Changing the cell count will not solve anything for me. This change will just make my packs look odd (cell count and flip/flopped solder tabs). Going to 5 cells may be ROAR’s way of keeping LiPo's out with the voltage difference being greater. Maybe the speeds are just too high for new racers. Its ROAR choice, but here is my opinion.

I believe the cell type needs to be changed then maybe the motors. The power density is getting greater each day for both motors and batteries. I have heard talks of SC' NiMH may never cross 5000 or 5500 in capacity, but still that is just too much juice to be playing with for 5 min. Our hobby has gone from 1200 NiCD's to 4500 NiMH's!!! More than 3 times the power since we started race. Now add in brushless motors to the increased power supply. Brushless motors are more efficient, this means the increased power capacity really just got expanded again to allow for a hotter motor combo than ever thought of 15 years ago.

If the goal is to reduce speeds and maybe attract new racers, then dropping the voltage will do. But I feel the capacity is still too high and teaches bad habits. New racers should learn to pace themselves and drive a smooth line. Turn-N-Burn seems to what we are teaching.

My solution would be 4/5 SC’s Cells @ 7.2V to reduce capacity and make the new racers aware that track has more than straight-aways. I would think it would be hard for a 4/5 Cell to ever topple over the 4000mAh mark. Right now 4/5's are in the 2200 ~ 2500mAh range and rated at 40amps a perfect combo for 7.2V packs and 5min racing in Sedan.

For 1/12th racing. Why not switch over to 2/3A @ 7.2V batteries and 370 or 480 motors? I know chassis and motor pods would have to be redesigned, but with this change 1/12 can become the new budget class that is LiPo ready as the motors and gears would be for 7.2V. Even with the redesign, car kits will cost the same but the savings will be in the batteries and ESC’s. To the racers, the smaller cells would cost about 1/2 as much and the ESC’s the same since the rated currents can be lower. With a smaller brushless motor, a stock equivalent motor would have to have a higher KV(RPM rating) which will be closer to the rpm/torque characteristics of 540 Stock brushed motor.

If we all take an open minded view to why ROAR may want to reduce the cell count, then maybe members can develop solutions.

Just my 2 cents.

no one dissagrees? wow!

...I don't know about agreeing or disagreeing

I thought years ago that the 2/3rds cells could be the way to go in keeping the MAH rating under control.

Although you hear about the "BATTERY WARS" - it's THOSE times that actually produced some of the BEST racing because you COULD dump...where now-a-days if you dump...man are you screwed up.

When you have a battery pack that has enough energy to run 8 1/2 - 9 minute races, but you are only using 50-60% of that battery...instead of the "BATTERY WAR" being about Run Time - it became a WAR of "VOLTAGE" (Same Battle - different War)

It still ends up being about the guys who can have NEW batteries for EVERY RACE vs. the guys who CAN'T.

I actually thought about trying a pack of 2200 mah "MINI" batteries like for the 18t's in my 1/12th scale car. (Wow would THOSE be light)

Some will say "Don't Mess with what's NOT broken" where others will say "You CAN'T stop NEW technology" Well, we can't have it both ways...

The future is LIPO/BRUSHLESS whether we like it or not... at least for a year or two...they WHO KNOWS~

Some are doing some LIPO testing in the 1/12th scale using a SINGLE Cell LIPO @ 3.7 volts w/ a 3.5 B/L motor...and it sounds like they've found something that works pretty good. A Single Cell lipo with one of the smaller B/L motors could be interesting too (but I'm not sure if anyone makes a sensored one or not) but even w/o it being sensored...you might be able to get away with in a 1/12th scale car using the MINI B/L ESC with a smaller than 540 type B/L motor...and have an awesome power range, yet be really light weight...who knows.

As far as carrying what ROAR does - ROAR seems to affect so very FEW racers these days...and even if YOUR club is ROAR sanctioned and insured, for LOCAL events you still have full control of the rules that are best suited for YOUR Track/Club needs.

How many HOOPS must we jump through....5cell man no way.....Why cant we just run the Lipos? The cost involved to be able to remain competitve w/NIMh is insane in comparison w/ the cost of lipo....11 years ago this is what caused me to leave R/c I was running oval and it seemed we went from 1100NIcd to 2000 in a matter of minutes and it got to be to exspensive....Now I need a 1000 virgin cells and a35 matcher and printer just to get good numbers and decent packs and on top of that I need to lop a cell off all my exsisting packs to comply....Man B/S I will just buy some max amp lipos or orions and just race like it used to be......

some oval guys are saying there is even a difference between fresh lipos and 2 month old lipos, so be careful it aint always greener....

