The unfortunate thing (or maybe not) about this or any other slot car discussion forum in which I have participated, is that there is a very small group of people who do nearly all the posting. If someone interested in producing anything slot related wanted to go out and seek input, these forums should be the perfect place to go. Unfortunately, with so few posters, no one could possibly make major business decisions based on so little input.
For example, I was reading one of the threads and some guys were saying how much they would like certain pieces of track - big banked curves, large curves, four lane sections, long straights, etc. But how could anyone decide to invest in producing track based on one, two or half a dozen requests?
I have always hoped that I would be able to get back to making more track. But the problem, if money was not an issue, has always been - "What track pieces not now available would be most in demand?". I have my list of what I would do and I'm sure you have yours as well.
The first hurdle would, of course, be which track system the new pieces would be designed to compliment. For HO, it really comes down to Tomy or Tyco/Mattel. Lifelike is not a serious contender due to it's lack of variety. All others are no longer in production or have a very small market share.
I personally eliminate Tomy because they are still apparently willing to produce new track pieces, as evidenced by their introduction of the 18" curve. This has made our mold, and the work we put into it, obsolete. Can't and won't be put in that position again.
So that leaves Tyco/Mattel. I think we can pretty much assume that Mattel isn't going to be doing anything that might actually add value to the slot car line it got from Tyco. They will continue to muddle along making some novelty sets (Battle Slam anyone?) or little useless figure 8s that will bore kids in no time. No chance on them actually doing something useful and intelligent.
So if you want to make new track pieces and do not want to design a new track system (and watch your investment go down the drain), Tyco/Mattel compatible, with any improvements you can make, is the way you have to go. Tomy users will not like that, nor will those clamoring for a four lane track, but it is the only option out there for a track maker that I see as having a reasonable chance of some success in the overall marketplace.
So, back to my original point. How do you go about gathering input on what would sell? And not just sell one of something, you need to sell a lot. After all, that is the driving factor for manufacturing. My list would be as follows:

3 1/2" terminal/jumper track with undertrack connections
- this allows for 7" (2 x 3.5), 9.5" (6 + 3.5) and 10.5" (3 x 3.5) straights
18" 1/8 curve
21" 1/8 curve
21" or 24" straight
3" intersection
24" 1/12 curve (30 degrees)
21" 1/12 curve
18" 1/12 curve
15" 1/12 curve
12" 1/12 curve

Deciding to produce 30 degree turns would be an expensive gamble. Would they sell? How many different sizes would you need to have when they are first introduced? Should you go with 1/16th curves instead so they mesh with the 1/8 curves? Should banked curves come in somewhere? If so, just how many would any one person buy? What is the largest curve really necessary? Is there a really good piece I'm leaving out?
These are the questions I ask. If you ever want to see real innovation and investment in this hobby, you have got to let yourself be heard. Otherwise, no one is going to reach into their wallet. Above all else, whether it's track or bodies or chassis or parts, it is still a business to the guy laying out the money.
Ask yourself - would I lay out $10k, $20k, $50k or more for something 6 people requested? Is the hobby worth my investment?

Thanks...Joe

HO comprises what, around 20% of the Slot hobby
3% goes to 1/24 and another 3 or 4 to 1/43.

If i were thinking of investing 30-50,000.00 in TheSlot carhobby................I think i'd be looking at the numbers..........Where are they AND where are they Headed!!

HO seems to have become MORE the collectors scale with 1/32 becoming the Racers Scale.

I see HO Slots going after this COLLECTOR market...Its ALREADY begun with new releases specifically designed for the collector.

1/32 is after the collector Also, but NOT with ALOT of Serious Collector marketing...at least Not yet.....Oh theres some as there always is in ANY hobby.

Were it me, I would take a serious look at the newer trend of Scenicing tracks......What is needed by slot enthusiasts who are building these Scenic'd tracks.

Perhaps what is needed is SMART TRACK......Track that does somethingto enhance the realism of the home course.

That could be perhaps a Pit Track, one that times fuels and perhaps controls voltage Based on weight of the fuel and Condition of the tires ( # of laps without pitting etc.)

Another might be a Smart track that acts as a TRACK CALL.............It detects an OFF and cuts power to all tracks until reset.

These are just a couple idea's off the top of my head...........Can they be made?

Oh yea........they not only CAN be made, they are overdue to be made......in most cases track is the same as it was in 1960's (digital is an exception)
Analog can take advantage of new technology..........you just need to decide whats needed, gather the resources and JUST do it!! (oversimplification perhaps but you know what I mean :)

Joe,

As I said before, the HO world should be thankful for people like you that stepped forward and tried to make a difference. Unfortunately, your post as well as your previous mentioning of tons of track left tells me you have learned a rather expensive lesson...the boards ain't where it's at in this hobby. Actually, it was a double whammy as you had vendors selling your product at shows, shows who's customers are made up mostly of..... people from the boards.

Without the investment of mainstream media, there is really only one place to start...the tracks. Racing sells racing stuff. Period.

Sadly, what the 'net - coupled with unscrupulous dealer networks - has done is either push brick-n-mortar stores out, or has led them to give up on HO. So, where do you go to market your product? In my opinion, it's gonna take a lot of effort at this point. Again, the JL/AW bug comes up. I give it one, maybe two more releases, before something big happens. Motor City Toys selling the new releases publicly at almost dealer cost (within cents) did not help one bit, I hate to say. That thread is still finding it's way to shop owners, most of whom then adamantly refuse to purchase future AW products. Without an affordable entry-level lineup of cars, track will be useless. Those of you who use the boards as their monitor of the health of the HO industry have no idea how seriously this stuff is impacting the hobby, because they only see the happy faces here on the boards.

I don't think there's gonna be an easy answer for you, Joe. Until people can learn to step back, cast their own interests aside for a moment, and look at the big picture there will be little growth of this great hobby.

:cry:

Great thread!!!!!!!

I want to (and am working on) adding my 2 cents to this discussion.

Gotta go with the Gator (Gene) on this one. HO needs a huge transfusion.

I will add that somehow fresh blood must be injected before it's too late. Perhaps it's already over?!

Like all savvy marketers you gotta hook the kids. What do you want to eat? Eight gazillion kids shout, "McDonalds!" What should we play? The same eight gazillion kids scream, "Xbox!"

Last week a couple of us Weds nite chat regulars were gabbing on Friday. A 15yr old kid comes on and says, "Whats a slot car?" I was flabbergasted!

Need I say more?

Perhaps some techno dude will hook a playstation game-troller to a track and bring some of these kids from the darkside and back into to the 3-D world.

A little off topic Joe, I do apologize, but I kinda see where Gene is coming from and had to put my own spin on it.

Unless they get a happy meal or some other form of instant gratification the majority of kids arent gonna play anymore.

Sure you can sell a finite amount of track to us grizzled veterans, but the marketing plum and perhaps the future of the hobby is in fresh blood. Unfortunately for you multiple radii curves and your other cool track pieces that appeal to the veteran arent considered a happy meal by the uninitiated, potential tabletop racing masses who wouldnt know a radius from a radish; but if their kids were screaming for a radius they'd darn well run out and buy two just to shuttem up.

Sad as it may seem, a race set based on the nefarious and unwholesome video game Grand Theft Auto would undoubtedly be a best seller. :rolleyes:

Interesting isn't it? I could be completely washed up here but it seems the bell has been tolling for this hobby. And tolling. And tolling. What I'm getting at is the hobby never seems to die out but it never seems to get any closer to that light at the end of the tunnel.

As for new blood, there are so many things competing for the attention of kids (and their parents dollars) nowadays that real life interactive toys seem to take a back seat. Sports are huge. Video games are huge. Surfing the net and wasting countless hours on MySpace. Unless you were brought into the hobby by someone else who actively participated in said hobby, the chances of you discovering it all on your own are slim. This could be said for ANY hobby like slot cars, model building, trains, radio control cars/planes/boats, etc. AND, in general, try to think of stores that sell real slot cars and sets to get them into the hobby. Not selling toys but selling the hobby. Not many if any.

I believe this is the reason slot car makers resorted to marketing toy tracks and using gimmicks to sell their product. I believe they were smart enough to realize that to keep their business alive, they needed to attract new blood. Get 'em hooked and they'll spend more money on more expensive products.

I also think there is a bit of embarrassment involved with some people who would like to do what we do but they're afraid their friends will look down on them for playing with toys. A grown up hobby is collecting stamps or coins not playing with little cars.

Well, forgive me while I refuse to grow up. :wave:

Growing OLD is mandatory..................
Growing UP is optional............... :D

The Slot hobby is not dying, in fact it is still in a growth cycle............BUT its shifted as its Hobbyists average age and income have shifted.
1/32 is King of the course at the moment..............BY FAR!!

Thats where i'd be putting my money......Sorry to you HO guys, I truly am but reality is the Squeeky wheel gets the grease and the HOT items get the investors!!!

Of course there are those investors who are stubborn and refuse to change with the market............Hence the term a fool and his money are soon..............you get the picture!!

Joe, I think that you are barking up the wrong tree.
You want to make track?
Don't make track sections for existing track.
Make a track system. Something along the lines of MaxTrax. (A 36" straight retails for $63 according to their site)
Make modern "professional" grade track.

Scott

I'd love to see 18", 21" and 24" flat and banked turns.

