There has always been a debate in racing between the issue of SPEED and cars going as fast as they can, vs. car actually racing the other cars w/o real consideration to the speeds.

I know a lot of guys say "It's Racing - It's all about GOING AS FAST AS YOU CAN", where guys like me say "It's Racing the COMPETITION, not DRAG RACING" and a race where several cars are nose to tail, and/or side by side is exciting...and to me THAT'S racing.

That being said, some guys like the Thrill during their racing of having a car fast enough to be on the wild edge of being out of control, but what is enough speed?

It was noted this weekend at the NASCAR races in Dover that the 'premier CUP division' actually had the SLOWEST race cars on the track, compared with the Busch cars and the Craftsman Trucks....but did that make it any less of a race? So far (Since the CUP race is on right now due to rain delay...) I'd have to say NO.

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It all depends on the talent level of the drivers. If you saw the video of the 6 cell mod A-main at the Snowbirds you saw both speed and great racing. If we had enough guys at every race so that everyone was actually racing in the class they belonged in we'd have awesome racing at a wide range of speeds.

As it stands with our current class structure the best guys can run open modified and be perfectly under control while others cannot control their cars in 4 cell stock. It's all relative.

I am watching the cup race as I sit here and DW just mentioned that though the cars are SLOWER, the racing is BETTER! Speed does not necisarily make a GOOD race, even competion and driving make a good race. Had the MOD boys all been racing spec motors you can be assured that the racing would have been just as GOOD because to drive mod you have to know set up AND driving and THAT is what make GOOD racing. IMO Ralf

On the flip side if you take all the best drivers and place them in 4 cell stock the racing can become quite boring. Yeah it is nose to tail but passing sometimes starts becoming non-existent.

pms, very true...and that is part of the deal w/ oval racing these days...we just don't have all the HOTDOGS we did in the WAY back years...and for what ever reason - a lot of guys do find it much harder to drive NOW than back in the old 6 cell days...

COULD IT HAVE ANYTHING to DO w/ Hi-Tech Specialty Cars - that are so finely tuned...and equally FAST - that it is just really tough for a lot of the guys to compete at the 110% level you need to be at to be up front against the SUPER HOTDOGS...

pms, very true...and that is part of the deal w/ oval racing these days...we just don't have all the HOTDOGS we did in the WAY back years...and for what ever reason - a lot of guys do find it much harder to drive NOW than back in the old 6 cell days...

COULD IT HAVE ANYTHING to DO w/ Hi-Tech Specialty Cars - that are so finely tuned...and equally FAST - that it is just really tough for a lot of the guys to compete at the 110% level you need to be at to be up front against the SUPER HOTDOGS...


I don't know. In my opinion the cars have been at about the same technology level since the Woods cars were out. Tires have certainly advanced. I remember simply making the car work with greens and blues as opposed to having 10 different tire combinations I regularly run.

We just simply have fewer guys overall and 3 times as many classes as we did in the early 90's, so maybe it makes it more apparent the difference between the top guys and the bottom guys. It used to be you had full heats of guys all at similar skill levels now you generally have heats filled with guys getting lapped 5 times which of course leads to more crashing.

In some ways I think 4 cell stock is too slow even for beginners. I think it is difficult to learn set-up and feel what your car is doing in that class. It's easy to fall into the trap where the car feels perfectly fine but you're getting lapped over and over again. In the cell 6 days you had to learn how to get the car pretty decent to just make it around the track. The learning curve was steeper but guys improved their driving skill a lot with faster cars.

I've been a MOD guy for so long...I've never been really any good at it, but I love the rip of a good mod motor, but when I helped get our Local program going here a couple years ago, we started w/ 19t motors.

We had a HUGE track, probably over 300 ft, square cornered parking lot type track.

I felt Stock might feel and look a little slow, so we went with 19t's (Plus, since I basically put the deal together w/ my own equipment to get guys in...I had a large supply of 19t's thanks to KISBEY who had built our travelling series a batch of ZERO Degree 19t motors.)

