Scot Petitclerc (2006 SWTour Modified Champion and current record holder at the Encino Velodrome) came up to run with us at our local club race Saturday to help me do some testing w/ the NOVAK (Lipo/Stock Replacement) test motor.

After Saturadys test...we found a legitimate replacement motor...for 4300/4 cell and/or 19t 4cell.

We put Scot in our stock class and let him play through the 4 qualifiers and he just kept getting faster and faster.

In the mains we moved him into our mixed 19t/4300 4cell class. Scot was running the UNMARKED TEST MOTOR w/ his Peak / Orion LIPO and YES, it WAS Faster than the 4 cell 4300...AND the 4 cell 19t (ARCOR Legal Mt. Fuji based motor) ALL 3 were SOOO close on Top Speed and the mains DID yield the quickest lap times

NOVAK TEST MOTOR - Fastest Lap 6.235 (Scot Petitclerc)
4cell 19t - Fastest Lap 6.253 (Jamison Bartlett)
4cell - 4300 - Fastest Lap 6.305 (John Miles)

Scots car just kept getting faster and faster every lap, and his quickest lap was turned on lap 44 of 46 laps. Where both the 4 cell cars turned their fastest laps in the first 15 laps.

Good stock lap times were in the 6.56 - 6.71 range today. Track is about 300 ft. (Give or take...I didn't run the wheel on it today) and a little loose.

(Post note: Scot was on a good 47 lap pace, but collected a back marker 2 laps from the end causing him to drop from 6.2 on the 44th lap to 8.21 and 7.16 on the last 2 laps.)

Joe Myers
South-West Tour "R/C Oval Series"
Official 'TOUR' Sponsors
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Jake's Performance Hobbies (http://www.jphracing.com)
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McAllister Racing Bodies (http://www.mcallisterracing.com)
STICK E.T. Tire Sauces (http://www.arcor-rc.com/arcor2003/sticket.htm)
T.M. Racing Tires (http://www.tm-rc-racingcomponents.com/index.htm)

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opps!

NOVAK TEST MOTOR - Fastest Lap 6.235 (Scot Petitclerc)
4cell 19t - Fastest Lap 6.253 (Jamison Bartlett)
4cell - 4300 - Fastest Lap 6.305 (John Miles)

Joe 19t ran a faster lap than 4300? 4300 car must not have been even close to being good setup wise. we have been running 56 4:00 week in and out. 19t Jeff ran a 56 4:03 once @ the Pancar Shootout last year when bite was way up.

I think the 10.5/lypo is a good mod class, 13.5/lypo would be a good 19t/4300 replacement bit faster but very easy to drive. Now all we need is a 20.5+ to replace stock and we all can just work on our cars and not motor/batteries... JMO

Raymond,

The guy running the 4300 was running the Pro3, but had a little push entering the corner. He had the rip over the 19t on the straights, but the 19t was dialed just a bit better in the corner.

NOTE: These guys are the AVERAGE JOE type racers who are the top level in their local game, Scot did bring in a little more experience which is why I wanted HIM testing this motor.

Charlie from NOVAK is going to get me a couple other winds to test ASAP, and I'm hoping to bring them to PHOENIX for the PCSO..and maybe you will get a chance to do some testing too.. : )

...another note: The track we ran this on is a TEMP layout with very square corners (INDIANAPOLIS STYLE) with very brutal infield walls and 15-17 ft wide lanes.

A lot of times we'll see a difference of .3 per lap if you are willing to just tick the infield walls coming off the corner...but 1/2 to low...and you STOP in the wall. All three of these guys put on a great race...but were a little more conservative than I normally run...(Which is why my body has the CRAP knocked out of it...LOL)

Joe, that's cool I really think a 20.5 or maybe 21.5 would be ok for stock replacement. Motor tested was a 17.5 right? We had a guy Joe Wilson that ran a 18.5 and was running 4.4 to 4.5's 4-cell 4300 we run 4.1-4.3's so I would think a 17.5 would be very close.

Raymond,

The motor we had was a 17.5 and I suggested to NOVAK we try a 21.5

It sounds like they may send a couple different combos to try.

