The article on the brushless/lipo combination is NOW on the RC Oval web site! Chack it out.. Ralf

It is a good article but it only shows the positives what about the negatives. Like what happens when some one figures out how to match them. Like anything you build the battery with better componets you will have a better battery. What about all the battery compinies what will happen to them. What about all the compinies that will start producing batteries. Is racing going to be one Motor (Being Novak) and one battery (Orion). Will there be anyone to sponsor races. What about the weight of the lipo cells. I am not trying to be negative I want to know all the facts.

Easy there Joe. You can see it in person next weekend @ The Mill.

Thanks Ralph.

Losi888, you have some good points but at this stage I don’t feel that it’s good to get that far ahead of the game. As with everything else that's this new, LiPo racing has to attract enough racers before some of your issues can be addressed. Right now I think we should concentrate on getting this thing started with the rules that are being established and let it work some of its own problems out and not be overly concerned about things that we have no control over. If matchers get involved or it is opened up to every motor and battery manufacturer that comes down the pike, we have no control over it.

As for the weight the LiPo pack weighs approximately 7 ozs.

It is a good article but it only shows the positives what about the negatives. Like what happens when some one figures out how to match them. Like anything you build the battery with better componets you will have a better battery. What about all the battery compinies what will happen to them. What about all the compinies that will start producing batteries. Is racing going to be one Motor (Being Novak) and one battery (Orion). Will there be anyone to sponsor races. What about the weight of the lipo cells. I am not trying to be negative I want to know all the facts. You make some VERY GOOD points, which make the best argument for keeping classes limited to ONE battery supplier, and ONE motor supplier. Then you eliminate the battery and motor of the week wars which drive costs up and people away from the sport/hobby. Good work McLin ! Enjoy your web site very much, wish you would win the lottery and have more time to devote to writing articles. Keep it up. Ralf

Great story something for us all to keep an eye on,

I saw on another site a post from a tech at Orion. He posts there alot. He said that the Orion/ peak packs are all ready matched. He said that if they were not, they won't last as long. That is one of the advantage's to the Orion/ Peak lipos. He also said that there won't be any improvement in cell chemistry (not soon, anyway), just improvement in capacity's and lower cost. People don't have to worry about the "super matched, super high voltage pack".

Mclin what do have wrapped up as far as cost goes for the lipos charger safe box etc.

The Orion Carbon 3200 pack is around $85 and their Advantage charger is around $180. Unless you are racing more than one car, you will only need one LiPo pack. There is no need for a safe box. The packs do not get hot at all but you MUST use a charger that is made for LiPo batteries. The good ones are pretty much fool proof.

Mclin what do have wrapped up as far as cost goes for the lipos charger safe box etc.

Jason.

I bought my charger (Orion Advantage) new on ebay for $99.00 and the battery was $89 shipped to my door. Roughly the same cost as (4) 4200's.

Concerning the safe box; as I have posted before, I charged the same pack over and over, from track to charger SEVEN times and always left it in the car. The pack never got over 10 degrees above room temperature during a run and actually “cooled down” while it was being recharged.

There was considerable concern about safety when these batteries first came out but the Orion’s that are in a hard case like the Carbon packs are, in my opinion, safer than NiMH. Of course anything is dangerous if it is abused.

The key to the safety of the LiPo’s is the charge rate. 3.2 Amps for the 3200 packs. LiPo’s are more prone to “voltage” charging than they are “Amps”. By the time the pack is peaking, the amps are down to almost nothing and the voltage is lock at a little over 8 volts. This allows for the cool charging and a standard charger will not do that. This is the reason that you must use a LiPo charger.

I use the Orion "advanced Flight charger" for my LiPo packs. Great charger for around $80 and recommended by orion for their packs.
Whats the web address for RC Oval?
I also read that Orion says we can charge the 3200's at 2C... thats about 6 amps... that will cut down the charging time a lot

www.rc-oval.com

I ran my Lipo this weekend and it was great and if you use a charger that is made only for the orion/peak 2s1p lipo packs like the one found here http://www.fmadirect.com/Products.htm?cat=32&nid=24 you won't have issues selecting the wrong # of cells nor can the charger choose the wrong # of cells cause it only charges these type of packs.

I made 4 runs breaking in tires and the car was faster with 13.5/3200lipo than 4cell/4300 and the setup was off on the car. Loads of fun!