These were too fast for several of the guys - and we did finally go to a STOCK Class late last year, and for those guys the racing became much better and a lot more fun. While there is group of us who still run the 19t...the other guys really like the car control they have with the 4 cell stock.

I ran in a STOCK based Truck class a couple weeks ago at the Racer's Haven track in Bakersfield - and the door to door racing was some of the most fun I've had in quite a while...the class had Shaky Dave, Lou Maldonado, Kevin Stevens and Myself that have a combined racing life of 80+ years...and I admit, it felt SLOW compared to what I'm use to...but it was a KICK.

Yeah don't get me wrong stock is plenty fast for a lot of guys. I did plenty of 4 cell stock racing (mostly for reasons other then liking the class) and it can be a blast at times, but it doesn't force you to become a good driver to simply get around the track. To be fast you of course need to be a good driver in stock like anything else.

My thought was maybe 6 cell racing back in the day kind of thinned the herd and only left the reasonably good drivers, because the guys who couldn't handle it quit. At the time nobody really cared that they quit since there were always 30-50 others at the track. Now that we need every driver we have it is nice to have a class where most people can wheel the car reasonably well. It just doesn't lead to races that are stacked with tons of talent like there once was.

How many classes does NASCAR have? Why do you think there is more than one or two? RAlf

To make more MONEY!

Comparing NASCAR to RC racing is apples to oranges.

Besides I said stock was a good thing for hanging onto more new guys. I'm not at all bad mouthing it, but it just doesn't lead to having many guys who are good enough to race mod well. That's why there are few mod racers and basically no new mod racers.

I just watched 3 very talented mod racers this past weekend race for 4 minutes all in a line at speeds over 67mph at the Indy Velo. It was one of the better races I've seen even though there wasn't much passing. On the flip side I've seen some pretty bad 4-cell stock/legend/T-spec racing at slow speeds. It isn't the speed, but the setup and talent behind the wheel.

If you appreciate oval racing you will appreciate watching a stacked heat of talented racers who know how to make a clean pass in 4-cell stock. You can also enjoy watching mod racers being patient if the racing is close trying to conserve a little battery until the end.

I think the only way to really settle this issue if for race directors to help place/force the people into the right class. Afterall, the time to learn how to setup a 6-cell mod car isn't in round 1, 2, or 3.

I recently had a discussion with a friend who's been mainly running in a sportsman stock class for several years... He was talking about the few times he ran mod and how much fun he had...but he said he felt he needed to move into the expert stock class before he tried mod racing.

I told him, running STOCK would never prepare him for MOD racing...that if he is thinking a about running mod...jump in with both feet...and learn.

We have a really good group of 'sportsman' type MOD racers, that race mod to have fun. They are usually willing to give everything in their entire setup to help another racer get on track and be competitive...which makes this transition even easier...

I think the only way to really settle this issue if for race directors to help place/force the people into the right class.

Forcing people into certain classes probably isn't the best way. People have all different reasons for choosing to race the class they do. People always want to write it off as sandbagging. More likely it is cost, enjoying racing with a certain group of guys, fear of being "in the way" or any of a dozen other reasons.

If a race director really feels someone should move up then the best way of attacking it would be to talk to the person privately and find out why they are in the class they are in. Maybe they just need some encouragement that they can handle it or that they can afford it. Besides having a faster guy in a class only raises the level of competition and helps bring the other guys up a level as they try chase down him/her.

fear of being "in the way"

Hey, THAT's ME

I enjoy running MOD with a certain group I race with, but the past few years we don't have a split SPORTSMAN - EXPERT mod group...and when the TOP LEVEL guys come run with us - it's scary.

To run with a Gary Hamilton, Erik Steenhoven, Humpty, Silva Brothers, Sean Cochran, Ken Collins, and some of the other west coast top dogs...I'd much rather be sitting on the sideline, or running in a B or C main...

