With the demise of ARCOR, is there still enough interest among Oval racers for Novak to release the 21.5T SS Pro Motor?

Yes!

I tried to email Charlie - but it bounced back (his email filter is on)

I think there is and/or can be a market for this motor, and we've got a group of our stock guys who are really wanting a "STOCK SPEED" motor that can be used with the higher voltage packs.

I do believe the progression of the class may be slower w/o ARCOR, but I do believe in the class.

...with that being said - the 17.5 / Lipo combo has generated a decent interest out here (not sure how much anywhere else...) but the guys running IT are VERY excited about the future. We've got guys who like the current 4 cell STOCK speeds that are also very excited in what they've seen with the 17.5 class using the LIPOs but don't want to compete at that SPEED level (But they are liking the ease and simplicity of the B/L motors...and the use of the LIPO batteries)

Will things survive w/o the 21.5 motor?

YES

Could the 21.5 motor class be successful?

YES

w/o ARCOR I would bet most places that chose to run a 21.5 class will also chose NOT to use the C.O.T. body (which looked like one of the things that may have held that class back in some markets)

21.5 will still be needed in my area for sure. Folks that run 13.5/4 cell are really anxious to make the switch to Li-po and the 21.5 will offer speeds that are real close.

Please continue with the 21.5!

In my opinion the 13.5 motor/class should be done away with and there should be the 21.5, 17.5, and 10.5 classes. 21.5 with Lipo is close to current stock speed. 17.5 with 4200 is close to stock speed, and 17.5 with lipo is close to 10.5 speed. It just seems to be the best idea to me for the racing comunity. 13.5 is to fast for most, and not fast enough for some.

With Lipo's on the horizon for oval, 21.5 Lipo could be the "spec", yea, that is a 4 letter word, but I think 21.5 is needed. That is going to be my next brushless purchase. Have a 10.5, 13.5 and 17.5 now.... Already have the Lipo and charger, just waiting for a opportunity to race it>

98Ron - THAT's My way of THINKING...

OWN a

21.5
17.5
13.5
10.5

4 motors (versus the dozens we own now) and be able to run virtually ANY brushless class w/ ANY battery combination.

And since MOST oval guys (myself included) have a tendency to OVER DO things - we'll probably end up with 2 or 3 of EACH of those motors. ( I say this because my B/L box is already up to 10 motors..and my LIPO case has 3 3200's already) SADLY, I still strongly believe I don't need that many - but that little thing that's been programed into my head over the past 20 years...MAKES me buy MORE when I find a good deal.

In my opinion the 13.5 motor/class should be done away with and there should be the 21.5, 17.5, and 10.5 classes. 21.5 with Lipo is close to current stock speed. 17.5 with 4200 is close to stock speed, and 17.5 with lipo is close to 10.5 speed. It just seems to be the best idea to me for the racing comunity. 13.5 is to fast for most, and not fast enough for some.

I think you will find that the 21.5 with Lipo is closer to 13.5/4 cell speeds. The 13.5/4cell class will be the most popular class in the BRL this year so, I think that speed, works for more people than you think.

13.5/4cell is a great speed, I've run it a few times and think it's a lot of fun and much more controllable than the 10.5 on some of the short tracks.

The problem I see with 13.5 is it's really close to the 10.5 speeds and for some that's just too fast (for them)

Brian is right about the 21.5/Lipo speeds (may not be quite as fast as the 13.5 / 4 cell, but faster than 4 cell / stock)

Personally, I would have loved to see the 25.5 vs. the 21.5, or maybe even a 23.5...but I do think the 21.5 can/will make an awesome motor used w/ the higher voltage packs.

Joe, i agree, I have 2 10.5's. I ran 13.5 4 cell for the frist time a couple weeks ago on a 220' flat oval, I liked it allot, I had been running 10.5 on the same track. My age and lack of skill is gettin me to step down in class on the flat tracks. But banked concrete oval caps is still mod, for now. Want to run my 10.5 lipo on the 320" high banked in Ft. Lauderdale but have not been able to schedule it yet, but before XMAS I have to make it happen.

I will buy at least one 21.5...looking for something closer to stock with the lipo...

13.5/4cell is a great speed, I've run it a few times and think it's a lot of fun and much more controllable than the 10.5 on some of the short tracks.

