How big of a sleeve can you get away with running over your sintered rotor to pull more magnetic strength w/o hitting the windings?

is this new???

Pandora's box.....

Ummm Yeah

This does not sound good.

Well it certainly would be easy enough to tech for.

...but would it be illegal?

A sleeve that could be sweat onto the rotor - would it stay put? Would it be a performance enhancement? Or would it be something that would just cause MASS hysteria and scare people? Or would it be the NEXT gotta HAVE accessory for your B/L motor?

....sorry the idea just came up when discussing this messages on the NOVAK exchange thread...

I bought 2 rotors 2 weeks ago, and used the Zubak speed meter to check the magnets, i got the following readings 1186 and 1145.
I also had Mr. Zubak himself check the rotors and he had the same readings as i did.
Rotors are brand new never installed in the motor yet.
Anyone out there seen this.
Looking to get some more info about the brushless stuff.
I also tried another meter and still reads low, i have other rotors that read fine on this meter, just strange that brand new rotors, out of the package read so low.


and somewhere I read a good number should be in the 1250 range...so when guys see something like this - are THEY going to panic..and throw out those rotors and go buy NEW ones? Or can the weak ones have their performance enhanced?

Hey - we could REZAP nonB/L motors and THAT was ok - we had MAGNETIC CAN WRAPS and other things to squeeze the cans and try to 'keep the magnet' IN as performance enhancers over the years...just trying to see what will be the HOT TRICK guys will try to do w/ these things when they are getting beat by 4 or 5 laps and look for an EDGE...

cause MASS hysteria and scare people?

Why not just have a new rotor machined larger??? lmao

Why not just have a new rotor machined larger??? lmao THAT'S Been discussed TOO!

SWtour, if you sleved the rotor, would that not tie the magnetic field together and remove the ability of the sensors to see variation and thus blind the speed control as to where in the rotation the rotor was. Which I believe the key to turning on the 3 phases at the appropriate time during the rotation.

SWtour, if you sleved the rotor, would that not tie the magnetic field together and remove the ability of the sensors to see variation and thus blind the speed control as to where in the rotation the rotor was. Which I believe the key to turning on the 3 phases at the appropriate time during the rotation.

Bingo, sort of!

If you put a sleave made of soft magnetic material over the rotor you'd short the magnetic circuit. The problem would be more basic then blinding the sensors, you'd have no field or little field at the windings and the motor would simply not run or barely run.

Now on the other hand if you didn't use a sleave made entirely of soft magetic material and just had it near the poles you might be able to extend the field outwards some.

Why not just have a new rotor machined larger??? lmao

What people fail to consider is I'm sure Novak did magnetic modeling, motor modeling and physical testing to design the sintered rotor. I doubt they just threw at a dartboard to pick the dimensions of the rotor. Making a significantly stronger rotor may very well hurt overall performance.

For the sake of argument lets say making it stronger would be better. A better way would be to keep the same dimensions and use a stronger grade of Neo material, unless Novak is already using Neo50.

If you actually wanted to increase performance I think the way to do it would be by focusing on creating a lighter rotor while still achieving a similar field strength.

I bought 2 rotors 2 weeks ago, and used the Zubak speed meter to check the magnets, i got the following readings 1186 and 1145.
I also had Mr. Zubak himself check the rotors and he had the same readings as i did.
Rotors are brand new never installed in the motor yet.
Anyone out there seen this.
Looking to get some more info about the brushless stuff.
I also tried another meter and still reads low, i have other rotors that read fine on this meter, just strange that brand new rotors, out of the package read so low.


and somewhere I read a good number should be in the 1250 range...so when guys see something like this - are THEY going to panic..and throw out those rotors and go buy NEW ones? Or can the weak ones have their performance enhanced?


Everything has a tolerance. The accepted tolerance on magnetic material is +/-5% of nominal. There are also tolerances on all of the dimensions of the magnets. This all stacks up, that's reality. If he wants to throw them away I'll send a self addressed stamped envelope and he can just send them to me instead. I'll run them.

