danny with all the talk of lipo batteries and god knows what else coming down the pipe i ould like to know where the battery king stands on all of this.

will you be matching lipo packs?

will you be able to find a lipo pack that fits in oval cars?

what about a lipo pack closer to 4 cell voltages?

the last year with the IB cells has been brutal on many a racer due to the fact that the cells destroy themselves in your battery box.

many racers are looking towards lipo's now to save them money.

i myself am not happy with the lipo pach size and the higher voltages.

please tell us you are working towards a more oval friendly solution..

thanks danny for your time.

william sell
www.focars.net (http://www.focars.net)

Agreed 100% Kat ...The IB cells right now are killing oval quicker than ever..For Mod they are 1 race batteries ...And the they are good 19t brushless and stock packs ...
Hopefully the new ones are better...

Kat, i agree that nimh are killing us.

BTW, an orion 3200 carbon, tapes nicely into my Mav 05 opc.

danny must be out of town/canada ?

Hi Bill,

no, Danny is not out of town. In fact he is working hard on researching and testing LIPOS.

Unfortunately, he is very busy and does not always have the time to follow these threads. I am sure that he will respond as soon as he gets a chance.

Antonio De Nino
Team SMC

Kat, yesterday I sent you an email via the Hobbytalk link in you account, I received a failure to deliver notice, "Due to extended inactivity new mail is not currently being accepted for this mailbox."

ron katf1sh@bellsouth.net

Kat, when I click on the user id on one of your posts, it gives an earthlink address, please update your user info for hobbtalk. I may be slow but ya know.

First of all I'm still alive and well just not into the forums as much as I feel it gets a bit old to argue a point of view.

Many don't like the newer generation cells but actually I feel they have made racing more competitive then ever as there is an abundance of great cells. Yes there are some reliability issues but you must remember that these cells are made to be high performance cells that put out allot of power. I'm sure if Intellect or others would cut back on power they could make the cells more reliable but then the racers would complain that the voltage is down.


SMC will release Lipos shortly and they will be 7.4V. There is no way to make a 4.2V Lipo so the oval market will have to accept 3.7V or keep using sub-c cells.

In my testing of Lipos I have found a big difference in quality and performance so for those who think a Lipos are all the same are mistaken. So like it has always been there will be leading manufacturers who will be pushing the limits of Lipo technology so expect to see improvements regularly. The manufacturer we have been working with has sent us improvements fairly frequently and they plan on pushing the limits.

Since Lipos are being made in difference sizes and shapes and almost look homemade there will be no way to tech them. This leads me to believe that they will not be good for competitive racing as there will be some who will have an advantage due to new and improved Lipos that may only be available to certain.


When a big race comes up many like to buy new packs and I have asked a few racers why they buy new packs and they tell me they want fresh packs that have the best possible numbers. In my testing of Lipos I have seen the IR go up and the voltage go down with use and storage so the racers who were use to buying new sub-c packs will probably be buying new Lipos for major races.


Hope this makes sense and I'm sure some will disagree but only time will tell my info is based on what I have seen so far and what I believe will happen if Lipos become legal for racing.

Since Lipos are being made in difference sizes and shapes and almost look homemade there will be no way to tech them. This leads me to believe that they will not be good for competitive racing as there will be some who will have an advantage due to new and improved Lipos that may only be available to certain.


When a big race comes up many like to buy new packs and I have asked a few racers why they buy new packs and they tell me they want fresh packs that have the best possible numbers. In my testing of Lipos I have seen the IR go up and the voltage go down with use and storage so the racers who were use to buying new sub-c packs will probably be buying new Lipos for major races.




This directly backs up what I've heard from a friend (excellent source) in the Airplane/Heli field. Li-Po's do not have infinite stability and are definately not the end of the road in battery technology. I know many guys love racing with the Brushless/Li-Po combo, but it looks as if Sub-C's will be around for a while. Like Danny said...as long as people want to push the envelope to make a buck, your current equipment will always become obsolete as long as we (as racers) create demand by looking for an 'edge'.

Bill, good topic. I thought I'd put in my two sense since it seems there's a lot that we as car guys don't understand about LiPos.

will you be matching lipo packs?
-Lipo's don't need "matching" as we know it per say... at least I don't believe so, airplane guys haven't seen any performance value in matching two cells. The most important thing to their performance and health is to keep them balanced and that is done in normal cycles by a charger.

will you be able to find a lipo pack that fits in oval cars?
- There are "4cell" sized packs for cars that have been available through Kokam since they released their Scopion system a few years ago. They're 7.4v but the cells are about the right size. Personally I don't think size matters much for us as long as they fit reasonably into the car. I could see if we had something like offroad chassis' do where it would have to fit in a specific shape but for us it seems more wide open (within limits of course)

what about a lipo pack closer to 4 cell voltages?
- a single LiPo cell outputs 3.7v by design so 4.8 probably isn't possible. Again I feel that 2 cell is reasonable for us since we ran 6cell not too long ago. Yes motors have gotten much better but isn't the point of a car being direct drive that its much faster then anything else. If I wanted to go slower why not run a gearbox, or slower motors. IMO 4cell was a method (all be it a rather unsuccessful one) at limiting/lowering the cost of racing, not to slow cars down anyway.

many racers are looking towards lipo's now to save them money.
- This is where I feel LiPo's will be the BIGGEST thing to change racing in general but especially for us. they're not much more then 6cell packs yet get over 1000 cycles with minimal deterioration as long as you take care of them (like anything else on that point). They are very different then what we're used to and I think their continued success in r/c cars is going to require a lot of user "retraining" on battery practices.

i myself am not happy with the lipo pach size and the higher voltages.
- No real notes here just curious as to why? What brands in specific? They come in all sorts of sizes and I'm sure you raced when 6 cell was around.

What I suggest to anyone intersted in running Lipos in cars it to talk to airplane guys. They've run Lipos almost as long as we've run NiMh's and for the most part know the TRUTH about them vs. what I see a lot of car people post without really knowing the deal at all.

Good Luck!