I also think a 21.5 will be a KILLER on-road touring ENTRY level motor and hope we get to do some testing there too.

SW, thanks for your efforts and sharing the info, I think we are about to have some major changes in RC racing.

Your efforts lead the pack, good stuff.

I wonder what will happen with new folks entering the sport when we don't need dyno and all the motor magic or the battery mojo. Just learn to drive and setup.

Imagine a pit table with no row of batteries, no T30, no dyno, no lathe.

Will we see 5 post setup chassis rigs? who knows!

Again thanks for your efforts, the future looks promising!

98Ron,

Funny you talk about the PIT TABLE.

Scot, our driver doing the test this week had a CHARGER on the table..and a pit towel I believe. It was one of the emptiest pit tables I've EVER seen.

Now if we could get it going up north!!

Kevin,

Once we find the combo we're looking for, I'll be sending Ruben, Jake and anyone else I can think of some of the results, benefits and reasons behind the plans.

I think nearly everyone running electric this year can agree the batteries have not been a fun issue...where does it end?

Will this LIPO deal fix it? NOT as long as we have people who will do anything they can to ruin it...but, HOPEFULLY it's a move in the right direction to help...we know that once these things become THE product of choice..people will try to manipulate these batteries to find an advantage, they'll do the same with the motors...that IS what racers and mfg's do. Hopefully we can overcome that though.

If we can some how figure how to keep matchers and motor guy's out of this, it will be a good deal for everybody.

The lipo thing is fine and dandy for laid back racing, but before I'll get excited or even interested in it as a cure all for battteries I'd like to see the discharge curves for 10 or preferable a 100 randonly selected packs. I hear these batteries are "pretty much" or "virtually" the same. What constitues pretty much the same? If I didn't know better I'd say a 1.25V NiMH pack is pretty much the same as a 1.21V NiMH pack. Well we all know those two packs are not pretty much the same on the track. Is there any hard data anywhere showing how consistent these lipo packs are?

I had a great time testing the motor for Joe. I had my ice charger to top off the packs in-between rounds and a few tools to make some adjustments to the car on the table and that was it!

Running the lipo/bl combo was everything I thought it would be. Fast/Easy/Repeatable performance with no motor or battery pre or post race work. I had lots of time to talk and hang out with the other racers. At the end of the day (I already had everything packed up before the main. No need to repeak or discharge at the end), I just unplugged the lipo and turned off the radio and was done. Simply awesome!

pmsimkins,

I agree I'd like more discharge info..because as a realist, I know GUYS will still buy 10-15 packs looking for an advantage...it's what racers and/or mfg's do.

If we had the budget...my suggestion would be HAND OUT RACE Packs on race day....but we all know that would never work either.

I do believe this can be a good thing, I also believe given the chance....racers themselves will try to ruin it.

Joe: Our testing with the NOVAK test motor was no where near yours? As a matter of fact, our tests showed that the test motor with the 3200 Lipo’s was as close to Stock as we’d want to go. We tried 5 different rollouts starting with a 1.64 to a 3.0

1.64: Average lap times were in the 4.9’s motor temp was 80 degrees

1.90: Average lap times 4.8’s, motor temp was in the mid 80’s

2.12: Average lap times 4.6’s. motor temp was in the mid 90’s

2.80: Average lap times 4.4’s, motor temp was in the 120’s

3.0: Average lap times 4.2’s, we weren’t watching the time close enough and ran 5 minutes, so the motor came off at 159 degrees. Had we run the 4 minutes it should have been in the 130 degree range. Fast single lap was 4.1

For cross reference against lap times of brushed Stock and 4200 niMh, laps times for the Stock class were in the 4.4’s with a weekend 4.1 “hot lap”. Brushed UB19T and 4200 niMh, laps times were in the 3.8’s


4300 Brushless with 4C Trinity 1600 Spec packs had lap times averaging in the 4.3’s

4300 PRO Stock with 4200 niMh had laps times in the 3.8 ranges.



These tests were run on a 190’ carpet track, with some banking. Maybe 12 degrees. Not certain about the banking?? I would also like to note that most of the runs were single car runs, so the testers had no traffic to contend with. Times should average out slower with traffic.



