with each re-run with black seats and a switch from bright yellow to mustard

Does it have a metal base?

Does it have a metal base?
Yes it does

of course the rw mercedes belongs with the group :)
most of the first wave of japanese numbers showed up in various blisters, two packs and multi packs as with junkman’s volkswagen 1500 and the two pack i posted. i have the ford gt white with wide wheel wells + black base and white with multi color label in blisters (shown).
the choice was if you wanted to obtain the special box too, which are nice.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3951/fordgt41sf1uz0.jpg
i have a few of the 1984 japanese yellow boxes, which some were also issued in other packages. i will try and post them.

The newer Mb all have plastic bases... wished they sticked to the old metal ones..

of course the rw mercedes belongs with the group :)
most of the first wave of japanese numbers showed up in various blisters, two packs and multi packs as with junkman’s volkswagen 1500 and the two pack i posted. i have the ford gt white with wide wheel wells + black base and white with multi color label in blisters (shown).
the choice was if you wanted to obtain the special box too, which are nice.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3951/fordgt41sf1uz0.jpg
i have a few of the 1984 japanese yellow boxes, which some were also issued in other packages. i will try and post them.
The Ford GT with the Renault 17 sticker is a new variation for me - it is smart and a touch more modern than the original blue sticker.Also the wide wheels look much better on this casting than skinnies.White clearly works better than metallic red/orange/bronze so I am not surprised Lesney went back to white for the Japanese issue.Great pix Mountain :thumbsup: , thanx for sharing and showing me another issue that I really want to own ;)

The Japanese issues were very nice and I suspect Lesney missed an easy opportunity in the rest of the world with these timeless cars. The black JPS Lotus Europa is particularly fine and back in 1977 when this was issued black JPS Lotuses were winning F1 contenders, we all bought Corgi large scale JPS lotuses but didnt get the chance for the Lesney.........I have one and also a gold 24 Rolls but otherwise all Japanese issues have proven elusive so far....

Also the wide wheels look much better on this casting than skinnies.....

Really? Wow. I very much prefer the skinny sf wheels on ALL of the transitionals.

That along with the sad fact they had to butcher the wheel wells. Yuck! (IMO)

Never thought of this but are the castings with the wider wheels and hacked out wheel-wells put in another or considered another group?
Like "Transitional B" or something?
Know wha'um sayin'?

Thanks for the great pics!

Really? Wow. I very much prefer the skinny sf wheels on ALL of the transitionals.

That along with the sad fact they had to butcher the wheel wells. Yuck! (IMO)

Never thought of this but are the castings with the wider wheels and hacked out wheel-wells put in another or considered another group?
Like "Transitional B" or something?
Know wha'um sayin'?

Thanks for the great pics!
As a general rule I prefer skinny SF transitionals to all other Lesneys but given the real life stance of the Ford GT the wide wheels do suit it well
wide SF wheels already are a separate varition number or category to skinny wheels issues of the same casting

As a general rule I prefer skinny SF transitionals to all other Lesneys but given the real life stance of the Ford GT the wide wheels do suit it well
Yeah on the much newer Ford GT, but that is a '66 GT- 40 and I think the 1:1 cars
tires were not that wide. They're probably in between the two.
(Hows that for a diplomatic responce? :p ) I do value you guy's opinions, I hope I
don't sound opinionated!

wide SF wheels already are a separate varition number or category to skinny wheels issues of the same casting

Thanks ~ I do have a MB book, I probably could have looked it up!

the # 3 binz ambulance had a hacked out look, along with the three wheel wells, the higher front sf wheel well received a support brace.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5606/binzsf3frbraceji5.jpg
tf the rear interior didn’t have the notch fully cut it arched upwards.
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1204/binzambulancesf3interioue2.jpg
a little obsessive, :rolleyes: different color wheel clips on the rw binz ambulance.
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2756/binzrw3colorclpqq5.jpg

They hacked out the #67 VW fastback too. Others?
I have the VW and the rest of the car Ferry Gift Set it came in.

