After years of hearing people say '' Oh, brakes - thats easy'' and nothing ever getting made I have decided to throw this out onto a forum and see ir anyone wants to get paid to make my club something.

What we have at the moment is:

18V, 1200mA power with Tomy plugs attached
Controller (but electronic and resistor) fitted with 3 pin 2 amp plugs and matching sockets fitted to the track

What we want:

A portable piece of track that can be plumbed into a layout and adds the legendary 'third wire'.

Boxes or some other device that can be plugged in between the controllers and the track that give perhaps 5 levels of braking, on of the five being 'off'

The controllers themselves stay the same. Naturally, electronic controllers will be able to 'find' settings between the five on offer...

Can this be done?


Deane

No, Not without changing your controllers.
Your controllers need to have the braking option built in or added.
If you have braking built in to your controllers, you don't need a piece of track, you simply add in the third wire option to your driver's stations. If you want to disconnect, take off the wire at the source.

Most of our controllers have three wires, the unused brake wire goes to the top pin on these:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/Products/size_3/TLPT2.JPG

These are the sockets we use:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/Products/size_3/GU3070.JPG

I imagine there are only to two wires running from these currently, so if we add a third to the top hole, where does it go to?

The brake wire is a simple wire hook-up to the negative side of your power supply,and add a 100ohm pot inline with it for adjustable brakes.

The trouble is I might be good at admin and what not but the electrics lose me all too easily!

I have never had a Tomy terminal piece apart nor the plugs. So what goes to what is hard for me to picture. I do know that the two wires from the controller that are NOT the brake wire go to the two smaller prongs on the 2 amp plug as above.

I guess then that there are two wires running from the socket and they will have a Tomy plug attached which then goes into the standard 15'' terminal track. Which wire goes to which rail I have no idea, and where the third wire should go I also have no idea.

Would this work? If I leave the Tomy plug in the terminal and cut and seperate the wires with one of these:

http://www.lonco-asia.com/library/upload/Image/Electrical/Industrial_material/TerminalBlock1.JPG

Then two of the wires from the controller would go in one side and the remaining wire in the other?

If that works were do the adjuster go?

I told you I was rubbish at this!!!!


Deane

Here's a simple brake wire circuit Deane:

http://www.hoslotcarracing.com/image/Wiring.gif

The third brake wire on a controller would go to the F Stop pad on the wiper. Add a rheostat (trim pot) between the brake wire on the controller and the track for fine tuning the brake.

Using the image above, you could wire your 3 prong socket where the 3 colored wires end. Then the same for your plug coming from your (non-stock)controller.

I'm sure that is a good drawing. Unfortunatly, I cant reconcile it with the 3D world, especially when we are talking about a terminal track that treats power and control seperately and everything is encased in plastic.

Excuse the very poor spelling by the way!

Lets imagine that I plug a normal Tomy controller into the controller 'port' on a normal Tomy AFX terminal track and then cut the wires just below the controller. I can then seperate the wires, call them A & B. If we trace the three wires from my after market controller throught the round pin socket one of them would be the brake wire, right? Lets call them 1,2 & 3 with 3 being the brake.

Now Imagine that we have a normal Tomy power plug going into the same terminal track, but into the power 'port' of course. Again cut the plug so there are two wires. Finally take a Tomy transformer and cut the plug off leaving two wires.

Which wires go to which?

Sorry for the kindergarten approach, but with this kind of thing it is about my level - and thats on a good day!!


Deane

O.K.
Your problem is not with the track, it's with the controllers. Stock tomy controllers only have two wires. There is no way a brake cuircut would work because there is no place for the contoller to conplete the braking cuicut.
The track thing is doable, even with your settup. you would need to invest in some upgraded controllers though.

Tim Leppert

It's been awhile since i looked at a stock Tomy wallwart,but one of the wires coming out of the power pack should have a stripe or a raised edge on it,if i remember right the marked wire should be your hot feed (power),and the unmarked wire should be your negative or ground side, (you'll want to check this with a small multi-meter).
Splice into the negative wire,this will be your brake wire or third wire on your plug-in,add a 100 ohm pot or as Tim pointed out a rheostat (old guys,just kidding Tim,lol) somewhere near your drivers stations,as you'll want to be able to adjust the pot/rheostat while racing.The average pot has 3 tabs coming out of it,you need the center tab and either side tab,just solder your third/brake wire to these tabs,in "series",which means the pot interrupts the circuit,and then solder the free end to your plug-ins third prong
Like Tim says,you'll need at least Parma Econo controllers,you can add a brake circuit to a stock Tyco or Tomy controller,but it's a pile of time consuming work,to get them to function properly

O.K.
Your problem is not with the track, it's with the controllers. Stock tomy controllers only have two wires. There is no way a brake cuircut would work because there is no place for the contoller to conplete the braking cuicut.
The track thing is doable, even with your settup. you would need to invest in some upgraded controllers though.