The guys that tested the motor liked it just the way it was. They said, don’t change anything, the 17.5/3200 lipo combo was perfect for what we are trying to achieve with the new COF class.

pmsimkins,

I agree I'd like more discharge info..because as a realist, I know GUYS will still buy 10-15 packs looking for an advantage...it's what racers and/or mfg's do.

If we had the budget...my suggestion would be HAND OUT RACE Packs on race day....but we all know that would never work either.

I do believe this can be a good thing, I also believe given the chance....racers themselves will try to ruin it.

I agree we as a group have a tendency to ruin things for ourselves. I think the problem would not so much be an actual advantage in buying 10 packs, but if guys perceive there to be an advantge it can kill things in a heartbeat.

The other killer would be if there was a tweak or something to the manufacturing process and suddenly all the new packs would be better or worse then what was already out. Not that we don't already have the problem with NiMH!

Anyway good luck with all the testing. Even if LiPOs never catch on it will still be good to have a motor slower than the 13.5. They are pretty stout for a beginner to get started with, even regular 4 cell. If you do ever run across discharge data for a bunch of packs please pass it along.

[color=black][font=Verdana]The guys that tested the motor liked it just the way it was. They said, don’t change anything, the 17.5/3200 lipo combo was perfect for what we are trying to achieve with the new COF class.

I missed something somewhere. I thought the purpose of the lipo/Novak BL Spec motor was to find a cheap and reliable entry class setup that was comparable to stock 4 cell speeds. The motor I ran with the lipo was a lot of fun, but it was really stout with 7.4 volts. When I ran 19T with this group on another track (Same layout) that was very similar to the one in Nipomo, I ran 49 laps. The difference being that track was very hooked up and fast. The track in Nipomo was very dusty and loose. It was extremely hard to get hooked up. In fact my car skated around most of the day. I would have still turned a 47 lap run on the loose track. Clean and a lot of traction, I would have no doubt been able to turn 49/50 and get the lap times into the 5's.

For a lipo/BL class, this combo would work fine. But for entry level racers, I think it has a bit too much rip and would make setups a lot harder to get dialed in. My $.02

JB,

I hope you WILL test the new motor NOVAK is planning to supply. I don't know how things will differ on the short carpet to a good size asphalt track, but I hope to get what ever new deal they come up with (I've suggested the 21.5) and get some test data at the PHOENIX track the end of the month. Ray McCoy and a couple Stock drivers would like to give it a shot.

As far as testing with only one car on the track, we choose not to do that...because we know competition breeds competition and you'll push harder than in a single car run. That's why we stuck Scott in our STOCK class (since that is where we want to class to equal) When it was too fast there, it was decided to see just how fast it would run in the 19t class.

If we error with this motor, I'm hoping we error to the SLOW side. We'll have plenty of FASTER motors, but a slower motor should be good for NOVICE racers, SPEC racers and us OLD racers...(Plus, I feel if this motor things works out...it will also make an AWESOME NOVICE/ROOKIE motor for TOURING which has been crying about slowing those cars down for quite some time.)

Joe Myers
South-West Tour "R/C Oval Series"
Official 'TOUR' Sponsors
FINISHLINE R/C Products (http://www.finishlinerc.com)
Jake's Performance Hobbies (http://www.jphracing.com)
Maverick Oval Chassis (http://www.swiftracingproducts.com)
McAllister Racing Bodies (http://www.mcallisterracing.com)
STICK E.T. Tire Sauces (http://www.arcor-rc.com/arcor2003/sticket.htm)
T.M. Racing Tires (http://www.tm-rc-racingcomponents.com/index.htm)
WWW.SOUTHWESTTOUR.COM (http://www.southwesttour.com)

Joe: Our testing with the NOVAK test motor was no where near yours? As a matter of fact, our tests showed that the test motor with the 3200 Lipo’s was as close to Stock as we’d want to go. We tried 5 different rollouts starting with a 1.64 to a 3.0

