I would like racers insight as to why they think 40 Amp matching would be better? Im looking hard at it but im leaning on staying at 35 Amp.I have been doing some testing and I as a matcher don't know if it's the way I want to go.I might stick with 35. Looking forward to hearing your responses.This is open for discussion no matter what batteries you have in your ride. Thanks Justin

Other then giving more represtative numbers for mod racers and maybe weeding out a couple of cells here and there I don't see it doing much of anything. It's just a way for Competition Electronics to sell new matchers, which is fine.

I would look at it like this too, discharging at 40 amps instead of 35 is going to take less time. I think it would be a benefit to the matcher to cycle at 40 just for the time savings over say 100 cells a piece.

Other then giving more represtative numbers for mod racers and maybe weeding out a couple of cells here and there I don't see it doing much of anything. It's just a way for Competition Electronics to sell new matchers, which is fine.

The single reason that convinced me to cycle/match all my cells at 40A now is exactly the same reason I went from 30A to 35A.

Improved match accuracy ... 4 identical cells at 35A will not generate identical performance results once cycled at 40A, the weaker cells are filtered down.
What can the new CE Matcher 8 do for you? The new CE Matcher 8 were built and designed specifically for the exact purpose Matchers use it for: Individual cell training/grading. It has features that relinquishes the older CE Matcher 4 to stone age! The single most valuable benefit of the CE Matcher 8 for the racer is cell grading accuracy.

Steve.
TQ Cells

why 40, why not 50, 60....does the added strain / heating really give you any more information? with each new version of cells being more and more fragile, i would question putting any more stress on the cells. it's really the heat cycling that degrades the performance. so going to higher discharge rate only decreases the performance of the cell over it's life, its like buying a cell that has already been run.

... so going to higher discharge rate only decreases the performance of the cell over it's life, its like buying a cell that has already been run.

... 'Man ... I usually value your opinion ... have you tested cells at 40A? Have you monitored how much more heat is generated from the cells being discharged at 40A versus 35A?

I did.

You can always go back to 20A cycle match:p

The CE equipment now offer 40A ... I've tested it ... bench and track ... they take it no problem. These Intellect cells take the 40A like a walk in the park.

The single problem Intellect is working hard at to solve is a percentage of the cells self discharging to 0V. It has nothing to do with the load we put on the cells. The math is simple ... on virgin cells I get ... I usually filter approx. 5% that are already at 0V from the factory ... once the cycle match at 40A is completed I usually added 0-1% no more. Some other cells will short later on ... These cells that will short ... will short anyway ... it is the nature of the beast we currently play with. We could always go back to 1.18 cells at 35A on wich 0V wasn't an issue ... but that's another topic.

Steve.

steve, i posted b4 you stated that you HAVE seen a difference. my only concern would be the heating during cycling, regardless of amp draw. when i cycle my stuff, they always get way hotter than in the car because there is no airflow cooling them. i always applaud trying something different, as long as the plus outweighs the minus. the heating is a result of the effective resistance of the cell, both chemical as well as material conduction, so increasing the current from 35 to 40A, a current increase of 14% increases the heating effect by 30%.

steve, do you do anything in your shop as far as climate control? do you see any reason why we dont cycle at even higher current, like 100A, other than avaliable equipment? do you think there is some limit where you wouldnt see any added gain?

I think on a personal level we 'racers' want to get 100% out of our batteries every run.

At least those of us who ran on the older batteries that you could legitimately kill in 4 minutes.

I remember Red 1400 SCR's if you dumped them based on TIME instead of AMPS (after carefully adjusting the load to get the desired time) they averaged 23 amps for roughly 240 - 250 seconds.

If you were to KILL a 4200 pack in 240 seconds - HOW MANY amps does it take?

Some would say - WHY would you test that way? But - running MOD you see guys DUMP at every race - therefore they HAVE to be pulling at LEAST that many amps right? Well, if your going to pull it - it's nice to know what your VOLTAGE is doing through the run at that kind of load...

The downside to this practice is I'm sure it shortens the life of the batteries - to give a few guys a 1-2% advantage...but HOW many cells are destroyed along the way - causing the Selling Price per cell - and the handling time LONGER also adding to raising the price of the batteries?

As a follow up question/comment...
It would seem to me, that the MATCHER may get better results
from the 40A discharge, perhaps, and therefore give the customer
a better pack.
However, this does not necessarily mean that the packs have to
be discharged at 40A, once they are in the end users' hands?
I mean, the packs have already been matched, and have withstood
a 'beating' to 'weed out' sissy cells.
There shouldn't be any need to continue discharging at such a high
rate, is there? I mean, 'we' aren't matching... 'we' are just equalizing,
before charging.. I thought one of the things that the nimh cells did
not do, was develop a memory.. So we shouldn't feel compelled to discharge
at more than 30A, for example.. should we?