Something to keep in mind is that when you're using the Zubak meter the way he intends for you to use it you are measuring the field at the face of the magnet. This gives you the highest resolution possible, but it also gives you the highest error and it also tends to skew the results to show larger differences then what the rotors will have in practice. If you measured the field across the same air gap that it works across in a motor I'll bet you find that the rotors appear much closer to each other then when measuring at the face.

Before anyone even starts rumors about guys having special rotors made realize that magnet manufacturers are not going to make these for anyone. These guys are interested in doing high volumes for real companies on non-standard parts like this. It would be a real trick or REAL expensive to get a magnet manufacturer to make these things in low volume.

yea, I laugh when I see how many sheep bought those 200+ dollar meters. Good for John, He must be related to P.T. Barnum!

yea, I laugh when I see how many sheep bought those 200+ dollar meters. Good for John, He must be related to P.T. Barnum!

What else are you going to spend your money on, when all the brushless motors are the same. So you only need to buy one.

What is available to dyno a brushless motor? Is there a dyno commercially available that is accurate?

The same dynos that do brushed motors can do BL, you just need to run through the speedo. Whether the existing dynos are accurate on anything is a discussion in itself.

if you use a Fantom give the dyno time to cool off between runs. It only has 1 fet and it heats up so doing back to back pulls results in misleading results. Not that the results from a Fantom dyno are particularily good no matter how you use it.

Dynoing the motors is unnecessary though, in my opinion. Most of the fast guys in BL do not have multiple motors etc, contrary to the popular belief of some.

...sorry guys - out here in the WEST "STUPID" rumors have alread created hysteria for B/L racing and we haven't really even gotten into it yet...

Guys are scared of the ZUBIE meter, guys are SCARED of change , Guys are afraid that once again they will be duped into believing a product will be fairly equal..and as soon as they buy it - a NEW BETTER/FASTER/MORE EXPENSIVE version will be available.

Some of the stuff I've read and been told about rotor size was based on the perfomance of the motors being 'adaquate', but at what point is 'adaquate' not GOOD ENOUGH and to WHAT level will the people who have tried to RUIN compeition in R/C Racing over the years..going to go through to 'have the edge'?

I'm busting my butt trying to get B/L accepted out here...and believe me it's an uphill battle.

I'm testing so I have DATA to back up my claims - for instance...too many people say things like

The 13.5 motor is the perfect STOCK replacement motor I've said B.S. the 13.5 motor is a LOT faster than STOCK, and for the guys who are happy with the current STOCK speeds - the 13.5 is TOO fast - if guys want to go faster than CURRENT STOCK SPEEDS let them go to a FASTER CLASS - Don't SPEED UP STOCK or a STOCK equivilant class.

Well guess what - a group decided to try 13.5 out here...and much to their suprise, but exactly what I predicted and preeched the 13.5 class has proved at 3 tracks now to be between 4-6 laps FASTER than the STOCK TQ times.

I do believe the 17.5 motor that we tested for LIPO's will turn out to be a great 4 cell equivilant to current STOCK speeds - but it's only been tested ONCE so far so data is still really raw...but it seems like everytime we turn around someone is making comments that causes our BRUSHED guys to want to stick their heads in a shell and say Sxrew B/L racing...

lotta hype on the motors a guy with a good chassis and a regular motor will always out run a guy with a killer motor and a bad set up, this has always been true since pinewood derby cars!!

..we're not even to the issue of chassis tuning yet - (well of course we are) but this debate is about whether to GO b/l or not...and HOW FAST do we want to go?

A group started playing with the 4300/10.5 motors late last season - several thought this was going to be the 'great equalizing class' and quickly got schooled at HOW fast these motors are in the right hands...so a group wants to slow down a bit - 13.5 may be the option, but the TQ in 13.5 would have qualified like 5th in the 10.5 class...so the STOCK Brushed guys looking at this are saying "No Thank You"

With some guys it's a fine line between 'roping them in' and them QUITTING the hobby.

I'm trying hard to rope them in - we don't need LESS racers.

Guys are scared of the ZUBIE meter, guys are SCARED of change , Guys are afraid that once again they will be duped into believing a product will be fairly equal..and as soon as they buy it - a NEW BETTER/FASTER/MORE EXPENSIVE version will be available.

First, I will say that Zubak's meter is a good looking measurement tool, that does what he says it does.