Oval guys are like that though Ken. They charge at 30 amps to gain that little punch. On & Off-road racing will show little difference. That .01v isn't as noticable when your chassis is working better than the next guys. Stop trying to cause trouble....

Ben

some oval guys are saying there is even a difference between fresh lipos and 2 month old lipos

Some OVAL racers say ANYTHING to discourage people...but ask OVAL Racers who are actually RUNNING Lipo and/or have been testing them. If they are the ones racing, using the ORION/PEAK style 3200's...I think you will hear totally the opposite.

They are showing soooo much consistancy MOST of the NiMh guys who have tried very hard to make the LIPO issue get ugly - are finding these things are THE MOST consistant battery they have EVER seen.

Try this with a NIMH pack. Charge and Run it 9 - 10 times in a 7-8 hour and see how much VOLTAGE change you get. (One of our guys did this - plus a couple BENCH Cycles and found .01 to .02 volts in variance TOTAL from all the runs on 2 - 3200 LIPOS) He did this with a Fresh BRAND NEW pack - AND a pack that was over a year old, that has been run hard for the year...

He still can't believe it...

I love the 3200 pack, i dont even think about batteries anymore

I love the 3200 pack, i dont even think about batteries anymore


Right :thumbsup:

A lot of what gets said I believe is a smoke screen. When you take away someones deep pocket battery advantage, it's the "game" that becomes ever more important. The guy that's always fast and always a popular guy can get anybody to believe anything he wants around a race track. Especially the crowd with only a few years racing under them. I have the 3200 Peak batteries and love them. I'm bummed I have to buy batteries for 12 scale, but 12 scale is so much fun it's worth it.

Ben

I am in favor of the 4/5 SC's for sedan, 2/3 A's for 1/12.

My concern is, are we heading to a super pro spec class, brushless motors, lipo batteries, rubber tires, thats half the fun of a hobby is tuning and tinkering.

I agree with the comments about new batteries every year and I like the ease of maintanence of brushless but when it is all said and done I don't spend all the money I earn in over time just to buy a car batteries and motor and set it down to see how fast I can go. I enjoy the HOBBY side of it, motor work battery cycling shock rebuilding etc...as well and I think that may be where we fail to KEEP the new guys.

The art is fading and few newbies bother to learn it when they can buy more speed than they can handle, and quickly lose interest in replacing broken parts every run.

Perhaps the governing bodies should put a freeze or 2 to 3 year limit on frequency of new motor / battery approval. And tracks should consider the speed of classes and consier the appropriateness to beginners

I like those points you make. The problem with the freeze though, your letting a governing body keep their thumb on you. Obviously technology won't freeze for two or three years. I enjoy my Lipo batteries, but it really sucks ROAR won't let me use them. We all play along like we should, but imagine the gains we make in a couple years across the board, not just the lipo thing. You try holding all that back and does ROAR have a chance to survive?

I hope to see how our GT2 class help slow some people down. I hope it can help get people committed to racing. Slower generally is faster AND more reliable. The Ricky Bobby syndrome is tough to beat out of people.

Ben

Miller & Sportpack good points as usuall....But can there really be a common ground in limiting exspense and technology, I dont think so.... However Lipo I think would bring about new racers the same way B/L has.....The problem will be in getting guys to run lipos and 21.5 motor(not out yet) or the 17.5 to slow it down and this will limit exspense or at least there will only be a high initial cost....I also enjoy the tinkering now that I am understanding it more and I must say I have gained a lot of respect for onroad since venturing away from oval.....My main concern is the crap they are selling us for cells these days and where will it end Lipo's,B/L whats next?.....Maybe we should revolt and turn everything into a spec class limit batts to 1600mah stick packs like the trinity T-Spec class.......How many guys remember when they hit 1600 and you were like WOW and now were at 4200,4500 and you know 5000 is around the corner.........Thats Technology I guess.....I vote for Lipos.......I think this will put the focus where it should be as I have learned(thanks Millertime) which is on the chassis and tires....I do not think that this is going to happen overnight and I will miss Nimh batt maintenice but I think its good for the hobby.....My 2cents.....