I agree that 40 will find some of the weaker cells just as going to 30 and then 35 has but with the IB cells being so weak and short on life already I personally do not feel that 40 will do any good for us at this time. Speed up the process.....yes, make longer lasting cells.......absolutely not. In fact I tell my customers not to discharge over 25 when done with their packs because the harder they are dumped, the shorter the life. Especially in the runtime department. Hard dumps are bad on runtime. Doesnt hurt voltage so much but the runtime will suffer and in 4300 & up you need the runtime in most cases.

Now this is not to say that what others have said here is out right wrong. Everyone has there feeling on this but you really have to consider the quality of the cells these days when factoring it all in. And then decide if it is worth it to the racing or racers.

Rob @ Windtunnel

Hmm Interesting! Thats what this thread is all about. I definently understand the time savings. I understand the TM 8 is a superior piece of Equipment. I also understand that weeding weaker cells is a good thing.Im just not convinced that the cell we are working with can take 3 to 4 cycles at 40 Amps and not get hurt in the process.About the only cars that pull that kind of amperage on the track are MOD guys and they seem to need new packs sooner then the rest running Brushless and stock.Also if a cell is gonna be weak at 40 I think it is safe to say that same cell will have trouble at 35.Is there a point were a cell might not take any more then the what we are cycling it at now? Maybe that number is 35 Amps and not 40Amps Time will tell. Alot of good points already.. Thanks Steve for chimming in that is what this thread is about.. Justin

What would be more interesting then the advertising off the front page of the website would be some actual data.

Maybe Steve can throw a spreadsheet on here showing us the numbers from say a 100 cells done at 35A on the old matcher and then the same 100 done at 40A on the new matcher. I'd like to see just how many of the cells that were good at 35A are now mediocre at 40A.

I'm no matcher but doesnt higher matching/discharge rate actually DECREASE accuraccy? Wouldnt a shorter discharge window make the cells SEEM like you were getting a closer match, when really the cells are lloking more alike because of less resolution? Basically if you discharged 10 4200 cells in 60 seconds they would look much more similar to each other than the same 10 cells discharged at 20 amps? My fear is that marchers are mistaking this smaller discharge window for greater accuracy.

I would like to see the 'voltage' numbers we see on 'matched' packs changed to actually read 3 numbers.

Voltage @ 10 seconds of discharge
Voltage @ 120 seconds of discharge
Voltage @ 240 seconds of discharge

(actually since we do ALL of our racing - even MOD at 5 minutes - my preferred would be at 150 seconds and 300 seconds)

30 AMP numbers is fine - 35 is better..

Swt. I Do Cycling At 30 Amp. More Important I Look At What My Volts Are At 300 Secs.

From my testing 40 amp does not give you a more accuarate match. What gives you a more accuarate match is the new cell holder!! You can cycle cells on the new cell holder after they have stabilized and they do not flucuate very much at all. Put them on a T4-35 with old cell holders and they can change a lot from one cycle to the next.

Now the new TM-8's are easier to use, more adjustable, faster, and a LOT easier to get the data to a printer. But the accuaracy comes from the cell holders them self. Danny tested them for a long time before they were released and was the first to have some TM4/35's updated with the new cell holders and he noticed the differecne right off the bat.

EA

It will make you have to buy batteries more often....
How many times during a discharge cycle do you hear a cell vent?
And, how hot do they get at a 30 amp discharge?

Cycling has no effect on performance anymore, it only allows you to weed out your "weak" packs, if you discharge them at 20 or 40, it is the same thing. Just less chance of smoking a cell at 20. As long as you keep cycling at the same discharge rate, you will know what packs to keep and what to toss!

Maintenance is important to lentghen the life of your cells and keep the numbers up.
My opinion is the harder they are Zapped and discharged from the start will only lessen the life of the cells.
However I do agree with it weeding out the weak cells.

Just my .02

It will make you have to buy batteries more often....
How many times during a discharge cycle do you hear a cell vent?


Intellect has been working on the cells and the newest batches have been excellent. not too many venting cells

R.N.

Intellect has been working on the cells and the newest batches have been excellent. not too many venting cells

R.N.


:freak: There's a Statement i have heard now for about 2 years :hat: LOL

The single problem Intellect is working hard at to solve is a percentage of the cells self discharging to 0V. It has nothing to do with the load we put on the cells. The math is simple ... on virgin cells I get ... I usually filter approx. 5% that are already at 0V from the factory ... Steve.
I've heard guys having success dead shorting the WC4200s. Maybe you can sell these as "pre-dead-shorted" cells :devil:

I've heard guys having success dead shorting the WC4200s. Maybe you can sell these as "pre-dead-shorted" cells :devil:

yeah..."no tray and wire needed"

AT 40 amp discharge I fined i have more punch off the line

AT 40 amp discharge I fined i have more punch off the line

<<<you have no idea what your talking about obviously>>>

wow....real nice nickname!!

guys...its simply evolution...todays cells are having a LOT more capacity than yesterdays scr1700 or gp3300...as capacity of the cells grows...the amp of matching machine is also...it will be funny to read this in5 years...when all cells will be matched at 50amps!!

