Don't know if you have read about Zubak's "SPEED METER" now being pushed as the latest and greatest thing to hit brushless racing yet, BUT. Sounds to me it would be of minimal use to 95% of the racers out there. UNLESS you are one of the top drivers and really know how to set up your car it will be of little use. IMO, wondering what you think of such a device as you have probably had as much experience with brushless as anyone AND ARE one of the top drivers/set up people. Have you seen that much differeces in arms etc. to make one of these "tools" really necessary? Thanks

Personally I think it’s probably offer more of a mental edge for some than an actual performance difference.

Some will probably spend a bunch of money on new rotors assume the highest number read on the meter will offer the best performance. Racers will believe what they want to believe. If it gives them a little confidence knowing they think they have the best stuff good for them.


Here are a few examples of why I don’t think this product will have any impact.

Example 1) We had a driver who ran very well last year in the BRL and changed rotors like they were water. In his mind he thought it was an advantage and you will probably never convince him otherwise. What he failed to realize was he simply had one of the best handling cars and was on top of his game behind the wheel all season. This same driver went to the finals and was a little off his normal pace through practice and qualifying. All during this time he was going about his normal routine of switching rotors but he was not picking up any speed. On track his car just did not look as good as it had at previous races. The chassis was off. As the weekend went on he figured out the chassis and was back up to speed.

My point is even if your one of the fast guys all the rotor changes in the world aren’t going to help you if the chassis is not working.



Example 2) Danny Bartholomew and I were talking after the BRL finals about rotors. I asked him how many rotors he used this year he said he had three. One in his 4300 motor, one in his 3.5 mod and the other in a spare motor. He had used these all season. When his chassis was working he was as fast as anyone in the country. Danny won a couple of 4300 events and the season ending All-Star race. If his rotors had faded over time do you think he would have been fast at the end of the season?


Example 3) Even I sometimes get caught up in the motor head games. I went to the Snowbirds this year and struggled a couple of laps of the pace. Thinking it had to be the motor I switched to a new one. Guess what I was still on the same pace with the new motor. I then gave my old (slow) motor to a friend of mine to use and he went out and qualified in the A-main with it. Lesson learned my car set-up stunk and next time I won’t even question the motor and will go straight to the chassis.

The common thread in the examples above is to be fast you have to have a good chassis set-up and be up on the wheel. The Novak motors and rotors are consistent enough that if you have 1 or 21 it really does not make a difference.



Quick fact the rotor does not degrade until it reaches a temp range of 220 or greater. If we were racing 6 cell touring cars that put a high load on the motor this tool might be helpful. But in a 4 cell pan car unless you really miss the gear I don’t see any real reason to question the rotor strength.

I’m sure Zubie’s new device will show each rotor is a little different but I also think baring a rotor that has been overheated the difference in on track performance between the highest and lowest will not be noticeable.

I'd second everything Sonny said. The Speed Meter may help determine when you've killed a rotor, but I don't see it effecting us any more than that.

I'd second everything Sonny said. The Speed Meter may help determine when you've killed a rotor, but I don't see it effecting us any more than that. I feel the same way and thought as much but figured it would have more weight and maybe get more attention cominng from someone like Sonny instead of me... Thanks

John's meter is very nice looking and does what he says it does if you are careful to repeat your measurement method. Although I have not seen the inside of it I am 99% sure of exactly what is in it, since this is what I do for a living. So, like I said it will do what he says it does.

I have been racing BL in oval since it started. I have the ability to very accurately test rotors any time I want at work, for free. That being said, I own two sintered rotors, one is in my 13.5 the other is in my 4300. I have never bothered to test them. That should say a lot. I did do some testing with the old gray rotors and found that a rotor with a year of very hard running on it versus a rotor with one battery pack run through it exhibited <2% loss in field.

I have now seen a rotor that is actually weak though. It probably came out of the package that way. That is something that happens when you deal with magnet vendors.

Some of the stuff getting thrown around in the other thread is off the wall so take what you read on this stuff with a big grain of salt.

Hey Sonny , How about the long standing question on the TIMING of the Brushless Motor?

So far I haven't got my chassis right w/ the B/L so it's not really an issue for me...but in watching RCTVlive.com deal with Mike Boylan adjusting the timing, you could certainly hear a RPM gain (No idea how much, or if that would even show up on the track)

What's your opinion on that subject? (I'm sure this may have been previously addressed, and I missed it...but I never saw it)

Hey Sonny , How about the long standing question on the TIMING of the Brushless Motor?