If you build it they will come.

An infusion of kids into the hobby would be great, but I don't see it happening, and I surely don't see the manufacturing of a specialty piece of track having any impact on the growth of the hobby.

If a kid does want to get into the hobby, then Racemasters has the box that will get them all set-up. Only a few of these kids will then want to take the track to the next level, and purchase specialty pieces. Most will get bored with it like they do everything else, and move on. It's the parent that you have to get interested in the hobby now, so that the parent is still willing to allocate the space required in the house for the hobby. Otherwise, they will be happy to see the track go into the box, and reclaim the floor space it was taking up.

(got to head to work - will finish later).

I'm getting depressed just reading the other responses. As the character 'Oddball' in the movie 'Kelly's Heros' said: "Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" I love that movie, especially as an ex-Army tank crewman. Woof! Woof!

HO's strengths are:
1. HO is a racing scale. There is probably more organized HO racing going on than in all the other scales combined. Much of the racing takes places in people's houses on plastic sectional track, as a good-sized HO track can fit into just about anyone's house. Sure, people would like a routed track, but they're expensive.
2. It appears that Racemasters/AFX/Tomy/whatever are reinvesting significantly in their product. New cars and a higher level of detail, (and new cars more often), new track pieces (18" curve), new sets (the Long Beach Grand Prix is out now), upgraded SG+ chassis. They are moving new product out the door. They're putting their money where their mouth is. Keep in mind that their product line can be traced back to the original Aurora product line. Other than Tyco (I can't get the M-word out), nobody else -- in any scale -- has made it this long.
3. HO has a significant number of small businesses supporting it.

While 1/32 scale is bigger and flashier, it's also takes up a lot of space in a home, and costs a lot. Cars keep getting more and more expensive. While 1/32 scale will always be around, I think it's bubble might be about to burst because of today's economy. It's too large for the average home, and too expensive to justify when things get tight.

So, Joe, where does that leave you?

Mattel is unlikely to come up with new turn radii. So, that's an option. However, Mattel is not really selling any new non-toy slot tracks, so that leaves that market cloudy, and may explain why your Tyco curves did not sell well.

Lifelike certainly could use some new turn radii. Since their sets are sold everywhere, that's a big market. However, if people don't hear about your product, or can't justify your price, people might either just dump their LL sets and move to Tomy, or drop out of the hobby (which happens all the time in all hobbies, including slot cars)

AFX/Racemasters is THE HO track right now. Last I heard, Auto World is planning to sell either a clone of the Tomy track, or resell Tomy track, which makes Tomy an even more dominant track choice.

Want some suggestions?
1. (Blushing) Track borders. They could fit Tomy, Tyco, Lifelike, etc. Cheaper and simpler to make than powered track sections. Sell or provide shims to raise the height of the border so it fits flush with other makes. Racemasters has already said they were not interested in making borders.
2. 15" straights. Everyone complains about the quality of the Tomy pieces, but there is no alternative. It *could* be an opportunity *IF* you could find a way to sell them in a volume that would allow you to be competitive in price to Tomy (Talk to Auto World, perhaps?). Of course, the risk is that Tomy fixes their quality problems... Perhaps you could engineer them to have features that Tomy does not have -- like having an easy connection to power jumpers, and a better quality of steel, which would not corrode.
3. Make turn pieces for LifeLike. Again, you might want give them a call. If you do the design, and know someone who could make it at a competitive price, they might just buy the designs from you, or use you as a subcontractor.

-- Bill

Joe, I think that you are barking up the wrong tree.
You want to make track?
Don't make track sections for existing track.
Make a track system. Something along the lines of MaxTrax. (A 36" straight retails for $63 according to their site)
Make modern "professional" grade track.

Scott

This logic sorta grates on me. I already have a large layout built from Tomy track that I've invested a ton of time and money on. My only complaint wit it is I'd like to have some bigger turns. Now when someone comes along that is willing to try and give me what I want, you tell him he'd be better off building a whole new expensive track system to compete with a half dozen other people making them.

Understand, most people getting into HO are buying a set from the local hobby store and gradually adding to it. That is the backbone of HO. You want to say, "Screw them. If they want a decent layout they can spend $2-4000 like everyone else." That is why this hobby never really takes off. The average basement racer isn't willing to commit to that kind of money and no one is offering him anything better that he can add to what he has.

Offer some better track pieces for existing systems, pieces that will make layouts similar to those $3000 systems and put them in the hobby shops that people go to to get started and you will sell it. You'll also bring more people into the hobby, because now it can be reasonable hobby instead of just a toy without exorbitant cash outlay to get there.

There is probably more organized HO racing going on than in all the other scales combined.

Bill, i'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.........While organized HO racing is doing OK in the USA, the USA is a very small part of The world.

1/32 is 5-6 times larger as a RACERS Market and 1/32 Organized racing is International.

1/32 is right now in its Boom in the USA and while the economy has shifted, Most slot racers will give up a case of Beer before buying their next slot purchase IMHO :p

Ive nothing against HO, I OWN HO (probobly not near the amount you or any other serious racer/collector has) And I'd love to see ya'll get everything you want in your preffered scale.........................At the same time, I do not want to see another forum member Invest 50 grand and with ALOT of luck, MAYBE break even in 10-12 years............He'd do better buying vacation property or land as an Investment(which by the way its a buyers market at the moment ;) ) It would have a far better chance of a decent return.

The other thing is as you mentioned...a time when we are experiencing a turn in the economy and rising interest rates is NOT the time to go out on a limb with your venture capital...............Solid Investments that are proven to be successful during economic Hiccups would be a better bet.......Stash your cash in a lucritive/safe investment & ride out this Hiccup........at least until after the election...............maybe you can come back in 1 year with 80 grand and perhaps look hard at the Slot market and WHO survived the trying times.............Watch what TYCO & TOMY do.............you are going to see Inventories being drastically cut over the next 2 quarters and R&D dollars being allocated to marketing to keep from losing another 27 - 50 million dollars per year like happened in the late 90's

I'm not going out of my way to be NEGATIVE...............
I AM going out of my to be REALISTIC..........for the sake of the one who ASKED for Input, the same One who has tried to do positive things FOR this hobby, anything else but what I feel to be truth would be unacceptable and potentially damaging to the hobby in the long term!!

If you dont agree with this assessment, fine....you are entitled to your opinion.......

But do get some facts straight.. ( in other words, dont take my word or anybody elses word...Look it up for yourself).....

look at the overall dollars spent in this hobby worldwide....... and then look to see where those dollars are going.
I agree a new track offering in HO will sell................BUT.....will it sell enough........to make an overall profit?

Can you take a 50,000.00 investment, turn it Into Inventory and then Turn that Inventory over 2.5 times or more (called ROI or return on Investment) in the next 12 months

These are the questions that need answering, and that is called RISK ASSESSMENT!!!!!!
Any new venture has risks.............some are higher than others. Based on the market and Economic conditions it would take balls of steel to invest 50 grand in HO track pieces at this time....... Of course the labor pool is there for any new start up business.......:cool:

This logic sorta grates on me. I already have a large layout built from Tomy track that I've invested a ton of time and money on. My only complaint wit it is I'd like to have some bigger turns. Now when someone comes along that is willing to try and give me what I want, you tell him he'd be better off building a whole new expensive track system to compete with a half dozen other people making them..

I am sorry that my opinions grate on you. But look at the facts.
Joe came out with 18" Tomy compatible turns. That was a great thing.
Probably cost him a bundle. Now Tomy has released their own 18" turns.
I am sure Joe has lots of incentive to do something like that again.



Understand, most people getting into HO are buying a set from the local hobby store and gradually adding to it. That is the backbone of HO. You want to say, "Screw them. If they want a decent layout they can spend $2-4000 like everyone else." That is why this hobby never really takes off. The average basement racer isn't willing to commit to that kind of money and no one is offering him anything better that he can add to what he has...
"Screw them." Funny, I didn't see that in my post anywhere. In fact I agree with most of this paragraph. My home track is Tomy. And I have no complaints about it. But it is what it is. I have raced on Wizz tracks, MaxTrax, Brystal tracks and other high end race tracks. And I like them! I hope one day to upgrade to one.


Offer some better track pieces for existing systems, pieces that will make layouts similar to those $3000 systems and put them in the hobby shops that people go to to get started and you will sell it. You'll also bring more people into the hobby, because now it can be reasonable hobby instead of just a toy without exorbitant cash outlay to get there.

And this sounds like a great idea.
Except Tomy copied Joe's 18" turn. And I have heard (Joe, correct me if I am wrong...) that the Mattel/Tyco pieces are not selling as well as was hoped...

Well now. After work tonight I have to get ready to go racing this weekend...