Tim Leppert

Dean, Tim's on the money here. When you release the trigger in a two wire you are off power and you coast to a stop. Two wire resistors have two contacts on the resistor, and three wire resistors have three!

In a three wire controller there is a contact provided for the third wire on the resistor stop/off position. It is behind your first "slow run" or "power barely on" contact. This essentially shorts/crosses your trackwires and dynamic braking is in effect. So rather than coasting off inertia, the electrical energy generated by coasting a permanent magnet DC motor is fed back to itself quickly dampening any coast/inertia. Hence the term brakes. The inline potentiometer merely regulates the amount of feed back so you dont skid to a stop like a four wheel disc brake foot stomp in a 1:1 car.

I have converted an old two wire AFX Russkit to three wire. I just used an old t-jet pick up shoe with a flattened hanger window. The upper rear handle securing screw goes through the shoe hanger window and the shoe hook's rounded side becomes the contact. A small notch is cut in the internal plastic screw guide as a seat and alignment slot for the modified pickup. Solder a third wire to the pick up and you got brakes.

It should be noted that some fiddling is required so that when the wiper rides up onto the "off" stop it contacts the pickup shoe and completes the brake circuit.

This was something I threw together one winters eve out of both curiosity and boredom. Just goofing off I rekon! It worked reliably for what it was. Regardless of how you do it the potentiometer is a must as all cars are a skoshe different and require some feathering of the dynamic brake effect.

Even after half a rookie season I havent gotten the hang of brakes.... rarely run with them...

The AMSRA standard is a 3 wire (120v type) outlet with the ground being the brake....the borrowed controller I used this past season had a switch to easily toggle the brakes on or off...

I will wire my track for brakes but I doubt if I will use them...although I havent played with braking and pancake motors yet...hmmmm

I do know my next "racing " purchase is an adjustable controller... :thumbsup:

Yeah Crimnick I agree that brakes arent for all cars.

Like you I'm a rookie, after 35yrs it's all new to me, more or less.

Seems like brakes on magnet cars are kinda of redundent and as such I prefer not to use them. Modern superstocks stick and handle too good to even bother. The magnetic downforce provides the same effect as dynamic braking does on a non mag car. It's apples and apples in my book.

I gotta admit that I like to use brakes on my looser/freewheeling T-jets and nonmag AFX cars on my home track. It's a tight radius 11x7 dogleg and braking seems to provide some benefits with the old school cars. I run with or without brakes, it's only the transition from one to the other that gives me fits, as it takes a bit to get re-acclimated. I think you'll like brakes on your leggier pancake cars.

O.K.
Your problem is not with the track, it's with the controllers. Stock tomy controllers only have two wires. There is no way a brake cuircut would work because there is no place for the contoller to conplete the braking cuicut.
The track thing is doable, even with your settup. you would need to invest in some upgraded controllers though.

Tim Leppert

As above, we have the controllers. I used the term after-market for them. We mostly have Parmas with the old Difalco and Third eye. But the Tomy plug that you get on the stock controllers would still be needed if still using the stock 15'' terminal track piece, and that has two wires...

Sad to say the more I read the more confused I get. I just need to get something plug-n-play made and pay for it.

Good thing ya don't race with me Bill,i run nothing but R/O cars,and i run a pile of brakes,even my SS cars use alot of brakes when i dig them out,so i'm gonna blow by u in the corners.
Make your brake circuit adjustable with a 100ohm pot,so you have the ablility to dial down the brakes till your used to them,they take quite alot to learn to drive with them.
Deane you'll figure it out,it ain't rocket science.
Rick

No doubt you will Rick, As a rookie I'm "slowly" working my way through things. I dont get a lot of track time so when I do I'm just concentrating on being smooth and steady. I'm just too jerky with the brakes and dont always have them dialed correctly.

As my driving skill improves I'll probably start driving a little harder into the corners with some brakes. For now I'm winding my way through trying to stay in the groove, acclimate myself and create as little carnage on the track as I can.

After all it has been 35 years, so gramps aint quite up to the speed of light yet. LOL

Bill

Montoya1 , I hope this doesn't come off wrong. But it sound like you want to plug your 3 wire controller into a 2 wire Tomy terminal. If you can't figure out ScottV's diagram how do you plan on wiring it on your track if someone builds it for you? If you use the Tomy terminal track then you'll have to go inside and wire it from there and figure out where to hook up the brake wire from controller. raunchy

I guess I thought that somebody could doctor a terminal so it is brakes ready.