So far I haven't got my chassis right w/ the B/L so it's not really an issue for me...but in watching RCTVlive.com deal with Mike Boylan adjusting the timing, you could certainly hear a RPM gain (No idea how much, or if that would even show up on the track)

What's your opinion on that subject? (I'm sure this may have been previously addressed, and I missed it...but I never saw it)

Yes you could probably here the RMP gain but what you could not see was the major loss of torque and efficiency. A quick talk with Bob or Adnan would probably help to explain it better.

Yes you could probably here the RMP gain but what you could not see was the major loss of torque and efficiency. A quick talk with Bob or Adnan would probably help to explain it better.

This can be seen on a turbo dyno. From timing all the way down to all the way up there is about 2000rpm difference. The wattage output is the same but the torque curve does change. I think it does not matter where the timing is. You just have to gear for it. My guess is Brushless motors have so much rip as it is that it will run the same with high or low timing. Just gear it.

Greeting Great One, I hope your summer is going well for you, I look forword to the up coming BRL season. Your thoughts about my Meter were very predictible.

Example 1) We had a driver who ran very well last year in the BRL and changed rotors like they were water. In his mind he thought it was an advantage and you will probably never convince him otherwise. What he failed to realize was he simply had one of the best handling cars and was on top of his game behind the wheel all season. This same driver went to the finals and was a little off his normal pace through practice and qualifying. All during this time he was going about his normal routine of switching rotors but he was not picking up any speed. On track his car just did not look as good as it had at previous races. The chassis was off. As the weekend went on he figured out the chassis and was back up to speed.

My point is even if your one of the fast guys all the rotor changes in the world aren’t going to help you if the chassis is not working.

OK let me set this straight!!!! Since im the driver we are talking about here i'll explain my rotor swapping.... The first 5 or so races in the BRL I ran 1 rotor the entire time! The ONLY reason i was changing rotors EVERY RUN in Nebraska, and IL. was becouse after You teched Zubaks 5800 in nebraska and it passed as a legit 4300, i was beside myself trying to figure out why i was getting yanked 7ft down the straights. I had my sh1t together pretty good at that race and if zubaks motor waz a legit 4300, the only reason he could have been faster is becouse his motor waz fresher than mine. Yes i did purchase 10 rotors after the nebraska race, and i did try new rotors each run, but it did not make a difference like i waz hoping it would......Then while at Allens after zubaks motor waz discovered to be a 5800 that lifted a huge weight off my shoulders as far as second guessing my horsepower, that waz when i stopped worrying about swapping rotors every run and got my car right and things were back to how they were at the rest of the BRL races.

P.S.
Sonny the BRL races were some of the best races i have ever attended, you did a great job with this whole series, see ya in the fall. :thumbsup:

Originally Posted by Sonny B
Yes you could probably here the RMP gain but what you could not see was the major loss of torque and efficiency. A quick talk with Bob or Adnan would probably help to explain it better.



This can be seen on a turbo dyno. From timing all the way down to all the way up there is about 2000rpm difference. The wattage output is the same but the torque curve does change. I think it does not matter where the timing is. You just have to gear for it. My guess is Brushless motors have so much rip as it is that it will run the same with high or low timing. Just gear it.


Kinda what I was expecting...seems to me I've seen that trend before...LOL

Good explaination Frank - and one of the things I'm kinda worried about since pretty much ALL the Novak motors look the same...

I know I've seen some markings on the motor cans under the purple rings, but with so many of our guys getting their stuff second hand...I'll be watching for something that looks out of the ordinary on the straights...

Greeting Great One, I hope your summer is going well for you, I look forword to the up coming BRL season. Your thoughts about my Meter were very predictible.

XXX OOO XXX OOO Big Guy.

Your meter looks nice. Glad you could re-coop some of the money I cost you on the Juice empire. I can sleep now..... :o

Now you need to give a free one to Frank for all the rotors you made him buy. :tongue:

I know you just had to reach for the blood pressure pills when I said FREE.

See you in October. :wave:

2-PILLS!lol

I think that these meters are a bit pricey, but nonetheless, I can respect the innovation. You had to know that somekind of tuning/testing/dyno'ing device for brushless motors would be along sooner than later.