Scott

Hi Joe
Just happened to purchase several pairs of your 18" Tomy curves while visiting Buffalo the other weekend. I have never seen them up here in Canada and was surprised to find them in a hobby shop as I have only ever seen them for sale on line. I have to say they are very well made and they impressed me. It's unfortunate that racemasters have started making the same part in competition with you and I feel this probably would not have happened had you not got the ball rolling. I certainly hope you can continue to make more various pieces for the Tomy system as I believe it is the most popular and widespread system of track.
I think you may be making a mistake by concentrating on Tyco track as I just don't think that many people use it. It's a shame you can't get a deal with racemasters and work together to release more pieces.
I think if you want a return on your money releasing more car bodies may be the way to go. Much as I would like to see more track.
Thanks for doing the track you have done.
Bill

To answer your track question more specifically I personally have all the track that I need right now. My layout has been permanant for about 10 years now. The only pieces I would think about buying are the Tomy 18" and 21" 1/8th curves. These I would rework my existing track for. As far as other people I know who may build a track in the future the jumper tracks might come in useful. If you are thinking of making a longer straight I'd suggest going longer and making say a 30,36 or 48 inch straight. 21" and 24" aren't really going to eliminate many track joints so I don't see a great advantage over the 15" that are already out there. As far as 1/12th and 30 degree corners I don't think these would really be a huge seller and they would make it more difficult to plan your track.
A pitlane would be really cool but I think the price point might prove to be prohibitive for a lot of people.

When I decided to go four lanes last year I was happy with the way it came out. Luckily for me I had plenty of Tyco track, I didn't have any gap or uneven issues.

Since I hear so many comments on how the Tomy curves never quite line up right, why not just work on making some various radius 4 lane curve sections that the standard straight sections just connect to. Also create the curve sections like the 1/32 guys do when they rout were they squeeze the lanes tight at the apex. I think these would lead to some interesting and eye catching layouts.


I would also second the notion on creating aprons/ borders. For those who just want to create setups for races without the flare.


Tycoarm

Joe,

If you decide to start fabricating HO plastic track pieces again, here are my thoughts.

Go Tomy compatible. As someone who decided fairly recently to get into HO slots, it didn't take me long to decide to go with Tomy. Research on the internet pointed me in that direction, and the fact that the only hobby stores in my area (So Cal) that carry HO slot track sets have Tomy sealed the deal.

If you were to tell me today that all of the pieces you listed are available right now, the 3.5" track with a quality undertrack power connection would be one that I would seriously consider implementing into my current design. The rest of the pieces I would consider the next time I change my complete layout, which may be many months or longer away.

Bill mentioned borders, and I think that would be a good idea. I just recently spent a few long days standing at my bandsaw making my mdf borders. I made individual pieces for each curved track in my layout, both inside and outside. It was tedious work, but less then $20 in materials. For those without bandsaws or who just don't want to spend the effort to make them, if you priced these right, I would think you would sell alot of them.

Another idea would be to sell a group of pieces that can be used together to accomplish a specific purpose, and do so better then what is currently available in the boxed sets. For example: a set of pieces that form the largest curve possible for the end of a 4' wide table. Or maybe a 3-turn chicane with built in banking. Or.... maybe people more into 1:1 racing could think of something that is very much missing from current sets.

As to whether you should invest the time and money into another HO track venture, I don't have a lot of input. HO slot racing in So Cal seems to be virtually dead. If the potential market in the rest of the country isn't significantly better, then I can't see how it could be worth it.

Jeff

I think you may be making a mistake by concentrating on Tyco track as I just don't think that many people use it.

I'm not so sure about that and I can see just exactly why it should be considered a PRIMARY candidate.............I use it and if you watch Ebay you'll find that TYCO track can be picked up Very reasonable and IT SELLS!!!

Somebody is using it because 1000's of feet are sold every week on ebay.

I own probobly 600 + feet of Tyco track and the newer track ( post tycopro era) is very good track IMHO.

Tomy has been chosen recently simply because you have More options with the selections they have made available..........Tyco track is the one Line that actually could use a boost. How much more desireable would the track become if you could make a 4 lane out of it........have Big Sweeping turns.........perhaps even have working Pit Lanes ( ones that actually work and are functional unlike those that were included with their toy sets of the mid eighties)....I still dont believe the timing is right though............ :(

I personally eliminate Tomy because they are still apparently willing to produce new track pieces, as evidenced by their introduction of the 18" curve. This has made our mold, and the work we put into it, obsolete. Can't and won't be put in that position again.


Joe,

Maybe this is the exact reason why you DO go with Tomy instead of Tyco/Mattel. Tomy must be thinking that the addition of the 18" curve is going to increase their track sales, otherwise, I can't think if why they would do it. That may be a good reason to go with them.

I'm going to ask some questions here, and I'm ok if you don't answer them.

How much money do you make from selling track?
(just joking with that one). :wave:

I'm thinking you were the only one making 18" tomy curves before Tomy just recently jumped in. Is that true?

If so, how long were you the exclusive manufacturer of these pieces?

When do you think Tomy started thinking about making them?

What I'm wondering is how long you will have an exclusive, if we assume that Tomy will eventually jump in.

How much time do you think you need to generate enough sales, to make the investment worth while?

How were you selling your 18" curves? I bought 6 or 8 of them from you (thank you very much btw!) but I remember it was tough to find you. I remember Crimnick was almost being elusive as to who I should contact for them. Bill (f1nutz) mentioned he bought them in a hobby store, so it appears you were doing some marketing and sales outside of this forum. Maybe you could factor in that a little better marketing push would increase sales a few percent.

How many 18" curves do you have left? As I recall, your price for them was very reasonable, especially considering the tremendous benefit they provided. Maybe enough of us HT members could pitch in and buy out your current stock.

I remember how pleased I was when I got my 18" track pieces from you - might have been the best money I have spent so far. It woudl be exciting to see you do something bold like that again, and I only hope the numbers crunch out to where you see it as being feasible.

Hi Guys,
First of all, let me say thanks to those who have bought the new curves or give them a positive review when asked.
I have been reading all the responses with great interest and hope this thread stays active for a while yet. I started this document earlier today, so I'll have to reply to any later postings in a follow-up tomorrow. I can tell you a little bit about the curves which were already made, how the marketing and sales worked out, and what I see as the only way the HO hobby can get stronger - by that I mean gain more mass appeal and draw in the young kids that the hobby will need to sustain itself and grow.
The 18" curves were originally the idea of Dan Esposito. I saw them when Dan was in the process of getting the prototype made. His biggest concern was that if he were to put out the money do do this, would it sell? With my help, we were able to get a distributor to take a little more than half the initial run with Dan and I taking the remaining inventory (a vendor friend sold most of my portion). It is the distributor commitment that allowed the project to go forward. I think you would be surprised at how few curves I have sold over the years; the bulk of the sales originated from the distributor.
After that was done, I saw what I considered to be a glaring need in the track area. Tyco never made a 15" curve, and had only produced a 6" 1/4 curve years ago. At the time I was looking at the market, Tyco/Mattel sets were still plentiful and the amount of Tyco track out in the marketplace had to be enormous. Vendors were loaded with track they pulled from Tyco sets and would sell at great bulk prices. The biggest problem that I saw with Tyco track, aside from the weak center tab, was the lack of more than just a 9" and 12" curve. With a 6" 1/8 and 15" 1/8 curve, and the design improvements which eliminated the weak center tab and bent the rail for better electrical connectivity, the layout possibilities with Tyco could meet, and in some ways exceed, what you could do with Tomy.
Even today, I do not consider the making of the Tyco 6" and 15" curves a mistake. There are factors which have played into the slower sales. First off, I did not get the same distributor commitment on the Tyco curves as I had gotten on the Tomy curves (the distributor did not have the cash available to purchase more curves on the heels of the 18" curves - it took quite a while for them to pay off the order for the 18" curves), therefore lots more of the curves remain in my possession; plus I had more made so I could bring the price down. The 18" curve was a new frontier for curve sizes in HO, the 6" and 15" curves did not have that kind of impact. Mattel stopped making sets and cars - nothing kills you like the manufacturer going into hibernation. Mattel slots were no longer sold in retail toy stores, which is where a majority of their sales must have come from in the past; a place visited by the kids we are trying to turn into slotters.
And, I have not aggressivly marketed the curves. Just think, if I have 5,000 curves, all I need is 500 people worldwide to buy 10 pieces each and I blow through most of my inventory. Don't you think there are 500 people people in the whole world who use Tyco track and would like to get new curve sizes? It's a big world. I think if I could reach them, I could move the track very quickly.
Let me ask a quick question. If you were not on these boards, and did not attend slot car shows, how would you have known about the Tomy 18" curves? My personal sales of the Tomy curves are not much higher than those of the Tyco curves.
Tyco or Tomy, it doesn't matter - track is not a big seller for anyone. But it is something I think all of us understand - whether you're a novice or a grizzled veteran. Newby or expert, we can all build a track. We know what we like and the more track options we have, the more enjoyable the entire experiance can be. After all, it is all about the track and the layout; otherwise, we'd all be racing on ovals. It is the track that makes each of our layouts unique and special.
Those who point out that the future of HO resides in attracting the young are absolutely correct. Without appealing to the kids, the hobby will pass out when we do; and we can't have that because all my slot stuff ain't gonna fit in the box with me! LOL
What needs to happen is that slots have to be back in retail outlets. This is a must. Hobby shops are good, but their real purpose would be to continue to feed the addiction. Sets and cars have to again be available in TRU, Target, Wal-Mart and all other major stores. If slot cars do not reappear in retail stores, I do not see how the hobby can reach the kids. There needs to be an economical starting point and one with high quality.
The sets need to be big enough to hold the interest of a young kid, while not being a frustrating experiance - this is why I would push for the cars in any introductory set to be based off the Tyco HP-7. Pancake cars are great, but you really need to be able to tweak them and learn to drive without traction magnets (which means a smooth track). Rocket magnet cars are simply too fast and cannot easily be worked on; I often invent new ways to curse the heritage of inline chassis designers.
But the HP-7? Slow enough to control, fast enough to be fun and as easy to work on as any chassis ever made. It runs right out of the box and will run forever. Get the kid started with that chassis and a nice large layout and maybe you got a shot at keeping him/her interested. With a different can motor and different strength traction magnets (both of which can be changed in a minute by anyone) and you've got a chassis with a new set of characteristics.
I know I can get track made, and good quality track at that. While I want to rout my own track one day, having plastic sectional track is still good because I like to change layouts until I get them right - or build new ones. As a slot car hobbiest, I want more track options. I have lots of other ideas, some of which get touched on every now and then, but the best addition right now is more track options.
I'll be back....