One would think that a single motor and a single battery only for the classwould be a bad thing but Novak has been awesome with any problems that have come about during the development of the brushless systems. If it aint broke don't fix it, I say. I know very little about Orion but so far I have heard nothing but good things concerning the lipo batteries. I have the 3200 pack and the matching Orion charger but have not tried them yet. I will be doing so in the next week or so as everyone is raving about the set up, lowest motor I have though is a 13.5 so I am sure it will e fast. As far as not having any sponsors, I wouldn't worry about that. There are several body, car, tire, accessory companies out there to fill the gap. Some notables are IRS (is there anything these guys don't build?) Hyperdrive, MSA, Lefthander ( a huge supporter of oval races) BSR, CRC, McAllister, Bandit, Raceway Manufacturing and many many more. Oval racing on the way back up thanks to Novak and hopefully Orion. Maybe Orion will stick to batteries and Novak to motors respectively so there is no dissention within the ranks.It is a good article but it only shows the positives what about the negatives. Like what happens when some one figures out how to match them. Like anything you build the battery with better componets you will have a better battery. What about all the battery compinies what will happen to them. What about all the compinies that will start producing batteries. Is racing going to be one Motor (Being Novak) and one battery (Orion). Will there be anyone to sponsor races. What about the weight of the lipo cells. I am not trying to be negative I want to know all the facts.

No motor or battery sponsors is going to be a real bad thing. That will mean that the only thing keeping me from running with Humpty and Gary is TALENT! I'm not sure I can deal with "no more excuses"! LOL

No organization, no one class, no "one" will ever stop the person with the most money and/or talent and knowledge from being on top of any type of competition. However, by keeping in check the amount of manufacturers that produce the product will hold down the competition between those manufacturers. When you do that, there will be no need for anyone to have "special" stuff because "everyone" will be running the same thing.

When this happens, I can see manufacturers concentrating on the "talent" of their team drivers and not just who can handle the most horsepower.

...it's funny, but one of the things I keep hearing on the negative side of the LIPO's is the "MATCHING" issue.

as far as I'm concerned..THAT is a DEAD issue..and this is why~

We match CELLs, matchers match 100's, 1000's, 10,000's of 'CELLS'. Those cells are then seperated by their RUN TIME - VOLTAGE and I/R numbers and sorted Best to Worst. Then they are put together as "MATCHING NUMBER" cells as closely as possible, to give the BEST Punch, Runtime, etc.

With the LIPO, especially the Peak/ORION style lipo's in a sealed case... YOU Cannot seperate the cells (which is the point of MATCHING)

You WILL be able to buy a LOT of BATTERIES and Test for DISCHARGE CURVE and use "The Best" pack in the pile....which might create the issue of guys buying 10 - 12 packs per racer in a search for a battery putting out 8.21 volts vs. one only putting uot 8.19 volts. Maybe they will even find one that puts out a full .09 difference which could be a 1.1% difference. Big Deal...

The GOOD thing about the guys who do this... MORE batteries will be sold...which will really open up the USED battery market for guys on a smaller budget... They'll probably be able to pick up a really good used pack for 40-50 bucks. (I just bought 2 used ones for $55.00 each...and so far they have tested EXACTLY the same as the NEW one I bought the week before)

Good point Joe!

No motor or battery sponsors is going to be a real bad thing. That will mean that the only thing keeping me from running with Humpty and Gary is TALENT! I'm not sure I can deal with "no more excuses"! LOL

And that is the problem. The realality is too much for them. Some guy's can't handle it.

Their still will be factory deals on cars,batteries,and motors how long do you think it will take for the motor guys to figure out how to tune a brushless motor trust me it will happen this sport it just like any other racing people find ways to go fast look at cup they been trying to keep all the cars the same for years it has'nt happened yet brushless is fun and new but I don't think it is the overnight answer for even racing.

Their still will be factory deals on cars,batteries,and motors how long do you think it will take for the motor guys to figure out how to tune a brushless motor trust me it will happen this sport it just like any other racing people find ways to go fast look at cup they been trying to keep all the cars the same for years it has'nt happened yet brushless is fun and new but I don't think it is the overnight answer for even racing. IT is still the best thing to come along since people started to race RC cars... IMO Ralf

I couldn't stand it anymore, I put the 3200 lipo in with a 13.5 in my old HD 500 car and WOW! I ran at least 3 10th's faster than 4 cell 4300 and I did it for 15 minutes straight! The batteries came off cool and the motor might have been 90 degrees. I could have put more gear on but why, it's hard to drive the car around the track much faster. I'm sold!

the cream will still rise to the top. this is very cool can you imagine when the pros get there hands on it. gonna be even faster then mod cars!