Those guys perform their craft really well - and it's so impressive to watch them...I hate being the one in their way..holding them up.

To me if a car is working good it does'nt seem like it is going as fast as a car that is totally out of control. I would much rather watch cars going a little slower, but running competitively than one or two ballistic fast cars running away with the show. I think that when a couple of guys are blowing everybodies doors off every week some people(not including myself) tend to lose interest and the car count drops. I can name at least four different drivers from our local track that won't run oval any more because they can't beat a couple of guys at our track. Granted these are very talented racers who work very hard to run at the level that they do. I personally love to race with these guys because it has made me a 100 percent better driver then what I was 3 years ago. Lastly these few guys are the very first people to try and help out when someone is having a problem and 9 out of 10 times they greatly improve the car of who ever they help. If we had the car count to run four or five different classes these guys would be more then happy to run in a higher class. I personally would still run with them, because in order to be the best you must first beat the best.

One other thing I have seemed to notice with myself, is that sometimes it seems harder for me to run stock then for instance 19t or now 4300. I always thought that when I run stock the slower speed gives me two much of an oppertunity to drive the car instead of letting the car drive itself,which is what a good handleling car seems to do. Any thoughts on this?

I think a lot of guys would agree with that.

It was noted this weekend at the NASCAR races in Dover that the 'premier CUP division' actually had the SLOWEST race cars on the track, compared with the Busch cars and the Craftsman Trucks....but did that make it any less of a race? So far (Since the CUP race is on right now due to rain delay...) I'd have to say NO.

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Cup cars may have been the slowest, BUT, they don't run wide open all the way around the track, so actually your analogy doesn't fit ;) .
"What's enough speed"??? If you can pull the trigger full throttle at some point, you can use more speed :thumbsup: .
Cup cars tip toe around with the throttle because they have more power than the tires/chassis can handle, THEY ARE THE BEST DRIVERS and thats why it's a good race. Put the average racer in a cup car and see what happens, now put 10 of the best RC drivers in the world together with max power and see what happens...The same thing.

So I wish people would quit compairing so many aspects of RC to NASCAR, it just doesn't fit.

If speed is NOT better, why do all the stock racers want faster motors constantly???

A mod motor on a small track would ELIMINATE the need for the best battery/motor, now you just have to out drive, out handle everyone...NO???

Too many times I've heard "the track is too small for mod" I have to say, "ever hear of letting off the throttle??"

SO, I think "good racing" has lot's of "speed" it's just hard to find the people that are willing to LIFT :cool: .

Later, Bret

I'd rather watch and/or be in a good modified race anyday of the week twice on Sundays. Which is pretty had to come by these days.

My problem with "limited" motor racing is once the cream has risen(where driver talent is fairly equal) as a driver you are pretty much at the mercy of your car and there is no much you can do about once the race has started. You may be able to find a little better drive line but it is tough to overcome a car that is a tick off once you're in the race.

With modified, a lot more strategy and planning can go into setting that guy up for the perfect pass. You can put a lot more pressure on the car in front of you when you have the ability to lift, roll the throttle etc. when you are running stk, 19t, 4300, you are just wide open at all times. It takes a lot more disipline to run mod and that is what really separates the difference in the classes. Some guys can do it, some can't and most of us can do "most" of the time.

The biggest thing is when "stock" racing is bad it's bad. When Mod racing is bad it's REALLY bad.

I think you can have good racing at any speed. Each class seems to require a different set of talents to be fast. Drivers just need to pick the one they feel the most comfortable in.

Personally I like the mod class for the same reasons Danny mentioned above. Any time you make racer get out of the throttle it offers more opportunity for passing. I like the fact that if the set-up is a little off you can change the way the car handles with your throttle finger.

I'm with Danny, I always enjoy watching a good Mod race. It just doesn't seem to be that many good mod drivers to makeup a lot of good races. In a lot of big races, you have very good races in the B,C, and even the D mains.