I think On-Road (and off-road for that matter) should move to 4 cell. It would bring in a lot more people, as the oval crowd could join in the fun without buying new packs. You clearly dont need the voltage of a 5 or 6 cell pack. With brushless coming in 4 cells would work great for your crowd (I say your crowd, because I race mostly oval). With our hobby really hurting in all areas I think we need a more unified approch to racing in general. Lipo's are not the answer right now. I hope the technology is there in a few years, but it just doesn't seem to be right for us now. So go with what works. 4200's 4 cells, and a brushless motor. You could probably run a brushed motor with it too and not really see that much diff. Just my 2 cents.

Joel White

J-Dub......Not sure that 4cell would bring oval racers to onroad and I am not sure how 4 cell would hold up to 8 minute races.....It does work for 1/12 but 1/10 alot more weight.....It might be worth a shot cause it would lessen the batt cost a little 12cells 3 packs....I dont know I am new to onroad.....Maybe some of these other guys will chime in on this......

I like my Lipo brushless stock TC. We go fast together.
If you want a real beginner TC class, what about a lipo (for long term cost savings) and a true silver can stock motor? Slower and consistent and great for learning while still being a competetive class. I think some verteran racers would enjoy a class like that sometimes.

Lipo/Mini with TCS rules would be a blast too, but I digress....

Ben

Sport Pack, going fast with a 7.4V LiPo or 7.2V NiMH is great, even for racing. What I feel is that maybe when to use that speed should be better choosen. If using 4/5 SC 2200mAh batteries in a 7.2V pack or a 3000 LiPo , sure you will have the volts to turn a fast speed. But going fast can cost you with smaller capacity packs. If you are all over the throttle when you shouldn't be, you won't make the finish line.

In a way, this could be a ticket for new racers. If they have problems making 5min, they will naturally gear down. As they start driving cleaner lines they maintain more corner speed and over time gear up. Right now, new racers just pop on the biggest set of dentures (gears) that the hot shoes are running and expecting to be as good.

The problem we're having to deal with now is ego. Newbies want the best equiptment because they think they can run with the fast guys. Nobody likes being humble anymore. Everyone wants something without working for it. I started 3 years ago. Didn't have the best stuff, but was lucky to realize that it wasn't my speed controls fault I crashed all the time. A new GTX wasn't going to keep me off the boards. As I got better the equiptment followed. I'm far from the top teir still, but I've made myself a legitimate and hopefully respected contender. I'm lucky to have a great self sense of humor, growing pains can be pretty severe at times. If we could get some new guys to have some humility and a little grit, I agree that dropping the voltage would help. But can we convince them to do it?

Ben

..but I've made myself a legitimate and hopefully respected contender.

The pink mini does something for your level of respect :cry:

Perhaps the governing bodies should put a freeze or 2 to 3 year limit on frequency of new motor / battery approval. And tracks should consider the speed of classes and consier the appropriateness to beginners


A few things that were tried several years ago when I was working for NORRCA was "Freezing" rules and equipment.

Problem is too often we are dictated to by MFG's plans...and they don't really care about WHAT RULES are - if THEY Build it - Racers refuse to show up and race if they can't use what THEIR SPONSORS tell them to use...so the entry numbers DIE and the races STOP.

When we took OVAL to 4 cell - we tried to bring On-Road 1/10th Scale Pan Cars with us. (This class was DEAD and TC's were taking off) But the limited number of guys who were still running the old Pan Cars did NOT want to slow down - because THEY could drive those cars well. )

We tested them w/ 4 cell and they were AWESOME to drive - easy to handle - and FASTER than a 6 cell STOCK TC. Racing couldn't get much more affordable than a 4 cell Pan Car - and running 8 minutes was NO problem (and we tested w/ 2000 cells.)

We tested TC's w/ 4 cell a few years later, but mainly 4 cell MOD cars. With hopes to increase MODIFIED racing - by making them a little easier to drive on the lower voltage...a lot of Motor builders were thinking that might be a way for them to get back to building MORE mod motors again.... MOST PEOPLE would NOT stand for it - even though MOST wouldn't even TRY it...instead the chose to BASH the idea...and try "Proving" it wouldn't work by running a 4 cell STOCK TC with 6 cell gearing...and showing how SLOW it ran.