Eric

better yet, not matching them at all! And everyone wonders where all of the racers have gone, lol.

...it will be funny to read this in5 years...when all cells will be matched at 50amps!!
Eric

Or in 1 year, when the then "hottest thing de jour"
comes out.... :drunk:

I havent run the cells much, but with the lack of a lifespan the cells already have, wouldnt a harder starting discharge rate reduce the usable performance of the cells??? IE kill them faster??

the idea is that if one can find the best cells to one's ability, then it is worth the reduced life for the extra edge. i dont have a battery sponsor, and i still buy new packs after they have 15-20 runs on them.

To find out which of your friends is the toughest...

Feed them all 12 beers and beat them with a bat.
The last one standing is the toughest...except now he is drunk and has a broken skull.

Chris - don't you make your own batteries? LOL.

I'm sure everybody made the same comments when matching went from 10amp to 20 amps. It's easy to bash the 40 amp discharge when only a few companies out there can offer it and the rest don't have the equipment to do it yet.

Walter,

When I had GONZO packs matched at 10 Amps...I didn't know what an amp was, but I was also delivering papers before school! I wasn't bashing Steve or his process - I'm just a slave to sarcasm. It's a good time of year to figure all of this out before real racing starts - HAHA!

Walter,

When I had GONZO packs matched at 10 Amps...I didn't know what an amp was, but I was also delivering papers before school! I wasn't bashing Steve or his process - I'm just a slave to sarcasm. It's a good time of year to figure all of this out before real racing starts - HAHA!
wow jason real racing goes on all summer its just most of us are not worried about a few scraches on the chassies like you boys from up north. and im not talking about the brothers from way north because i see them in seaford every year and we all have a blast.. now we will just see this weekend how good the boys from the neot are on the black stuff.. see you in september when the (real racing starts) :wave: :wave:

wow jason real racing goes on all summer :wave: :wave:

Yes Brock, but up here it's on Dirt (continued sarcasm). Not as fortunate as you guys in PA - you are surrounded by more miles of R/C asphalt than highways. Anyway, hope to see you guys before Sept. but if not I'll ask Heath to pit me between you and the big guy...ooooohh the Shenanigans we will play!

Jason

Some sarcasm is needed on a day to day basis it's keeps the board exciting since we only race these things for 16min a race day if that. But sometimes the comments go to far. The original intent of this post that was started to ask a question and people have made their statements and hopefully it only stays that way.

Jason, I wish you would go back to delivering newspaper around here because my paper delivery person sucks and if the paper was here before I came to work I wouldn't need to be on here so much.

Brock is right, there is plenty of real racing going on down here all year. You should come down and have fun with us.

I have a reservation at the Behler residence for the Aug. 19th race. We'll be on vacation in OCM Aug. 11-18. Need to talk to the wife about swingin' inland a little more on the way home!

Nice!

wow jason real racing goes on all summer its just most of us are not worried about a few scraches on the chassies like you boys from up north. and im not talking about the brothers from way north because i see them in seaford every year and we all have a blast.. now we will just see this weekend how good the boys from the neot are on the black stuff.. see you in september when the (real racing starts) :wave: :wave:
Lets not get intoReal Racing on asphalt! HAHA :wave:

Lets not get intoReal Racing on asphalt! HAHA :wave:

Sounds super.... :thumbsup:

Real racing is on DIRT!!!

Real racing is on DIRT!!!
Yup Good Deal!

Real racing is on DIRT!!!

Asphalt is for racin'
Dirt is for plantin' taters... :p

Walter you should make the SOS race at maximus

Real racing is on DIRT!!!
dirt is for planting your wifes flowers :hat:

dirt is for planting your wifes flowers :hat:

Or just planting your wife period,LOL!

ahahaha!

About the only cars that pull that kind of amperage on the track are MOD guys and they seem to need new packs sooner then the rest running Brushless and stock. Justin

We draw way more than 40 amps if you think about it...If you cycle cells at 35 and get some 450-460 runtime packs, but we're dumping them in or around 240 sec. (For Valentine it's usually 205 sec.) then we're killing these packs. Also, not for nothing but at the amperage that we're pulling these packs down in Mod, we ususlly lose 20-30 sec. total runtime each run. That's why it's pretty crusial to have new packs every run at a race like the birds.....Another side note, the associated boys had close to (If I heard right, and I'm 99% sure I did) 70-80 packs on hand between the 3 of them at this past race...... :cool:

johnson, you're dumping a pack in a 4 minute stock race?!!! i believe valentine does, but then again he is always pinned up 5 or 6 from what he tells you...lol

No, I'm usually good for 3:55-4:05 minutes depending who I'm running for.....But, that's when Hauenstein isn't totalling my Mod cars in practice, and I get to run a Mod race..... :eek: :D

I just noticed that the new ce 40a cycler costs approx $2000, I wonder how this will affect the price of batteries as more cyclers are forced to adapt.

So far as per this thread I am not seeing many go to the 40A but hey if they want to they can I really doubt it makes prices go up much.........