The problem I see with 13.5 is it's really close to the 10.5 speeds and for some that's just too fast (for them)

Brian is right about the 21.5/Lipo speeds (may not be quite as fast as the 13.5 / 4 cell, but faster than 4 cell / stock)

Personally, I would have loved to see the 25.5 vs. the 21.5, or maybe even a 23.5...but I do think the 21.5 can/will make an awesome motor used w/ the higher voltage packs.

Totally agree!

In my opinion the 13.5 motor/class should be done away with and there should be the 21.5, 17.5, and 10.5 classes. 21.5 with Lipo is close to current stock speed. 17.5 with 4200 is close to stock speed, and 17.5 with lipo is close to 10.5 speed. It just seems to be the best idea to me for the racing comunity. 13.5 is to fast for most, and not fast enough for some.

Most popular class at paved nats and shapping up to be the most popular class in the Midwest. I think the most popular class in the mid Atlantic area like PA. It got run for probably the first time in the NE last weekend and I got a fair amount of feedback that it looked like a good speed and guys were interested.

Judging by the above I think it is working for a lot of people.

Yeah, I guess that makes sence. I am just of the opinion "less classes makes for better racing". But for BRL if you have like 4 classes that is not bad at all.

1 Motor 1 Battery The 21.5 Will Let Us Run Stock Speeds Without All The Motor Rebiulding AND Battery Care.

When Will The 21.5 Be Out

I haven't seen the 17.5 run yet, but I saw the mains that SW tour posted and it looks like the 17.5-Lipo is almost exactly the same speed and the 4300 4-cell and I would be interested in seeing the 21.5 with a lipo compared to 13.5 4-cell, if it is close then I think that it will certainly be a class with lots of interest.

AJS,

I don't have a results sheet for the 21.5 like I was able to post for the 10.5/17.5 comparision, but the following is the test results by one of the guys we had testing both the 21.5 and 25.5 motors (and the 17.5 on 4 cell). I don't have any 13.5 times for this track, I believe it's only been run once...but I never got the times.



Personal best in 4 cell Stock - 53/5.01 lap times start at 5.5 to 5.8s (Track Record = 54 laps)

The test was done with the track about 82 deg clean and empty no other cars,all runs were 5 minute runs.

2.25 size tire

First the 25.5 lipo
Lap times start at 5.7s to 6.0
Geared at 88/53
51/5.01 laps
Temp off 177 deg

17.5 4 cell new pack good
5.6 to 5.9s
88/49
52/5.02 laps
166 deg

21.5 lipo
5.4 to 5.8s
88/49
54/5.03-matched track record first try
187 temp

21.5 will still be needed in my area for sure. Folks that run 13.5/4 cell are really anxious to make the switch to Li-po and the 21.5 will offer speeds that are real close.

Please continue with the 21.5!

I agree with this!

Yes! Yes! Yes!

A group at my track is semi-patiently waiting there arrival. One of us has bugged you several times about it on the 21.5 thread. :jest:

I think another group at a different area track is also waiting for them.

The 21.5/LIPO combo will definitely be popular, especially for the indoor season since most of the tracks tend to be smaller.
Rick

NovakTwo,

I hope this somewhat answers that question...

Now the bigger question that I know the Mid-West guys (Carpet Season Guys) have...is WHEN can it be ready? Timing (availability) in time for the start of their season will probably help ... and that's coming really quick.

Do all these motors use the same rotor as the 13.5? We want to play also and choices make for healthy racing.

Tekin Prez

My opinion is to begin producing the 21.5 ASAP. Looks to be excellent for lipo's and by this time next year it could turn out to be your most popular motor.

Bill Murdock

Do all these motors use the same rotor as the 13.5? We want to play also and choices make for healthy racing.

Tekin Prez

Jim, all of our SS Pro and Velociti motors feature our standard sintered rotor.

The 21.5T SS Pro motor will be released, and listed on Shopatron, first week of October.

WoooHoooo~~

We are willing to offer a 17.5 and 21.5. We also think speeds are too fast in the 'slowest' classes. As has already been stated, we are not going to get rich on these, we are supporting the hobby and trying to make it easier to get people involved and keep them involved.

Tekin Prez

The 21.5T SS Pro motor will be released, and listed on Shopatron, first week of October.

I am glad to hear that!

