Can you avance the timing in all of novak's brushless motors?
What are the advantages or disadvantages?

there is a rpm change, I haven't seen any solid 'dyno' data yet, but I'd bet it changes the torque a bit too.

I know a couple guys who found two different motors ran slightly different speeds out of the box, but geared the same rollout - they found their timing was not the same on both motors...and once they set the slower motor to the setting of the quicker motor...they both ran the same.

With that being said, the slower motor may have just needed a little different ratio to hit the sweet spot, but now this particular racer sets all his timing to this one spot and leaves it along for consistency. (Better to KNOW and LEARN how to get the most - then mess with things and screw yourself up)

I have done tons of dyno testing with the 10.5 novak brushless on a CE turbo45 dyno.

Testing at 5.00volts.

From the lowest to the highest timing, there is about a 1,700 rpm diff.
The eff stays the same.
The power curve stays the same. Torque is the one thing that changes, quite a bit. With that being said, on track performace does not show this. Not in oval anyhow. With as much torque as these motors put out, I think the extra you get from turning the timing down is not helping a whole lot.
From motor to motor, the timing points are the same and the rpm have been within around 52 points of each other. An example being 17,002 as compared to 16,987.
So for oval racing, my practice has been to turn the timing up and gear for it.

how about the 13.5 motors? still turn the timing all the way up? also what if your timing ring doesnt seem to move at all? its stuck in some way? is that a defect? i know of one guys motor right out of the package that is stuck in that way. no matter what he does the ring wont budge either way! should he contact novak for a replacement? or is this normal.

Well, that all depends on where the timing is currently at. They come all different ways from Novak. Sometimes they are all the way up, sometimes all the way down, sometimes in the middle. If it is in fact turned down and will not move, that is odd. Some are tight and you have to work the rings loose. I can not speak for Novak on this but it is up in the air as if they would replace the motor not due. It is safe to say Novak did not design the motor with the intention of have people adjusting timing. The reason it does adjust is because the the design. The wire wraps have to solder to the top ring. In order to do that holes needed to be cut in the plastic ring. The holes in the plastic ring are what allows us to move the timing a touch.
Again, this is just my view on all this. I could be WAY off base.

Jammie, have you seen big difference's from one motor to another when dyno'ed? Also, did the difference show on the track? This seems to be a concern for a few guys here that are on the fence about making the switch.
Thanks!

What makes the timing stop? Can anything be filed to allow even more timing? My experience is when you advance timing you loose torque - but these motors seem to be all torque driven based on the gear you run and rpm sound - so any timing you can get is great? Just thoughts....

Just and FYI:

I can tell you the reason for the variance in timing on new motors is because each motor for lack of a better term is benched tuned before it leaves the factory to optimize the torque, RPM, and efficiency.

Bob and Adnan explained it to me a while back and showed some photos of how it is done. I’m not an electrical engineer and I did not sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night so I’m not even going to try and explain it but maybe they will chime in.

They feel the motors are set to a peak power to efficiency ratio when they leave the factory. Adnan also went on to explain that when making a timing adjustment it does not work the same as a brushed motor. 1 degree is not 1 degree like we would normally think and can have a much more dramatic effect. Bottom line you can dial the motor out pretty quickly. (That was good enough for me).

Also not to go against my buddy and damb fast racer Mr. Hanson but when asked about dynoing motors Adnan indicated the current popular systems on the market (CE, Fantom) were based on brushed parameters and would not accurately but more importantly consistently measure the power output. He also mentioned the few resistors on each system overheat quickly (1 pull) and skew the readings.

Not trying to sway your opinion one way or another just trying to give you info from the factory.

Thank you Mr. Sonny Brown (My Buddy). That is good stuff to know. I guess if you don't ask you don't know.

Jammie, have you seen big difference's from one motor to another when dyno'ed? Also, did the difference show on the track? This seems to be a concern for a few guys here that are on the fence about making the switch.
Thanks!

Of all the motors I dynoed, they were all the same. On the track they all performed the same. Sonny Hosts the BRL league during the winters. I know guys that were changing rotors every run. It did not make them any faster. Also, I guess I lied a little bit earlier......I know at a few of the events last year I did not run timing all the way up on my motors.. It is just something I normally do. However sometimes I did switch motors to see if it would make a difference, and the timing happend to be different, so I geared up. For instance, I had a pro version of the 10.5 and I also had the ORIGIONAL 4300 with the larger endbell (non-ribbed) with a sintered rotor. They both ran within .006 of each other. And like in any form or racing you have to feel it out. I ended up gearing a tooth and went the same speed as I did with my own motor. So timing does not realy play a role. Just gear for it.

in other words!!!!! stop screwing around with the timming and look for speed in your chassis! and did you also read that new rotors had no effect on speed? WOW!

Great news! :)

Great info guys, I guess I'll leave my timing where it is.

Thanks guys -

I want to thank Jamie and Sonny and other for taking time to address these issues.

I know a lot of success is going on with B/L motors in some areas, but in other areas it's still a hard sell to get guys to cross over...and everytime something NEW comes out some of these guys start to cringe...and have 2nd thoughts.

The better data we can get to these guys and the guys who ARE running this stuff a little less frequent to others...really helps improve the learning curve in a fast way...

THANKS AGAIN.

(Note to Jamie Hanson) Jamie I re-posted some of your comments about the timing issues from here on our series message board (www.southwesttour.com/ovaltalk) because we've had some guys asking these basic questions too.

FYI: Sonny and Jamie are the BEST !!! Sonny Brown IS "Mr. Brushless oval Racing" in my view. Sonny's vision of, dedication to, execution of the BRL series has been nothing short of fantastic. The BRL series here in the midwest (and now branching out to the east and south) will soon start its third season--and it keeps getting bigger and better each year. With great, primary support from NOVAK and BSR (and others), brushless motor racing is where it's happening today in oval racing. Sonny knows his stuff, and he's not shy about sharing his ideas and experience. He is also an outstanding driver in his own right.

Yes, Sonny and Jamie are friends, and I just happen to know a little about Jamie's background and experience. Jamie has been racing oval RC for several years. He has had the very good fortune of learning from and racing with some of the very best drivers and set-up guys here in the state of Michigan. The Michigan drivers started running brushless together from almost day one of Novak's introduction of the SS controller and the 4300 and 5800 motors. Jamie learned the motors and he learned how important chassis set-up was to being fast. Jamie loves to set up RC cars and he loves to race in quick competition. He does pretty well at both. Jamie no longer lives in Michigan, but he still loves RC racing and I suspect that he will be racing Brushless for some long time to come. He is also pretty good at brushed motors and sedans too.

Thanks Jamie! That is what I know too. But, I wanted someone with a good reputation for knowing what he was talking about to say it out loud. LOL

Kat, RIGHT ON! It can be hard to get guy's to believe that the problem isn't the B/L motor, but their setup.

If the timing is set to what Novak deems optimal, I would gather they are right. I had about 4-6 deg. left in mine and it actually went slower no matter which way I went with the rollout. I put it back where it was and knocked .25-.3 off my laps on a 315'ish track. each track may require something different.

It does'nt matter where I gear I still turn the same lap times and the same amount of laps and I know my chassis is good.