Joe

Here's a couple ideas:

Make sections that lock together side-to-side, thus eliminating alignment prblens and giving the user four lanes or two as he chooses. This would also allow borders to lock in place.

How 'bout developing pieces that are flexible enough to follow terrain contours.

Hi Joe,

First of all THANKS! for bringing us an 18" Tomy curve. I use four of them in my layout. I would have never know they existed if not for the online forums and e-mail lists. I found mine at the Detroit swap meet last year or the year before. Knowledge gained online also influenced me to go with Tomy track once it became apparent that the LifeLike stuff wasn't going to cut it. There are some slot car sets present in retail. Mattel and LifeLike. LifeLike being the most available and also found in most Hobby Shops. Hobby Shops are the only place you will find a Tomy set in this area and usually only around Christmas.

I've been seeing to it that at least two kids (and their friends) know what slot cars are about. They enjoy it, but I don't think slot cars are on their Christmas lists. Attracting youth to a hobby can be a double-edged sword. The Parkflyer craze that has struck the radio control airplane community over the past few years like a tidal wave is a good example. The majority of the new blood sees little value in joining the old guard and does things their own way. Most young people today have an aversion to paticence, organization and work which puts them at odds with traditional RC clubs who have put a great deal of all three into obtaining, improving, and keeping RC airfields. The avantguard RC flyer will have to come around eventually, as they are proficient at getting radio control of any type banned at one public park after another thorugh annoying, reckless, or unsafe operation or for just failing to clean up after themselves. Sorry that took so long to explain :) The slot car community may get the infusion of youth too, but it may not be what or from where you expected.

I'd probably enjoy adding a couple of 21" curves to my layout. But, the lack of a consistenly straight and flat 15" Tomy peice and the gaps between the different radi curves has me thinking about moving to Tyco. The cost of buying a bunch of 15" Tomy straights in an attempt to cherry pick the straight peices (if they exist) is a bigger investment than I can make. In any event, I'm staying with plastic sectional track. I just can't justify the cost of a high-end setup. A routed setup would be a possibility if I thought I could rail it. I can get the CAD and routing work done for free where I work. I'm the "computer guy" and the CAD and Fab Shop both owe me several favors :) With 925 sq.ft. of finished basement, a commercial track that is free for the moving is prob. my ultimate fantsay as far as tracks go.

Tim

Hi Joe.
What I always thought would be neat would be longer replacement pieces for new or existing layouts. instead of 2- 12" straights, how about a single 24" piece. How about a 12" and a 9" into a 21" straight piece, or a 6"and 12" combined into a 18" . I can look at my layout and see many places where I could buy a longer piece and make a better smoother track. I am not a manufacturer, so I don't know how hard or how much $$$ it would take to do that, but I would like to have the opinions of the rest of the board to see if that would be something others would like to be able to buy to improve their tracks. A simple adapter could be made for other makes of H.O. tracks to be able to take advantage of the longer straights.

Let me ask a quick question. If you were not on these boards, and did not attend slot car shows, how would you have known about the Tomy 18" curves?

I have never been to a slot car show (I don’t think they have them in So Cal). I heard about the 18” curves on this forum. If not from here, I would’ve stumbled upon them somewhere else on the internet; maybe ebay, maybe an online store. Even then, without the ‘must have’ comments from the forum, I may not have seen the benefit of them as quickly as I did.

If the future of HO slots requires that kids take up the hobby in large numbers, then the future is bleak, because I just don’t see that happening. Slot car sets are large boxes and take up a lot of shelf space, and retail outlets (Target, TRU, Walmart, etc) are not going to invest that shelf space until a demand for the product is observed. The retailers will respond to the demand, not try and create it.

Tomy just released a brand new set, and I’m not sure anyone but the veterans have noticed. I don’t watch racing on TV – is there any advertising during races for slot cars?

If the manufacturers are going to try and reach the kids directly, they need to advertise to them, and I think they will need to add some techno-pop to the product. Include the software for lap timing, and an easy connection to the PC. But now the cost goes up, and the parents may direct their kids to a lower cost product, since they know the attention spans of their kids are short.

But let’s say that somehow a buzz is created about HO slot cars, and the kids are interested, and the perfect starter set is available at retail stores (a big enough layout to hold their interest, and cars like the Tyco HP-7). How many of those kids are then going to want to take it the next level, with a semi-permanent layout and the desire to include larger after-market curves? Now the parents really have to be involved and interested in it, because they have to allocate the space in the house for it. It’s not a Tuckaway anymore. We’re talking bigger then a billiard table, which is quite a commitment to an area of the home.

Without a major push by Tomy/Tyco/Lifelike to reach kids, the future is going to rely on more middle-aged folk getting interested in the hobby, and passing that interest on their kids and friends. And as such, any growth will probably be small in numbers, but based on current status of the hobby, could be a large percentage increase.

Keep in mind, my opinions are based largely because I live in So Cal. Aside from a couple groups of a couple dozen guys in their 30’s to 50’s running on some garage track, there is no real exposure here to HO slot cars. We do not have seasons, so the kids are outdoors year round.

Very good thread - as far as slot cars go I am geographically alone in the wilderness, but here are my observations.

TGTycopro makes an excellent point - 1/32 is hot. Cars are accurate, detailed and tunable. What is the disadvantage? Size, space, and, maybe to a lesser extent, cost.

Look at trains, more scales exist I know, but look at O gauge vs. HO. Similar comparitive dimensions, space and cost issues, dissimilar situation. Big O gauge locomotives are highly detailed and do all kinds of electronic tricks. However, most all the serious modelers are in HO, which is still much more popular. Kids used to get train sets all the time too, now it's rare, but the railroad hobby hasn't lost near about as much ground. Toys and gimmick sets help make someone's season, they don't build the hobby.

There has always been a strong interest in accurate scale models in people of all ages. That is why I have 1/32 cars that might as well be diecast for all the action they see. Why not appeal to that?

Workable, switchable pit lanes, with pit walls. Borders? How about molded gravel traps with Armco, or tire barriers? Worker stands and flag stations. Concrete barriers and catch fencing, like at any temporary circuit. One thing I thought about was concrete surface track - wide and rectangular, lanes following the line, to simulate the runways and streets of some temporary road courses. If it were in Tyco and I have TOMY, big deal, doesn't somebody make adaptors? If not, couldn't I?

Maybe it wouldn't be the ultimate for the serious scratch builders and kit bashers, but it would play to the strength of small scale racing - the ability to have a lot of variety and scenery, even elevation change, with a very high degree of accuracy in a relatively small space.

Just thinking out loud, guys.

I believe that interest in slot racing mirrors the national interest in auto racing.

In the 60s, road racing was hot. Ford was challenging Ferrari with the GT40, Chaparral was turning out unique cars, and Carol Shelby was turning out various models of Cobras. US open wheel racing was exciting, with the change from front engined cars to the mid-engine. We had the STP turbine cars, the Gurney Eagles, and many other unique cars. The Can-Am, Trans-Am and other race series were exciting -- unlimited competition in one series, and cars you could by from the dealership in the other. F1 saw a rapid evolution of their cars, and participation by American cars and drivers made the series relevant to people in the US.

Commercial slot racing appeared, grew frantically, and crashed like all other fads. Auto racing crashed, too, when the gas crisis of the early 70s hit.

Slot racing hung on, kept going by the 'true believers' in all scales, but mostly in HO scale, as they were the only sets available commercially for quite a while.

Time passed. Open wheel racing went through a messy 'divorce' and dwindled in importance. NASCAR started to grow, as the marketing engine behind it started to fire on all cylinders. A revived Trans-Am series appeared and generated some interest. GTP racing appeared, and while it lasted, it was fast, exotic, and exciting. WRC rallying is hot outside of the US.

Slot racing entered a mini-boom in the 80s/90s. Commercial tracks went up again, and more 1/32 sets were available. While I don't remember much about HO in this period, I still see a lot of Tomy and Tyco GTP cars, so it must have been a driver for them, too.

But GTP racing flamed out. Trans-Am faded. US open-wheel racing kept getting weaker. NASCAR ruled.

While NASCAR is big, oval racing does not translate well to a slot track, although many have tried. Ditto for WRC rallying.

Which brings us to today. NASCAR is huge, but may be starting to decline. US open wheel racing is on life support. There are some small US road racing series out there -- Grand Am, ALMS, and the Speed Challenge, but outside of NASCAR and the remnants of US open-wheel racing, nothing generates much in the way of national interest. F1 struggles as a series, while it's marketing machine keeps pulling in the dollars. There are local series in other nations -- DTM, JGTC, and many others, but nothing with a worldwide pull.