1.64: Average lap times were in the 4.9’s motor temp was 80 degrees

1.90: Average lap times 4.8’s, motor temp was in the mid 80’s

2.12: Average lap times 4.6’s. motor temp was in the mid 90’s

2.80: Average lap times 4.4’s, motor temp was in the 120’s

3.0: Average lap times 4.2’s, we weren’t watching the time close enough and ran 5 minutes, so the motor came off at 159 degrees. Had we run the 4 minutes it should have been in the 130 degree range. Fast single lap was 4.1

For cross reference against lap times of brushed Stock and 4200 niMh, laps times for the Stock class were in the 4.4’s with a weekend 4.1 “hot lap”. Brushed UB19T and 4200 niMh, laps times were in the 3.8’s


4300 Brushless with 4C Trinity 1600 Spec packs had lap times averaging in the 4.3’s

4300 PRO Stock with 4200 niMh had laps times in the 3.8 ranges.



These tests were run on a 190’ carpet track, with some banking. Maybe 12 degrees. Not certain about the banking?? I would also like to note that most of the runs were single car runs, so the testers had no traffic to contend with. Times should average out slower with traffic.


The guys that tested the motor liked it just the way it was. They said, don’t change anything, the 17.5/3200 lipo combo was perfect for what we are trying to achieve with the new COF class.


2.80: Average lap times 4.4’s, motor temp was in the 120’s

3.0: Average lap times 4.2’s

If you are testing the motor for speed comparison, you have not put enough gear on it yet! So far in your results the more gear you put on it the faster you have gone. Need to do more testing by continuing to go up in rollout.20 at a time till you don't run any faster. You are going to find that will be in the 3.6 to 3.9 range on rollout and about 160 degree's.

...I agree, We started HUGE in the gear ratio (Bigger than VELODROME numbers) and made very little adjustment, because we seemed to hit a pretty sweet spot and outran EVERYTHING on the track as it was...I believe it still had more.

I don't have time this morning for all the details but I took the brushless/lipo and COT car up to T Road last night for some testing...............very interesting results!

I will post a portion of the article up when I get home tonight.

A little long for a post but wait until you read the real article on my site soon LOL.

I took the mystery motor/Lipo battery and a COT body to Thunder Road last night to see how it would perform. (Thanks to Ernie for allowing Larry and me to have the track for the night.) More testing is in order of course but the first round went well. I am using the COT body for all the testing now because that is what will be used in the class and after last night I would suggest that everyone else that test and works with the class do the same. Regular bodies will give you false information. So let’s talk about that first.

As I wrote to J.B. in an email; if I think I am right about something, I will “discuss” it with you until the cows come home but at the same time, if I am wrong, I hope that I am big enough to admit it. Well, this time I may have been….. “mistaken”.

I have made several comments about the McAllister’s COT body on here and none of them have been very favorable so I took the body to Thunder Road with some apprehension. It does require some different tuning to make it turn but the bottom line is; with the Stock type speeds we are talking about now, it will be just fine.

I am finishing up part one of the testing article and will put it up soon but the “readers digest” version is that I used the wing that comes with the body rather than use an aftermarket one. I did cut the rear of the body out though. I mounted it a little different to make it stronger but I will go into that in the article. Sometimes a picture is worth more than my fingers can type.

I tried one different test with the Lipo battery too. I charged it at around 10:30 on Tuesday night and let it sit until I raced it at around 7:00 on “Wednesday” night! In all of the battery testing I have done, the battery comes off the charge at 8.37 volts EVERY time. I checked this one before I put the car on the track after setting last night and it was still at 8.35 volts………not too shabby after sitting for over 20 hours! Try that with a NMH.

OK on to the motor. I only had time for three runs and I started too low in gear but the last run the lap times started at 4.3’s (170 something feet flat track) and ended at 4.4’s so I think I was close. I am not a real believer in living “by the temp gun”, lap times tell you what you need know. Motor temperature is just one of the things you look at. A lot more about all of this will follow in the article that is going up soon.