LOL Cliff - ANOTHER ONE SOLD~

IT is still the best thing to come along since people started to race RC cars... IMO Ralf
Not disagreeing with that brushless is fun . :thumbsup:

Yea, John is going to sell a pile of radials for sure! I can't stop driving the thing.LOL Cliff - ANOTHER ONE SOLD~

McLin,
I just ordered 2 3200 lipo packs to run with my 4300 motor at Trax 70 soon. I have the charger and can't wait for the batteries to get here. I liked reading what everyone had to say on this thread and it gave me some new info. I will let you know how it works out. :thumbsup:

Dave (Diff Dude) Irrgang

I thought that when we went from 6 cell to 4 cell was to slow the cars down a little, save on tires, cars, etc...Now, we seem to be going back the other way! Don't know what to think now!http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/images/icons/icon5.gif

McLin,
I just ordered 2 3200 lipo packs to run with my 4300 motor at Trax 70 soon. I have the charger and can't wait for the batteries to get here. I liked reading what everyone had to say on this thread and it gave me some new info. I will let you know how it works out. :thumbsup:

Dave (Diff Dude) Irrgang

I'll be there with "dust buster "to pick up the pieces:roll: .Of course if you don't total it the first time out ,I would like to run a few laps.

I thought that when we went from 6 cell to 4 cell was to slow the cars down a little, save on tires, cars, etc...Now, we seem to be going back the other way! Don't know what to think now!http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/images/icons/icon5.gif These batteries were developed maily for touring cars, off-road, and bashers that are all still running 6-cell packs, not enough people in Oval that most mfgs (except NOVAK) ignore us. NOVAK is working with some people in Oval (mainly ARCOR) to develop a brushless motor (guess you haven't been reading the threads) coupled with the LIPOs that will give speeds similar to 4-cell brushed motors. During the testing some of the guys were trying the lipo with the 4300 motor and found that they got speeds similar to a MOD with 4-cells. So actually speeds are not reallly going to be going UP that much. Hopefully the new motor will become available within the next 4-6 months. Ralf

Ralf,

Very well said~

Andy,

Another thing we did in switching to 4 cells was to lighten the cars... I don't remember ROAR's weight back then, but NORRCA (who I was involved with) was 42 oz for EXPERT classes and 44 oz for Sportsman classes.

We dropped the weight rule with the switch to 4 cell all the way to 38oz...and dropped the different weight between Sportsman and Expert classes.

I believe ROAR's weight is now HEAVIER than it was with 6 cell...and speeds are almost as fast as they were before the switch (although they would be much faster today due to the higher quality motors and vastly higher voltage cells)

I would have to guess using the mentality ROAR used in increasing the weight rules....that a 6 cell pan car should now weigh over 50 ozs. (3lbs, 2 oz)

Also, using the same mentality (raise the weight because the newer batteries are heavier) then a LIPO class should only be required to weigh 32 oz...cause they are EXTREMELY light.

(I've kept our little series at 38 oz for 4 cell...and plan to keep it at 38 oz for LIPO as well.)

Also, here are some comparisons on 4 cell MOD vs. 4300 LIPO

Scot Petitclerc - Encino Velodrome - May 19th.

32/5:03.16 Scot Petitclerc - 4 cell w/ 3.5 B/L Motor
32/5:00.54 Scot Petitclerc - 10.5/4300 B/L w/ a 3200 Peak/Orion LIPO

Jeff "HUMPTY" Helms - PCSO @ the RCSports Mania April '07

63/4:01.27 Jeff (HUMPTY) Helms - 10.5/4300 w/ LIPO (The were not regulated to the 3200, not sure which battery Humpty ran)

64/4:01.89 Ken Collins - 4 cell MODIFIED (I believe Kenny was using a 6x1 BRUSHED motor..and this is a NEW track record)

First, I was told I'd only have to buy one motor to run the B/L thing. So I bought a 4300, (slowest at the time), Okay, now we're set for awhile. Then came the 13.5 and I thought that was gonna be it. Now it looks like those 2 will end up sitting in the box somewhere once I've been persuaded to buy the latest, to run with everyone else. What's it gonna be, 17.5, 20.5 or ...? So much for buying one motor and lasting for years!!!

And now comes the battery thing!!!

...Andy,

I don't think ANYONE should buy into the "Only need to buy ONE motor" deal. The MFG's will make sure of that.

At the same time...a USED B/L motor should be a lot easier to sell than a USED B/L motor..and there WILL be a market for them.

The 17.5's we've tested so far...will make a GREAT motor that the speeds will be very close to equalling 4 cell 4300

The NEWEST Test motors, I don't know if they've hit a track yet...but they are higher than a 20.5.