Slot racing in the US is slightly warm. 1/32 outside the US is hot, driven by the ability to focus on local series, but again, in the US, oval slot racing makes for boring racing. In the meantime, commercial tracks come and go, 1/32 racing is higher than it has been in a long time, driven mostly by a large variety of new cars, and HO continues to hang in there as it always has despite a lack of new investment. 1/43 scale is starting to grow, but the 1/32 companies that make it view it mostly as a kid toy.

The US is in a period of fast muscle cars again. That tends to drive interest in racing. But no new racing series has really gained traction -- yet.

Tomy, and Auto World are reinvesting in their products. LifeLike focuses on the mass markets, but has an insufficient line of track, and their cars are generally ignored by racers and lack aftermarket parts.

-- Bill

Hi Guys,
Well, let me see if I can address some of the questions and opinions which have surfaced since I last posted.
As far as I know, we were the first to come up with an 18" curve for HO. I am guessing that we had the curve out for about 3 1/2 years before Racemasters decided to produce its version of the 18" curve. I also saw on another board that they might also be thinking about a 21" curve.
To answer another question, the length of time to recoup your investment depends on whether or not you get any distributors to take the bulk of the run. If a distributor took the entire run, you could charge them $.01 a piece over production costs and get your money back the same day. If you have to sell it yourself, you are probably talking years of work, but you’ll make a few more dollars.
Either way, you’re not going to buy a tropical island based on the profits.
As to making more Tomy compatible pieces, that is not going to happen from my end; at least not with any financial commitment from me. If, and it’s a big if, you want to create track which has a chance of being sold, the only option I see is Tyco compatible. The differences between Tomy and Tyco are not that great. Take away Tomy’s deeper slot (a feature used only by after-market pins and AFX blades), 3” hairpin, 3” straight and 18” curve, and the differences disappear. Personally, I have no use for the 3” hairpin or the 3” straight – the 6” curve is more than tight enough. In fact, factoring in the Tyco single lane option, and off road pieces, Tyco track selection is greater. With the design improvements, lower cost and maybe just a bit more tweaking (remove the molded letter) there is no reason not to use the new Mattel if you are going with plastic track.
If you use Tomy track, I believe your only source is going to be Racemasters. It will all depend on how much money they invest in track. If you go with Tyco, it really depends on how much inventory is left and whether or not someone picks up the slot car line or a third party adds to it.
Turn aprons would be a great addition to HO slots, especially since one size should fit all three brands of track, and it is something I would consider doing as quick as possible were the resources available.
Four lane curve pieces, no matter how appealing, are just not going to get manufactured (I believe) for the simple reason that the customer base at the moment is already small. The market for four lane track would only interest a percentage of those who own or want to build a four lane track. That is a small subgroup of an already small group. And it’s possible that four lane track would not appeal to those with six lanes.
Producing pieces that lock side to side to produce 4, 6 or 8 lane tracks would probably be best accomplished by creating undertrack clips. This should be fairly easy and inexpensive and would work with all existing tracks. It is possible that all future track design could somehow incorporate an even easier way to accomplish this feature.
Producing a piece of track which squeezes the lanes together entering a turn is simple. However, in order not to have to make special curves, the squeeze would occur before the curve and then open up to regular spacing just before the curve. Basically, you would have a piece of track with the slots at normal width on one side and narrow width on the other. You then use the pieces in pairs – normal to narrow to normal to curve. Or, you could just use the already existing 15” squeeze tracks before a curve. To create two different curves – one with normal slot width and one with narrow slot width, would not be economically feasible.
I addressed the issue of long straights in another thread on this board inside this category. Look up “Longest Practical Straight”. While a 21” or 24” straight might not be a big leap over the current 15” straight, the fact is that Mattel is not making any more track as far as I can tell. Therefore, the supply of 15” Tyco/Mattel straights is drying up. Instead of making 15” straights, I would jump right to either a 21” or 24” straight and make it terminal/jumper capable.
I think very long straights that some people want, like 36” or 48”, would be best accomplished by getting a fabricator to rout straights from 4x8 sheets of plastic. This should insure that the straights are straight. The ends of the straights would be squared off like Aurora Model Motoring and this may require a special adapter track to go from Tyco (and Tomy) to this long straight.
I would think lap timers and lap counters would best be accomplished by using already existing PCs and software. All you need in terms of readily made accessories is something along the lines of the old Aurora electric lap counter track (a piece of track isolated from the rest of the circuit or with LEDs), software and the connection cable.
There are two electronic goodies I think could be useful. One would be an electronic system which simulates tire wear and fuel usage, and varies the voltage to your car accordingly. I would also love to see an electronic system which detects a deslot and cuts power to that lane for a given length of time (user adjustable) and/or creates a caution flag situation in which voltage drops on all lanes. This would create a set time penalty for a deslot and not rely on the quickness of a turn marshal, as long as the time delay is greater than the time it takes for the marshal to reslot a car. Ten seconds should do nicely. Tyco and Mattel both produced Race Computers which did fuel and tire wear. . Although I have not used them yet, the idea has been done.
Pit lanes are a great idea. Two problems I see. (1) How many could you sell. (2) What design would you use.
Doing a very specialized piece like a pit lane would be a gamble. First of all, you don’t know how many people would actually redesign their layouts to take advantage of them, or decide to use them in a new layout. And even if they do use them, they only need one or two. At least with curves or straights, you hope to get a sale of at last eight to each person.
Second, what would the design look like? Some guys would want the pit lane to go inside the track like NASCAR and Indy. Others would want a lane coming off to the outside of the track so they could pick up the car and work on it (clean tires?) during a long race. Either way, you need to have one lane cross the other to get into the pits. The problem gets more complicated as you go to four, six or eight lanes.
It could be done, but I worry about the sales. Unless the hobby gets real popular, I don’t see how you could recoup your investment in a pit lane piece.
I am assuming that model railroading is not suffering the same type of growth problems or decline that seems to affect slots. I would be interested to hear theories on why that is.
I think we all know that in order to grow and keep this hobby alive, we must get kids interested in this hobby. Not being a parent, I can only observe the behavior of other kids or learn what kids are like from friends who do have kids. From all indications, kids today are not like the kids growing up in the 50s, 60s or even 70s. The amount of material things that kids get today seems to remove any appreciation for the things they have – it all comes too easy. They must have, and usually get, all the latest gizmos. This is just the world in which they were born. But let’s stay on topic.
Growing up when us baby boomers did, we experianced the era of mechanical automation. Everything in the 60s was AUTO something. Many of us became very mechanically oriented. It carried through to our tinkering with slot cars and working with our real cars once we saved enough to buy that first piece of junk. Many of us probably spent time in the backyard with dad working on the family car. I’ll bet a lot of us can no longer work on the cars of today; therefore your kid never gets that experience. Today everything is electronic. Once it breaks, get a new one. The only exception may be PCs; you can actually replace parts on them.
Plus, I notice a growing trend in our society toward a lack of appreciation for those with a technical skill. Our society here in the US rewards those who manage, not those who actually perform the fuctions necessary to keep our society running. I have a saying "Your salary is inveresly porportional to the importance of your job". If you were going to college today, would you want to become a technican with a skill (scientist, teacher, engineer, computer pro, etc.) or try to get into something like stock broker or lawyer? Our society rewards those who contribute the least. Is it really any wonder kids do not learn technical skills?
However, we can’t paint all kids with the same brush. Most of us are only exposed to the people in our general area. We really don’t know about people in other areas, or other counties. It’s a big world and I’m sure there are kids out there who would be interested in a hobby like trains or slot cars. The trick is finding them and once you get them, make them want to stay.
Keep the cards and letters coming....

Thanks…Joe

If I were king, I'd ban those hand-held games that kids are playing everywhere -- what is that? Game Boy? PSP?

I was at Road America yesterday for the ALMS race and I saw kids all around the track totally glued to the screen in their hands and not even noticing the RACE CARS RACING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM!

Times change I guess. When I was kid I could not wait to get to the race track.

'doba

If I were king, I'd ban those hand-held games that kids are playing everywhere -- what is that? Game Boy? PSP?

I was at Road America yesterday for the ALMS race and I saw kids all around the track totally glued to the screen in their hands and not even noticing the RACE CARS RACING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM!

Times change I guess. When I was kid I could not wait to get to the race track.

'doba

:thumbsup: Consider yourself crowned! ;) Now let's get to it!

I'll bring hammers :wave:

The ability to do a track like this one below (just as an example) With HO track has Never been possible..................BUT, it sure would open up alot of possibilities.........2 lanes to 3 2 lanes to 1..........single lane straights and curves for lead ins and squeezes (or for hillclimbs and rally's or parking lot tracks)
Getting Kids interested in HO slots can only increase if you can increase realism and while many young kids are not Likely to give up their Gameboys.......Remember, they dont drive yet either.

Why does Model rring Not have the same issues as Slots

#1 - Manufacturer cooperation & A National Organization
#2 - National Standards that All manufacturers use so that everybodys stuff can operate with anybody elses stuff
#3 - Diversity
but more imprtant than all of this is that Model railroaders go out and SHOW their stuff..they build Portable layouts that can be displayed ANYWHERE.

Model railroaders promote their hobby ENDLESSLY!!!