I've posted this before in the other threads where people are getting so fired up about lipos but......

This whole they don't deteriorate and they are all equal just seems to be spreading by word of mouth and I have never seen any data backing it up.

I want to see the discharge curves for 20 randomly purchased Orion/Peak (these are the ones ARCOR is mandating) hard case Lipo packs plotted on the same graph.

I then want to see the discharge curves for the same 20 packs after say 500 cycles.

If someone anywhere could produce that data and show me that the packs are as equal as all the hype claims and last as long as all the hype claims I'll get on the bandwagon.

Unfortunately people will believe about anything somone tells them. You can see that by just scrolling through the threads on here. So, people are going to buy into all this hype and when/if it doesn't pan out to be the greatest thing ever for RC racing they'll be pissed.

Most of what I have seen the airplane guys and heli guys say is that all the cells from a given manf. are not equal and they definitely do not last forever. Whether that is true or not who knows, we need data.

As for the current NiMH cells I think they are pretty decent. My best packs are 6+ months old and are raced weekly, average voltage for most at 35A is around 5.00 or just below. I think 95% of the guys are missing the boat on caring for them though. All of mine are dead shorted with significant (by my standards) improvement in performance and longevity over what I was seeing before I started deadshorting. I agree they stink for mod but that is such a small portion of the hobby at this point I don't think it is that big of a deal.

In the end I don't care if we switch to Lipos, but I think all the guys counting on it being a huge improvement in cost and equality are going to be disappointed.

Yeah, and all brushless motors are equal. It's just something that will never happen with motors, batteries, anything that we use "performance wise". Because 2% varience maybe suitable for the manufactor but would never be good enough for a racer.

Since Lipos are being made in difference sizes and shapes and almost look homemade there will be no way to tech them. This leads me to believe that they will not be good for competitive racing as there will be some who will have an advantage due to new and improved Lipos that may only be available to certain.


Hmmm...could this be EXACTLY why when JB & ARCOR decided to go the route of trying LIPOs they put such a firm stance on ONLY ONE type of LIPO battery to be legal?

This I believe was a much larger issue than the 'safety' issue - the encasing for the 3200 LIPO does, I believe allow a little better protection for the battery but IMHO controlling this type of class by limiting the legalization of OTHER products sort of curbs that a bit. (Now with that being said - who will be the FIRST guy to take a 3200 Peak/Orion LIPO and put some OTHER 'illegal' LIPO inside the case - and get themselves banned for LIFE and/or have their names drug through the mud for FORCING THE RULES and trying to beat a non-existant GRAY area~)

Is or Will LIPOS be for everybody? AT THIS TIME - probably NOT

WILL RACERS and/or MFG's RUIN LIPO Racing? - knowing the TECH FREAKS - YES, I'm sure they will.

RACERS try to find an advantage - to make up for what they may LACK in ability, or to have a slight edge if car and driver are equal...that's a part of racing. If a MFG. or RACER thinks he can have an advantage by having 100 LIPO packs, and NEVER using a single pack twice...do you think HE WON'T DO IT?

Does that mean for the other 99.99 percent of racers you need to do the same thing? I guess it depends on how important that $18.00 bowling trophy is to you.

I waiting anxiously to see some of the 'discharge' and battery data on the 3200 LIPOS (I'm really not interested in the results of ANY OTHER lipos at this time, because they are not being proposed for use in OVAL racing in my world)

The problem with using one LIPO brand it does not leave room for other compinies. Not trying to start anything just making an observation.

The problem with using one LIPO brand it does not leave room for other compinies. Not trying to start anything just making an observation.

AGREED - but sometimes when 'other companies' RUIN things by breaking the spirits of rules and such...drastic measures need to be taken.

Why do a LOT of other forms of motorsports use this logic?

From KARTING to IMCA to NASCAR, they all have divisions of racing that are VERY controlled with rules as to what products you can use...then there are the UPPER ranks for the bigger 'professionals' that have a little more freedom....but still they don't have total freedom.

Does HOOSIER want to be on a CUP car? Does NASCAR care?

Does SHELL want their FUEL in a CUP car? Does NASCAR care?

Does your kids Go Cart use a RLV exaust system exclusively? Do other mfg's want to make that exaust? Does the IKF care?

To date, I have not seen ANYONE - NOT J.B., Not ME nor anyone else who has targeted ALL oval racing with the use of LIPOs. However, there are a group of us who are SICK as hell of buying NEW freakin batteries because the old ones took a crap. It was bad enough buying them because technology was moving so fast and obsoleting the old cells...then being told 'WE HAVE TO CHANGE - BECAUSE THE MATCHERS AREN'T SELLING THAT BATTERY - or the MFG's AREN'T GOING TO SUPPORT those CELLS ANYMORE"

I just loaded up a box to take to the recycling center which includes virtually ALL the cells I never sold off over the past 20+ years. (There are some 1200's, 1400's 1700's and LOTS and LOTS of NIMH batteries in the box) The box weighs about 55 lbs...and if somebody wanted to go through all the packs they may be able to put some practice packs together by removing the single DEAD CELLS in some of the packs...but I don't feel like messing with them)

I avoided 3000 mah cells - along with 2400 nicads. Went right from 2000's to 3300's...just like I was able to avoid the P170's and the SCE's before them.

I sunk a LOT into the 3300's and the 3800's over a 2 1/2 year period. I REFUSE to do it w/ 4200's. I have 3 SMC packs that have been AWESOME so far - and they were from Danny's sale on RCTech. I also have 3 of the ORION 3200's. Have NOT raced them myself, but I've used them for testing...and I've loaned them to several OTHERS to race with to get their INPUTS...which so far has been 100% positive.

My hopes for 2008 are to be able to offer for OUR needs ONE class for sure, and possibly a 2nd class, out of 4-5 total classes. THE OTHERS I hope will stay with 4 cell NIMH's as long as racers support them.