I think a lot of people race in the mod class just because they love the speed. I like the slower racing because it seems that the racing is closer. When we raced dirt oval back in the old day with Bret the Jet, I had a Mod Sprint driver tell me that he liked mod racing, because if he made a mistake that he had the horsepower to make it up. He said he wasn't a good enough driver to run stock, because if you make a mistake, you can't make it up. Well, if you're in any class with good drivers, with good cars, you can't make a mistake and make it up.

I think the 13.5 class in the BRL class really surprised a lot people, including Sonny. I think the class next season will be bigger than the 4300 class. Why is this? It could be that some drivers can't compete with the 4300 cars or maybe they enjoyed the close racing.

I'll watch mod and race 13.5.

If speed is NOT better, why do all the stock racers want faster motors constantly???

TO BEAT THEIR COMPETITION~

It's the easiest way to want to WIN - MORE POWER...but once one gets it...the next guy gets it..and the WANT for MORE starts all over again.

I do think track size does make a difference.

Myself as a driver, I think I could do better in 4300 at a track like the Hobbyplex in Omaha than at Allen's RC.

When I race at Storm Steel in Cedar Rapids, I like the speed of 4300 on the big track. Plus I get to race with Danny B and only be in the way for only 1 pass.

...MK, as the late night informercial reminds us every night...

SIZE MATTERS

I see some of our guys have a lot of fun running 19t or Mod on our Velodrome events, but drop down to Stock on the short flat tracks...

Our short flat tracks (Or what we consider short) look like Super Speedways compared to some of the mid-west and south-east tracks.

I love MOD - But I don't think I'd ever try mod at the track on the tennis court in Florida, or on some of these carpet tracks that appear to be 30 ft long racing around a 2 x 4.

MK, I couldn't have said it better myself!!!!!!!

swtour-Don't forget about the spam we get all the time too.:D

AJ-See you Saturday under the lights on the BIG track.:thumbsup:

I would love to try and run mod at our track. The only problem is that there are only about three maybe four guys that could do it. Heck alot of the guys that just run stock seem to take there cars home in peices every week. I am afraid if they tried to run mod we would never see them again.

great thread!

florida has used the ultrabird motors for 3 years now in the 19 turn class.

why? close racing! eliminated the motor of the month and was easy to tech.

we are doing the same as the BRL series in brushless..novak 10.5 or 13.5 only.

we just do not care if a faster motor is available..we like close racing...we do not want the pro joe with a new orion 10.5 blowing away the field because they have a better rotor...keep costs down..keep the racing close.... open mod is the place for all out speed..and i can tell you only 10% of the racers can handle full mod speeds and you don't see 10 cars finish on the same lap on the local level...

so yes i am all for close racing

Me. I'm a Open Mod guy. Love to go fast. But last week looking to be our last mod race due to low entries, I ran 4300BL class. Way fun. Looks like I'll be running 4300 BL for our next series.

[QUOTE=swtour]Hey, THAT's ME

I have competed in stock for 2 sesons now, and still get nervous on the stand about wrecking with another driver because I am slower. What is the proper way to pass? Several laps in to the heat, the faster drivers are starting to lap the field and they should pass on the outside, while the slower car is running his line. I could have put extra money in my 401k, for the spur gears I have bought during this time!!!! LOL!

Yeah, Sometimes it's a tough call. If i'm the slower car (being lapped), I always give up the line, prefer in the corner. I try to work with the guys. Let them know where to go. Not where to! LOL. but like either "I'll go high" or for them to "Go inside". Better to give up a little then to lose alot in a wreck. Both guys are happy. Clean Passing. ;)

[QUOTE=swtour]Hey, THAT's ME

I have competed in stock for 2 sesons now, and still get nervous on the stand about wrecking with another driver because I am slower. What is the proper way to pass? Several laps in to the heat, the faster drivers are starting to lap the field and they should pass on the outside, while the slower car is running his line. I could have put extra money in my 401k, for the spur gears I have bought during this time!!!! LOL!