I want to Thank JB for the foresight in only allowing the NOVAK motor. As she predicted, the can of worms is being opened. NOVAL does the leg work and others want to horn in. I see what she was saying, the future of brushless racing will be bleak, as we the racers allow every motor maker to start making a brushless motor we use (10.5-13.5-17.5-21.5). Yes, Tekin is making an offer, but will they use the same size wire? Will these motors be in the same inductance? There we go...back to the motor/mfg. of the week. Let one of the Tekin sponsored racers win with a motor and they will be the motor of the week. They will do it, but we are the ones that can control it. Guess we aren't smart enought o see that.??

JB: You did leave one legacy for us, the 17.5 and the 21.5 motors. I see that the BRL is adding the 17.5, now they have 5 classes. They have "too many classes" and are diluting the field. I just wonder why it's OK for them and but it was not OK for ARCOR??

I want to Thank JB for the foresight in only allowing the NOVAK motor. As she predicted, the can of worms is being opened. NOVAL does the leg work and others want to horn in. I see what she was saying, the future of brushless racing will be bleak, as we the racers allow every motor maker to start making a brushless motor we use (10.5-13.5-17.5-21.5). Yes, Tekin is making an offer, but will they use the same size wire? Will these motors be in the same inductance? There we go...back to the motor/mfg. of the week. Let one of the Tekin sponsored racers win with a motor and they will be the motor of the week. They will do it, but we are the ones that can control it. Guess we aren't smart enought o see that.??

JB: You did leave one legacy for us, the 17.5 and the 21.5 motors. I see that the BRL is adding the 17.5, now they have 5 classes. They have "too many classes" and are diluting the field. I just wonder why it's OK for them and but it was not OK for ARCOR??

Way to overreact!

The Tekin motors aren't legal anywhere in BL racing and those that want them to be legal are in the very very small minority. No can of worms whatsoever.

The BRL actually has 4 classes, which last time I checked was still half as many as 8.

Why even make posts like that? First of all it doesn't belong in this thread. Second of all you're getting stuff started without having a clue.

I can't go back to verify the classes that ARCOR had, but if I remember correctly, it was 5 in Brushless for the nickle hydrite batteries and 5 for the Lipo batteries. Each battery preference offered the 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, 10.5 and modified. Seems like she was catering to both the conventional battery users of nickle hydrites and to the coming lipo users. Since modifed class is a push, I will concede to 8 classes. The can of worms will open more when the Tekin racers want to run Tekin motors. Now that ARCOR is gone we will see how firm the BRL will be?

you're getting stuff started without having a clue.

That says everything right there!

Rickity please find something out about a subject before posting pure nonsense.

JB has chosen to move on so let's leave that at that and move on!

These slower, higher wind motors are for Lipo racing in the near future and way more will be sold and would have been sold to folks that want nothing to do with Arcor than would have been sold to Arcor racers.

Let the Arcor thing go or we could pound on that dead horse for months! :thumbsup:

No Tekin motor has ever been denied from approval, anywhere by anyone.

News Flash... our 10.5, 13.5 and 17.5 are exact copies of the Novak as they requested we all do in the BL motor discussions for racing.

We are doing our best to play nice and support the racing community where ever we can, but I gotta say the left hander group is a little left wing as well.

Tekin Prez

It's not to hard to see why JB retired ARCOR. Just can't figure out why she didn't do it sooner?

JB: I know it's late , but THANK YOU for all you have TIRED TO DO!!

Mr. Cambell,

I don't know if I'd say the 'left handers' are LEFT WING - (I'd say more Right Wing)

Regardless, one of the issues I know a lot of us are trying to avoid (because we've been through it OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER...(get the point) for instance in my case for over 22 years.

That issue is the perception of HAVING to HAVE the TRICKEST HOTTEST NEWEST Product of the WEEK to have GOOD Racing.

When racing against the same group of 100 racers (what ever the actual number is) there is NO reason why we have to have our products continually changing to beat these same guys.

The Cars/Batteries/Motors/Tires get better...and go FASTER - and the racing seems to go down hill. We take back a little control, slow things down...regulate them a little tighter...and BAM - all of a sudden the racing is the BEST we've seen in Years.

We get the COMPETITION LEVEL Up - that will draw NEW people who want to be a part...that will bring the numbers UP - and as long as we don't let PRODUCTS drive the racing - the racing will stay AWESOME.

Is there room for TEKIN in B/L Oval Racing? I honestly don't know...

It's kind of like the LIPO battery deal a group of us are pushing. ONE MFG.