I definetly appreciate all the testing you guys are doing with the LIPO's. I still think they are at least another year off before they are ready for the mass public.

losi888,

I would agree, problem is RACERS get impatient..and when they find out something is being tested it's just like when a NEW cell comes out - THEY want to be the first guy on the block to have it..then make everyone else have to switch to it...even if as a product IT SUCKS. I much prefer DATA over being force fed...

Had we added TIME to events back when we went to 3000's vs. 2000's that would have been one thing - but to now have over DOUBLE the battery capacity, yet we can't ADD race time because "WE DON'T WANT TO CREATE a BATTERY WAR", yet we still have to jump to the NEWEST cells because even though we only use 33 - 60 % of our current cells - the NEW CELLS perform better for that first 1/2 of the cell...or something.

LIPOS will NOT FIX what is wrong with RACING

ONLY RACERS can fix what's WRONG with RACING

This isn't just for R/C Racing - look around - do you have a LOCAL SPEEDWAY in your areas? Look at the B.S. going on at that track in the LOWER classes and even in the higher 'latemodel' or in some places 'sprint' or 'open wheel' classes.

ONE Group wants HI-TECH EXPENSIVE STUFF, this same group wants the PURSES to be raised to a level where they can MAKE A LIVING OUT OF RACING, while the other group is pushing for "SPEC" or "CRATE" motors.

SAME B.S. - different type of racing

(I really need to go back to work - UNEMPLOYMENT gives me way to much time online - and I need to get cars together to go PLAY this weekend...in a very FUN SPEC TRUCK CLASS - No Lipos, but SPEC Handout Motors provided by the track...all from ONE mfg.) KICK in the PANTS class - and almost everybody running Door to Door~ (My FAVORITE KIND OF RACING)

One thing I find odd is that ARCOR limits Lipos to one manufacturer but if you want stable sub-c's you could of done the samething by limiting it to one cell manufacturer.

Intellect has the technology to make a more reliable cell but they are trying to stay ahead of it's competition.

Racing is racing and there will always be people willing to spend whatever or buy whatever it takes. The only problem with Lipos are that they are more expensive and I have yet to see one stay good as new after it's been used for awhile.

For all of those who want to limit things there is always spec clases but they have yet to become popular.

When your buying a multiple cell Lipo packs such as a 2S1P or 2S2P the cells are matched by the manufacturer. Not sure if every manufacturer does this but the one were dealing with is doing it.

For all of those who want to limit things there is always spec clases but they have yet to become popular

Danny,

For most SPEC racing - it's expected that it should be a SLOW class. JB created her COF class around a LIPO battery and has been looking for the perfect motor to go with it...NOT as a entry level or SLOW class. As a SPEC class yes, but not a ROOKIE class.

On MY part, I too am looking to create a SPEC CLASS and NOT a ENTRY LEVEL Spec or SLOW spec class. I'm looking to cater to a 'mid grade' group of racers..mainly made up of guys in their 40's, who have been racing 12-20+ years who have had their days of Battery Cycling, Comm Cutting, and all the other little 'performance' enhancing things on race day. This group wants to spend a little LESS time w/ that type of stuff..enjoy racing a little more,..and hopefully be able to spend a little more time with chassis stuff (unless your ME - then I'll just have more time to spend B S ing)

This whole they don't deteriorate and they are all equal just seems to be spreading by word of mouth and I have never seen any data backing it up.

I want to see the discharge curves for 20 randomly purchased Orion/Peak (these are the ones ARCOR is mandating) hard case Lipo packs plotted on the same graph.

I then want to see the discharge curves for the same 20 packs after say 500 cycles.

If someone anywhere could produce that data and show me that the packs are as equal as all the hype claims and last as long as all the hype claims I'll get on the bandwagon.

Most of what I have seen the airplane guys and heli guys say is that all the cells from a given manf. are not equal and they definitely do not last forever. Whether that is true or not who knows, we need data.


Simkins, i never said there is no deterioration. It is, since i assume you do know something about this, significantly better then and cells we have now. As for them all being equal i dont' see where I said that either. There are hundreds of companies making and selling LiPo's of which I only consider two or three to be of any decent quality.

As for data and curves I worked extensively with FMA/Kokam (whom orion and others get their lipos from) to develope not only the batteries but the software for them during my time at Driver. Kokam was the first to market in r/c cars with a 1/10 system and it was in great part due to Drivers invovlement with them.

Jaime at FMA (Kokam's dist) has more data about LiPo's then anyone will ever need. I'm sure if you called him he would be happy to talk to you about their tests.

Let's also keep in mind that although Orion's and other car manf. have IMO the better product configuration for r/c cars, they are by no means the only dealer and their batteriers are by even slimmer means the only format LiPo's come in.

Not trying to argue at all, I'm glad to see someone else has some knowledge of these batteries.

-ER

When your buying a multiple cell Lipo packs such as a 2S1P or 2S2P the cells are matched by the manufacturer. Not sure if every manufacturer does this but the one were dealing with is doing it.

Exactly. Any quality company's packs are "matched" because unpaired cells actually hurt each other on top of their overall performance. I'd like to see more mainstream manufacturer's build chargers that balance the cells, I believe there are only two on the market now that do and it is SO important for Lipos.

Danny I'm glad to see you have the vision to stay with the industry... that's why SMC is the company it is! :thumbsup:

To all,

This is a fantastic discussion. I agree that allowing more manufacturers would be good HOWEVER.....

To my knowledge, we have stock motor specifications, tire specs, NIMH specs yet we have no brushless or lipo specs.

I am referring to a lipo spec such as:

- 3200 MaHr max capacity
- 2S1P configuration
- Hard Case XL x XW x XH
- Weight from X oz to y oz

And brushless motors defining the wind, guage, wire length, rotor material, size etc.

If an organization defined a spec, then manufacturers could get their products approved in the same manner as we have with 4 cell and brushed motors for years.

Just my $.02

Peter

Simkins, i never said there is no deterioration. -ER

Sorry, wasn't really replying to you specifically that's why I didn't quote you. If you follow some of the other Lipo threads there are guys basically making that type of claim about longevity and how equal the packs are.

Personally, I would be really interested to see the data you are mentioning. I'm sure the manufacturers have mountains and mountains of it. If you happen to have anything you could share that'd be great.