I posted this before more or less.....
I can test rotors any time I want at work, for free and in my opinion very accurately with better methods then a Gauss meter for this application. That being said I have tested rotors a grand total of 1 time, 2 years ago. I wanted to compare a new bonded rotor to one that had close to a year of hard running. I own a whopping 2 rotors, one for 13.5 and one for 4300.

Here is what I would have to invest to test rotors.......
45 seconds to walk to the lab and plug in the flux meter
10 minutes to wait for it to warm up
1 minute to measure the rotors
$0.00

Yet I still don't test my rotors, which means I must not even consider it worth $0.00 of my money and 11 minutes and 45 seconds of my time.

I own two 13.5 motors one has 30+ race days, the other has half of one race day. They run EXACTLY the same on the track!

I own two 10.5 motors one was bought in 2004 and was run very hot many times with the old bonded rotor. The other has maybe a total of 10 battery packs through it, all with the sintered rotor. They run EXACTLY the same on the track.

As a side note, I do take my racing relatively seriously and always show up at the track with the goal of winning.

I don't know what else someone can say. :wave:

...good dialog guys keep it coming...

Something else I would like to know - is ANYONE actually competitive w/ a BONDED ROTOR motor in 13.5 or 10.5 against an equal driver using a sintered?

If so how are you gearing it differently or setting up your car different?

I'm telling our guys since they don't have b/l yet - don't waste your money on the bonded - go sintered from the get go...however I actually have in my pile of 'loaner' motors both types and depending on who I'm loaning them to as far as driver caliber is how I decide who borrows what.

I've run bonded and felt I never hit the sweet spot and got 100% out of it - but next time I ran the same track I ran the sintered and was faster out of the gate...(but was it because I had NOTES or because the motor was better?)

lotta hype on the motors a guy with a good chassis and a regular motor will always out run a guy with a killer motor and a bad set up, this has always been true since pinewood derby cars!!

Exactly ...This past weekend at Metro Speedway ...I went there a month ago ans anyone that was there would have told you I looked like a Money fing a Football...No lie and I agreed ...I was around4 Laps off Gary Hamilton ...This time when I got there Friday ...Guess What I was still 4 laps off ..56-57 Lap Runs ,,Gary Runs at least 60 every time and Mostly 61...I asked Gary his Rollout ..He showed me his car ...I put that on mine and never took it off again ...Kept working on the CAr ..And Myself and Gary ended up breaking the track record ...He went 62@5:01 I went 62@5:03 Way faster than where I was ..

Humpty DID look good this weekend - and Gary H. is GREAT at giving his setup away and helping make a race out on the track.

Jeff may have had something for Gary in the main - but he lost 1/2 of his wing and it took a couple laps for him to figure out how to drive it with no rear downforce I'm guessing.

so you guys are telling me if i get my car fast in the corners i won't need to buy 35 rotors and new batteries every month? holy smokes!!LOL


in 08 if yo do not own a brushless system in florida you may not be able to race.

look at the last few big oval events in 2 races there have been a total of 7 19 turn entries. ouch!

I saw Jamie Hanson's rotor on the zubie meter at the Freddies race and his was nothing special numbers wise. He laid it to em pretty good in both 13.5 and 4300.
Also watched tech and his 4300 motor was a 28 on the inductance meter which for ARCOR purposes 24 is the lowest acceptible rating so nothing was fishy with his stuff.

One thing I did notice was how much corner speed his cars had setup wise.

and you guys told me that brushless would never take off, sheesh!so you guys are telling me if i get my car fast in the corners i won't need to buy 35 rotors and new batteries every month? holy smokes!!LOL


in 08 if yo do not own a brushless system in florida you may not be able to race.

look at the last few big oval events in 2 races there have been a total of 7 19 turn entries. ouch!