-E

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Here's an example of how the meter is very useful though: A buddy of mine has purchased the meter, and found one of his rotors to be about 200 points lower than the others(with a normal rotor being around 1280 I think). On the track this rotor ran the same lap times up front, but fell off an extra tenth or two, and came off 15deg warmer. Now these are symptoms that would often be blamed on chassis, tires, batteries, body, etc, when it actually was a rotor that had gotten weak. If you know your rotors are fresh, probably could live without the meter for now, but if you like running the same rotor forever(I'm still on my originals), definetely a nice thing to have around.

Here's an example of how the meter is very useful though: A buddy of mine has purchased the meter, and found one of his rotors to be about 200 points lower than the others(with a normal rotor being around 1280 I think). On the track this rotor ran the same lap times up front, but fell off an extra tenth or two, and came off 15deg warmer. Now these are symptoms that would often be blamed on chassis, tires, batteries, body, etc, when it actually was a rotor that had gotten weak. If you know your rotors are fresh, probably could live without the meter for now, but if you like running the same rotor forever(I'm still on my originals), definetely a nice thing to have around.

If you measure the old rotors that were in the 13.5 and 4300 motors originally you will understand why Kevin's statement above makes sense. Those old rotors only read about approx. 600 on the meter. And if you read a normal "brushed" motor's magnets.....well....they are pretty low.......which explains some of the reasons why brushless even prior to sintered rotors being legal in 10.5 and 13.5 did not fall off as much as brushed motors.

Thanks,
JW Housley

I have one question? Does Detroit Diesel know they are missing these meters Zuback is selling. No wonder the cost of a good diesel truck is so high.

-Monti-

If you measure the old rotors that were in the 13.5 and 4300 motors originally you will understand why Kevin's statement above makes sense. Those old rotors only read about approx. 600 on the meter. And if you read a normal "brushed" motor's magnets.....well....they are pretty low.......which explains some of the reasons why brushless even prior to sintered rotors being legal in 10.5 and 13.5 did not fall off as much as brushed motors.

Thanks,
JW Housley

Comparing magnets of different materials, shapes and sizes by gauss measurements at the face is misleading.

Comparing magnets of different materials, shapes and sizes by gauss measurements at the face is misleading.

Strength is Strength........regardless.

The point of a magnet is to do work across an air gap. If you want to know the relative strengths of two totally different magnets you need to measure at the same air gap and across the same range of motion as in the application.

A teeny little neo will have a higher gauss reading at the face then the large ceramic in a brushed motor that doesn't mean there is any chance it will be able to make the motor turn.

Anyway it doesn't matter.

Go Buy a Cummings!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol

I heard Horizon is temporarily out of rotors. Sonny "borrowed" them for a few days. John, you did not send him a meter did you???

Not Yet.

Not Yet.

Thanks but I've seen your car in the corners, I think my rotors from last season should work just fine to keep you behind me.... :tongue:

Go Buy a Cummings!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol

I don't get it, but just to clarify I was only talking about comparing completely different magnet designs. The face gauss measurement is perfectly fine for comparing one sintered rotor to another.

Pat he was talking to Monti about the Detriot diesel comment.

Gauge looks nice I will get with you when carpet season rolls
around.

Eric Knapp

Ahhh, why or how did Zubie run a 5800 in the 4300 class?

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=181048&page=4&pp=15

Read posts 47 and 48.

To sum it up a couple people made honest mistakes and he was running a 5800 thinking it was a 4300.

The Sky is Blue!

Ahhh, why or how did Zubie run a 5800 in the 4300 class?

He's a cheater! :tongue:

Frankie
I heard if you buy the speed meter it turns any 4300 into a 5800 rotor, lol
sorry had to throw a jab in there at big ol zubie

E. This thread is for racers only. You should check out the Diecast section.

Ern

:wave: :wave: :wave:

E., I hope that did not leave a bruise!

WOWWWWWWWWW, Ernie layin it down, ernie wanna meet up at freddies on the 24th!

That's what I thought, "He's a cheater!"

Just kidding! I never thought he was for a second. I was just curious.

Look at all the FUN I'm missing over here!! You guys behave yourself! lol Ernies coming to Freddies!! And if I can get Frankie off his Boat for a weekend he'll be there too.

pimpn aint easy (frankie)!

Your right Bugman, By BOAT, Or NORTHSTAR!!!lol