Now this can be built in 1/32 NOW, TODAY.............Why not in HO??

Which HO racer wouldnt love to have the ability to utilize all these track pieces?
This was a well thought out track System............Tyco could be made into this type system (as could tomy) The Basics are all there.. :thumbsup:

Grandcheapskate, long time lurker, seldom post - but this topic interests me. I currently club race and have a 85' four lane Tomy track with four of your 18" turns (very nice) for my faster cars and am currently building a smaller 50' (+/-) Tomy track for slower my cars (Tjets).

Other than a 21" curve, the only thing I think I would want in plastic sectional track would be straight that allows jumpers wires to easily be hooked up to it. My large track has 12 jumpers or 96 soldered wire leads attached to terminal strips. And, I hated soldering each of those wires to the rails. It does get easier as you do them but it is still not a fun job (to me). It would be so nice just take a wire, strip, crimp on a olderless connector, and slide it on to an extended tab on the underside of the track.

Other than that, if you haven't sold out your 18" Tomy and 6"/15" Tyco curves, I would wonder what, if any, track pieces could be economically produced that would have a broader appeal. I would have thought those curves would be the most across the board desireable by the majority of slot car enthusiasts. And, maybe that's the point... unless you're into this hobby, you wouldn't know about cottage industries producing other parts for slots - be it track or performance parts.

This will probably be that last Tomy track I build. Not because I'll leave the hobby but I'll either go custom routed Wizzard or Bowman or route my own. A couple of our club members have routed their own four lane tracks and laid the rails. The routing doesn't look hard and they have jigs to route the add'l lanes and grooves for the rails. But, gluing in the rails looks to be the toughest part.

And, here's a tool I'd love for someone to build. A tool to help lay rail to a fairly consistent rail height. I don't have a lathe/mill to create such a tool but can't image it would be too hard but I wouldn't know. If someone has seen such a tool or knows who sells one, let me know.

Steve

I agree that 1/32 is hot. At my LHS, the aisle that holds slot car track is about 20% HO (Tomy sets), and 80% 1/32 (Scaletrix).

The HO cars (Tomy SRT's) are hanging on pins above the HO track sets. The 1/32 cars have about 6' of glass case along another counter, a couple of shelves high.

I'm guessing that if you walked in and advised one the employees that you were interested in getting involved in slot cars, they would be setting you up with 1/32 stuff.

It seems to me that 1/32 is currently in a growth spurt, but I have no idea if there are people making aftermarket track pieces for that scale. If the manufacturer's are keeping up with demand for new pieces, then even if this is the growth area of slot cars, there may not be a viable play for aftermarket pieces.

HO on the other hand is seeing no such growth spurt. The major manufacturers of track and cars are still in the dark ages - taking years to crank out a simple larger curve, and cranking out the same old cars with different colors. If there is any type of resurgence in HO (which would need to be created by the majors) then this is the best opportunity for aftermarket specialty parts.

But like I said before - having a 21" curve available, or a 3.5" terminal track is not going to create the resurgence. The boxed sets need to start moving off the shelves before the add-on pieces are going to be needed.

Joe, you seem pretty much sold on going Tyco/Mattel as opposed to Tomy, and if you think this is where the growth is going to be in HO, then I think it is the right move. If 1000's of pieces of Tyco track are exchanging hands on ebay each month, and those poeple are actualy building race tracks and then looking for speciality pieces, then this sounds like the way to go. The sales of the Tyco specialty tracks that you already have I assume support your decision that this is where HO is going.

While typing this I just read Steve's (TurnNBurn) post, and I think he brought up a good point. If you were to manufacture 21" Tomy curves, who is going to buy them except for those people that have 18" curves? As of today, you have a good idea of how many 18" curves are out there (pre-Racemasters), and at best you might figure 25% of those curves would be eventually complimented with a 21" curve.

I guess the bottom line is that, as a manufacturer of specialty pieces, you need to ride the coattails of the product that is going to grow, or, adaptor tracks need to have an appeal to the new slot car hobbyist.

The reality is that unless you sell sets, you will not gain new (to the hobby) customers. Unless you are going to sell sets with cars, scratch new blood off of your marketing list entirely and focus on enhancing what's already out there. Power drops, long straights, things that are easily incorporated into existing layouts and will improve the racing experience 100-fold. Curves are hit or miss based on the racing skills and/or creativity of the buyer. Something you don't see often on the web: many groups outlaw 6" curves. That is something that probably could've impacted your decision to make them in the first place, and you won't hear it on the web. Joe you need stuff that will be talked about trackside...real word of mouth still beats the web many times over in our little hobby. I'd bet you could produce and sell a pair of 30" Tomy straights for less than the cost of four 15" Tomy pieces (and with better quality to boot). I'd be clamoring to save enough to rip out every 15" pair I could replace, and I'd need 24 30-inches to replace them. Curves? I'm not gonna rip up my layout to change one section (ie, add the 18" stuff), but I'd replace every pair of 1/8 curves with 1/4 radius ones in a heartbeat. That kind of stuff, in my mind, is gonna be your target areas. And if it makes my track, already popular, even better, the racing experience alone will be your best marketing tool.

I believe the reason that model railroading has been a more stable hobby than slot car racing is because model railroading is a CRAFT. You strive for the most realism possible in your layout. You plan, you revise, you create unique scenes. The incremental improvements can go on forever. It is something that you can do by yourself, but it also works by getting together with like minded people to help spread ideas and innovations. There is an active press, along with numerous websites devoted to model railroading.

And yet, like slot car racing, model railroading isn't hooking the young kids. It's the kind of hobby that an established guy will get into.

Slot car racing is not a craft, it's competition. You can't race by yourself very well, you need a group of friends to race with or against. Friendly competition is one thing, but often -- like most competition -- it gets more serious. Some people thrive on that, some don't. The ones that don't drop out of the hobby or become 'social racers'. I'm not even going to get into collecting.

As for the 'realism' that 'digital' brings to slot racing... I think the most realistic series is the one that '76 Cordoba is in. I was totally impressed by their rules and their focus on realism in the racing. Realism isn't limited to lane changing. Realism can also be found in having realistic limits on what you can do, particularly when it is structured around a real racing series' rules.

There really isn't much of a slot car press. AFAIK, there are two US printed magazines on slot racing. Without mentioning names, one magazine covers the events going on around the US, but has next to no 'how to' articles. The other magazine features new cars and new technologies for the most part, with an occasional 'how to' on making a slot car go faster, or building your own slot car. And -- I just have to say it -- some of the most terrible track layouts imaginable. The layouts are unrecognizable, tiny, and uninteresting to drive on.

Compare that to the model railroading magazines. They are full of 'how to' articles. They have multiple 'how to' books. The books and magazines don't push new products, as new products are not the focus of model railroading; instead it's realism, planning, operating, and building.

And as for 'knocking' the kids for wasting their time on video games and the like... I don't know about you, but I think I heard just about the same speech from my parents -- only about about slot racing -- when I was a kid.

Slot racing in the 60s was relevant. It was the application of state-of-the-art miniature electric motors, precision molded plastic bodies, and innovative hand-built brass chassis in competition. Many of the best commercial racers went on to become machinists.

Today, those 60s technologies are not very important. Understanding computers is relevant today. Looking for holes in the software of games is relevant, speeding up data speeds to give you an edge in an on-line game is relevant. How will today's kids transfer what they have learned by playing games to their life? I have no idea, just as my parents could not imagine any possible benefit of wasting my time and my money at the slot track. It happens to a few, and for the others... they will come away with fond memories.

Guys, we are playing with toy cars. Enjoy it for what it is.

-- Bill

The reality is that unless you sell sets, you will not gain new (to the hobby) customers. Unless you are going to sell sets with cars, scratch new blood off of your marketing list entirely and focus on enhancing what's already out there.

Exactly correct. That is why I said in one of my earlier posts that race sets have to get back into the retail stores so they are seen by kids and parents. The hobby stores then become the place to go if you want more. The set has to have a good large layout and the cars, in my opinion, should be the HP-7 due to the simplicity of the chassis.

Power drops, long straights, things that are easily incorporated into existing layouts and will improve the racing experience 100-fold. Curves are hit or miss based on the racing skills and/or creativity of the buyer. Something you don't see often on the web: many groups outlaw 6" curves. That is something that probably could've impacted your decision to make them in the first place, and you won't hear it on the web.

I'll bet of they don't like the 6" curve, the 3" curve is definitely out.
The power problem is one reason why I propose doing a 3 1/2" straight with undertrack connections. In addition to providing an odd size, you could stick them almost anywhere to provide easy jumper points. Actually I would hope that any straight we make will be jumper capable.
As I look back on the decision to make the Tyco 6" and 15" curve, I wonder whether I would have been better off doing the Tyco 15" and 18" first, and leave the 6" for later on in the process. However, my thinking was that for the person who doesn't have a lot of room, the 6" curve allows for more track in a smaller space.

Joe you need stuff that will be talked about trackside...real word of mouth still beats the web many times over in our little hobby. I'd bet you could produce and sell a pair of 30" Tomy straights for less than the cost of four 15" Tomy pieces (and with better quality to boot). I'd be clamoring to save enough to rip out every 15" pair I could replace, and I'd need 24 30-inches to replace them. Curves? I'm not gonna rip up my layout to change one section (ie, add the 18" stuff), but I'd replace every pair of 1/8 curves with 1/4 radius ones in a heartbeat. That kind of stuff, in my mind, is gonna be your target areas. And if it makes my track, already popular, even better, the racing experience alone will be your best marketing tool.