Ok. I have read enough of this stuff. A few posts up Erock spoke of my car in the corners. That is where a race is won and lost no matter what the class. I moved from Michigan to the east coast a year ago. Brushless was non-exsistant out here, and stock was the big class. I have decent batteries and ok motors, but was always off in stock. I had a few of the fastest stock drivers in the US check motors for me and they were great. But again, still off the pace. Which leads to the point, it is setup. It has always been that way no matter what class is being run.
Brushless has made setup even more important though. People are scarred of brushless because of false statements being made. I have done LOTS of testing with different rotors, motor timing. I have dyno tested, checked inductance of the cans, and the reading of rotors on the Zubie meter.
On track testing........I started with batteries. I took a 1.236 voltage pack and a 1.242 pack ran back to back. 4:00.027 and 4:00.036. Pretty cool isn't it. Big batts #'s are cool to have but not needed. Next I moved on to rotors. I took a 1267 rotor on the meter and ran it next to an 1145 rotor. It was a .02 difference on the track. On a CE turbo dyno timing does change RPM and torque. From timing all the way down 15,400 rpm and timing all the way up 17,002. 2.5 teeth different on the track.
I am done ranting now. I just wanted to get the point across, I have done all the test for you. Setup is the key. You don't need the best batts or highest # rotors. For a lot of guys it is just piece of mind and bragging rights. Dyno racing back in the day is now rotor strength. I had numerous people aproach me saying "You have found something with brushless motors that I have not." My response is, I will trade with you right now. My motor for yours. No one has taken me up on the offer.
I hope this sets some peoples minds at ease. If ANYONE has any questions about this, feel free to send me an email or PM.

Brushless has made setup even more important though. People are scarred of brushless because of false statements being made. I have done LOTS of testing with different rotors, motor timing. I have dyno tested, checked inductance of the cans, and the reading of rotors on the Zubie meter.....

I am done ranting now. I just wanted to get the point across, I have done all the test for you. Setup is the key. You don't need the best batts or highest # rotors. For a lot of guys it is just piece of mind and bragging rights. Dyno racing back in the day is now rotor strength. I had numerous people aproach me saying "You have found something with brushless motors that I have not." My response is, I will trade with you right now. My motor for yours. No one has taken me up on the offer.
I hope this sets some peoples minds at ease. If ANYONE has any questions about this, feel free to send me an email or PM.

So true. So true....

Set-up and driving ability---the things you can't buy.

Ok. I have read enough of this stuff. A few posts up Erock spoke of my car in the corners. That is where a race is won and lost no matter what the class. I moved from Michigan to the east coast a year ago. Brushless was non-exsistant out here, and stock was the big class. I have decent batteries and ok motors, but was always off in stock. I had a few of the fastest stock drivers in the US check motors for me and they were great. But again, still off the pace. Which leads to the point, it is setup. It has always been that way no matter what class is being run.
Brushless has made setup even more important though. People are scarred of brushless because of false statements being made. I have done LOTS of testing with different rotors, motor timing. I have dyno tested, checked inductance of the cans, and the reading of rotors on the Zubie meter.
On track testing........I started with batteries. I took a 1.236 voltage pack and a 1.242 pack ran back to back. 4:00.027 and 4:00.036. Pretty cool isn't it. Big batts #'s are cool to have but not needed. Next I moved on to rotors. I took a 1267 rotor on the meter and ran it next to an 1145 rotor. It was a .02 difference on the track. On a CE turbo dyno timing does change RPM and torque. From timing all the way down 15,400 rpm and timing all the way up 17,002. 2.5 teeth different on the track.
I am done ranting now. I just wanted to get the point across, I have done all the test for you. Setup is the key. You don't need the best batts or highest # rotors. For a lot of guys it is just piece of mind and bragging rights. Dyno racing back in the day is now rotor strength. I had numerous people aproach me saying "You have found something with brushless motors that I have not." My response is, I will trade with you right now. My motor for yours. No one has taken me up on the offer.
I hope this sets some peoples minds at ease. If ANYONE has any questions about this, feel free to send me an email or PM.


Nice post Jamie... You have officially replaced Mr. Racknor as my new hero... :thumbsup:

Nice post Jamie... You have officially replaced Mr. Racknor as my new hero... :thumbsup:
who's he mr. racknor has gone to the dirt and getting his butt handed to him by mr. dean who also was whipping him at the end of the carpet season. i think he better go to 1/4 scale to see if he can whip anyone there or maybe offroad. god i love this.

...somewhere there's a guy sitting in a corner with a smile on his face...