The only reason I mention the Orion pack is that there are a bunch of guys testing with them, racing them and ARCOR made rules specifically requiring those for their class. It could be any manufacturer though.

Anyway, a company like Orion must realize that the two most important things to RC racers would be equality of the packs and longevity. They must have a massive amount of data. If it shows the packs are all equal and last a long time why aren't they using it in marketing all over the place? Again, I'm not saying it isn't true, I have no idea whether it is or not. It just seems to me that they are really missing the ball on a good way to market to the racing crowd if it's as good as some claim.

pm,

as far as the battery claims, etc. from Orion/Peak. Since LIPOs really haven't been legalized anywhere for racing - mainly just 'bashers' have them to play with and they are slowing finding their way to race tracks as tracks decide to give them a shot...I think for the '08 racing season you may see a change in their advertising strategy.

Orion already says that the 3200 LIPO is their MOST POPULAR selling battery, in part due to price (which isn't cheap) but since it is available from various locations at about $80.00 it really isn't out of line compared to a 6 cell NIMH either.

With the recent purchase of ORION by KYOSHO, and Rick Hohwart (founder and manager of PEAK Racing, and U.S. operations of ORION) leaving the company, they will be undertaking many changes in the immediate future.

JB has created a pretty sweet set of rules for her organization. I'm hoping others with some type of ideas for SPEC/LIPO type racing look carefully at what she has put together, and much like what SONNY has done w/ the BRL rules structure, hopefully the ARCOR LIPO class rules will be used by others to help get this dog on the hunt.

Last time I got some Lipos to test from the manufacturer that we will use there was one pack out of the 4 that was down in performance and they others were similar. I don't believe there is a way to get packs to be all equl as I don't think that all motors can be the same as well. I have heard stories about racers buying multiple brushless motors to find they odd one that is faster.

Racing will always be racing and there will be some racers who will buy multiple packs and fresh ones all the time. The current cost for a 4 cell pack if your looking for the extra .005 in voltage is 50-60 dollars if you want the regular voltage packs they are 32-38 and a 3200 Lipo pack is 80.00 so I don't really see where it's saving the racers allot of money.

As far as ARCOR goes they have to stick with the Orion pack as if another company comes out with 3200 pack it maybe more powerful as what Orion is offering which would mean racers would need to buy this new pack.

Anyway time will tell if this will work.

Hmmmm... this is something I haven't done before.... Disagree with Danny-SMC. :) If you compare a top of the line SMC 6-cell pack (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXRSH4&P=7) to a top of the line Orion 3200 lipo (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNMF9&P=ML), There is a couple of dollars difference. Also, given that you would need 2-3 packs of NiMh's and only one lipo, the savings is there.
As I see it, If everyone switched tomorrow to lipo and there were new lipos coming out like NiMh, we would still be right where we are now. But, we will be at a place where we could run Offroad, Dirt oval or sedans with the same batteries. Also, and more important, people who race these other types of cars could race PAN OVAL! To me that is enough to make the switch. Think about it.

Oh, Novaks 17.5 motor (http://www.shopatron.com/product/part_number=3417/135.0.8180.0.0.0.0) is on Shopatron! Get yours today.

To be realistic most guys are going to need/want more then 1 Lipo. One of the best things about BL is I can practice pack after pack after pack. If you have just one lipo that will limit your practicing.

Danny-SMCOne thing I find odd is that ARCOR limits Lipos to one manufacturer but if you want stable sub-c's you could of done the samething by limiting it to one cell manufacturer.

Intellect has the technology to make a more reliable cell but they are trying to stay ahead of it's competition.




I find this odd cause I haven't seen it with the 4200's. It's the most unstable battery we have ever had and its killing the hobby.

Rick Liehr

PM- Yes i know, just pointing it out for others reading our discussion. I posted for the same reason you mentioned... frankly I've seen too many people saying things they have NO IDEA what they're talking about. Oh well, give people a forum and everyones an electronic engineer right! LOL. :freak:

Not all manf have data like this, most OEM their packs from a few companies and repackage and market them...such is the case with a lot of stuff in r/c, FMA/Kokam being one of them. I mentioned them because of my direct experience with them and the fact that they've been in the LiPo business through airplanes for a lot longer then others.

There are always packs that will perform less then another from the same company, manf tolarences in r/c have never set any world records for precision. LOL.

I also agree that narrowing rules to one manf is not the best idea but when that rule was prob made, there may not have been more then one or two.

LiPo AND Brushless are still very much in their infancy, much the way stock motors were in the early 1980's. Its going to take the manufacturers, NOT sanctioning bodies, to get on a common ground if they ever want to race together... i would suggest for our benefit as racers, we lean on them to organize not people trying to do their best like JB or Sonny over at the BRL. They both have fantastic organizations that serve their people very well and they are to be commended. As for the hobby as a whole though, its on the companies selling the products to come together and create a stable for a new class of racing. Without that, nothing will ever move forward and racers will be the ones who suffer for it.

man i'm glad i got out.

Hmmmm... this is something I haven't done before.... Disagree with Danny-SMC. :) If you compare a top of the line SMC 6-cell pack (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXRSH4&P=7) to a top of the line Orion 3200 lipo (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNMF9&P=ML), There is a couple of dollars difference. Also, given that you would need 2-3 packs of NiMh's and only one lipo, the savings is there.
As I see it, If everyone switched tomorrow to lipo and there were new lipos coming out like NiMh, we would still be right where we are now. But, we will be at a place where we could run Offroad, Dirt oval or sedans with the same batteries. Also, and more important, people who race these other types of cars could race PAN OVAL! To me that is enough to make the switch. Think about it.

Oh, Novaks 17.5 motor (http://www.shopatron.com/product/part_number=3417/135.0.8180.0.0.0.0) is on Shopatron! Get yours today.