NOW here’s is my question to all of you; how fast do you want it to go? The last run I made was only about 2 seconds of the Thunder Road track record of 55 laps, 4:0 something. (With only three tries) With another “real” day of testing, 56 laps will be a snap which will “spank” the old record bad. My point is sort of two fold: One; do you think that making this class a little faster than Stock may be what it takes to attract racers to it?

Or, Two; will making it this fast scare people off? It is certainly not as fast as 19 turn and way slower than Lipo and the 4300 but with work, it will be a little faster than Stock is today.

One extra comment: Thanks to Orion (Rick Howart in particular) and also to Novak for all of their support in our testing.

Good job McLin.

or and it's Hohwart lol

I'm hoping we get to see a NEW mystery motor before out trip to the high banks of METRO SPEEDWAY next weekend...although we are not testing it with the COT body at this time and we ARE trying to run it in with an existing class to see where it actually compares ON TRACK with those guys.

That's great Joe but I REALLY would suggest that you add the body. Running it with the regular cars will not tell you what you may think.

I hope I can keep this motor for one more track test but it will have to be next Wed evening, they race the right turn track this Saturday. If not, what I learned last night was worth the trip.

Lin,

We are not looking at creating the COF class as JB is. I am hoping to be a bit more aggressive w/ the LiPO thing and offer 2 or 3 LiPO based classes in '08.

I'm currently not interested in doing the COT only class, w/o dropping an existing class.

I would like to do some testing with it though, but it would be difficult to get these on the tracks we're running this year (75% velodromes) w/o having enough to do a full test class. (which won't happen until we have enough motors to do a full class of them)

Joe ,
I understand everything your doing for the area and the tour but I deam it unfar to make everyone run the Novak equipment or sphere, but nothing else is unfar, I for one do not agree with this decision and or the BRL's little series. I believe that everone knows that there are other manufactures coming out with theirs as well, I here others stateing why make this a motor or speed controller of the week or month when Novak themselves is making diffrent and better motors or sensored and sensorless. How can that be fair . But I guess if your given the equipment to test and use I guess that's fine as well. If the tour and area tracks go to this style of rules racers will quit racing and that is a fact stated by severial drivers not only myself. My opinion and fellings .

well i guess we will miss you, have a good time in your future hobbies!
but, facts are facts novak and novak only has gone out of the way and spend millions of dollars to help us in the hobby and the brl, and no by said life was fair so get over it and move on! when you get your facts straight and you have a real arguement come back and talk to us, until then lets leave the flaming to the campers!!!!!!!!!

nevermind...

Here's a little different type of B/L test info...

Last weekend at the PCSO (Pan Car Shoot Out) in Phoenix AZ we ran 3 classes with brushless motors.

4 cell 4300
Open Mod 4 cell (Open to both Brushed and Brushless)
4300 Lipo

I'm not sure what motors the 4 cell mod guys were running but I will post that info as soon as I have it...but here are the class records

4-cell 4300(old 57 4:02) New 58 4:02.98 Jeff Helms
4-cell mod(old 63 4:00 Jeff Helms)New 64 4:01.89 Ken Collins
Lipo 4300 (old 62 4:00) New 63 4:01.27 Jeff Helms

As you can see the LIPO 4300 class is almost exactly one lap slower than the 4 cell OPEN mod..and the drivers running it still feel the balance with the lighter Lipo still isn't quite right...

Joe ,
I understand everything your doing for the area and the tour but I deam it unfar to make everyone run the Novak equipment or sphere, but nothing else is unfar, I for one do not agree with this decision and or the BRL's little series. I believe that everone knows that there are other manufactures coming out with theirs as well, I here others stateing why make this a motor or speed controller of the week or month when Novak themselves is making diffrent and better motors or sensored and sensorless. How can that be fair . But I guess if your given the equipment to test and use I guess that's fine as well. If the tour and area tracks go to this style of rules racers will quit racing and that is a fact stated by severial drivers not only myself. My opinion and fellings . BRLs "LITTLE SERIES" attracted more racers than any other "series" I have heard of last year. I also beleive that racers that want to race will just have to change their thinking and we will probably gain two- three racers for everyone like you that decides to quit. "Other manufactures coming out with theirs" are way behind the curve and most seem to be aiming for the larger "bashers" market. NOVAK is the leader and IMO we should stick with them and all their efforts at providing Oval racers with what they need. Ralf

RIGHT ON Ralf.