My understanding is that to produce a mold for a 30" straight would be VERY high, and when the plastic is that long, it could easily warp. I do not believe making track to be price competitive with factory Tomy or Mattel is possible. I once heard that Racemasters was surprised that we could run off as "few" curves as we did - their minimum run is 100,000 pieces. Don't know if that is true, but if I could run off 100,000 pieces I could get the cost down to Tomy/Tyco levels - only I'd be living out of an old refrigerator box. I don't have the resources (money and space) to have runs that large.

Let's face it, many people are not going to change or add to their layout no matter what comes out. But, I think everyone can agree that having more track options is good for the hobby.
One other thing that would be great if it could be done - a copy of the Aurora Terminal Anywhere piece for Tomy and Tyco. If you have never seen it, it worked with the original Model Motoring track. You put it underneath two adjacent pieces of track and it had the 4 screw terminals out the side like the standard terminal track. It had four tabs which contacted the electrical tabs of both pieces of track, thereby producing an easy jumper point. Designing one for the non-squared off ends of Tyco and Tomy would be tricky.

Joe

Joe, you seem pretty much sold on going Tyco/Mattel as opposed to Tomy, and if you think this is where the growth is going to be in HO, then I think it is the right move. If 1000's of pieces of Tyco track are exchanging hands on ebay each month, and those poeple are actualy building race tracks and then looking for speciality pieces, then this sounds like the way to go. The sales of the Tyco specialty tracks that you already have I assume support your decision that this is where HO is going.

While typing this I just read Steve's (TurnNBurn) post, and I think he brought up a good point. If you were to manufacture 21" Tomy curves, who is going to buy them except for those people that have 18" curves? As of today, you have a good idea of how many 18" curves are out there (pre-Racemasters), and at best you might figure 25% of those curves would be eventually complimented with a 21" curve.


I don't know if Tyco is where the growth is - there may well be no growth, just a somewhat slow steady stream of baby boomers buying a few pieces every so often. What I do know is that I will not take the chance of doing another Tomy piece which they may decide to do in the future.
It is a shame that with all that could be done, Tomy decides to replicate something that was already out there. Hopefully, AW is not wasting resources creating it's own molds of Tomy compatible track. Wouldn't it be a hoot if AW spent money to create the mold for a 9" 1/4r curve?
All I am trying to say is that if you are going to do track, I just think that Tyco/Mattel is the only option open to you. It's not a great option, but it is the best option.
And it is very true about 21" curves. I also believe that a 21" would be the last 1/8 curve produced. Anything larger might need to be 1/16th because of the size of the mold. Besides, with a lot of race tables being four feet wide, a full 21"r 180 degree turn would be the largest turn you'd be able to accomodate. I think after a 21" curve, you need to start looking at either 1/16th curves for the 9"-12"-18"-21" curves, or at 30 degree (1/12th) curves for those same sizes.

Joe

Exactly correct. That is why I said in one of my earlier posts that race sets have to get back into the retail stores so they are seen by kids and parents.

Joe, do you foresee that happening?

What I do know is that I will not take the chance of doing another Tomy piece which they may decide to do in the future.
It is a shame that with all that could be done, Tomy decides to replicate something that was already out there.

Personally, I think wahoo at Racemasters should have bought your mold, or contracted with you for those 18" curve pieces. I'm guessing that those conversations happened, but didn't work out, for whatever reason.

But whatever piece you decide to make, if it fills a niche, and has the appearance of profitibility, someone is going to eventually compete with you.

If Mattel sets start flying off the shelves of your local walmart, then Mattel is your next Tomy.

Exactly correct. That is why I said in one of my earlier posts that race sets have to get back into the retail stores so they are seen by kids and parents. The hobby stores then become the place to go if you want more. The set has to have a good large layout and the cars, in my opinion, should be the HP-7 due to the simplicity of the chassis.

I remember back when I decided to lay out my own hard earned cash for a new set back in the mid 70's.........I was right around 17......driving /working and going to school and Knew that my Old slot set was too small..........Tycopro had the largest set out at the time.........something like 57' of track.
Of all the sets i have seen over the last 4 or 5 years, I dont think any of them had more than 30' and most were in the 21-24' range.....many are gimmik sets ....by gimmiks i mean lop the loops and climb a wall and roller coaster type stuff and daredevil jumps.(i dont think gimmiks ever did sell that well).
Whats my point here..........you not only need sets in the stores, you need the RIGHT SETS.............and it needs to be Built and Displayed.........AND finally...
IT NEEDS TO HAVE A COMPUTER ATTACHED TO IT!!!

Manufacturers seem to think that they need to keep things simple.....what they dont realize is that most of these kids out there are SMARTER when it comes to Technology like computers and their uses...then THEY ARE!!

also........realism isnt JUST the ability to change lanes, If you havent raced on a Digital track than you cant Know what its like to race Slot cars IN TRAFFIC!!!!
6 cars on a 2 lane..............maybe 8 cars on a 4 lane squeezing to 2 then 2 then back to 3 then 4............Yes, you need a fair amount of room to be able to do this which brings up my other point.........Providing room to the younguns to be able to build and create a club.

How many of you have a local hobby shop providing space to ANY type of club???
This used to be normal....the hobby shop had an area for a Slot club or a model rr club or in some cases...BOTH!!
Now, money is everything and space is money and nobody gives anything for nothing........This is another hurdle that is difficult to overcome.

Also keep in mind that few sets are being made and of those that are, the hot seller is the one with SET ONLY cars........50% of these are purchased by collectors for the cars and the track & peripherals are peddled on ebay.

I think if you want to save HO, it needs to be brought into the new millenium, and very soon!!!
This means a New track System that can utilize the millions of pieces already available ans a few specialty pieces manufactured along with a New control system and controllers and Chipped cars with the ability to chip older cars.

It can be done.......they can digitally chip a Z scale locomotive.

So.........until someone moves HO into the future...I still just dont see it being anything resembling a good investment and its going to take more than 100,000.00 to create a digital system for HO and do it right.............I believe it will be done on the heels of success in 1/32......When and by whom is the question along with will it be too little too late!!! :confused:

Personally, I think some wahoo at Racemasters should have bought your mold, or contracted with you for those 18" curve pieces. I'm guessing that those conversations happened, but didn't work out, for whatever reason.

But whatever piece you decide to make, if it fills a niche, and has the appearance of profitibility, someone is going to eventually compete with you.

If Mattel sets start flying off the shelves of your local walmart, then Mattel is your next Tomy.

To answer a couple of Scafremon's questions:

(1) I don't know if racesets will again appear in retail stores. I think if anyone wants to try to get into slot cars, getting a footprint in retail stores is a must. When I see all the crap that Mattel sends out there for Hot Wheels, some of them in huge retail boxes taking a lot of shelf space, I can't help but believe that if that junk sells, slot cars would do quite well.

(2) As far as I know, there was no communication between Racemasters and anyone concerning the 18" curves. However, since I do not own that particular mold, I do not know that for certain.

(3) As I said before, when I'm in the local TRU or KB Toys, I see the most useless Hot Wheels junk you can imagine. I simply cannot believe that if some of that shelf space went to slots, that the slot sets wouldn't sell. This is especially true for Mattel. They already have the molds and manufacturing in place - there is no tooling necessary.

Also, consider this. If you have a copy of Dan Esposito's Mattel supplement, you'll see a lot of cars, mostly F1, which I'm sure most of us have never seen in person. Why? The sets those cars came in sold out before most of us even knew they existed. I think this clearly indicates that if Mattel puts out a set with desireable cars, the sets disappear real quick. True, the sets probably sell because a collector wants the cars, but the point is they sell, and sell quickly.
If Mattel (or someone buying the Mattel line) were to get the sets into retail stores, include some desireable cars, and have a good layout with all desireable pieces (no 9" 1/4 curves), I do believe they will move and move quickly.

Joe

TGTycoPro,
Some excellent points and I have no disagreement with any of them. Without question, if you put a set, or sets, into retail stores, the set must be a large, good layout. I would go as far as to say that the layout should cover a 4x8 board. There should be no gimmick track, nothing less than a 12" curve, no elevation changes and turn aprons instead of guardrail.
Whether you offer controllers and a power supply as part of the set becoms a trickier question than you may think. One the one hand, you want to provide a good controller and power supply to the person just starting; that will cost money. On the other hand, you don't want to include those items if this is the person's second or subsequent set. It may be the best solution is to either make two versions of the set (one complete, one without controllers/power), or have the set not contain these items amd sell the controllers and power supply as a seperate package.
Digital is something I have not looked into or have any knowledge of. However, I think I get the picture and if digital could be incorporated into existing track, that would open up a huge market that I could see being quite profitable (I'm starting to sound like a Ferengi), especially when you can use all your existing track.
Lastly, computer hookup. Without question a must.

Joe

If the 6'' is too tight/banned then what about a 7.5'' turn and a 10.5'' to go with it?

To answer a couple of Scafremon's questions:

(1) I don't know if racesets will again appear in retail stores.