My point is that oval is currently running 4 cell with certain types of motors. Now to go with the new specs/rules you need to buy a a lipo pack and a new motor. This is why I was mentioning that lipos aren't cheaper and as far as only buying one pack you can also only use one pack of sub-c if you wanted to. Since the Orion pack is a 3200 the sanctioning bodies could consider 3600 sub-c which would of dropped the price of a 4 cell pack another 12 dollars or so and improved reliability.

Racing will always be racing and no matter what rules , motors or batteries you use there will always be some who will buy as many as they think they need to get an edge.

For all of you who will be running Lipos in this new class here is a trick heat up your pack prior to charging it this will yield more voltage and lower IR.

Danny-SMCOne thing I find odd is that ARCOR limits Lipos to one manufacturer but if you want stable sub-c's you could of done the samething by limiting it to one cell manufacturer.

Intellect has the technology to make a more reliable cell but they are trying to stay ahead of it's competition.




I find this odd cause I haven't seen it with the 4200's. It's the most unstable battery we have ever had and its killing the hobby.

Rick Liehr


Yes the 4200 is unstable because this is there full blown race cell which is showcasing how much power they can put inside a cell. This is what made them beat GP and others. As a competitive racer I'm sure your trying your best to be faster than all other racers so think of a cell manufacturer as a racer trying to beat other racers.

If racing sanctioning bodies wanted more reliable cells they could of limited it to one supplier. Take the current IB3600 it's cheaper than the 4200 and more reliable. I'm sure that racers would not want this but this would be a solution. Now I was asked to give my opinions on this site and I find out that racers want to go to a exclusive 3200 lipo and different motor setup. I have been saying it all along the only way to get sub-c cells to be more reliable is to go back down in voltage and IR but it has been my experience that racers always want the best cells.

I also think that the current battery situation is much better than some make it out to be as there is an abundance of great cells out there. If you take a pack that has lost some runtime and deadshort it will stabilise and have great voltage. It will run great in stock and possibly 19t. The mod racers complain that runtime drops but actually if you don't dump the pack on the track and keep it stored and cycled properly it should give you a decent amount of cycles with good runtime. When you would dump a GP3300 on the track you would hurt it's runtime as well. The GP3300 had .03 difference in voltage between the best an lowest cells in cases the current cells only have .015 which is why there is always great voltage cells available. If you dump a Lipo on the track without a cutoff device you will hurt it's runtime as well.


It will also be fun to see what happens with Lipos once a racer tries to charge it over 8.4 volts to try to get the extra advantage.

My point is that oval is currently running 4 cell with certain types of motors. Now to go with the new specs/rules you need to buy a a lipo pack and a new motor. This is why I was mentioning that lipos aren't cheaper and as far as only buying one pack you can also only use one pack of sub-c if you wanted to. Since the Orion pack is a 3200 the sanctioning bodies could consider 3600 sub-c which would of dropped the price of a 4 cell pack another 12 dollars or so and improved reliability.

Racing will always be racing and no matter what rules , motors or batteries you use there will always be some who will buy as many as they think they need to get an edge.

For all of you who will be running Lipos in this new class here is a trick heat up your pack prior to charging it this will yield more voltage and lower IR.


A heating PAD works really well...

On the 'battery' deal - I would have loved to stay with something like the 3600 type packs - but for TOO long the BATTERY market is/has been driven by the MATCHERS and RACERS looking for 'THE EDGE' .

Battery Matchers have dictated WHAT we run by not Matching the packs we had - instead moving onto a NON APPROVED CELL and then making it known they will NOT be continuing to support the current cell...or my favorite is "Company So and So will NOT be making THOSE batteries anymore"

RACING did not improve by switching from 2000 mah NiCADS to NIMH's. Sure, it got FASTER and the socalled 'Battery War' was less because....no wait - it got WORSE because those 3000 NIMH's sucked. But when we got to 3300's things were good for quite a while...until the 3800's started getting pushed....which were great...until 4200's were shrunk w/ 3800's decals...which made the old 3800's look like CRAP.

3300's were durable, and strong...and RACING should have stayed with them quite a bit longer while technology was allowed to come up with NEW STUFF...instead of US having to 'beta test' all these other cells.

LIPO batteries will have some of the same growing and technology advances...which is why I'm glad to see a LIMIT on what cells will be used..and that the projection is that these cells will be around and available for a good amount of time in the future. (THESE WILL NOT BE THE LAST STEP IN BATTERIES, But hopefully they will be a good time server)

As far as only having ONE LIPO PACK - for local club racing, this will mostly be true if there are enough local racers to have time to charge the pack between runs. I'd guess two would be better...

As far as BIGGER events - with the way racers are - YOU KNOW DANG WELL they guys who have no limited budget WILL have a BOX o BATTERIES and a BOX o MOTORS..just like their BOX o TIRES and $25,000 PIT AREA. Hopefully however, the OTHER GUYS won't be so far in the hole than they could be currently.

MOTORS

If everyone has 8 B/L motors in their toolbox

2 - 3.5's or 4.5's
2 - 10.5's
2 - 13.5's
2 - 17.5's

YOU would be set to run virtually ANY SPEED class...at ANY TRACK, plus have a SPARE motor to either USE or LOAN

What does YOUR BOX have in it right now?

...oh, and on the charging at HIGHER Voltages - this is something I've been looking for the proper way to address - and I do think this is something that could be done in TECH before a race at any BIG race that allows lipos...CHECKING THE STATIC Voltage at the beginning of the race..and PROMPTLY DQ'ing ANYONE who comes across with more than 8.38-8.41 volts...and citing them with "DANGEROUS DISREGARD" in the handling of the batteries...and send them HOME.

Lets take a step back and consider the bigger picture. There is no transition to Lipo, its a completely different game as danny has pointed out. its a giant break requiring different chargers and motors.
So advocating lipo is advocating some pretty big changes in the status quo. So are there any other compelling alternatives?

So far danny has mentioned placing a limit on batteries as a way of increasing longevitiy. The self destruction (discharge) of 4200wc cells is the primary reason i sold off all my nimh stuff and switched to lipo. I just got tired of using my hundreds of dollars of nimh battery equipment (ctx charger and ctx-d) to still have my packs goto crap.