THANKS GUYS -

YELP !.........Zubak........... :tongue:

all this talk about motors but is there anything that can be done to the speed control??????

ran a 13.5 at freddies and i was out to lunch but this weekend got to run at a track i know and was very impressed with the speed of the 13.5 now its time to work work work and find setups so we can gun for the brushless big dog of the orl

Jamie you are sooooo right, I just sit here and read about this guys changing timing, changing rotors and have a new special motor and I too just laugh, it's all in the setup. You are the guy who can run the same line every lap and that is the key to going fast as well as having the car setup so it doesn't scrub in the corners. CHASSIS SETUP IS THE NAME OF THE GAME.

I still think this brushless thing will take off some day LMAO.

Jamie,

It's funny because we were discussing the "he found something" subject at the Mill last week. We knew it was not motor and decided that we had to change our 19T mindset on chassis setup and come up with something new for 4300/10.5. As amazing as it sounds it actually worked. Get through the corner and you can use the momentum for more straightline speed.

Peter

Jamie your just the man and I will be glad to get my Hiney handed to me by you on Sunday at Seaford . :wave:

This just goes to show that there is always somthing going on to make racing more expensive.
I thought per all the brushless sites we all read that no body wanted a motor or ESC of the month and keep it as close a possable.
Why is it when ever a new class gets started it is supposed to cost less but people cannot keep their hands and ideas out of the equasion and always have to find ways to enhance their equipment. I also believe this to cause attendance to drop as well as getting new racers to join any club or series due to this.
I will personally start running my tekin equipment reguardless of the recommendations or rules if things like this keep going on why not allow them since the Novak stuff is always being messed with .
I think Novak needs to make the motors and keep them where they cannot be taken apart seal them up and leave it that way.

......I will personally start running my tekin equipment reguardless of the recommendations or rules if things like this keep going on why not allow them since the Novak stuff is always being messed with .
I think Novak needs to make the motors and keep them where they cannot be taken apart seal them up and leave it that way.

I'm not sure what you mean by "messed with". We have been working to help the leagues and clubs level the playing field for BL by providing motor teching data and spec winds. Only the clubs can enforce rules that disallow tampering with the motors. Novak could provide sealed cans, but right now Novak has the only motor that the user can easily repair and continue using, without having to replace the entire motor.

Novak also has a trade-in/upgrade policy for all of its motors that allows users to return motors and exchange for a different wind rmf motor, if needed. This would not be possible with a sealed can that could not be remanufactured.

As far as I know, Tekin has not yet released any motors designed to stock specs---or any other 540 BL motors. And they have no testing, replacement, or upgrade policies in place.

Tim,

Actually - one of the reasons to push for a SINGLE legal mfg. is to detour things being tampered with that nobody would know was tampered with. With the premise of using just a single approved motor - teching for oddities will be fairly easy, but if we have to look at 1/2 dozen different BRANDS of motors, and STYLES..then a Tech director needs a College Education is Brushless Motor technology...

1 motor mfg = equals DRIVERS having to have a good car setup.

3 - 4 option motors allows class structure in different SPEEDS catering to virtually all driver ability levels.

Brushless Motors vs. Brushed Motors = LESS motor maintenance & LESS overall expense that can be shifted to things like TIRES, Travel Expenses, you name it. (No racers won't SAVE MONEY - cause RACERS will just spend their savings on another area...)

anybody got any use for a box of batteries - some nearly 20 years old & a box of old MOTORS and MOTOR Parts - some of these over 15 years old too? I have probably a 35-40 lb. box of batteries, and about the same in weight of old motor STUFF... I can't wait to get to LIPO BRUSHLESS

Guys please remember this is a "TOOL" for your box to help you seperate stronger rotors from weaker one's, I did'nt try to re-invent the ROCK here, I sat down in my race room one night and looked in my motor box and said which one of these 8 rotors is the best one???????????????????????? And a Light went on!! This isen't some scam, or conspiricy, they work and they do just as i've promised, each one will read slightly different just as Turbo 35 do, His arms were reading very low, I even checked them on my meter and confirmed it....And finally, Keep this in mind...."If this product would of been manufactured by "Much More" or any other Large company, some of the Verbal Shots i've herd would have never of take place!!! It's upsetting that all racers just can't support a fellow racer efforts in a New product, even if you choose not to buy one? Anyway's, SWTOUR, if I can help you in anyway, just PM me and I'll do my best to get you where you need to be. ZUBAK PS....Pat, Good luck this weekend at the Tri-Clone!!

sprintr64

You can run your tekin system in mod in the SWT.