Why? Because too often MFG's CAN'T/WON'T make 'equal' products... They always have to ONE UP each other. So we're back to WARS again... and while this may be healthy for business's who are competing against each other...it does NOTHING to help the guys who RACE (Except for those who are SPONSORED and GET THEIR STUFF REALLY CHEAP or for FREE)

So by keeping the reins TIGHT - and PRODUCTS limited - that takes OUT the "WAR" situation...and all that has to be focused on is GOOD RACING and a GOOD SHOW.

...you said the TEKIN 10.5, 13.5 and 17.5 are built or going to be built News Flash... our 10.5, 13.5 and 17.5 are exact copies of the Novak as they requested we all do in the BL motor discussions for racing.



That may be a good thing - and if they prove to be matched...at some point they may be allowed to run w/ the NOVAKs....who knows...

Mr. Cambell,

I don't know if I'd say the 'left handers' are LEFT WING - (I'd say more Right Wing)

- and if they prove to be matched...at some point they may be allowed to run w/ the NOVAKs....who knows...

Left just rhymed better.

That is all we ask for. It is our responsibility to provide a product that the organizers will accept. We are typically about the pursuit of perfection. In this case the goal is equality. However, If we are not even allowed to win why bother?

Assuming all the Novak motors are the same to begin with, ours will be the same as well. Its not that complicated and may in fact provide motors that are a lot more consistent than brushed did. How consistent are stock and 19t brushed motors now off the shelf???

The first 10 of each are built. We find them to be wheel for wheel on our carpet track.

Tekin Prez

No Tekin motor has ever been denied from approval, anywhere by anyone.

News Flash... our 10.5, 13.5 and 17.5 are exact copies of the Novak as they requested we all do in the BL motor discussions for racing.

We are doing our best to play nice and support the racing community where ever we can, but I gotta say the left hander group is a little left wing as well.

Tekin Prez


From the BRL standpoint

Other than the Open Modified class we are NOT interested in adding any other brands of motors. We are perfectly happy with the quality, performance, longevity, and support provided by Novak. We look forward to continuing this relationship for years to come.

From the BRL standpoint

Other than the Open Modified class we are NOT interested in adding any other brands of motors. We are perfectly happy with the quality, performance, longevity, and support provided by Novak. We look forward to continuing this relationship for years to come.

Well I guess that answers that!

I am not sure if I am offended, insulted or really care. I am dissappointed.

Its your world, rule as you please.

Tekin Prez

From the BRL standpoint

Other than the Open Modified class we are NOT interested in adding any other brands of motors. We are perfectly happy with the quality, performance, longevity, and support provided by Novak. We look forward to continuing this relationship for years to come.



and we the consumer,brl racers thank you for this ruling.not real interested in the motor of the week or motor manufacture of the week.i myself like only being able to run one motor and dont care who makes that motor as long as it performs equal and NOVAK has done a great job one and making the BRL what it is.is it NOVAKs fault it took SOOOOOOOOOO long for tekin to come out with there BL stuff that they are behind?

Well Novaktwo I guess you should release that 21.5.. and send some more free shirts!

Sorry to distract your thread, it was not my intention to force a final decision from the BRL. I am disappointed we do not even get the chance to be considered. We really have tried to play nice and think competition is healthy for the struggling RC race scene. Why would they want additional sponsorship money, promo items, promotion efforts, support and exposure at a national level? This is just for fun right?

Funny thing is I thought you actually had to drive these cars and know something about setup. I did not realize it was just a motor race.

As an RC supporter I think they are missing the big picture. Granted there are successful IROC style leagues, but where Chevy, Ford, Dodge compete is where the action is.

Is there really no chance that we can make a motor that performs the same? Why would we try and sneak something in and screw everyone including our drivers that count on us? If it is not fair, so be it. To not even consider us is just rude and narrow minded. We have spent a considerable amount of time making sure they are the same, and now in an obscure thread the BRL makes its decision without any direct discussions or even seeing a motor sample from us. Neato….

We will find another party with a little broader view of the world. I predict Novak wins the Brushless classes of the BRL league and they are willing to fork over lots of goodies and cash for the right to say that. Go Big Orange, first and last in every race!

Tekin Prez

Just curious, Mr. Campbell, what is the point of making the exact same product as someone else? Is the margin on these things so high that you are doing it just for the money? (Note: I am not against Tekin - I have lots of Tekin equipment and I am very happy with it.)

Hardly, but if it really mattered enough who won that anyone paid attention we might sell a few products to people that look up to these folks. It is no secret we all promote to sell products and make money. A few of us actually enjoy it and look forward to making friends as well.