It's easy to manipulte test results and numbers...and even easier to deceive people or just confuse them into buying into negative HYPE.

If you compare todays TC's with the TC's from several years ago - todays are MUCH faster... Mainly because of drive train efficiency and better setups. (and a WHOLE lot better tires, motors and batteries)

This, I feel is why some are calling for the 4 cell or 5 cell batteries...

Sadly, SOME drivers feel it's MORE important to GO really fast - instead of promoting GOOD racing.

SWTOUR, would you be infavor of 6cell 2/3A and 370/480 motors in 1/12? The smaller motors mean lower "no load" current which means the little cells may last longer.

I have been playing with the idea of a 6cell 2/3A 1/12th pan car and a 4cell 4/5 SC 1/12 pan car. I may build one of each since it would offer more options for better CG. Should only take about 2 hours on a scroll saw to cut the .093 G10. The motor plate, well I'm SOL with out any 6mm plate aluminum to cut a right side motor pod

Only bad thing about using smaller batteries and better CG would be that with a "stock" motor the power to weight ratio will be higher for faster racing.

to be a wide spread succes both classes should use the same type of cell

Its funny, some people cant understand how going slower can = faster lap times.Set up for the track your running on and you cant go wrong. I have actually done better running a stock motor in a mod class on a short track than those more worried about doing mach. 1 down the straights.going fast doesnt = fast lap times if you are so fast you cant hold a line in the corners.There is such a thing as too much motor depending on the track.

That's why I plan to run a 13.5 Pro in the premeir 4300 class this winter. I figure I was only a lap to lap and a half off of being solid in the A last year. A couple mistakes less over 7 minutes should put me pretty close. I still need plenty of practice to get me where I need to be, but I'm hoping the 13.5 will help me with the quality of laps. When quality goes up, quantity should follow.

Ben

trailranger,

The biggest obsticle is creating something (2/3rd A's, 4/5 C's, etc.) that can be used in more than one market.

Weird rules may work out ok for some 'local' club type events...but if it's too weird it will never play to a national audience.

(For instance, I always thought DIRT SPRINT CARS should use 4/5th "C's" and run short SPRINT races. Make them as LIGHT as possible (Now LIPO would work even better)

On the DIRT = SPRINT cars had some of the Heaviest Rules..but in 'ReAL RaCING' sprints were the lightest.... made NO sense to me.

Is 6cell 13.5 to fast.....I think that this is a quality class as stock has always been. I think 4cell might be a good class but I dont think your going to get the guys that have been doing it awhle to change however 1/12 guys my be all in favor....Still think Lipo might be the answer in the long run.....Just wont happen overnight.....How many guys on this thread would consider running 4 cell ? How different is that from 5cell really?

4 cell brushless would be an awesome class! Be it a 13.5 'stock' class or full blown mod. The li-po situation is a little bit different however. I agree that with todays ni-mh cells there is really no need for li-pos in your standard 5 min. race.4500 mah is a whoe lot of run time.Even with a mild mod it is posible to squeek out 2 full 5min. qualifiers on a single charge and NOT overdischarge the batteries. Maybe the first li-po class should be a endurance type of race. like a 15 min. race on oval or something along that lines, something where all that run time is waranted.As for the governing bodies, I wouldnt expect any big changes fellas, they still dont want to recognize forms of racing that have been around for years like 1/18 scale, and micro-scale racing like 1/24 mini-z.I mean Novak has had brushless stuff on the shelf for a long time before it was ever released.It wasnt because it wasnt ready for production. it was because of the fact that if you cant use it to race with who would they market it towards. Your average basher wouldnt spend 250- 300 dollars on a brushless set-up, so it wouldnt have made sense to release the system before the governing bodies were ready to accept them so racers could buy the systems.Li-po's are in the same boat. It is technology ahead of the current rulebook. Granted that with their growing popularity it will be very hard to ignore for much longer.I would expect roar to ok them for Mod class racing WAY before they give them the thumbs up for stock class racing.all I have to say is racing today is way different when you consider that a few years back(15+) gearing would make or break you because you only had 1200mah batteries to choose from either sce, or sc's. scary when you consider the mini 2/3a cells are pushing 1500 mah now.