I think Novak needs to make the motors and keep them where they cannot be taken apart seal them up and leave it that way.

Shouldn't we as racers be allowed to clean and inspect our motors for possible problems

As for the "Modifying" of a brushless motor, what type of modifications are you talking about? Kind of hard to remove winds from a brushless motor.

As for teching Novak motors, Novak has a chart that gives the LCR readings(henry) for the different motors. As SWT said one motor makes it easy to tech, no worries about hybrid motors or any other funny stuff.

... I can't wait to get to LIPO BRUSHLESS

Joe,
Right on!

Jamie we all know that it's not all motor Arnie had to pound it in my head for three years that chassis was 80% of how fast you go.

Joe,
I'm talking about sleeving, windings, machine the rotors and what ever misc people can think of doing to get more out of brushless equipment.
My whole point is when we as club racers are told we need to run a motor and or ESC brushless or brushed sombody always finds a way to do something to get them faster ( Kisbey 19 T ). I have been told that someone out their has found a way to remove windings from the brushless system true or not but with the BRL, SWT and other clubs running specific rules and equipment to make a fair playing field why do we insist on trying to do things to the motors ? that is all I'm stateing that is why I responded to your idea of sleeving the rotors. I'm a believer in chassis setups being 80 to 90 % of the speed and as well as the drive line and driver.I think when people start believing the brushless systems make life easier so they can focus on setup and adjustments as well as the driving part of racing. I get angry when people start cheating or try to and lets face it their are some who have the mind set it is not cheating if you do not get caught, either way when it becomes mandatory I hope their are some techs out their who can spot any tampered motors. I'm not saying anything bad towards Novak or Tekin I suggested we do somthing to the cans or internal parts to make sure that any modifications made can be spotted ASAP instead of just looking threw a side vent and checking tags. I also thought that this whole brushless thing was to save a racer money but from what I have seen from changes and rumors about the rotors it is still costing racers big $. The thing is this is my opinion and I'm not bad mouthing the mfg so do not take it that way. I'm suggesting that when motors are finalized for a class do somthing to them so it can be identified that parts have been changed or if somthing gets modified it can be noticed in the tech inspection.

Tim,

My whole point with this thread is that HYPE and FEAR will always steer the direction a racer goes...especially a racer who is NOT on the top of his game.

For 22 years I've heard guys who CAN'T win against top level drivers complain that it's because those drivers are CHEATING...and in that 22 year period we HAVE caught several cheaters, but as a whole...that number would be in a single digit percentage based on the number of allegations.

Racing is one of those things where 90+% of the participants are ALWAYS looking for an EDGE.

In brushed motor racing it's SPRINGS, SPRING TENSION, BRUSH MODIFICATION with Cuts, Drilled Holes, LayDown, Timed, Drops, compounds, and more.

With batteries - it's Charging and Discharging methods...dead shorting, not dead shorting, high amp charging, or what ever...

Then you have the guys who do things like FREEZE their motors, or spray their motors with FREEZE spray.

and None of this is any different than having the RIGHT Body, body angle, wing and/or wing angle...tire compound...springs, shock oils, battery placement, etc.

It's ALL in the quest to go FASTER - then add to that a NEW ESC, or Charger, or Receiver, some are bought because they are smaller and lighter, reducing the MASS of the car...some actually prove to be NO BETTER but because of HYPE and the thought that a NEW product MAY make someone faster...it gets purchased.

...these are just the way things are in 'RACING' - not just R/C racing - but in ALL racing.

Long and short of it is "PEOPLE NEED TO SPEND LESS TIME WORRYING ABOUT ALL THE B.S. and HYPE and WORK ON THEIR CAR and DRIVING"

If you are NOT getting 100% out of the equipment you are using...then worrying about what someone else is doing is a waste of your time.