Am excited about new motor testing, any testing done last weekend? Thanks Ralf

Ralf,

I was hoping to get to the Carpet track down in Southern Cal this weekend, but I'm not feeling too well the last couple days...and it's a 4+ hour drive - so I'm not going to make it.

I'm excited to see what these new motors will do too - plus I had a car ready to try out the 17.5 motor on 4 cell.

Next weekend I have a VELODROME race - and probably won't get to test these new motors because I'm planning to do some testing w/ the 10.5 and the LIPO for our Mod class...plus I don't think I have enough GEARS to get tall enough for the 'drome w/ the NEW motor...(I only go to 88/55 so far, which may be ok w/ the caps)

swtour,

I plan to try lipo with a 4300 on a 300" asphalt oval next weekend running foams. Can you give me any idea of gearing for the lipo compared to 4-cell. Obviously, I know where the 4 cell sould be geared but I'm looking for any relative information that you found in testing.

Many thanks!

Al Spina Fan,
We have been running the Lipo/4300 for few months now. We have ran on a 300' flat asphalt track our rollout has been around 2.35-2.45 just depends on how free your car is. But I would start with 2.40 and go from there. On the same track with 4-cell 4300 we rollout right @ 3.50
Hope this helps! You will love it once you try it ;)

Raymond

Raymond,

Thanks for the help. We were @ 3.40 so your numbers look right in the ballpark. I'll let you know how it goes when I blow by Phil Marabella.......lol

Peter Coll

Peter were are planing on running ????????????????????????

Peter,

Raymond is the one I would have had you ask that question....and he got to it before I did...

He's been wheeling his Lipo powered 4300 around that RCSM track and the track up in Flagstaff AZ...and he don't let the grass grow...cause he's usually doing battle w/ HUMPTY~

Peter were are planing on running ????????????????????????

Heading West George for business in Arizona and LA.

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6.6 vs a little closer to what we run. Has anyone tried the A123 batteries?

Oh they can be fast charged in about 15 mins! 10 amp charging!

I totally agree Jimmy but noone wants to here it!

much better cell than the current lipo's!

they also cool as they are charging

I've been read , 1 guy has run 180+ runs on a Traxxas Rustler at 30+amps ave for the whole run. He runs the battery until it is dead DRT then recharges at 10 amps.....wow

I'm ordering a few packs , I will post what happens....May be BOOM or ZOOM but it should be fun either way!

jimmy, personally I was looking at the A123's, and liked some/most of what I saw.

One of our guys ran a few speed runs at our Velodrome with them last year...

I'm really liking what I'm seeing from the 3200 Peak/Orion (KOKAM) Lipos too however.
The 3200 packs can be had for roughly $80.00 depending on who has them and when.

A123 at $59.95(2 cell packs with equalizer cable) or $19.95 each cell plus a $1.00 for a equalizer cable per pack.


How long does it take to charge the 3200 Lipos? What rate?

one of the things I liked about the A123's is their ability to make a 2 cell saddle pack.

It seems to me the price was a bit higher than that when I originally looked at them...but since Horizon is selling them....you can get them for a great price, and the FASTER charging makes them cool.

recharge time on the 3200 depends on what level charger you have...several of the guys have a pretty cheap charger...I believe they were taking close to an hour...where the faster chargers I think were taking around 1/2 hour. If I remember the numbers correctly, the get back to about 90% in close to 20 minutes.

The pack for $59.95 is only a 2300 mAh. So, you would have to buy the 4600 mAh battery at $119.95, making the cost close to the Peak/ Orion 4800 mAh. Interesting though. Here (http://www.bigerc.com/) are some specs for 2 different LiIon cells.