The only time you should be getting passed on the outside is if you pull to the inside and lift on the straightaway. I wish more guys would be willing to do that, but more often then not they only want to be passed in the corners. In the corner you must move over and give the inside line. If you aren't doing that it might explain why you're draining the 401K buying spur gears! :p

I don’t think there is any steadfast answer to “where” you should let off or move over if you are slower, each situation is a little different and it’s all part of the learning process. The major and I really mean “major” point here is; you are realizing that you should lift and/or move over.

It should also be emphasized that this also holds true in the qualifiers. Qualifying is just that “qualifying”, it’s NOT racing, at least not in the true since of the word. Time constraints not to mention the “fun factor” doesn’t allow us to run two lap qualifiers like NASCAR does so we do it in heat’s.

The sooner a new racer understands that not only he but the ones he is racing against will have a better spot in the Main if they can stay clean and let the fast guys go, the more control they will learn to have over their car and the higher up they will qualify as well.

i hope he was kidding when he said the faster cars should pass you on the high side?

the reason the fast guy is fast is because he can run the low groove and maintain speed...yikes!

How many spur gears wasted and you havent learnt to move over yet! LOL! j/k.


I think the best advice to a newbie isn't move, when you tell them that it adds another factor in to make them that more nervous.

I believe ("teach them ") tell them to hold thier line, rather then being a racoon with inflamed hemroids zig zagging in front of me! It's better for the experianced driver to pass the newbie and easier for the poor nervous wreck next to you!



If they learn to hold their line with time as they get more wheel time and learn more about racing ( hopefully reading a driving book or mentored) it will be easier for them.

Something racing organisations may want to try is provide a "text book" of racing, and driver etiquete (on track) for newbies (membership in general). Full scale racing has these and its called driving school required for a competition license.

This will then get better as the newbie moves up in level's.

As a requirement these booklets can have a small test on the back. The newbie will then show the test to a club official to verify on paper that at least they have a knowledge of it. The later may not happen but a small flyer with the 10 most important on track things a newbie needs to know ( everybody!).

May save some newbies some cash not getting beat up more then they beat them selves up!! Save them 50% :thumbsup:

Book???? newbies don't need a book they need people to talk and take the time to get them up to speed, we do and are newbies don't stay that way for long we even take the time to open the track on off days for pratice stay late to get them some more run time and help to set-up there car. We need more newbies!!!!!!

...one of my petpeeves moreso than the passing issue is TALKING or lack of it...

Now I know some guys are so focused on their car...they don't know HOW to talk...but this is nearly as important as good driving when you are running with mixed classes of drivers and/or racers who you don't know their driving style.

Those who know me...know I'll STUFF MY CAR in the wall trying to get out of your way...but sadly, too often that also causes a crash with ME and the guy running 2 or 3 cars back...cause I move too damn far..and get into the marbles and lose the car..and end up taking out 3rd place.

I let 'being intimidated' get in my brain. I'm at best a "B" main driver in a 25-30 car field...but I am usually more comfortable running with the BEST guys, cause I know they will be a little more patient...than the mid level guys who are running just small tick faster than I am running...and give a lot less.

I will usually tell the guys around me...TAKE THE BOTTOM..I'll go HIGH going INTO the corner... I don't do well being passed coming off, or on straights...but I WILL give it up going IN.

Katfish - I've been on several tracks that it would be MUCH better to pass on the OUTSIDE - on the STRAIGHTS anyway. Small Carpet comes to mind with a good infield when the slower car can drop down out of the way instead of going wide and getting run into...but to me it all depends on the track layout.

VELO - LOW SIDE ...high side usually gets you a 50+ mph piece of PLYWOOD in your grille

METRO - LOW SIDE ...high side gets you in the marble on caps..and IN THE WALL you go...