They will never sell enough units to pay the bills on this group and winning means nothing when you are racing yourself. Just the cost of the stickers for the 21.5 is of concern it appears. Kinda tells you what you are worth in the cold and real world of business. Dinner for 4….

The most successful and perhaps profitable RC car brushless company in the world sells nothing that is race legal anywhere. Puts it in perspective doesn’t it?

Tekin Prez

Well Novaktwo I guess you should release that 21.5.. and send some more free shirts!

Sorry to distract your thread, it was not my intention to force a final decision from the BRL. I am disappointed we do not even get the chance to be considered. We really have tried to play nice and think competition is healthy for the struggling RC race scene. Why would they want additional sponsorship money, promo items, promotion efforts, support and exposure at a national level? This is just for fun right?

Funny thing is I thought you actually had to drive these cars and know something about setup. I did not realize it was just a motor race.

As an RC supporter I think they are missing the big picture. Granted there are successful IROC style leagues, but where Chevy, Ford, Dodge compete is where the action is.

Is there really no chance that we can make a motor that performs the same? Why would we try and sneak something in and screw everyone including our drivers that count on us? If it is not fair, so be it. To not even consider us is just rude and ignorant. We have spent a considerable amount of time making sure they are the same, and now in an obscure thread the BRL makes its decision without any direct discussions or even seeing a motor sample from us. Neato….

We will find another party with a little broader view of the world. I predict Novak wins the Brushless classes of the BRL league and they are willing to fork over lots of goodies and cash for the right to say that. Go Big Orange, first and last in every race!

Tekin Prez

Honestly you should really stop posting because all you are doing is embarrassing yourself and your company.

For the record you did not force any decision. It was made public a long time ago and posted several times on various threads in this forum. We are happy with our relationship with Novak and have no interest in making a change.


You probably won’t believe it but I have nothing personal against you or your company. I should have for the way some (not all) of your less than reputable team guys have attacked me on various threads over the last year, but I don’t. (Little tip if you want to gain some respect in the oval world you need to find more guys like the Salves brothers or Phil Marabella and get rid of some of your club race heros or ones that have rather sorted reputations)

To put is simply the formula we have now works and the racers that support the series are happy with it. I do not see any benefit in adding another manufacturer to the mix.

BTW: All though greatly appreciated I don’t choose to work with Novak because of the monetary or product donations they provide. I choose to work with them because they are the industry leader in R/C electronics and understand how to service and support their customers in a friendly and professional manner. Something you might think about.

Keep working who knows one day you might be a distant number two.

BRL Prez

BTW: All though greatly appreciated I don’t choose to work with Novak because of the monetary or product donations they provide. I choose to work with them because they are the industry leader in R/C electronics and understand how to service and support their customers in a friendly and professional manner. Something you might think about.

Keep working who knows one day you might be a distant number two.

BRL Prez
AMEN!

We have done nothing but try to satisfy your requirements with a significant investment in time and money and have been denied before even reaching the game for absolutely no good reason.

Sorry we have some rogue drivers, we check up on them as best we can. The oval crowd does appear to be outspoken and I suspect rowdy.

I assure you I am not embarrassed by anything I have said, nor will I lose any sleep over this waste of my time. At least now we know where everyone stands and we can concentrate our efforts on other areas.

Sometimes I really hate forums. All I wanted to do was tell a few interested people we were going to offer comparable motors to the Novaks and I get a full blow from the mighty BRL.

Well Hank can you blame me for not visiting very often? Its a mine field no matter what you do......

Jim Campbell

Tekin, since castle came out with the max system more people are switching over to the sensorless systems.Especially in the off road and dirt oval world. I look forward to using your new motors (just because there not novak, yuck!!). If they are near as durable as the mini-rage esc and motors you guys will be more than welcome in the dirt off road world.I also refuse to run any series where manufacturer specific products are mandatory.I will not use a product that I dont like . especially when they are over priced just because the holy ROAR says that's the only legal brushless system. They know they have you over a barrell so they will squeek every last penny they can out of your wallet.

I'm really sad that this thread went the way of MOST threads on RCTech.

HOBBYTALK is generally a place things are a little more calmly discussed.

The topic of this thread is simply about whether or not NOVAK should/will go ahead and produce their 21.5 motor for our Spec Lipo racing class.