In general, a perfect example of this would be to take a SLOW car that someone can't get into the "A" main with...and talk one of the TOP lever drivers into taking a look at it - and running it in a qualifier...I betcha that driver doesn't go SLOW with it...

If you are NOT getting 100% out of the equipment you are using...then worrying about what someone else is doing is a waste of your time.

You are a philosopher!

We could apply this understanding to so many areas of our lives.

Long and short of it is "PEOPLE NEED TO SPEND LESS TIME WORRYING ABOUT ALL THE B.S. and HYPE and WORK ON THEIR CAR and DRIVING"

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

Don't mind me, just going to ramble now.......

RC has indeed been a frustrating trek for me. (particularly oval racing) I have been racing since 82 and the "HYPE" kills it for me on intervals. (hype meaning cutting the legal corners off everywhere one can and/or the motor/battery connection) and if you don't have the "HYPE" connection, why race is the attitude that overtakes me. but I love racing almost more than my wife, thats why I come back when "fool proof" or simplified oval classes come out. I have alway tried to build legal cars and never tried to twist the the wording on the rules. (i.e.: if the rule doesn't mention it, it's illegal)

brushless seemed like a "fool proof" class again. I'm not saying I would be the leader in a perfectly level field, but at least I would know where I stand at the end of the day and I'm ok with that, I'm a big boy now. this is why road racing is so much better than oval to me, all the battery, motor and car in the world won't put you out front, it's pure racing and driver.

not entirely the case with oval racing, I've seen some clearly diverse things happen on the oval over the years. and thats neither here or there, brushless is why I'm back. batteries seem to have finally overcome the track almost eliminating the battery war, but now all this talk about playing with rotors and so on is starting to jerk my chain. it's a tough enough job getting a car to work well with conditions and be up on the wheel in good form. this is exactly why people either don't get into rc racing or don't stay.

anyway, bla bla bla bla! you know the routine. ain't nothin new.... :freak:

The meter will catch the cheater and it's simple to use.Joe,
I'm talking about sleeving, windings, machine the rotors and what ever misc people can think of doing to get more out of brushless equipment.
My whole point is when we as club racers are told we need to run a motor and or ESC brushless or brushed sombody always finds a way to do something to get them faster ( Kisbey 19 T ). I have been told that someone out their has found a way to remove windings from the brushless system true or not but with the BRL, SWT and other clubs running specific rules and equipment to make a fair playing field why do we insist on trying to do things to the motors ? that is all I'm stateing that is why I responded to your idea of sleeving the rotors. I'm a believer in chassis setups being 80 to 90 % of the speed and as well as the drive line and driver.I think when people start believing the brushless systems make life easier so they can focus on setup and adjustments as well as the driving part of racing. I get angry when people start cheating or try to and lets face it their are some who have the mind set it is not cheating if you do not get caught, either way when it becomes mandatory I hope their are some techs out their who can spot any tampered motors. I'm not saying anything bad towards Novak or Tekin I suggested we do somthing to the cans or internal parts to make sure that any modifications made can be spotted ASAP instead of just looking threw a side vent and checking tags. I also thought that this whole brushless thing was to save a racer money but from what I have seen from changes and rumors about the rotors it is still costing racers big $. The thing is this is my opinion and I'm not bad mouthing the mfg so do not take it that way. I'm suggesting that when motors are finalized for a class do somthing to them so it can be identified that parts have been changed or if somthing gets modified it can be noticed in the tech inspection.

This stuff is too funny as always.

I just got home from the BRL outdoor Nationals. Great race with lots of competition and many Nation Championships represented in the field. Guess what, as always, no one appeared to have a horsepower advantage over anyone else.

Motors weren't torn down, because there was no reason to tear motors down.

NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING TO THEM

Has anyone noticed that you never hear anything negative about brushless from those of us who actually competitively race it? Some of us have been running these things since 2004, they aren't new. No one who is winning is cheating, PERIOD! Even beyond that no one who actually races thinks the guys who are winning are cheating.

This winter there will be 8 races total where you can show up and expect to have to race against 50 guys in your class. One of them will be Snowbirds and the other 7 will be the BRL races. Hmmmmmmmm why do people think that might be?

pmsimkins, thats good to hear. those are encouraging statistics you have noted. thanks for the heads up!!