However even if we limited nimh cells we're still looking at the status quo of needing a charger and discharger/tray. Plus we're stuck using 4 cell packs that no other form of rc car racing uses (as gezer pointed out). I cant count the number of people that wont race oval because they dont have 4 cell packs....Even 1/12th guys cant generally race oval because they have saddle packs. This works in the opposite direction that exclusively oval racers cant also run anything else :(

Now lets look at the lipo thing....the number one issue is safety, which is essentially solved by using balance chargers. This way each cell is monitored and cannot be overcharged. The second piece to this is over discharge, which is also solved by both Novak and LRP endorsing a legitimate lipo cutoff voltage.
Now the only safety concern is what happens to your pack on the track. This seems to be covered by systems such as orions hard casing. Where is the horror story about the casing failing and someones pack frying????

This leaves the equipment & status quo issues. The investment in lipo is not insignificant, however its not so bad. Personally i dont know of anyone actually using more than 1 pack, and i dont see much reason to, if you accept 2C charging. Orion swears up and down that this is possible, and i've personally been using it for awhile. Sub 30 minute charge times all day. usually significantly less.
Secondly even a great lipo charger like the scorpion is only going to run people < 120 dollars.....so with 2c charging you're looking at about 200 for a battery and charger....no discharger needed.
then add in a new motor.

but so far the convenience factor has been overlooked. i dont need a case for my batteries, i dont need a discharger, and i dont have to worry about my pack...when i run lipos. I can charge my car before i goto the track, and then simply run the car and recharge. when im done i usually dont even need to put anything back in the pack.

lipo and brushless makes racing so simple its almost boring. If your car is working its not going to take long to make a minor setup change, so you'll end up with TONS and TONS of time during the round where you dont have to do anything like worry about your pack....no false peaking, no stress to get your pack to peak right before the run etc.


i can see why people like their status quo, but honestly lipo is just about as good as you want it to be. its NOT dangerous if you're reasonable, and its simple!!
for all the haters i just ask that you try and it!

The time has come to go to just one cell manufacture weather it is sub-c's or lipo's.

We are not ready for lipo’s in organized racing yet. There are still too many unanswered questions about there use. They are fun to play with and there is some good testing going on with lipo’s to get motors slowed down for them and learn how they react to different charging and other tricks we have done with sub-c’s, but we are or should be years away from making that change across the board for organized racing. There are some niche area’s they are going to be used in and will probably work well if it remains one cell manufacture and the manufacture is responsible and leaves the battery alone. One thing that is still unknown is what happens when competitive racers start really being abusive in charging or prepping the battery till it is ready to explode or melt and find they run a half a tenth or so faster doing this. If this turns out to be true then we never should adopt lipo’s for organized racing.

So today the racing community should be looking at getting a more reliable cell from one manufacture and adopting them as the sole supplier for a racing cell.

This paragraph is alittle off topic but very relevent.
I for one, as a racer am ready to go backwards in battery voltage of sub-c’s, especially if the cell longevity can be improved.
I only race oval and observe some road course racing. Those two types of racing have gotten way too fast, especially in the spec motor classes. (spec being stock,19turn,13.5 and 4300....spec'ed motors) With the increased voltage of todays batteries (which has been a competition between cell manufactures that racers have participated in because some run for x battery matcher and some for y and z matcher) oval and onroad are so fast that there now needs to be a new slower spec'ed motor class. That would make 3 spec'ed motor classes to make a place for new people to come into our hobby/sport. That is not too many classes. And no, we don't need to take handling away to slow them down, we just need to create the slower class of what we already have with a slower motor(both onroad and oval). It is not the cost, but the speed that is keeping new people from coming into our hobby. It is also the speed that is causing use to lose some of what we already have. Speed creates more work and expense than some are willing to invest in a pass time or recreation. We must make a place for the new person to get started. That can be easily done by creating the slower motor class. Right now, for a brand new person all the current classes in oval and onroad are just way to much work to just get a car to go around the track they are so fast, let alone the breakage from being so fast. The new person that is going to wreck during his learning to drive doesn’t have a chance. He can’t run a battery out without braking the car it is so fast.


Back to the battery issue. Faster (bigger voltage/high power) batteries do not give one racer an advantage over the other to be able to beat his competitor, it only makes us all go faster which has become a problem. The only time this happens is when battery manufactures compete against one another or when the single manufacture releases an improvement to the current cell and only select matchers get them before a major race, which has happened before. Then it only gives some racers an advantage till they go and buy the other manufactures or matchers batteries.

Danny is correct that this will not be fixed till sanctioning bodies work with matchers and cell manufactures to establish one cell for racing. We have almost had this over the past several years so it is not an impossible task. We had GP for a few years where the batteries were pretty level as far as all racers being able to buy good batteries over the counter. Now we have had IB for several years also with a level playing field in availability. But when IB moved in with bigger voltage and the continual changes to make sure no one takes the market from them, they have taken durability to a new low. No, we really don't want to lose the level playing field with everyone having an equal opportunity to the best batteries, but we do not need faster batteries. Surely the organized racing market is big enough for manufactures to now start a war between themselves to compete for this market, not with the most powerful cell, but with the most durable, consistent cell. That matchers get a good yield on. I think we(racers, matchers and sanctioning bodies) need to put them(manufactures of batteries) on notice that this is what we want and we are not going to rest till we have it.

Do not mistaken my post as domes dayish, I am just the opposite. I believe the future is bright for RC racing. Many opportunities lay ahead.

Great Information. Great thread!!!

Katfish has started some pretty good threads lately.
KUDO's to him for having his finger on the pulse of oval racing.

Great Post John ...And 100% True... If everyone has lower voltage and more consistent batteries we are all still on the same page... And batteries last longer than a couple weekends... that would be great ..

i still feel that oval would be much much bigger if we ran the same number of cells as the rest of electric rc.
its horrible that i cant go run sedan without having to buy new packs :(

This isn't directed to you personally John. You just posted what a lot of people feel.