Jesus,you can build a complete aluminium chassis,but you can't figure this out Deane,might be the wrong hobby for you then.
I don't know how much simpler we can explain it to you.
Crap,Scotts drawing is about as simple as it gets,and you can't figure it out,i'm pretty sure he got the drawing off the back of a Parma controller box,so telling you get one of their boxes and following the wiring diagram won't do you any good.
Find yourself a local community college and take some nighttime wiring courses,even England should have somewhere you can learn basic wiring skills

Deane--

I e-mailed you a diagram that I think will work for you. The only problem as I see it is with the adjustable brakes part. Using the standard terminal track, I see no way to have seperate adjustable pots for each lane. Let me know if the diagram helps.

Okay,i got a little insight into this problem tonight,and i might owe you an apology Deane.
I was trying to explain wiring brakes to a guy on the phone tonight,and i ran into this problem of him not understanding the wiring.
He kept telling me it didn't make sense,to me he wasn't making sense,lol,but i finally figured some of the problem out,when he asked me which rail the wire goes to,"the brake wire doesn't have to go to a rail",it goes back to the negative side of your power supply and that's it,the rest of the brake circuit works through the controller.
Maybe that'll help you guys out,if you realize the brake circuit doesn't physically have hook up to a rail.
Look at Scotts diagram closely,now move where the Red wire "T's",move the "T" to the negative post of the power supply (move to the left where the negative or minus sign is in the drawing),easier than splicing into the negative rail wire.I guess the diagram could be a touch misleading,as it looks like the brake wire has to go to a rail and your power supply,that's not the case,you've already got the red wire in place if your track is working,as you need a negative side to your HO track for the cars to run,so instead of trying to splice into it,just add another wire that parallels your negative rails wire,and joins it at the negative post of your power supply.
Adjustability is no problem even with terminal tracks,as each drivers station gets it own wire to the negative side of the power supply or wall wart,you'll just need a terminal track for each drivers station,you'll have to cut the joiner bar that joins the 2 negative rails together,thereby isolating each lane from the other lane.
So find the negative side of your power supply and start running a wire to each individual driver's station,and add a 100 ohm pot in series with each wire.
When your done running this wire to your third controller wire hook-up,all you do is clip your controllers brake onto it,and you've now wired your track for adjustable brakes

Actually my drawing is hotlinked from "Mr. HO's" awesome wesbite, Gregory Braun. ;)

Deane if I had the time I would build something for you. But like others have mentioned, using the stock Tomy power terminal is your Achilles Heel to a clever controller hook up you've come up with. If I get some free time I will try and draw something to post for an idea you could do. You really just need to tap that 3rd wire into the ground connection to your Tomy track piece. Only thing I'm not sure of is if you have to split the common ground between the lanes on the bottom. May not be a factor. :-/

I get where Hornet is coming from, but not everyone has an understanding of electrical design despite having talents and skills elsewhere in their hobby. I've always been a guy that can get someones electrical problems fixed, whether it be automotive or home and can build engines with one arm behind my back but I can't do bodywork if my life depended on it. Like Clint Eastwood said; "A smart man always knows his limitations." :p

Slott,

I think I'm getting close to understanding what to do thanks to Steve Wronkowicz's email. Basically the red wire from the Parma controller goes to the positive power wire? (but hornet is saying negaitive?) The thing now is to make the whole thing neatly packaged and portable so I'm looking to fit mono plugs and sockets to the wires.

Thanks for your help on this guys.

1 From the power supply's positive terminal you run a white wire to the drivers station's white terminal.

2 From the driver's station black terminal you run a black wire to the track 's left rail.

3 From the right rail you run a red wire to the power supply's negative terminal.

4 From the driver's station red terminal you run a red wire to the power supply's negative terminal.


Raunchy

I think I'd better just give up. That description does not sound the same as hornets and his does not tally with what somebody emailed me:

The black and white Parma wires go through the drivers station to the Tomy controller plug.

The red parma wire goes to the positive rail as does the + wire from the power supply, the other power wire to the other rail.

Well what they sent to you may have some typo errors. I may not be an electrical engineer but I was an electrican in the Navy and this is how I wired 3 track layouts. Good luck with whatever you decide. Raunchy

I have really tried to get my head around this but I have failed.

Please nobody else waste time on me, I feel guilty enough as it is.

.................

(Disclaimer... This will only work if you are NOT using regular Tomy terminal tracks... Tomy terminal tracks share one of the feed points and will mess this whole thing up...)

This is what you currently have, a track wired with out brakes:
By the way... DO NOT THINK OF THE RED WIRE AS POSITIVE!!!
In this system it is not positive.... It is just a wire colored red.
Maybe that is part of what is confusing you.
(Sure looks "wrong" when you look at it...)