What those of us who are testing are encouraging...is patience. Let the motor deal get shaken down... The 13.5 and 10.5's are great motors and WILL have a class in the future. It just depends on what/where you race is going to do for battery rules.

LIPOs and B/L motors WILL get replace...probably as often as current stuff...the difference will be the NEED to replace them vs. the DESIRE to replace them.

RACERS like to spend money and LOOK for an advantge.

Budget racers like to stay with ONE THING and let everyone else fight it out...

B/L & LIPO could make BOTH of those camps happy.

...NOTE on What's Sitting in the BOX:

I have left close to 20 19t motors, 25+ MOD motors (Some over 10 years old) 1/2 dozen STOCK motors. MOST of these I'd never be able to re-sell and get more than 10bucks each out of...I just STUCK this box away on a shelf in my garage.

I also have 4 - 4300 motors - 1 LRP/REEDY Neo1`, a 13.5 ....oh and this 17.5 TEST motor sitting in my new BRUSHLESS Box.

I have 4 - 4300's because I run multiple classes...and I field a car for myself and my son...so that's basically ONE motor for each of our cars. I will soon have 3 more 13.5's as well. (ALL OF THESE WERE BOUGHT USED and MOST do NOT have the SINTERED ROTORS)

While some guys say...YOU WILL ONLY NEED ONE...I'd bet most guys will have 3 or 4..just because~

Yea I know what you mean. Gotta find that "Sweet" one. Just like the battery pack. I just might be one of those guys that don't want to accept "Change" very well! Must be the "Getting Older" part!!!

Is a monopoly in racing a good thing? It is if the manufacturer that is in control listens to the racers and produces a quality product that is affordable.

Good - Novak has embraced brushless oval and to this point is producing fairly priced quality products. I applaude their efforts.

Nuetral - Orion seems to be interested in manufacturing safe lipo packs. Can they produce enough as the demand increases?

Bad - AMB has been gouging everyone on personal transponders for years. They have a corner on the market and take full advantage of their position.

As long as the current players in the Brushless/Lipo arena are fair, I think it is a great thing for all racers. It may be unfortunate that current battery matchers are left behind, but I'm all for technology that makes it cheaper for me to race.

Who needs AMB anymore? Get one of these and your troubles are over.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=186046

I decided I'm not going to step up to the Lipo (if and when) racing if it become the norm. I decided witht he ready RTR kits and Brushless motors and Plug and Plug and play batteries. This is not a hobby anymore. Nothing to work on, nothing to build, why do it. I'd just have a expensive radoshack car. So when the time comes I'll retire from RC.

I decided I'm not going to step up to the Lipo (if and when) racing if it become the norm. I decided witht he ready RTR kits and Brushless motors and Plug and Plug and play batteries. This is not a hobby anymore. Nothing to work on, nothing to build, why do it. I'd just have a expensive radoshack car. So when the time comes I'll retire from RC.

I'm not as fired up on the lipos as some. Although not for love of messing with NiMH cells, just because in the end if they become the norm for serious racing I'll bet they end up being no better then NiMH in most respects. Which is fine because I don't think NiMH batteries we have currently are all that bad. Run, discharge, dead short, put away. Not that hard. Yes, I did say dead short.

First I have yet to see a ready to run (and win) oval kit. When you say stuff like this as you have in the past I've always wondered something. You seem like a guy who typically never has time to come to the track and race. If you don't have time to come to the track and race how do you have time to build motors etc?

On a weekly basis do you......

Clean all bearings and oil them
Rebuild all shocks
Clean and relube kingpins, polish depending on the brand you run
Take apart diff, thoroughly clean spur and diff balls, sand diff rings, lube and rebuild
Remove T-Plate, check and see if it is tweaked. If it is, replace it or do what I do and swear at it and then put it back on the car.
Check every single moving part for binding, if binding then fix or replace.
Clean any and everything not covered above.
Fix any other damage you discover.
Make set-up changes for the next week.

If you do that each and every time you race it ought to easily use up a lot of your free time and it'll do more for your lap times then all the motor building and battery cycling in the world will do.

LOL, I wanna answer this one for me...


On a weekly basis do you......