We are not ready for lipo’s in organized racing yet. There are still too many unanswered questions about there use. They are fun to play with and there is some good testing going on with lipo’s to get motors slowed down for them and learn how they react to different charging and other tricks we have done with sub-c’s,

I don't understand where the feeling that Lipos are not an alternative to NiMh. They are at least as safe as NiMh and actually safer. You can't over charge them because the charger won't allow you too! Let me state that again, "You can't over charge a lipo because the charger won't let you."

There are some niche area’s they are going to be used in and will probably work well if it remains one cell manufacture and the manufacture is responsible and leaves the battery alone.

That is what a lot of people who want lipo have been say. We want to stick with the Orion/ Peak carbon battery. We get bashed for not allowing other manufactures in.

One thing that is still unknown is what happens when competitive racers start really being abusive in charging or prepping the battery till it is ready to explode or melt and find they run a half a tenth or so faster doing this. If this turns out to be true then we never should adopt lipo’s for organized racing.

Well, we know what happens when you do this to NiMh. Maybe we shouldn't allow NiMh any more. LOL :) See my first answer above.
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I know a lot of people think that by adding class's that it will dilute the class's we have now. I agree with that. But, if racers feel that they want to use Lipo batteries then they should be allowed to use them. Especially if they are as safe as what we are using now. If you want to use NiMh, then by all means use them. But offer a class for lipo's too. Lipo racers are not against racers who want to run NiMh's, we don't want ban them like some NiMh racers feel about lipos. Let'em run and let the market place decide which one becomes the standard. Danny must see that there is a place for lipos or he wouldn't be preparing to offer them to racer's at some point soon. Schumacher and now Flight Power is offering hard case lipos as well. So they see them in RC racing as well. We do need a set of rules from ROAR. for not only Lipo but brushless as well.
People talk about people leaving the sport because of various reasons. Well, the people who have ran lipos have said that they will not go back to NiMh. My son and I have made a commitment to run lipo or not run at all. I'm sure there are others out there who feel the same. :( This isn't good for the hobby.

Not taken personally Gezer. We need cival debate to influence things. Since we may be discussing this for a while would future posters please include there real name, where and what you race so your idea's and experences are better understood.

Lipo's are a possible alternative.

If manipulating the charging profile makes the battery run faster racers will do it to keep up. If a racer has only have one battery as some have said and he needs to get it recharged before the next heat, and he is competitive that day, he will use 2 chargers, straight off power supply, car battery. There have been batteries that this would make a small difference in a good car. What I am saying is if this makes a huge difference it will be done by a large percentage of racers. But today we don't have all the results of manipulation.

Well, we know what happens when you do this to NiMh.
I can tell you this type of manipulation does not seem to give worthwhile improvement in IB nimh cells. I have seen nimh batteries explode, but all I have witnessed have been the result of overcharging, not high rate charging. Nimh are dangerous when you don't pay close attention to charging profiles like, longlockout on already charged batteries or cutback voltage detect set too high. All the batteries I have witnessed explode have been one of these two issues. When I have felt the need to charge at high amp rates I always cut dropback voltage to .01 and monitor battery temp and shut charge off at 140 degeee's. But right now this type of charging does not yield significant performance increase so it is a non-issue. My point is we(or I) do not know how lipo's will react under these types of charging methods. Yes you can say that people like me are the problem in this area and you will be correct. But there are many racers like me so it has to be addressed. If aggresive charging proves to not give substantial on track performace increase in good race cars like the current nimh cells then we will be one step further in lipo evaluation.

You make good points Gezer. But no one is trying to take lipos away from you. We need the groups of racers like you to be running them as part of the evaluation for the ultimate future decisions on lipos. It is just that the racing world as a whole is not ready to jump onto lipo and abandone sub-c.

We do need a set of rules from ROAR. for not only Lipo but brushless as well.
Don't think Roar and others are idly setting around and not working on this issue. This is major and will take a lot of time to analyze and form accurate and true conclusions for rule making.

My son and I have made a commitment to run lipo or not run at all. I'm sure there are others out there who feel the same. :( This isn't good for the hobby.
Not knowing who you are or what and where you race, I don't know how to respond to this. As I said earlier no one is trying to take lipos away from you. What else are you looking for over the next year that is not already being worked one?

People are developing lipo classes with current motors, new motors are being tested to get ones slow enough. During all of this we will see the effects of long term lipo use.

We do need a set of rules from ROAR. for not only Lipo but brushless as well.
Roar is working on brushless rules. We are learning from their use what needs to be done and tweaked in preparation for rules. Just like the limited use that is starting with lipo's. Roar and all of use will have data and experience with them to make inteligent decisions on their continued use and ultimate rules. Brushless motors and Lipo batteries is going to take some time to get right so lets not move to fast into a situation that is not reversable.

This thread and the topic at hand is what can be done about the current sub-c nimh battery. Is there a way to get a better high capacity(simular run time)battery by backing down the voltage? Batteries are gonig to degrade with use, but todays battery degades on the shelf. It seems like once you run them they degrade faster inbetween each use. Take Rick Lier's post, it was motivated because he just purchased 2 packs of batteries to run mod oval. Label numbers were 437 run time. He assembled and cycled and run time on both packs was 380ish and 390ish. Is it the matchers fault? NO it is just where we are now because of the cell manufactures loosing sight of the racer. The question is how to discuss it to see if an improvement can be made without people bashing each other. True racers are going to buy the fastest legal battery. What can be done today as in right now? Nothing. What can be done tomorrow? A lot can be done if the right people take notice and decide it is time for a change.
My getting involved in this public discussion is to hopefully steer this in a positive and construction direction.

I am going to start a new thread in General Discusion to allow contiinued discusion on slower motors.

John,

Gezer(Don) and his son (Josh) race here in Calif. and race at some of my races when it's a type of track they like to run (They LOVE Metro - not so much VELO's)

Josh is one of the guys I've had do extensive testing w/ the 17.5/LIPO with the 10.5/4 cell class....