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/Wiring_no_brakes.gif

To add a brake circuit simply tap into the red wire at some convenient point.
Maybe add a small terminal block to do this.
Then your system will look like this:

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/Wiring.gif

And you will have brakes.
Take your time. Wire one lane at a time. No problem.
Some additional prep to make thing easier?
Color code your plugs. Like this...
http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/plug_female.jpg

What do you think?
Scott

I;m not making the leap as to why using the Tomy plugs are so bad. I know how to isolate a terminal piece so only one lane gets power, and we already use four of them and four transformers per four lane layout.

If I fit mono jacks to the ends of all 9 wires (3 controller, 2 power, 2 Tomy control plug, 2 Tomy power plug) can somebody make the extra wire (s) with a 100 ohm pot in and tell me where to fit it?

The Mono idea means everything tears down quickly, important as the system will be in use at multiple venues, and it is easy to experiment with. Anywhere that two wires have to go into one, so to speak, I would use one of these:




http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/Full/yw37s.jpg

This shows you an example of what I mean, can anyone connect it up?:

http://www.bglawns.com/brakes%20medium.jpg

Raunchy's explanation is identical to mine Deane.
Cut the negative joiner bar of your terminal tracks so that each lane is isolated.
Nothing has to go to the terminal tracks,they just need the to be isolated from each other.
Scott,i'm like you a "jack of all trades",being forced into learning bodywork these days,as i somehow got elected master painter at work,should never have picked up that paint gun :p

If you use the terminal track you going to have to go inside and still hook up a terminal / plug for your brakes. It is much simpler to get rid of the terminal and build and solder a driver 's station and taps.
I had very little background to none in soldering. But I practice with a lot of 9in curves and now I'm pretty good at it.I never go back to factory terminal tracks.
Raunchy

Not if it's already a working track.
If it's already a working track,you only need to modify the joiner bar that joins the 2 negative rails together,on one terminal track you'll have to cut the bar,and on the other terminal track use a soldering iron to melt Tomy's connection to the rail.
Word to the wise boys,i race on a few tracks without brakes,i carry a piece of wire with me that has a 100 Ohm pot installed inline in this wire,and all i do is hook it to the negative side of the power supply at these tracks and i got brakes,i sure as hell ain't down there soldering wires on to rails at another guys track so that i can have brakes.
Go back and look at Noddaz's 2 drawings,one without brakes and one with brakes,take that short little jumper wire that hooks to the red wire and move it to your power supply,voila brakes.
BTW:where's this 4th wire from your controller if the brake circuit has to go to a rail,cause it's gonna need one extra wire coming outta the controller if it's gotta hook to the negative side of the power supply and a rail,or do you guys plan on "T"ing off the one red wire coming out of the controller.
Deane nothing has to go to your terminal tracks,they just need the negative joiner bar dis-connected from one rail,so that you don't apply brakes to the other lane when you let off your controller.
For an experiment use only one lane and one car,and a resistor controller,don't modify anything yet,now run a wire from the red wire of your controller to the negative side of your power supply,put the car on the track,hold the rear tires off the track,floor it and quickly let off the throttle,pay attention to how fast the wheels stop.now do this without the wire hooked up to the negative side of your power supply,and pay attention to the differance between how fast the motor quits turning without this wire hooked to the negative side of the power supply.
Make sure the white wire of your controller goes to the positive side of your power supply,that gives you positive polarity,if the white wire from your controller goes to the negative post of your power supply,that's negative polarity,most electronic controllers prefer positive polarity.
If it's still giving you trouble,send me your terminal tracks and some 100 ohm 12Watt (or higher) potentionmeter's,and a roll of 14G red wire.
I'll cut the joiner bar for you,and install the pots in the wire,but you'll still have to run the made-up wire from your controller post hook-up to your power supply,i ain't in england so it's gonna be tough for me to do that for you

I thought that I had posted something about this but I cannot find it...
Strange...
Scott

Guys,

I have been talking to our guys and sending one of them all the stuff I have accumalated. We should have brakes sometime this year, I will spread the word when we do. Thanks to everyone who took time to respond, you guys really are class.

This will not work with regular Tomy terminal tracks...

You have to use modified terminal tracks or make your own.
Second note: Do not think of the red wire as a "positive" wire.
It is not a positive wire, it is just a wire colored red.......
Maybe some of the confusion comes from that.

Your track is wired like this:

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/Wiring_no_brakes.gif

WHat you need to do to add brakes is tap into the wire that goes from the right hand rail to the negative side of the power supply. In the picture it is the wire colored red. So you end up with a set up like this:

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/Wiring.gif


Barrier strips work nice to allow you to add in a wire at the required point.... The ones I used looked like this:
http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2265722w345.jpg

There are also jumpers available to allow you to hook up multiple connections with one feed wire.

I hope that this helps...
Scott