Let me look in the book for other wheel-wells they opened up;

#4 Europa,
#5 Mustang
#20 Lambo Mazeral
#24 Rolls? not sure, only have pic of thin wheel. Although was there even a wide whl of this or just #39 B?
#27 230 SL
#41 GT-40, I think we spoke of this earlier?
#53 Ford Zodiac
#55 B I think is a chopped out version of the #73 Merc wagon(?)
#65 BMC
and #59B Merc fire chief is a chopped out version of #55A ~ interesting!
#62 Couger Dragster? Technically not because it's a different casting altogether.
#68 Porsche 910? not sure, only have thin wheel pic, have both but are packed away. They must have. Checked-no, they didn't
#69 Rolls cnvt??? Don't think so.
#73 Merc. wgn
And that's it. Any corrections? Did I miss any?



.

the # 3 binz ambulance had a hacked out look, along with the three wheel wells, the higher front sf wheel well received a support ]

Along with the three whl wells?
I'm trying to figure this out. Was there 3 different SF whl well versions?
A1 not chopped, A2 just fronts, A3 all four?
You know what's interesting, and you probably already realize this, in looking at pics in my book sf A1 has slightly bigger rear whl wells than the rw version! And you know what else?(you probably do) It's a totally different casting! Pretty cool. Yeah, you guys MUST know that. :)
I'm wondering if any sf's where made using the rw body.

Signed Dying To Know
Lummoxborg, Maine

I dont think Lesney re-tooled any existing castings in the transitional era. I do think that tooling was modified in each case, so the rw bodyshell tools were used for the SF issues,although with baseplates some were definitely re-tooled rather than modified.Its a case of compare the castings with your own eyes, looking for similarities as well as differences.I think the Rat Rod is the same tool as the 62 Cougar with major changes.It is easier to add more metal to a casting by shaving the tool, adding extra slides to reduce volume of the casting is a more complex process (easy to eliminate opening doors, costly to introduce opening doors).Some may well have been retooled for the twin pack era -like the 23 VW camper/Pizza van
There is no logic to the coloring of plastic suspension in 1-75 series - I suspect they used whatever color was to hand after color specific items like seats and windows had been made, not a variation I would collect,although it doesnt do any harm to list the range of colors discovered!

I see what you mean about the Rat Rod. Too many similarities in most areas.

I'm realy still wondering about the Binz though. All I have is the rw and the wide whl sf.

i guess it's probably the same casting, but I'd still like to see the first sf version.
From pics it looks to be possibly the only transitional to have the rear whl well
modifided in all stages from the rw to the 1st sf then to the wide whl version..

i mentioned the #3 binz because it looked a little more hacked out than some of the others. i would add the #31 sf lincoln to the list, this definitely had cleaner wheel well lines.
i would always ask questions and give any information i thought would be of interest to any topic. the sharing of information is what i believe builds a strong hobby. :)

i would agree with sms88 about wheel suspension, if somebody wants to collected them fine, but a foot note is always nice.

lummox does your car ferry set have the #13 buggy with the sunburst label?

regarding the sf binz wheel wells. here is the 1973 A.I.M. coding.
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3392/binzcatalogwellfe3.jpg
updates and more clarification via the monthly bulletins.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5588/binzcatalogwell1ty9.jpg
i showed this picture a little while ago, the three wheel well sizes show up better on the rear of the model.
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2953/binz3sfwheelwellgr9.jpg

sms88, i was looking at a sale list from the early seventies and the same person listed the red seat mercedes in both light and dark yellow, plus the black seat mercedes in light and dark yellow. :confused:

(My car ferry has a 13 Buggy with a red flower label)
(Does Mountain have a light yellow red seat 230SL? I havent seen a photo of one before -it could have been listed by the owner of a sunfaded example)

I have looked at mine -rw, 1971 wide SF and 1979 twin pack sf (cant find the skinny wheels SF but I do have one...) and I can see that they are clearly the same tools that have been modified & repaired after heavy use. The twin pack has had major alterations to the front end with the headlamps being cast into the body instead of being part of the baseplate.The rear door has also been cast in and the rear lamps changed - I suspect both these ends of the tool are new segments replacing the old.The fact that the wheel arches are widened for the original 1971 wide wheel issue and then given lips slightly reducing their size for the twin pack issue along with the reduced overlap on the front fenders suggests that these parts of the tool have also been re-cut.The baseplate shows modifications rather than new design - the provision for a tow hook on the twin pack issue is interesting -I havent seen any ever with tow hooks.
This model was produced in huge quantities so its only natural that the tool would wear heavily - but things like the roofline remain the same (even if window pillars have thickend) suggesting tool wear repair rather than a new tool.If they were going to make a new tool they would have picked a more modern ambulance ...... twin packs were a lowcost option using obsolete tools that still had some life in them
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/SMS369/toys/2007-9Sep189.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/SMS369/toys/2007-9Sep190-1.jpg

My car ferry came with #31 Beach Buggy w/spatter paint 7 no labels.
Also came w/med blue Iso #14,
#9 Boat
#67 med purple VW
# 20 orange/salmon Mazeral ~ all pretty standard stuff I think.


