A while back, I posted a thread about how the "official" Warp Factor formula from STAR TREK TOS didn't match what was shown onscreen. I was watching "Bread and Circuses" and at the beginning they give some definite figures. Chekov says that the planet is 1/16 of a parsec away and they'll be there "in seconds." They arrive at the planet 30 seconds later. Now I know screen time doesn't neccessarily equal real time, but the action seemed to be continuous and Chekov did not say "in about a minute." So we can assume that the ship is traveling at about 1/8 parsec per minute. Some simple multiplication, and you come up with the speed as being--

about 200,000 times the speed of light.

In other words, about a thousand times the official warp 6 velocity. Or using that formula, it is about warp 60.

This means that it would only take a little over 10 minutes to get from Earth to Alpha Centauri. And less than 6 months to travel across the galaxy. Unfortunately, this invalidates most episodes that depend on the Enterprise being the only ship in the sector. Not to mention the entire Voyager series.

But we know that everything on-screen is sacrosanct. So how do we explain this? I've come up with four possibilities:

1) Although it was never dealt with, Warp Drive creates time dilation effects. Although only 30 seconds passed on board, to an outside observer, it would take about 8 hours.

2) The WF cubed x the speed of light formula only applies to deep space. Relativity tells us that large masses warp space, so maybe when they are near a star, this multiples the warp effect.

3) Sometime between now and TOS, the definition of "parsec" was redefined to a much smaller distance.

4) Chekov misread the readout, mixing up parsecs and lightdays. No one on the bridge wanted to embarass him by pointing out his obvious mistake.

My feeling is that it went really fast.

My feeling is that it went really fast.

Any craft that can make a "wooosh!" sound in deep space must be fast!

- GJS

4) Chekov misread the readout, mixing up parsecs and lightdays. No one on the bridge wanted to embarass him by pointing out his obvious mistake.
Here's my vote. :)

Seriously, tho, I don't read too far in to the whole warp scale theory any more. I gave that up about... oh... 1978 or so when I got my first copy of the Star Fleet Technical Manual. A friend and I sat down and tried to do some calculations, similar to what you've done and quickly realized that the show wasn't perfect. We were very depressed - for about a day. Then we picked up a copy of Bjo Trimbles Star Trek Concordance and some models to distract us. Hey, we were only 11 or 12, so we were easily distracted with Oh Shiney! stuff like that. :D

The fastest the E went was about warp factor 11 in the episode The Changling thanks to nomad. I think but I could be off by a couple of numbers.

Any craft that can make a "wooosh!" sound in deep space must be fast!

- GJS

In the original series, only during the opening credits. Every other time you only heard orchestral music.

Unless orchestral music is the true indication you're going fast.

The fastest the E went was about warp factor 11 in the episode The Changling thanks to nomad. I think but I could be off by a couple of numbers.
Could be wrong, but didn't she get up to warp 14 in the ep That Which Survives? Also due to external meddling...

[QUOTE=BEBruns]
3) Sometime between now and TOS, the definition of "parsec" was redifined to a much smaller distance.


Well, you can't do that, because a Paralax second is a very specific measurement based upon earth's orbit.

HOWEVER - a paralax second based on the orbit of a different planet WILL be a different distance than an "earth parsec." If a planet's orbit is closer to its sun than Earth's, that planet's parsec measurement will be smaller than ours.

So maybe Chekov learned navigation on Vulcan, and was using Vulcan parsecs? :D

There's also the fact that our parsec is based on Earth's 360-degree units of angular measure.... :freak:

The TOS Enterprise, as with all the others, is as fast or slow as it needs to be for story purposes. It has ever been thus, and shall ever be thus. Writers who are particular about getting the speed right "cheat" (ahead of time) by putting the ship in the right place so that having it travel as fast as it officially supposed to be matches the needs of the story.

Yeah, I know -- I'm a wet blanket. ;)

Qapla'

SSB

The TOS Enterprise, as with all the others, is as fast or slow as it needs to be for story purposes. It has ever been thus, and shall ever be thus. Writers who are particular about getting the speed right "cheat" (ahead of time) by putting the ship in the right place so that having it travel as fast as it officially supposed to be matches the needs of the story.

Yeah, I know -- I'm a wet blanket. ;)

Qapla'

SSB
J. Michael Straczynski refers to this as "traveling at the speed of plot."

One thing I've got to wonder is why a spacefaring civilization would even be using parsecs. It is an Earth-centric geometric based measurement that doesn't translate evenly to any other unit of measurement. It seems it would be as obsolete as the furlong.

"Fast enough for you, old man."

One thing I've got to wonder is why a spacefaring civilization would even be using parsecs. It is an Earth-centric geometric based measurement that doesn't translate evenly to any other unit of measurement. It seems it would be as obsolete as the furlong.Why wonder? The screenwriters were Earth-centric. The audience was Earth-centric. Make up a galactic-centric unit of measurement ( the "gloob") and the audience wouldn't have known whether "100 gloobs" is big or small. Unless you added "mega-" to it.

This was the sixties, you'll recall. Don't apply current fanboy logic (no offense intended) to a television show from that time period. Even now, television audiences prefer Earth-based frames of reference such as gravity, English (with few or no subtitles), fashionable hairstyles on the protagonist, and so on.

Such inconsistencies are to be expected in a program aimed at Earth audiences.

Why wonder? The screenwriters were Earth-centric. The audience was Earth-centric. Make up a galactic-centric unit of measurement ( the "gloob") and the audience wouldn't have known whether "100 gloobs" is big or small. Unless you added "mega-" to it.

This was the sixties, you'll recall. Don't apply current fanboy logic (no offense intended) to a television show from that time period. Even now, television audiences prefer Earth-based frames of reference such as gravity, English (with few or no subtitles), fashionable hairstyles on the protagonist, and so on.

Such inconsistencies are to be expected in a program aimed at Earth audiences.
There are plenty of other Earth-centric units of measure (such as the light year) in use which are clearer and more intuitive. A Parsec is based on measuring the angle of parallax, which is useful to an Earth-based astronomer, but is of little use to someone actually travelling through the stars.

Then again, when parsec is used on the series, the filmmakers don't seem to have a clear idea of what it actually is. Or else assumed that the audience wouldn't know. In the example I gave, it seems it would be much clearer if Chekov had said ".2 light years" rather than "1/16 of a parsec."

When you put it that way (like, the only way), a parsec would be completely inappropriate for galactic travel.

Hmph ... maybe the audiences might have thought that a light year is a measure of time, not distance.

"Parsec or light year?" "Use parsec. It sounds more technical." ;)

and then there is A.U. as in "the cloud is over 82 A.U.'s in diameter, there must be something tremendous generating it"

as I understand it. an AU is equal to the distance between the earth and the sun. hardly a useful measurement once you get out of the solar system, as you would have to preface it with "terran" as in a "terran AU" or a "vulcan AU"

what next? using "Acres per minute" as a measurement of speed?

what next? using "Acres per minute" as a measurement of speed?
An acre is a measure of area, so it wouldn't work for velocity.

Now cubits per fortnight...

I know you're not sposed to post for others not members but Bill just called and wanted me to ask:

"Have any of you ever kissed a girl?"

If I put a mop, a donut and a.......

ummm never mind, I can't use that on this board. Suffice it to say, Bobcat Goldthwaite has a line as classic as Shatner's......

PM me, I don't know that one

I know you're not sposed to post for others not members but Bill just called and wanted me to ask:

"Have any of you ever kissed a girl?"
Working on it...