Racer's Haven - LOW SIDE ...high side gets dirty...plus will cost you .4 seconds

Central Coast Racing's track - HIGH SIDE on straights - High going into corners...LOW coming off. (Very rectangled track w/inside springy walls...a pass 2 low...STOPS the car if the guy pinches you in the slightest.

Bending Corners carpet - HIGH SIDE on straights, low side in corners (Line drifts all the way to outside wall, or close to it...if you pass on the bottom, you will NOT get into the corner and will usually get rearended.

Thirdplace IS one of the better guys out here at being passed, and knowing when it's time to let the other guy go..vs totalling the car.

(Richard - Don't know about HRH, but I don't think MOD will die in the 'tour' , just not sure where it will go...but 4300 is getting big enough IT's the class to WIN for bragging rights for sure.)

One other thing I have seemed to notice with myself, is that sometimes it seems harder for me to run stock then for instance 19t or now 4300. I always thought that when I run stock the slower speed gives me two much of an oppertunity to drive the car instead of letting the car drive itself,which is what a good handleling car seems to do. Any thoughts on this?
I totally agree. It's much easier to maintain your rhythm the faster you go.
Kinda like playing a musical instrument. It's much harder to play REALLY SLOW and sound good, than it is to play at a faster tempo and sound good.
Also, the faster you go, the over-thinking drops off.
Stock is just a whole other ball-game.

[QUOTE=swtour I will usually tell the guys around me...TAKE THE BOTTOM..I'll go HIGH going INTO the corner... I don't do well being passed coming off, or on straights...but I WILL give it up going IN.

[/QUOTE]

By far the best way to let a faster driver by.
Entering the turn HIGH will allow the faster car to maintain speed, and you'll lose almost nothing.

PLEASE, PLEASE, dont lift on the straight to let someone by.

Just enter high, and everything will go smooth :thumbsup:

PLEASE, PLEASE, dont lift on the straight to let someone by.

Just enter high, and everything will go smooth :thumbsup:

I don't see a problem with pulling inside on the straightaway and lifting to let someone by. Obviously that isn't the norm but I really wish it was. It would eliminate the two most common things I see.

1. The slower guy gives you a whopping 8" of space to pass with a 7" wide car then shouts at you when you punt him.

2. The slower guy does give you enough space going in but then refuses to lift coming off the corner and pulls the old cross over move back underneath you and punts you.

There is a difference of "pulling inside" and "running a line from turn to turn". I have had set-ups that allowed me to "turn with the ice" no matter the speed I was running. In doing that allowed the quickest time, and if your are faster - coming up to me, there I am running full tilt and bang!, the faster car could not pass on the right???? or lift to realize that two objects can not occupy the same space at the same time???

Thanks for all opinions and answers!!
1. The slower guy gives you a whopping 8" of space to pass with a 7" wide car then shouts at you when you punt him.

If He is low into the corner, does he not have the line?


2. The slower guy does give you enough space going in but then refuses to lift coming off the corner and pulls the old cross over move back underneath you and punts you..

Lift coming off the corner? Is that not the time to nail it? If you nail it first as the fastestes car-would you not go wide?

Kid

There is a difference of "pulling inside" and "running a line from turn to turn". I have had set-ups that allowed me to "turn with the ice" no matter the speed I was running. In doing that allowed the quickest time, and if your are faster - coming up to me, there I am running full tilt and bang!, the faster car could not pass on the right???? or lift to realize that two objects can not occupy the same space at the same time???

Thanks for all opinions and answers!!
1. The slower guy gives you a whopping 8" of space to pass with a 7" wide car then shouts at you when you punt him.

If He is low into the corner, does he not have the line?


2. The slower guy does give you enough space going in but then refuses to lift coming off the corner and pulls the old cross over move back underneath you and punts you..

Lift coming off the corner? Is that not the time to nail it? If you nail it first as the fastestes car-would you not go wide?