On the Binz I found the updates part of your notes from AIM very telling.
It says the very first sf version had wheel wells same as the rw car - unmodified.
That's why I was more looking for comparisons between the earliest sf Binzs
and rw Binzs.
Does anyone have one like this? I'm wondering how rare or if it is rare at all.

It's very fustrating Binz whl well info is not in my Charlie Mack MB book. Givin that, I'm sure much more has been omitted.

Thanks for all the great info!!! :thumbsup:
You guys are an amazing source of info/history/etc. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: !!!

Lummox, I suggest that if you need accurate information, forget about C.Mack (ok for beginners but the book misses out so much AND through ignorance legitimises a few FAKES as has been well documented by the good ole boys on MCCH :wave: ).
Schiffer clearly has considered the much more complete and reliable AIM publications and is a much more useful book IMHO.But for the best of all worlds and the combined knowledge of the online experts, Christian Falkensteiners superb site has everything we need to know , even prepros and Brazilian issues are identified when known see www.mboxcommunity.com/cfalkens/
In fact some of the casting variations we have discussed here on HobbyTalk have been added to his site this year after they were discussed here :thumbsup:
My childhood Ferry came with no 9 Boat, no 13 Buggy, No 51 Citroen SM and no 33 Datsun 126X way back on Christmas day 1974

Crap!
My 'puter's got a virus. That's probably why "acsess has been denied from this server"
or something like that.
That's so cool stuff you guys have discovered made it to that site. Good work!!!
Very much looking foward to checking it out, thank you!

Your Ferry cars weren't Streakers or had no different markings either?
The cars being different must mean yours has a different production date than mine?

Crap!
My 'puter's got a virus. That's probably why "acsess has been denied from this server"
or something like that.
That's so cool stuff you guys have discovered made it to that site. Good work!!!
Very much looking foward to checking it out, thank you!

Your Ferry cars weren't Streakers or had no different markings either?
The cars being different must mean yours has a different production date than mine?

My sincere apologies Lummox for posting the wrong link - it works now -give it a shot -who needs Mack or Schiffer when the wisdom of Falkensteiner is available online and doubled checked by the nets most knowledgable collectors :thumbsup:

From "crap" to HOLY CRAP!!!
Ahhhh...that's the stuff!
The word comprehensive comes to mind. Only checked out the #1 Benz Lorry sf so far,
but I'm just blown away. Thanks again!

are you referring to the 1983 blue shiffer book?
if you look at the A.I.M. description/coding for the sf #3 binz (1973 and circa late seventies ) above and the rw description/coding below from 1976. the similarities are very close. then if you look in the acknowledgments and credits for the rw and sf models you will see no mention of AI.M. that in my opinion is was just one of the things that was going on in the hobby back then.
this was all before the popularity of the internet, the information had to begin somewhere and in my opinion should be noted as such but you do not see A.I.M. credited that often in print or the internet.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9264/binz2rwcataj2.jpg

are you referring to the 1983 blue shiffer book?
if you look at the A.I.M. description/coding for the sf #3 binz (1973 and circa late seventies ) above and the rw description/coding below from 1976. the similarities are very close. then if you look in the acknowledgments and credits for the rw and sf models you will see no mention of AI.M. that in my opinion is was just one of the things that was going on in the hobby back then.
this was all before the popularity of the internet, the information had to begin somewhere and in my opinion should be noted as such but you do not see A.I.M. credited that often in print or the internet.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9264/binz2rwcataj2.jpg
Now that there are so many sources, with AIM and Stannard as the 2 independently original sources, everybody compiling any kind of reference since these 2 original publications has to be influenced by them to some significant degree - but the info is actually Lesney production specs and as such even AIM is only reporting observations of the company´s activities.