I think people that vote 5 cell over lipo have either 1. Not used lipo or 2. Don't mind spending a lot of money on NiMH. I understand slower is better for a lot of people. I believe motor restrictions are easier to enforce. A lot of people will rather just buy a motor and race, versus throwing away or chopping up a bunch of batteries they already have. Lipos are so much more consistent over the entire season, I just don't get why people don't try them. I know, it's that one big race you MIGHT attend this year.....

Ben

Sportpak what do you think of 4cell t/c B/L?

Never tried it. 5 cell wasn't bad a couple times I tried it. I had an IB cell die last year. Realized it right before the race when the voltage sucked. Ran it anyways and I duplicated my best qualifier of the night. Slower is fast for most people. Since, I've found great pleasure in Lipo. I don't know if I'd trade what I know now and go back to sub-c TC racing. If my club put a lifetime ban on Lipo, I'd run what I had to, but until then suckers, I'm running Lipo.

Ben

I like the idea of Lipos...I just think it is a few years away.....But I would due it right now if all tracks would allow it to be ran w/everyone else.....I mean right now tracks have brushed stock,B/L stock and then what B/L lipo stock....Myself I am enjoying 8min heats w/6cell t/c onroad I am just frustrated w/the quality of cell these days.
I just purchased some wc IBs a week ago that were recently shipped to the store and both have 2 crap cells thats what pisses me off....

People should start realizing that a Lipo battery peaks at 8.37-8.4v. No more, ever. This is less then a decent 4200 battery. A great 4200, is a better battery all day long. More punch and better voltage 85% of the race. If we make minimum weight, what is to fear? I choose to sacrifice a minimal amount of voltage, to have a battery that will end the season with the same performance I started the season. The dollar mileage is much better.

Ben

I like the idea of Lipos...I just think it is a few years away.........

Why do you think it is a few years away??? And don't come with the safety excuse unless you can show ONE orion went off on somebody you know or even just heard about...

I think it is a few years off simply because it does not have a mass appeal. I've seen several guys including sportpak run them, frankly I just don't want to deal with it, and they still don't have a 4-cell version. Aside from the repeated runs on them I don't see an advatage as long as everyone meets the same weight. The guys are figuring you'll still need 2 packs, Thats not much less than I spent on 6 cells packs last year?

I'm not dissing the li-po (just sportpak's :) ) i just don't see the no-brainer philosophy as in say a 4300 B/L over a 19t for T/C..

xrayrc.....I think Miller hit the nail on the head.....LiPos are the future most likely but right now there arent alot of guys doin it around here.....

6cell and 4-cell have been the standard for soo long that most people will scoff at ideas like 5-cell just because its not the norm. Not saying its not a good idea, Just that the 'standard' has been there for so long that it would mean either you build new packs, or re-build your current packs.Either of which = time and money for most people, especially people who use their packs for double duty(packs that will fit more than 1 car)And with the li-pos Its like miller said until they really catch on as THE battery of choice people will stick with the standard. Remember when cd's first came out, alot of people didnt switch over until the majority of their cassette tapes wore out, same principal here.the old Why switch until its a necessity mentallity.

I just wish people would try them. People have all these opinions without trying them. 4 cell is it's own thing, probably always will be. People have hundreds of dollars to buy a bunch of batteries, 15% of those cells need replaced. Not everybody has a battery contract or a bunch of cash to spend. It boggles my mind more people wouldn't be a little interested in trying them. Interesting......and the people that have switched think their the hottest thing since the microwave oven....crazy.

Ben

Oh,totally agree sport pack.Most people are running at tracks that wont allow them.If the tracks i run at allowed them I would switch over in a chinese second! And I dont mean just in mod class with brushless motors. Even stock racers can benefit from li-po technology.Most people dont want to spend the money to have lipo for their mod car and NiMh for their stock car, so they just stick with what they have.I for one am just waiting for the governing bodies to approve them , and I will switch just because as long as you take care of them right lipos are one less weak link in the drivetrain.I do stress the as long as you take care of them right portion.I know guys that dont even take care of the nimh batteries they have right. The same guys look at me silly when I pull out the same 3300's I have ran for 3 seasons now.I have had them ask how I get my batteries to last soo long cuz theirs are trashed after a season of racing.The answer is always the same; Take care of your stuff and it will take care of you, Treat your stuff like crap and it will turn to crap.

and if you get 3 season's out of your 3300's why bother with lipo ????