Kid

Uh wow. The point of qualifying is for everyone to get their best opportunity to get a good run in, not just you. Unless you are monumentally slow it is nearly impossible for the faster car to pass on the outside in a corner. You must yield the inside line. If you don't move out of the way eventually even the most patient racer will move you.

Responses....

1. The point is he is moving over to yield the line, but occasionallly more then the bare minimum amount of space is needed.

2. If the faster car pinches it to get under you into the corner and you run a nice wide arcing line in then you will be faster off the corner. In that situation you must lift and not repass or crash the faster car.

If you've watched real racing this is exactly how it plays out there too. It is universal racing ettiquette.

HA! pmsimkins is now getting to something that I have always felt is part of the root of some of our problems...

RACING vs. QUALIFYING (hmmm another thread subject, from the long list of other thread subject yet to come....LOL)

To some guys, the qualifying IS their race..and that is just as much a huge part of the day as the mains... To others, this is simply a chance to try to SHATTER a track record regardless of who and/or what is in the way. (I know, personal bests, the challenge, etc...all perfectly valid)

Another one of my gripes is - 'THE EVENT' a local club race or at least an event in that size range...where ALL the entries per class are QUALIFIED for the "A" main w/o even putting them on the track.

On race days like that...WHY are guys trying so hard to put the 8th or 10th place car 10 laps down. Why not give a little..and let those guys have a little fun too....

This is also why I like, especially on tight short tracks the 'STAGGERED' start feature (aka IFMAR starts). However, I don't use them like I would on a road course where you start each car, pause and start the next...start them ALL at the same time on the TONE, BUT nobody is "ON the CLOCK" until they cross the S/F line, so there is NO need to be the first guy into turn ONE and have that 5 car pile up.

Then in the MAIN - it's RACING as usual. Makes for SO much cleaner qualifying...but the downside to many is - it's takes racing OUT of the Qualifiers...and it is confusing, because you may THINK you are leading..because nobody passed you..and find out you were LAST because they just lagged back and had a clear track to race...and started 3/4 of a lap behind you.

2. If the faster car pinches it to get under you into the corner and you run a nice wide arcing line in then you will be faster off the corner. In that situation you must lift and not repass or crash the faster car.

If you've watched real racing this is exactly how it plays out there too. It is universal racing ettiquette.

I can not tell you how many times I have seen this maneuver. The slower car will give the faster car just enough room to go low and pinch him/her off and either punt the car on exit or pass right by again raising everyone's blood pressure a notch.

I had the chance to race in a town about 100 miles from me this weekend and it was awesome. I saw slower cars lift a little coming off and the racing was very clean. Racers were walking off the drivers stand all smiles and handshakes commenting on what fun the racing was that day.

2. The slower guy does give you enough space going in but then refuses to lift coming off the corner and pulls the old cross over move back underneath you and punts you..

Lift coming off the corner? Is that not the time to nail it? If you nail it first as the fastestes car-would you not go wide?

Kid

Here in lies your biggest problem! People learn you drive this way(which is totally wrong) and instead of wasting there time with trying the clean way they just punt you cause they know you won't make the right decision if things get tight. It's called being raced how you race them! Learning the right way to race and then doing it for long enough so everyone can see you have changed your driving style will eventually pay off as you earn some of the respect that you have lost.

I think and have tried to preach to new and even some old racers that it is all about respect. I feel that if I show someone respect by getting out of their way and not dumping them coming off of the corner that some day the coin will flip and they will give me that same respect some day. We have a few guys that no matter if it is the first time or the fifth time you are lapping them they will race the crap out of you and it usually ends up in a big wreck with people getting mad. Some people just don't get it, and probably never will. Some times to go faster you must slow down!

I think I'm going to design a rear bumper...so that I can make a pass..and NOT have my rear tire driven over when they dive too deep into the corner trying not to lose the spot...