My Schiffer book was printed about 5 years ago, and is a revised reprinted version of an older book covering both rw and sf made by Lesney upto 1983 - for copyright purposes folks tend to be reluctant to quote sources when they dont have express permission to use material - the chronological orderings is sometimes wrong but most variations I know about are listed and its not easy to find a mistake. The C Mack book on the otherhand doesnt cover the most interesting non-color variations, and does include a few fakes/pre-pros which are presented as regular issued models.I use the wonderful Christian Falkensteiner website, my Schiffer book has been opened no more than a couple of times this year -I hope to get a Matchbox 40 years book eventually which I think is all that i will need to compliment my collection and online sources.I am not that concerned about rw variations because apart from the final 1968 catalog lineup I only collect the rw castings that i like - which stands at approx 160/256 odd different rw issued castings, and will not get much higher.....

Ok yeah, I've been away from MBs for a little while, you'll have to forgive me
- It IS the '83 Shiffer book that I have.
I neglected to check it for the Binz whl opening info. It's all there just like you say.

Would you say the unmodified whl opening sf version bould be htf?

SMS88 ~ you're saying you're concentrating mostly on transitionals right now?

yes it all stems from lensey, but that does not explain the neglect of mentioning A.I.M. on the hobby side.
harold colpitts was a registered dealer and also had an account with lesney products, i think at one time he stocked the entire matchbox line, not just the diecast models, so there was a little more of a connection to lensney than some others.
at one time he was also approached to run the matchbox news letter, some of the people that wrote questions to the news letter were referred to A.I.M. i am not saying anyone is better than anyone else but a little acknowledgement doesn’t hurt. :)

if you look at the credits in the 1983 shiffer book most were members of or former members of A.I.M. i find it hard to believe that none of them thought of mentioning or contacting A.I.M. some of them are regarded as the most elite in the hobby. in my opinion that doesn’t smell right. :)

yes it all stems from lensey, but that does not explain the neglect of mentioning A.I.M. on the hobby side.
harold colpitts was a registered dealer and also had an account with lesney products, i think at one time he stocked the entire matchbox line, not just the diecast models, so there was a little more of a connection to lensney than some others.
at one time he was also approached to run the matchbox news letter, some of the people that wrote questions to the news letter were referred to A.I.M. i am not saying anyone is better than anyone else but a little acknowledgement doesn’t hurt. :)

if you look at the credits in the 1983 shiffer book most were members of or former members of A.I.M. i find it hard to believe that none of them thought of mentioning or contacting A.I.M. some of them are regarded as the most elite in the hobby. in my opinion that doesn’t smell right. :)

Morally you are quite right. Modern day culture & Ego plays its role in these matters unfortunately, and while many of us are aware that only AIM and Stannard had direct contact with the Lesney factory it doesnt stop a minority from wanting to write their own ´´improved´´ 1-75 history & listings without having to expend time and money dealing with copyright issues.
The problems with getting hold of original AIM material with the current levels of interest explains the currently available alternatives and the marginalisation of AIM today.The current guardians of the AIM copyrights should perhaps be out there satisfying the demand that Schiffer satisfies.The Mack books are well distributed but collectors soon get wise to their short comings after they have paid their $ and move on to more comprehensive sources

nice topic and how it all starts from one picture :thumbsup:

backtracking to question of the yellow red seat 27 mercedes, my yellow with red seats are on the darker side. the list with both light and dark yellow was from new stock as far as i can tell. maybe it was just light enough to see a difference but not light enough to be the black seat yellow. :confused:

here are some of the 1984 yellow box japanese releases that were in the japanese line, some were released in other lines and some were not. the nice to meet you japan bus is in the blue box.
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2389/japan1984boxesij7.jpg

Lummox, I suggest that if you need accurate information, forget about C.Mack (ok for beginners but the book misses out so much AND through ignorance legitimises a few FAKES as has been well documented by the good ole boys on MCCH :wave: ).
Schiffer clearly has considered the much more complete and reliable AIM publications and is a much more useful book IMHO.But for the best of all worlds and the combined knowledge of the online experts, Christian Falkensteiners superb site has everything we need to know , even prepros and Brazilian issues are identified when known see www.mboxcommunity.com/cfalkens/
In fact some of the casting variations we have discussed here on HobbyTalk have been added to his site this year after they were discussed here :thumbsup:


Again, I'm blown away by this guy. Pics of the variations AND pics of the REAL CAR!!!

Does anyone have detailed pics of rw MBs like that? Didn't see anything that good in the MB Community site.