I wouldn't bother with lipo if 4200s held up like 3300s. Heck, the 3800s were pretty good batteries. Miller Time is a hater because he is running a battery matching biz out of his basement. Speaking of which, how's my batteries coming? :hat:

Ben

Yeah, I think my next order will have a LiPo pack for my Xray. Had to give up racing for a little bit and the parking lot always seems empty when I get off work.

I can't wait for a 7.4V hard cases Lipo for 1/12 cars. Wold be sweet placing that baby in my CRC 3.2 or Darkside MX2

I wouldn't bother with lipo if 4200s held up like 3300s. Heck, the 3800s were pretty good batteries. Ben

Now were getting to the root of the issue, bottom line is the crappy quality of IB4200's !! :cry: Has the industry finally maxed out the Sub-c cell to the point of instability, or are the EP cells as stable as the 3800's in which case Ben can flea bay the Lipo.

Miller Time is a hater because he is running a battery matching biz out of his basement.
Ben

Never said I hated them, only questioning the need/valididy of switching, especially since I tend to run 2 or 3 or ? classes on the same day, and I AM concerned with the rules for sanctioned events, no need setting up for LiPo if I can't use them when it counts.

Speaking of which, how's my batteries coming? :hat:
Ben

Batteries ? what batteries....

As soon as I figure out how to wad them up into a roll with a rubber band around the....

Right now I'm with miller, racing 2 or 3 different classes in a day would mean quite a few li-po packs for me, not to mention the subject of legality. Running clubraces with them would be fine, but until sanctioning bodies approve them there are a whole lot of racers out there in the same position as Miller Time and myself. The iffy nature of the larger capacity nimh cells is exactly why I have just stuck with the 3300 cells for the time being, I am waiting to see if the manufacturers will admit defeat , and start producing more durable cells instead of going for max capacity.And were not just talking about sub- c size cells. I tried some intellect 1400 mah 2/3A cells in my mini this spring and was impressed, at first.Then out of a 6 cell pack I had 2 cells go bad within 20-25 cycles, so I tried some ELITE 1500 cells from cheap battery packs .com and they have held up nice, Consistant voltage, and seem to be pretty durable. Heck my 11 year old even over discharged one pack by leaving it plugged into his brushless speedo overnight and within a couple cycles it was almost back to normall.

I wouldn't bother with lipo if 4200s held up like 3300s. Heck, the 3800s were pretty good batteries. Miller Time is a hater because he is running a battery matching biz out of his basement. Speaking of which, how's my batteries coming? :hat:

Benhttp://www.rctech.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=262980&d=1188798972

WOW!!! I hope it wasnt in your car when that happened, and that no-one was hurt!!

Even after building new packs in attemp to aviod the bad cell curse I always end up with 1 dead cell the first night out with 3 or 4 new 4200packs. I can normmaly use my DPD to find the cell and take it out. After a while I end up with two 4 cell packs that are consistant from three 6cell packs. I may just have to dust off my 3300's. I have 6 packs in in a case doing nothing since I bought my first set of 3800's thinking I would have enough volts to lap the field in 1 min. Wrong...out of the 50+ cells I have bought in the last two years, I would think 20 of them ended up at RadioShack for recycle. At $8 a cell it adds up. I would prefer my packs to age gracefully to the point you didn't know you were losing performance. I hate putting a thought-to-be good pack in my 1/12th car and only making 6min of the 8min race. And sure enough once I place the pack on my DPD I have a cell with bogus IR and very little volts and capacity. I charge at 5 amps, ZeroPeak, max 110% capacity, so it has to be the cells mostly to blame, and me partly.

Out of curiosity, have you tried the EP cells, I've seen exactly what you mentioned with IB.
Lately I've been mesing with the East Power (red/black) 4200, ROAR legal and the seem very stable.

I really hope that the EP cells can get us out of this battery funk. I'm running them this winter in my 12 scale. I'm pretty good about following good battery maintenance. In TC I'm running Lipo forever because I can, and basically have committed to TC in a club racing atmosphere. If I can make a big race this year I'll race 12 scale or my Mini, depending on the event.

Ben