Danny has some awesome points w/ the LIPO Batteries - and non of them have gone un-noticed...at least on my and a few others part. I've read and head about tips/tricks and stuff with charging LIPOs at higher VOLTAGE loads that say they CAN handle a very high voltage input..and this CAN change how these batteries act. MOST Normal LIPO chargers have to be put in a mode that 'FOOLS' the battery in order to achieve this from my understanding...and I KNOW (And this is one of MY biggest fears) is that SOME GUYS WILL DO ANYTHING for a 'perceived' advantage..even if it jeopardizes the LIFE of others. THIS has to be put out early in this LIPO Deal that MIS-USE, INAPPROPRIATE CHARGING and/or DISCHARGING will NOT be TOLERATED - PERIOD.

One thing that R/C Car racing does NOT need is stuff that goes BANG in the pits - especially at events where family and kids are present...and people risk injury by STUPID behavior.

LiPos don't go "bang", they start on fire. If you are worried about "bang" then we better stop using NiMh cells ;)


http://www.teampowerpush.com/images/boom.jpg

Oh HANK, must you be so dramatic...that looks like it has to be an ALTERED pic. from photoshop or something. No REAL battery could blow up like that could it? (Tongue in Cheek)

Yeah - I agree~

John, thanks for the reply! I guess I read your post wrong or took it to read that you were against Lipos. There have been a lot of misinformation about lipos posted. I just would like people to give them a fair chance. I agree with what you said in your second post. I see your concerns about NiMh and hope that this gets resolved. What you said about them is exactly the reason we went Lipo. We don't get to race every week and sometimes not for a month or more. So the packs would suffer even with a good maintenance program. Lipos offer us a good alternative to NiMh.

My name is Don Smith. I live in Fresno, CA and have been racing off and on for over 20 years. I have raced Offroad, sedans and of course, oval. Dirt and pancar. I have raced at big events and at a local level.

I really want to give you and Danny credit for posting your opinion's in an open fourm. Most businness owners won't do that. I respect that!

danny thank you very much for your time on the thread.

john foister is dead on! or at least i feel the way john does.

7.4 volts
new chargers
new motors
faster cars
new oval cars

this will kill the momentum we have in oval!!!

i got a orion lipo pack the one with the humps in my hands saturday...it sucks for me! it's way to long to use with my mav 5.5 car all my electronics would be moved to the right side of my car! NO WAY!

i have no need for 7.4 volts and a screwed up oval chassis!

i want a 5 volt lipo pack that fits in my current battery tray! than i will rush out and buy a lipo and enforce a lipo from only one company,just like i do with the motors in florida.

hell i have no need for 1.25 IB cells either if it's going to make me buy 3 packs every 3 months....

90% of us in florida run 19 turn 10.5 or stock we have no need for run time so the GP3300 were awesome. dead short and charge...the IB cells just go dead in my box...they are fast as hell but they don't last long...

i never wanted to go 4 cell but once i did i loved it and it made sense to me..slower cars ..easier for 95% of us to drive and it was a little cheaper on tires and batteries..and motors and brushes lasted a few more runs.

i'm sorry i just do not see 7.4 volts and new motors and chargers as the end all answer..

get me a pack that is safe and can fit in my current 4 cell size tray in my oval car and that will be a start..i guess a current limiter could be used with the 7.4 volts if need be?

even with 4 cells the cars have crept back up to speeds i never thought possible with 4 cells.

imagine a oval series with

10.5
13.5
stock
19 t
12th 19t
10.5 lipo
19t lipo
stock lipo
12th lipo

well you get the idea the 75 entries i get each race would be spread thin in every class! yuk!

i think john foister is on the right track..

Hey Katfish

I don't know if you have dead shorted any IB's. It does work very well for all 4 minute spec motor racing. Dead shorted IB's have around 375 to 395 run time and 4.95 to 5.00 average voltage(even the 1.23 ones come up to 4.95+ after deadshorting. This seem to be ok run time for all but 4300 5 minute carpet racing on big tracks and of course mod. Race them, tray them and dead short. Race day charge and run. Make sure you use long lockout as they will false peak, sometimes after the 600 second lockout on the first charge after being dead shorted for awhile. I had packs I thought had died, but after traying and deadshorting they are good club race batteries and some ecellent for big races.

You know after sleeping on my book I wrote, for most racing the IB is working well and we do have the most level playing field for batteries in a long time. It is just frustrating to also be a mod racer (and have buddies that race mod), that no matter how good you take care of the batteries they loose the original run time you need for mod racing. I guess its like it has always been for mod racing.

...a lot of the complaints I hear about the current batteries are from the guys who run STOCK who are very particular about their batteries...and document their numbers regularly. When the see the numbers drop - it's time for NEW packs.

Only 6 months into '07 and we've got several drivers complaining they've already spent between $300.00 - $500.00 on packs SO FAR this season. (A couple guys - MORE)

As far as the HIGHER VOLTAGE issue KatFish raises - that's exactly WHY the push for some different motors ie: the 17.5 - if a CLUB will let the 17.5 LIPO run WITH the 10.5/4 cell, they should fit well - and this gives those guys a choice as to which direction THEY want to run...and still allows the use of BOTH combinations.

LIPO may NOT be for KAT, but maybe 3 or 4 others in the group WANT to try them and are not unwilling to put the radio gear back on the RH side (Or ... hmmmm how about a SOLID CHASSIS w/ the BATTERY on the RH Side...and the ELECTRONICS on the LEFT since they are almost heavier...)

I too would have liked a voltage closer to 4 cell, but in reality I think having the EXTREMELY higher voltage is better...because if LIPO was to have been designed at 4.4volts instead of 3.7 volts, it would be TOO LOW and guys would complain they can't run with a 4 cell pack, and if it was 5.3 they would still have an UNFAIR advantage and you couldn't MIX THEM.

One of my personal goals is to find the sweet spot with some of these motors to be able to MIX THEM LIPO and 4 cell w/ different motors to create the same net speed.

You can get most of the electronics on the left side. This is a KSG car. You just need a 6 cell tray. :)

Picture (http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c231/gezer2u/Stuff/3200inKSG002.jpg)