Ummmm... Actually, SCX has just started selling 1/43 sets at Target. Appears to be good quality, generous amount of track (25'), nicely detailed F1 cars, and no kid loops, wall climbers, etc. About $90. There is a smaller figure 8 tuner kit. They also sell extra cars (2/$20) (NASCAR, F1, Tuner), and extra track. You can make a 4-lane setup with this track.

The plan is for SCX to start selling the product line in hobby shops later, but the sets will be more elaborate.

It appears that several of the F1 sets have been sold at the Target store close to me, along with extra cars and track.

Here's a link to a poorly translated english version of a german review of the SCX Compact line:

SCX Compact Review (http://www.bw-slot.de/articles.php?lng=en&pg=640)

-- Bill

Maybe, to get kids interested, we need to re-think the standard controller we are used to.

Maybe this will get 'em interested:

TGTycoPro,
Some excellent points and I have no disagreement with any of them. Without question, if you put a set, or sets, into retail stores, the set must be a large, good layout. I would go as far as to say that the layout should cover a 4x8 board. There should be no gimmick track, nothing less than a 12" curve, no elevation changes and turn aprons instead of guardrail.
Whether you offer controllers and a power supply as part of the set becoms a trickier question than you may think. One the one hand, you want to provide a good controller and power supply to the person just starting; that will cost money. On the other hand, you don't want to include those items if this is the person's second or subsequent set. It may be the best solution is to either make two versions of the set (one complete, one without controllers/power), or have the set not contain these items amd sell the controllers and power supply as a seperate package.
Digital is something I have not looked into or have any knowledge of. However, I think I get the picture and if digital could be incorporated into existing track, that would open up a huge market that I could see being quite profitable (I'm starting to sound like a Ferengi), especially when you can use all your existing track.
Lastly, computer hookup. Without question a must.

Joe

What's wrong with having an elevation change on a track? Real courses have them, that makes no sense to me.....

I also believe a good controller and power supply is key, I think that is the reason a lot of people end up shelving their week old purchase. It's not much fun to have your car launched because the car in the other lane comes off and now you have all the juice in your lane, and then have those crappy controllers that seem to come in EVERY set. A base 45 ohm Parma would be cheap enough to include in sets ($20 retail, should be less to stick into a set) but I do like the idea of selling them seperate as an upgrade to the sets. The other about power supplys, why can't a decent one be made for cheap? You can get a 12 volt variable power supply that will run 4 G-Jets for $10 and it works great even with cars flying off the track. Those other bricks have been around forever, you'd think somewhere along the way they could be upgraded.

If you give people a controller that will actually control a car and a decent power supply, that would go a LOOOONG way to keeping people in the hobby. Then throw in some fun cars that a newbie can just put on the track without having to tweak and shim half the components, you'd be set.

I also agree wholeheartedly about the computer hookup, dead on along the suggestion about power taps and you have something people can grow with and not stick in the closet out of frustration.

I tried to hop in the wayback machine and remeber the days.

Like the masses today. We didnt have a dedicated slot room with deluxe benchwork. Sets were assembled, reconfigured and broken down many times.

Usually right on the carpet, the 'ole pingpong table, or your bedroom floor. We learned to scorn the Gimmick pieces, save for maybe the country bridge, until the chassis started getting lower and high centering became a reality.

Seemed like mom or dad would put up with it for a while. Then the time would come when it was time to "pick that mess up!" The beauty of HO was the table top aspect. The erector set factor was an important feature as well.
Lock and joiner for all it's faults was easy to assem/break down. Better be quick cuz Mom was on the warpath! LOL. It withstood the abuses of youth and test of time.

If there's one drawback to todays track systems it's the delicate nature of the tabs and wangs. A certain amount of prudence is required when setting up or tearing down. Frustrating to kids impatient to race or hustling to put it away cuz Mom sez so! Bust a modern tab or wang and the set is over unless ya got a spare. No kid wants the "Adult supervision required" clause invoked, nor do they have the patience to wait for someone to find time to help them. More busted track these days than there ever was...good for manufacturer's LOL

Cars are faster today and a skoshe bigger. As Joe said 6" radius is out of the question and 9" radius is pushing the edge as well. With todays hi-zoop cars track lengths need to be longer. The days of puttering skillfully along on a tight radius track with a t-jet are long gone. The track system suited the cars. A kid could take a few bites out of his sandwich while waiting for his t-jet to traverse a long basement back stretch. Kids will be kids. thats the law!
If a car does 1200 scale miles an hour their gonna go 1201! Twisty annoying courses just invite more "offs" and dont provide the oppurtunity to stretch the cars out. Providing bank turns at the end of a long chute would also help with the "offs" as well.

A set should come complete! Hence the word set. Perhaps a carefully thought out two lane that could be upgraded to four lane with the additional subset. An additional subset of just straights could be offered to stretch your layout if so desired, either stretching to a huge two lane or medium large four lane. This concept was used with good success by Model RR manufacturer's in Europe.

It may seem redundant, however the theme of the set is very important. No kid wants to be Quincy MD rushing off to yet another homicide! LOL Of course I softballed that for emphasis but you get my drift. Yet the cool factor is paramount to getting them off the shelves. Versatility and an easyway to tailor the set to the individual house hold conditions can only help the cause.

A well thought out expandable set thoughfully created by someone who has a clue would be prefferable to another box of plastic junk thrown in a box for the desperate Xmas crowd. I wish you all the luck in the world Joe!

A certain amount of prudence is required when setting up or tearing down. Frustrating to kids impatient to race or hustling to put it away cuz Mom sez so! Bust a modern tab or wang and the set is over unless ya got a spare.

Is this the answer?

http://www.slotcartracks.net/images/IMG_1761.JPG

http://www.slotcartracks.net/images/IMG_1763.JPG

Agree with Bill, love the 4 lane track. Cars are so fast and sticky that just making it around the track doesn't take the skill it used too. Remember, kids are playing video games that require a lot of eye/hand coordination and timing. Those games are all scored, kids try to beat each other.

I would guess that to appeal to a younger market a set needs a timing system included. Low score/high score, it's in everything they play, and without timing the subtle effects of tuning and modifying cannot be measured by eye. A few hundredths makes all the difference in racing and gaming, sure can't measure it "one-Mississippi, ".

I still say looking backward for an improvement on the same idea isn't the complete answer. The popularity issue isn't all with the track. It's what you integrate with it. Tell me if there was a raceable Daytona set that actually looked like Daytona (hmmm, road course and oval configurations) that it wouldn't sell even if it was $$$$expensive. All these diecast collectors would fall over themselves to have one....

This thread seemed to have split into two discussions--one about track pieces and another about the relevance and profitability of sets.

As far as track pieces go. I would love to be able to add a "dogleg" to my 25' back straight; so I would be all for the 30° curves in 21" and 24" sizes. Plus they could be used on the outside of already available 18" pieces for 90° and 180° curves. The 3½ terminal also would be hugely useful.

As for the Tyco/Tomy debate--you have to make a business decision on this one. All of our club tracks are made from Tomy track. Most of our tracks have either a chicane or 3" hairpin in the layout because most real race tracks have some sort of either and Tomy saw fit to make these pieces.

If you made the pieces I wanted in Tyco and I wanted to add them to my layout, I'd find a way to do it. LifeLikes adapters anyone?


As for the set debate is concerned. I have been in the specialty retail business for over 30 years, not the hobby business, but a similar non-essential leisure activity and HO slot car sets have missed the boat for many of the reasons stated above. Too small in size, too rediculous of a concept and poor marketing are all reasons for a lack of continued success.

You need to have sets that appeal to retailers of all sizes and enough different sets that small retailers can carry different sets than mass merchants. Remember when Sears and JCPenney catalogs had exclusive sets? The same concept can work for Target (1 Target Dodge and another NASCAR racer, or a Target Indy car with another car) and the local hobby shop gets sets with ALMS cars and different track pieces, etc.

How well would a set sell, especially in Europe, with 2 current F1 cars, enough track of the proper length and radii to make a replica of Silverstone or Magny Cours with Lewis Hamilton on the box lid. Aurora used Sterling Moss to sell slot cars in the sixties. How about a set with a couple of current ALMS cars or Corvettes with track to make a Mosport or Watkins Glen with Ron Fellows or Earnhardt Jr. on the box for the North American market. Will kids know who these people are or what the tracks are? Maybe yes--maybe no. But if parents know and buy them for their kids then the learning process begins.

I think the problem with HO in regard to 1/32 is that the variety of cars available in 1/32 is much more based on current racing cars. They have very realistic NASCAR cars, ALMS cars are prevelent, as well as F1 and Indy cars. HO has lagged behind in offering new and correct graphics on cars--even if those graphics were used on old molds. How many different paint/graphic combos can you think of for just about any car?

Our club has been racing for 25 years and in that time there have been many people come and go. You can pretty well predict the life cycle of kids in the club. Between the ages of 8 and 11 they can't wait to race with the club regulars but have to be helped along. By the age of 12 they are really into it and participation and success is at its greatest until about 15 to 16 years of age and most move on to other things. Some come back again--in 10 years or so. But when they come back are there new/current cars to peak their interest? No--there are the same 57 Chevys, just now in pink and purple. Most of us left this hobby for a period of time while doing other life chores, but we all have come back. Keeping the hobby alive involves keeping it current with new product, not only for our generation (read as old guys) but for our kids who will come back to it when they are ready and able.