Clean all bearings and oil them - NO
Rebuild all shocksNO
Clean and relube kingpins, polish depending on the brand you runNO
Take apart diff, thoroughly clean spur and diff balls, sand diff rings, lube and rebuildNO
Remove T-Plate, check and see if it is tweaked. If it is, replace it or do what I do and swear at it and then put it back on the car.NO
Check every single moving part for binding, if binding then fix or replace.NO
Clean any and everything not covered above.NO
Fix any other damage you discover.NO
Make set-up changes for the next week.NO

do that each and every time you race it ought to easily use up a lot of your free and it'll do more your lap times then all the motor building and battery cycling in the world will do

In my case, I race to have a good time - and ANY/EVERYTIME It seems I do spend time tearing down and working on stuff....I just go BREAK IT - if I leave it alone...it gets me around the track and I can adjust or work on it "at the track" while being in the company of other guys bashing and thrashing on their cars...LOLOL

That's the part that's FUN to ME~

Yeah I don't do all of that either every week, a fair amount though. But, do you see my point in saying that if you aren't doing all those things every week it doesn't make sense to say you're going to quit because there is nothing to work on anymore?

I decided I'm not going to step up to the Lipo (if and when) racing if it become the norm. I decided witht he ready RTR kits and Brushless motors and Plug and Plug and play batteries. This is not a hobby anymore. Nothing to work on, nothing to build, why do it. I'd just have a expensive radoshack car. So when the time comes I'll retire from RC. GOODBYE

Happy Trails

I agree that working on your car is more fun then building batteries. The brushless and lipo thing is cool because you don't have to worry about those things. To me the fun comes from trying to get your car going faster. If you can take out the variables of the motor and battery, then you are left with just the chassis. That right there is enough to keep anyone busy.

SW- You are right about that!

This is not a slam on Hock or anyone for that matter but people have said what he did for years. Whenever there is a change in something, people get upset and what we are doing now with brushless and LiPo’s is a huge change.

When we went from yellow batteries to the red “rapid charge” batteries, people quit. In fact, every time there has been a battery change we lose racers at some level. Now we have a chance to go to a battery that will at the least slow that process down, not to mention cut back drastically on the amount of batteries you need to have on race day and people still want to quit if they have to go to it.

Personally, I think that it is the “change” that some are not willing to except and not so much what we are changing to. I also think we should be more excited about the “possibility” of making our hobby less expensive for everyone rather than dwelling on the “change” aspect. At a minimum, this is the first time that we are looking at something that “might be” less expensive rather than the same old battery and motor money pit.

But most of all I can see a new racers looking at a smaller dollar sign when he gets interested in doing what we do. With the motors we are testing now, the Brushless/LiPo thing can cover everything from Spec to Open Modified and IF they prove to be even HALF as good as they are appearing to be, it will be a cost effective change for everyone.

I'll address this to HOCK and anyone else 'On the Fence' about the LIPO deal...

I don't know where you race or how strong your local racing scene is...but just because LIPO (and Brushless for that matter) are coming...does NOT mean you have to change to continue supporting racing, especially on a local level...

One of the biggest things we seem to be facing right now is...SOME WANT TO CHANGE RIGHT NOW...and NOW is not the right time.

We are avidly still working on, and looking for 'perfect' motor combos that will work w/ the LIPO.

Now...that should not stop you (if you want) to run Brushless from buying the current or even USED B/L motor to fit the class that most closely runs a speed you want to race at.

I personally have not only been testing the 17.5 motors, but I have on my own, bought 3 of the 3200 lipos, 4 4300's, and one 13.5 motor to do some testing with (Also bought a 5.5, but it's never been wired into the car yet...nor has my LRP/Reedy Neo1)

Of the 4 4300's, only ONE is sintered, two are the OLD STYLE, one with small bearing, one with large bearing and upgrade(not sintered) rotor...and the other Newer style has the big bearing and upgraded rotor w/ the good solder tabs. (So, I've basically got one of EACH.)

In my 'limited' "SPORTSMAN CLASS" type experience with these...they all run pretty equal in speed, now a Frankie, Humpty, Andy Mac, etc. I'm sure would know the difference...

I did see today w/ the Sintered vs the Non Sintered in 95-100 degree weather the sintered motor came off at about 135 - 137 after a 5 minute run..where the NON Sintered came off after one run of 182 degrees. Part of this heat issue was a pretty big push I had..and my car (and driver) was not at but maybe 75-80 % at the best.

(Leaders were running 4.0's, maybe a 3.9 every once in a while...2 or 3 I think on his TQ run) My best were pretty consistant 4.3's and 4.4's...but Me wasn't very consistant for more than 6 or 7 laps at a time...all and all though, it was a very fun weekend of racing 2 different tracks in Beautiful Bakersfield CA~

Unless I am mistaken.... Hock is a part of "Team One" and one of the guys running Victory Hobbies in Green Bay WI.
Maybe the shock of no motor work with B/L is still too fresh in his mind... and now you want to take away battery maintenance also :eek: :lol:

McLin,

Please remove the photo of Rudy Valentino from your front page. I just want to puke when I see his ugly mug.....lol