This class is NOT a class that will be picked up by the BRL most likely since it will be a LIPO based class. Nor it is thought that this class will be all that big - (HA, I predict it WILL be the LARGEST OVAL CLASS in '09) Not only that - but I truely believe the 21.5/LIPO or 6 cell class can be the BIGGEST Class in TOURING and OFFROAD Racing, because it will put speeds back to where they were back in the heyday of RCRacing...and will provide a SPEED that More 'entry level' racers can Enjoy and learn to actually race.

all that aside, I , as a RC "OUTSIDER" other than promoting the little series I promote...don't know really anybody in this industry. I struggle every year to put on a FUN series and take a lot of crap over rules and perceived CHEATING...and many other issues.

I don't do this for MONEY/PROFIT or a LIVING. Our series usually goes into the RED financially every year..and when it's in the RED it means it's coming out of MY pocket to provide a race series for MY Friends and Fellow racers to enjoy. Therefore when I make a decision on things run in MY series...I have total control on what I want to see.

So, WHAT IS IT that I want to see? I want to see GOOD RACING - A good SHOW - Entertainment that is fun to WATCH - Fun to Participate in - and Affordable for guys on a limited budget to take part in

I don't want MY events to be NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS

I don't want MY events to draw racers from Florida, North Carolina, Ohio, New York

I DO want MY events to draw as many racers from the South Western United States as possible...LOCALS to the region...because it's a REGIONAL series.

My reasons for wanting "ONE MFG." in Motor and Battery come from knowing that will make GOOD RACING.

You have choices in:

TIRES
CHASSIS
BODIES
RADIOS
and several other hop up parts.

Batteries have been a HOT BUTTON issue for many years, and something needs to control them.

Motors hadn't been quite as HOT BUTTON of an issue(until the 19t KISBEY deal) but there was too much GRAY area. With Brushless there just isn't enough "industry standards" set up, and the only way to control things at this time...I feel is to be very limiting (for SOME classes)

The premise is pretty simple...

HERE'S a set of RULES - If you want to race at THIS location - READ THE RULES and Race accordingly.

IF you don't like the RULES - go to the NEXT Track - and run by THEIR RULES...or BUILD YOUR OWN TRACK/CLUB/SERIES,etc.

(This worked for the SNOWBIRDS...it's working for the IIC...it's working for the BRL)

420TECH - your comments don't have any place in this thread - it's not about ROAR...they have NOTHING to do w/ this motor, and/or class. It's not about NOVAK doing anything except building US (a group who has asked for it) a MOTOR. You don't like NOVAK? Don't run it~ Run a class where you can run the product you want to RUN...(Where ever it's offered)

Well said SWTour, ... can't think of a nice thing to add...

i think tekin needs to start their own series so they can have it there way.

Agreed this was just a motor discussion. Review my initial posts and actually read them. All I said was that we were going to offer comparable motors. I never mentioned any series race or rules of any kind or showed any attitude. The BRL showed up and made it clear that we are not welcome now or later with a fairly in your face tone. Why? It was not a BRL discussion and no one asked. They are not the only market or forum members that are interested. Why throw mud right out of the gate? We understand it is too late for this season and our motors would not be allowed. We are surprised to see that we are outlawed for life and in fact seem to be making enemies for even trying.

We asked for nothing but the chance to be considered. We made the investment and took the time to make sure we had a comparable product that even plugs right into the Novak controller or any other sensored controller. We deleted the adjustable timing setting in our ESC after seeing some BRL comments on the issue. We have made an honest effort to do exactly what you wanted.

Sonny I think you posted a few times that you had not had a chance to see our motor and would reserve judgment until. A politically correct way to handle things even if you did intend to ulitmately deny us. Why the change, firm stance and unfriendly attitude all the sudden. I can understand that our drivers may have ruffled your feathers. I had heard about it, but did not really paid any attention figuring we could talk when the motors were ready.

Somehow this all turns into that we do not treat our customers with a professional and friendly attitude. I get excused with an Amen and some cheap shots about a distant second. How did we become the villain just because some of you can not fathom that we may be able to build an equal motor and the extra support might step up your series to an even higher level of exposure.

I am obviously annoyed at this point and have annoyed a few of you somehow. In the future we would appreciate it if you would let us discuss our motors with those that are interested without reference to the BRL since it will likely take the thread south everytime. I accept the decision and do not need to revisit it. It is time to move on.

Enjoy your series and good luck.

Tekin Prez